It sounds like the decision was reasonable at the time, and the demand went beyond the forecast.
That's why dealers paid people to sleep on the street? Because forecasted demand told them there was plenty to go around? Nope that doesn't make sense.
<< <i>It sounds like the decision was reasonable at the time, and the demand went beyond the forecast.
That's why dealers paid people to sleep on the street? Because forecasted demand told them there was plenty to go around? Nope that doesn't make sense. >>
The ANA (implicitly) made a forecast (of the line length).
The dealers acted to create the actual line length. Presumably based on their own forecast of what they could make in reselling the coins. So the dealer forecast differed from the implicit ANA one.
Tell you what. Get a picture from the bourse floor of a single CONFIRMED gang member, and I'll send you $100. I want a picture from the floor matched with a mug shot of the same person.
<< <i>Tell you what. Get a picture from the bourse floor of a single CONFIRMED gang member, and I'll send you $100. I want a picture from the floor matched with a mug shot of the same person. >>
<< <i>What happened to being on the US Mint mailing list and being a US Mint customer? Period. The demand here is GREED and flipping coins and that is the problem. Period. Deep pockets and the TPGs Inserts only create an illusion that makes it worse for all. >>
Will PCGS be offering, "First Strike" label inserts for these? >>
<< <i>Based on what I heard some of the line standees were paid to wait in line each day... and most of them waited on two or three different days... I wonder of those big buyers will be issuing the required Form-1099s to those who were paid to wait? >>
Just hire illegals and you don't have to do any paperwork!! LOL.
<< <i>And yet, I can almost guarantee that Laura will continue to do business with KL. He makes coins that she wants/needs for her customers. I don't see anything wrong with what Kevin did. But then again, I'm a proud capitalist and I sat in line for 3 days without sleeping and wound up getting 16 coins. >>
@TAMU15: More power to you. If I sat in line for 3 days I would hope for a little butter on my bread too. Did those 16 coins bring close to $50k?
<< <i> First of all, no one was trampled at the ANA show. That took place in Denver, at the Mint.
Greg >>
Greg, I really appreciate you posting here so thanks for that. But your statement that no one was trampled at the ANA show is false. People were lined up across the street from the convention center on early Wednesday morning because of a statement posted by the ANA Tuesday evening that no one would be allowed to line up until 6am Wednesday... which was unrealistic. I joined that line around midnight and was probably 75th or 80th in line. By 2am the line grew substantially and those near the back of the line chose not to respect that unofficial line and crowded toward the front. By 2:20am or so, the unofficial line across the street became a bit unruly and the police decided to make it orderly by moving it across the street to the side of the convention center. At that time, all hell broke loose and the entire crowd pretty much ran across the street and there was quite a bit of pushing and shoving and people were indeed knocked to the ground. Everyone was pushing their way to the front of the new line. I saw it. The forum member that I was with at the time saw it. The police tried to keep order and threatened force, but there were just not enough police. Instead of sending the cutters to the back of the new line, they squeezed them in and the rest of the line was pushed back. I did not see the extent of any injuries, but when the line was reformed by the police (I was now back to around 350th in line) we saw an ambulance arrive towards the front of the new line around 2:45am. Perhaps the ANA was not provided the information as it appeared no one from the ANA or the Mint were present from midnight to 3am or so.
Further, I do not have any first hand account of the reported robberies, but from what I heard from those in line that evening is that people were leaving line between 2am-6am to use restrooms at nearby hotels and business that were open and that the incidents took place outside of the convention center in the early morning.
<< <i> First of all, no one was trampled at the ANA show. That took place in Denver, at the Mint.
Greg >>
Greg, I really appreciate you posting here so thanks for that. But your statement that no one was trampled at the ANA show is false. People were lined up across the street from the convention center on early Wednesday morning because of a statement posted by the ANA Tuesday evening that no one would be allowed to line up until 6am Wednesday... which was unrealistic. I joined that line around midnight and was probably 75th or 80th in line. By 2am the line grew substantially and those near the back of the line chose not to respect that unofficial line and crowded toward the front. By 2:20am or so, the unofficial line across the street became a bit unruly and the police decided to make it orderly by moving it across the street to the side of the convention center. At that time, all hell broke loose and the entire crowd pretty much ran across the street and there was quite a bit of pushing and shoving and people were indeed knocked to the ground. Everyone was pushing their way to the front of the new line. I saw it. The forum member that I was with at the time saw it. The police tried to keep order and threatened force, but there were just not enough police. Instead of sending the cutters to the back of the new line, they squeezed them in and the rest of the line was pushed back. I did not see the extent of any injuries, but when the line was reformed by the police (I was now back to around 350th in line) we saw an ambulance arrive towards the front of the new line around 2:45am. Perhaps the ANA was not provided the information as it appeared no one from the ANA or the Mint were present from midnight to 3am or so.
Further, I do not have any first hand account of the reported robberies, but from what I heard from those in line that evening is that people were leaving line between 2am-6am to use restrooms at nearby hotels and business that were open and that the incidents took place outside of the convention center in the early morning. >>
Good to hear your first-hand account Mike. I wasn't there, but I've waited in other all night lines in the past. Those were all very orderly and uneventful so I'd like to think there are some lessons that can be had to make this more successful in the future.
<< <i>In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
What a joke you are. The TPG's are to blame for good marketing? Their job is to sell stuff. Your job was to provide order and security. Maybe they should boycott all future ANA shows. I'd bet you'd pay them to attend in that case.
Next you'll be blaming Apple for creating demand for iPhones and McD's for Big Macs. >>
What the TPGs did by offering a "Early Release" or "First Strike" label (I don't know specifically what the term was, because I honestly couldn't care less about it.) is creating false demand for something that is otherwise nothing special. There is no promise that the coins sold on Tuesday were the first struck... they were just the first sold. For all intents and purposes, they are the same coins people can buy via the Mint website. It's Tulip mania all over (if you don't get the reference, look up "Tulip mania" on Wikipedia).
While I can appreciate registry sets of historic coins, it's just another marketing gimmick for modern coins where the vast majority are MS-68 and above. The fact that anyone wants an MS-70 anything which was minted in the last 15-20 years is beyond me. All you are doing is paying multiple times the cost of a slightly inferior coin which 9 out of 10 people could not tell the difference between.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i>Greg, I really appreciate you posting here so thanks for that. But your statement that no one was trampled at the ANA show is false. [...] By 2:20am or so, the unofficial line across the street became a bit unruly and the police decided to make it orderly by moving it across the street to the side of the convention center. At that time, all hell broke loose and the entire crowd pretty much ran across the street and there was quite a bit of pushing and shoving and people were indeed knocked to the ground. >>
You are not going to like my answer, but the ANA is not responsible for providing security outside of the convention center.
It's just like some people who think the ANA should pay for police presence in every hotel in Rosemont during the convention. We have a responsibility for security at our show, but not outside the building. There was an incident at one of the hotels in recent years where someone's safe was emptied out while they were not in their room. They asked the ANA to compensate them. Obviously, we did not. That's a matter between that individual and that hotel.
Anything outside the convention center is the responsibility of the Rosemont Police Department.
<< <i>Further, I do not have any first hand account of the reported robberies, but from what I heard from those in line that evening is that people were leaving line between 2am-6am to use restrooms at nearby hotels and business that were open and that the incidents took place outside of the convention center in the early morning. >>
Again, all I know is that -- per the Rosemont Chief of Police -- there were no reported robberies. If someone WAS robbed, why they would not report it is beyond me.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i>In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
What a joke you are. The TPG's are to blame for good marketing? Their job is to sell stuff. Your job was to provide order and security. Maybe they should boycott all future ANA shows. I'd bet you'd pay them to attend in that case.
Next you'll be blaming Apple for creating demand for iPhones and McD's for Big Macs. >>
What the TPGs did by offering a "Early Release" or "First Strike" label (I don't know specifically what the term was, because I honestly couldn't care less about it.) is creating false demand for something that is otherwise nothing special. There is no promise that the coins sold on Tuesday were the first struck... they were just the first sold. For all intents and purposes, they are the same coins people can buy via the Mint website. It's Tulip mania all over (if you don't get the reference, look up "Tulip mania" on Wikipedia).
While I can appreciate registry sets of historic coins, it's just another marketing gimmick for modern coins where the vast majority are MS-68 and above. The fact that anyone wants an MS-70 anything which was minted in the last 15-20 years is beyond me. All you are doing is paying multiple times the cost of a slightly inferior coin which 9 out of 10 people could not tell the difference between.
Greg >>
So you are blaming the TPG's for having successful marketing plans that you don't agree with? I can't believe what I have heard from 2 ANA Board members this weekend. Sickening. No wonder your membership is dwindling. A fish rots from the head. You can look that up on Wikipedia
<< <i>So you are blaming the TPG's for having successful marketing plans that you don't agree with? I can't believe what I have heard from 2 ANA Board members this weekend. Sickening. No wonder your membership is dwindling. A fish rots from the head. You can look that up on Wikipedia >>
Let me ask you two questions...
1) If I cracked that slab open and put the raw coin next to any other sold Kennedy gold, would you be able to tell the difference?
2) If not, why would anyone pay more than $1240 for it? (Or perhaps a little higher as it was an MS-70?)
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i>And yet, I can almost guarantee that Laura will continue to do business with KL. He makes coins that she wants/needs for her customers. I don't see anything wrong with what Kevin did. But then again, I'm a proud capitalist and I sat in line for 3 days without sleeping and wound up getting 16 coins. >>
@TAMU15: More power to you. If I sat in line for 3 days I would hope for a little butter on my bread too. Did those 16 coins bring close to $50k?
>>
Not quite, prices varied day to day and unfortunately the day I got 10 coins, I sold them for 23000 (which was 3000 over nearly all other bids that day). I had a partner who fronted me the money and half the profits went to him but I netted nearly enough to pay for my next semester of college. It was a great experience for me and will certainly be one I remember for the rest of my life.
<< <i>So you are blaming the TPG's for having successful marketing plans that you don't agree with? I can't believe what I have heard from 2 ANA Board members this weekend. Sickening. No wonder your membership is dwindling. A fish rots from the head. You can look that up on Wikipedia >>
Let me ask you two questions...
1) If I cracked that slab open and put the raw coin next to any other sold Kennedy gold, would you be able to tell the difference?
2) If not, why would anyone pay more than $1240 for it? (Or perhaps a little higher as it was an MS-70?)
Greg >>
It doesn't matter if I can. A grader would. That's their business plan. That's their marketing plan. It's been their plan for years. You knew what the plan was before this show. You (ANA) did not prepare and plan. I can't believe and acting ANA Board member would criticize the TPG's marketing plans
I really don't think so. If you resubmitted the 1st coin sold as a raw coin, it will come back MS-70 (or MS-69) with no other distinguishing attributes.
And any comments I may make are made by me, as me -- not by me as an ANA Board member.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
Even though I've never met or talked to Laura personally, 9 times out of 10 I can't stand her and her ramblings.
This is that rare time when I fully agree with her. Frankly, I'm about sick of hearing about these Kennedys. Can't wait for the hype to die down and there be one, MAYBE two active threads here regarding them. Last time I looked almost half the topics on the 1st page were Kennedy related.....
WTB: Eric Plunk cards, jersey (signed or unsigned), and autographs. Basically anything related to him
By 2:20am or so, the unofficial line across the street became a bit unruly and the police decided to make it orderly by moving it across the street to the side of the convention center. At that time, all hell broke loose and the entire crowd pretty much ran across the street and there was quite a bit of pushing and shoving and people were indeed knocked to the ground. Everyone was pushing their way to the front of the new line. I saw it. The forum member that I was with at the time saw it. The police tried to keep order and threatened force, but there were just not enough police. Instead of sending the cutters to the back of the new line, they squeezed them in and the rest of the line was pushed back. I did not see the extent of any injuries, but when the line was reformed by the police (I was now back to around 350th in line) we saw an ambulance arrive towards the front of the new line around 2:45am.
I was awoken by the sirens and bullhorn at 2:20 ... from the third floor of a hotel across from the convention center River Street was full of people running in what looked like a very chaotic, out of control scene- at first I thought a riot was in progress as there appeared to be several hundred people running around the street with the police greatly out numbered. Eventually some of the at least 8 police cars I counted were going around and around in a circle on River Road in what looked like an attempt to keep people out of the street; they were also repeatedly telling people via a bull horn to get out of the street. A bit later the scene looked like this- you can still see some people in the street along the convention center sidewalk- but again about 10 minutes earlier, the street was filled with people running. [/URL][/IMG] A few of the police cars that were there are no in the picture (Picture courtesy of another dealer).
You are not going to like my answer, but the ANA is not responsible for providing security outside of the convention center.
This may explain why I, a registered dealer with a ribbon hanging from my ANA dealer ID, had great difficulty getting into the the convention center at 8 am on Tuesday. There were 5 or more rows deep of non-dealer people blocking the entrance to the convention center, and there was NO SECURITY outside to control the crowd and help the dealers gain access to the convention center- it was chaos. It took me about 10 minutes to try to navigate through the crowd that did not want to let me through to get to the door to enter- there was security inside the convention center to let credentialed people in, but again you were on your own to deal with the crowd outside.
<< <i>I would love to meet the grader that can tell the difference between one of these sold at the ANA show and one bought online. >>
They can't but that's hardly relevant since none were sold online in time to make it to the show. Being documented as being sold at the show or one of the Mint outlets is sufficient to warrant being labeled as such.
Great photo. Initially, the cops had said they would move everyone across the street at 6:00 a.m. They also did a good job by kicking all the people that tried to crash the line by moving directly to the front on the grass.
I actually thought things would be OK and orderly. I think the issue was the line was forming down the sidewalk heading eventually directly into the Embassy parking garage.
It was in and around this time that the cops announced on the loudspeaker
"Everybody run across the street"...300+ people at that point that had previously been comfy cozy either sleeping or simply standing there started a stampede. Wagons chairs people all running a sprint to the street.
Looking back, I suppose it could have been "Everybody Walk <<don't>> run or it could have been Everybody "come" across the street"...but what I heard was Everybody run across the street" and then a stampede started...
this was followed by "Everybody Run to the squad Car in the middle of the Street"...
Then it was "OK everybody stop"....
Then it was "OK, who was first in line???"
Probably 50 hands went up and I thought, great these guys have no idea what they're doing...
Then it was "OK everybody form the line over there" hurry up, Go Go Go"....I was with Mike Kittle the entire time and we went from approx. 80 in line to 350+ by the time they ran everybody down the sidewalk and around the corner...
In any event, that's my recollection of how it went down and I wouldn't blame the crowd for that, half of which were asleep.
<< <i>I would love to meet the grader that can tell the difference between one of these sold at the ANA show and one bought online. >>
They can't but that's hardly relevant since none were sold online in time to make it to the show. Being documented as being sold at the show or one of the Mint outlets is sufficient to warrant being labeled as such. >>
dbcoin claimed the graders can tell the difference by looking at the coin alone. I want to know who these graders are.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
<< <i>I would love to meet the grader that can tell the difference between one of these sold at the ANA show and one bought online. >>
They can't but that's hardly relevant since none were sold online in time to make it to the show. Being documented as being sold at the show or one of the Mint outlets is sufficient to warrant being labeled as such. >>
dbcoin claimed the graders can tell the difference by looking at the coin alone. I want to know who these graders are. >>
no I didn't grampa. I said they could tell the difference between a 69 and 70. that was the post I was responding to.
<< <i>There was a robbery in one of the bathrooms in Chicago, and known gang members roaming the bourse floor.
Weird, wild stuff. >>
There was no robbery at the show -- at least there was none that was reported to the police.
As for "gang members", I think there was some stereotyping going on...
Greg >>
I don't know first-hand; a member here posted that he knew the guy who was robbed (it was more like a pickpocket thing ... the coin was lifted when he was bumped in a bathroom; he eventually got the coin back).
Laura Sperber said in her report that the ANA was aware that KNOWN GANGS were on the bourse floor.
All I know is what I read in the forum ... >>
LOL, oh Laura. True, I may never be able to afford coins at a nosebleed level, but she shall ever be a source of amusement and bemusement for me, til the end of our days. LOL
I was there every day and didn't witness anything awful. HOWEVER, I believe the security risk and danger could be postponed to next year when the real criminal elements have gotten a chance to put their ducks in a row.
"What are you interested in?" "Nothing." "Me neither!"
<< <i>dbcoin, I can't fathom why you continue to defend what happened. Even the instigators are sorry that it happened the way it did.
The only thing I can deduce is that you are just someone who likes to stir the pot. >>
I am not defending it. I don't like it either. I just don't see it as that big of a deal. Someone hired some actors and due to poor planning by the ANA it got out of hand. Big deal. There weren't roaming gangs (that's a racist remark BTW). The ANA screwed up, plain and simple and they are seeking to push the blame on anyone other than themselves.
I don't understand why you guys are so grumpy over everything. Don't you have some kids to chase off your lawn?
<< <i>People with dyslexia reverse or mix up letters visually. They get things backwards in other words. Buying the slab or label instead of the coin is getting things backwards.
I thought it was a clever joke on her part , that appears to have sailed over a few heads . Some coin weenies might be too literal minded to actually recognize a joke . >>
I guess you're right but what does "dislexic" mean? (Her actual word) Maybe that is why it sailed over so many heads.
I'm speechless.Was that picture taken about the time when gem '38-D Buffalo Nickels were selling for about $10 apiece?
If a picture wasn't going very well I'd put a puppy dog in it, always a mongrel, you know, never one of the full bred puppies. And then I'd put a bandage on its foot... I liked it when I did it, but now I'm sick of it.
Norman Rockwell
<< <i>I bought 10 ANA memberships /pre registered for church members so they could stand I line to buy the gold kennedys >>
Why? >>
The Show rules quoted by someone at ANA said you needed to have a membership and be preregistered in order to enter the ANA Show to purchase the gold kennedys..... you can say I was chumped after hearing others do not do the same >>
I would ask for a refund. Immediately. >>
I would say that trying to game the system in such a way....gets you what you deserve and I hope it's a negative.
<< <i>I'd be interested to know if during the ANA Board meetings she voiced any objection to the process of distribution when this was discussed? Whether it was discussed at all and whether the earlier distribution issues (with the Reverse Proof Buffalo's) was even a consideration.
If the ANA just let the Mint do anything they wanted, that's a problem. >>
The ANA Board did not have any official discussions over the sale process, just some emails among the group.
As I've stated in other threads, we DID NOT allow the Mint to do whatever they wanted. Originally, their plan was to announce that the coins were going on sale at some point during the show. There would have been a stampede, people would have been hurt. We stopped that from happening (with the help of the Rosemont Fire Marshall) once we heard of that idea.
On the other hand... if we did not allow the sale of these coins from the start and the Mint said "We wanted to sell at the ANA convention, but they wouldn't let us...", there would be just as many complaints saying the ANA is to blame.
Greg >>
Another example, IMHO, of "real leadership" here by Gov. Lyons.
Laura for ANA President and she should pick her own slate to run with her for each Board position.
<< <i>I will most likely never attend an ANA show in the future as people were actually getting trampled on. I have also canceled my membership. If they can not control a coin show properly and at some point actually condoned these actions I do not want to be part of it. >>
First of all, no one was trampled at the ANA show. That took place in Denver, at the Mint.
In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
From all reports, the crowd control at the ANA show was FAR better than what was done at any of the retail locations. Yes, there were some inconveniences on the floor, but there was no public safety threat.
The ANA Board made the decision to stop sales at the ANA show once the Mint decided to stop sales at other locations. There was a large burden on our staff to assist with the crowds and the decision was made that if the Mint isn't going to put up with the hassle of selling them, we surely weren't going to either -- even though the Mint was planning on continuing to sell them.
Greg >>
What a courageous decision! <smirk> "the blame here goes to the grading services...and the dealers who hype that label." <The ANA Board, excluding Laura, IMHO is more of a joke than Obama and Congress>
<< <i>In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
What a joke you are. The TPG's are to blame for good marketing? Their job is to sell stuff. Your job was to provide order and security. Maybe they should boycott all future ANA shows. I'd bet you'd pay them to attend in that case.
Next you'll be blaming Apple for creating demand for iPhones and McD's for Big Macs. >>
Remember this when the next election is here for ANA Governors and this individual wants your vote.
To say someone should have forseen the events that occurred is a step beyond reasonable. The BBHOF event had just recently occurred & I do not remember hearing of things happening there like they did during ANA. After all the mint has been selling new release coins at events for quite some time. Based on the history of recent mint releases & the price of the Kennedy coin (which would price out quite a few people) I think it is reasonable to have expected a modest, but generally orderly crowd. (I'm talking day 1)
Any unruly behavior outside of the ANA I blame on 3 groups; 1. The police. 2. ANA 3. Dealers
1. One would really need to have more information to properly access proportional blame, but whenever there is a large, potentially unruly crowd & there are uniformed police officers present in some amount then one would expect the police to access the situation & take whatever steps are necessary to maintain calm. A uniformed police officer is THE authority figure in this type of situation & public safety is one of their responsibilities.
2. An event planner is responsible for the people in their event BUT they are also responsible for people trying to get into their event. Responsibility for people attending an event does not start when they cross the opening gate, especially if they are having to line up outside of the event to get in. Event planners may not be able to say who was first & who was 500th in line, but the can close the gates & say no one is getting in until there is some order.
3. IMO the majority of the blame goes to the dealers who brought people in & incentivized the crowd into an unruly state. Specifically the 2nd part. Because paying someone to buy a coin for you may be against the spirit of the "household limit" rule, but it not against the rules. (My opinion) BUT whipping up a crowd into an unruly state, especially a crowd that has ben incentivized & sees you as "the boss", is wrong & (My opinion) that person could likely be held financially responsible for any damage to persons or property & any added security that might have been required due to their actions. (Yelling fire in a theater).
Again, one would really need more information to "lay" blame. & I have only skimmed the forums (& likely only remember 1/2 of what I read).
Comments
<< <i>who said Laura? The Queen of hyperbole? >>
Oh, my gosh — YOU were there? I didn't know.
That's why dealers paid people to sleep on the street? Because forecasted demand told them there was plenty to go around? Nope that doesn't make sense.
<< <i>It sounds like the decision was reasonable at the time, and the demand went beyond the forecast.
That's why dealers paid people to sleep on the street? Because forecasted demand told them there was plenty to go around? Nope that doesn't make sense. >>
The ANA (implicitly) made a forecast (of the line length).
The dealers acted to create the actual line length.
Presumably based on their own forecast of what they could make in reselling the coins.
So the dealer forecast differed from the implicit ANA one.
<< <i>
<< <i>who said Laura? The Queen of hyperbole? >>
Oh, my gosh — YOU were there? I didn't know. >>
Tell you what. Get a picture from the bourse floor of a single CONFIRMED gang member, and I'll send you $100. I want a picture from the floor matched with a mug shot of the same person.
<< <i>Tell you what. Get a picture from the bourse floor of a single CONFIRMED gang member, and I'll send you $100. I want a picture from the floor matched with a mug shot of the same person. >>
Now I wish I would have gone.
Latin American Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>What happened to being on the US Mint mailing list and being a US Mint customer? Period. The demand here is GREED and flipping coins and that is the problem. Period. Deep pockets and the TPGs Inserts only create an illusion that makes it worse for all. >>
Will PCGS be offering, "First Strike" label inserts for these? >>
Most certainly.
<< <i>Based on what I heard some of the line standees were paid to wait in line each day... and most of them waited on two or three different days... I wonder of those big buyers will be issuing the required Form-1099s to those who were paid to wait?
Just hire illegals and you don't have to do any paperwork!! LOL.
<< <i>And yet, I can almost guarantee that Laura will continue to do business with KL. He makes coins that she wants/needs for her customers. I don't see anything wrong with what Kevin did. But then again, I'm a proud capitalist and I sat in line for 3 days without sleeping and wound up getting 16 coins. >>
@TAMU15: More power to you. If I sat in line for 3 days I would hope for a little butter on my bread too. Did those 16 coins bring close to $50k?
<< <i>
First of all, no one was trampled at the ANA show. That took place in Denver, at the Mint.
Greg >>
Greg, I really appreciate you posting here so thanks for that. But your statement that no one was trampled at the ANA show is false. People were lined up across the street from the convention center on early Wednesday morning because of a statement posted by the ANA Tuesday evening that no one would be allowed to line up until 6am Wednesday... which was unrealistic. I joined that line around midnight and was probably 75th or 80th in line. By 2am the line grew substantially and those near the back of the line chose not to respect that unofficial line and crowded toward the front. By 2:20am or so, the unofficial line across the street became a bit unruly and the police decided to make it orderly by moving it across the street to the side of the convention center. At that time, all hell broke loose and the entire crowd pretty much ran across the street and there was quite a bit of pushing and shoving and people were indeed knocked to the ground. Everyone was pushing their way to the front of the new line. I saw it. The forum member that I was with at the time saw it. The police tried to keep order and threatened force, but there were just not enough police. Instead of sending the cutters to the back of the new line, they squeezed them in and the rest of the line was pushed back. I did not see the extent of any injuries, but when the line was reformed by the police (I was now back to around 350th in line) we saw an ambulance arrive towards the front of the new line around 2:45am. Perhaps the ANA was not provided the information as it appeared no one from the ANA or the Mint were present from midnight to 3am or so.
Further, I do not have any first hand account of the reported robberies, but from what I heard from those in line that evening is that people were leaving line between 2am-6am to use restrooms at nearby hotels and business that were open and that the incidents took place outside of the convention center in the early morning.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>
<< <i>
First of all, no one was trampled at the ANA show. That took place in Denver, at the Mint.
Greg >>
Greg, I really appreciate you posting here so thanks for that. But your statement that no one was trampled at the ANA show is false. People were lined up across the street from the convention center on early Wednesday morning because of a statement posted by the ANA Tuesday evening that no one would be allowed to line up until 6am Wednesday... which was unrealistic. I joined that line around midnight and was probably 75th or 80th in line. By 2am the line grew substantially and those near the back of the line chose not to respect that unofficial line and crowded toward the front. By 2:20am or so, the unofficial line across the street became a bit unruly and the police decided to make it orderly by moving it across the street to the side of the convention center. At that time, all hell broke loose and the entire crowd pretty much ran across the street and there was quite a bit of pushing and shoving and people were indeed knocked to the ground. Everyone was pushing their way to the front of the new line. I saw it. The forum member that I was with at the time saw it. The police tried to keep order and threatened force, but there were just not enough police. Instead of sending the cutters to the back of the new line, they squeezed them in and the rest of the line was pushed back. I did not see the extent of any injuries, but when the line was reformed by the police (I was now back to around 350th in line) we saw an ambulance arrive towards the front of the new line around 2:45am. Perhaps the ANA was not provided the information as it appeared no one from the ANA or the Mint were present from midnight to 3am or so.
Further, I do not have any first hand account of the reported robberies, but from what I heard from those in line that evening is that people were leaving line between 2am-6am to use restrooms at nearby hotels and business that were open and that the incidents took place outside of the convention center in the early morning. >>
Good to hear your first-hand account Mike. I wasn't there, but I've waited in other all night lines in the past. Those were all very orderly and uneventful so I'd like to think there are some lessons that can be had to make this more successful in the future.
This is clearly on the ANA, it is their show period. Have better rules and enforce them or don't have promotions you can not handle.
<< <i>In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
What a joke you are. The TPG's are to blame for good marketing? Their job is to sell stuff. Your job was to provide order and security. Maybe they should boycott all future ANA shows. I'd bet you'd pay them to attend in that case.
Next you'll be blaming Apple for creating demand for iPhones and McD's for Big Macs. >>
What the TPGs did by offering a "Early Release" or "First Strike" label (I don't know specifically what the term was, because I honestly couldn't care less about it.) is creating false demand for something that is otherwise nothing special. There is no promise that the coins sold on Tuesday were the first struck... they were just the first sold. For all intents and purposes, they are the same coins people can buy via the Mint website. It's Tulip mania all over (if you don't get the reference, look up "Tulip mania" on Wikipedia).
While I can appreciate registry sets of historic coins, it's just another marketing gimmick for modern coins where the vast majority are MS-68 and above. The fact that anyone wants an MS-70 anything which was minted in the last 15-20 years is beyond me. All you are doing is paying multiple times the cost of a slightly inferior coin which 9 out of 10 people could not tell the difference between.
Greg
<< <i>Greg, I really appreciate you posting here so thanks for that. But your statement that no one was trampled at the ANA show is false. [...] By 2:20am or so, the unofficial line across the street became a bit unruly and the police decided to make it orderly by moving it across the street to the side of the convention center. At that time, all hell broke loose and the entire crowd pretty much ran across the street and there was quite a bit of pushing and shoving and people were indeed knocked to the ground. >>
You are not going to like my answer, but the ANA is not responsible for providing security outside of the convention center.
It's just like some people who think the ANA should pay for police presence in every hotel in Rosemont during the convention. We have a responsibility for security at our show, but not outside the building. There was an incident at one of the hotels in recent years where someone's safe was emptied out while they were not in their room. They asked the ANA to compensate them. Obviously, we did not. That's a matter between that individual and that hotel.
Anything outside the convention center is the responsibility of the Rosemont Police Department.
<< <i>Further, I do not have any first hand account of the reported robberies, but from what I heard from those in line that evening is that people were leaving line between 2am-6am to use restrooms at nearby hotels and business that were open and that the incidents took place outside of the convention center in the early morning. >>
Again, all I know is that -- per the Rosemont Chief of Police -- there were no reported robberies. If someone WAS robbed, why they would not report it is beyond me.
Greg
<< <i>
<< <i>In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
What a joke you are. The TPG's are to blame for good marketing? Their job is to sell stuff. Your job was to provide order and security. Maybe they should boycott all future ANA shows. I'd bet you'd pay them to attend in that case.
Next you'll be blaming Apple for creating demand for iPhones and McD's for Big Macs. >>
What the TPGs did by offering a "Early Release" or "First Strike" label (I don't know specifically what the term was, because I honestly couldn't care less about it.) is creating false demand for something that is otherwise nothing special. There is no promise that the coins sold on Tuesday were the first struck... they were just the first sold. For all intents and purposes, they are the same coins people can buy via the Mint website. It's Tulip mania all over (if you don't get the reference, look up "Tulip mania" on Wikipedia).
While I can appreciate registry sets of historic coins, it's just another marketing gimmick for modern coins where the vast majority are MS-68 and above. The fact that anyone wants an MS-70 anything which was minted in the last 15-20 years is beyond me. All you are doing is paying multiple times the cost of a slightly inferior coin which 9 out of 10 people could not tell the difference between.
Greg >>
So you are blaming the TPG's for having successful marketing plans that you don't agree with? I can't believe what I have heard from 2 ANA Board members this weekend. Sickening. No wonder your membership is dwindling. A fish rots from the head. You can look that up on Wikipedia
<< <i>So you are blaming the TPG's for having successful marketing plans that you don't agree with? I can't believe what I have heard from 2 ANA Board members this weekend. Sickening. No wonder your membership is dwindling. A fish rots from the head. You can look that up on Wikipedia >>
Let me ask you two questions...
1) If I cracked that slab open and put the raw coin next to any other sold Kennedy gold, would you be able to tell the difference?
2) If not, why would anyone pay more than $1240 for it? (Or perhaps a little higher as it was an MS-70?)
Greg
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<< <i>And yet, I can almost guarantee that Laura will continue to do business with KL. He makes coins that she wants/needs for her customers. I don't see anything wrong with what Kevin did. But then again, I'm a proud capitalist and I sat in line for 3 days without sleeping and wound up getting 16 coins. >>
@TAMU15: More power to you. If I sat in line for 3 days I would hope for a little butter on my bread too. Did those 16 coins bring close to $50k?
Not quite, prices varied day to day and unfortunately the day I got 10 coins, I sold them for 23000 (which was 3000 over nearly all other bids that day). I had a partner who fronted me the money and half the profits went to him but I netted nearly enough to pay for my next semester of college. It was a great experience for me and will certainly be one I remember for the rest of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>So you are blaming the TPG's for having successful marketing plans that you don't agree with? I can't believe what I have heard from 2 ANA Board members this weekend. Sickening. No wonder your membership is dwindling. A fish rots from the head. You can look that up on Wikipedia >>
Let me ask you two questions...
1) If I cracked that slab open and put the raw coin next to any other sold Kennedy gold, would you be able to tell the difference?
2) If not, why would anyone pay more than $1240 for it? (Or perhaps a little higher as it was an MS-70?)
Greg >>
It doesn't matter if I can. A grader would. That's their business plan. That's their marketing plan. It's been their plan for years. You knew what the plan was before this show. You (ANA) did not prepare and plan. I can't believe and acting ANA Board member would criticize the TPG's marketing plans
<< <i> A grader would. >>
I really don't think so. If you resubmitted the 1st coin sold as a raw coin, it will come back MS-70 (or MS-69) with no other distinguishing attributes.
And any comments I may make are made by me, as me -- not by me as an ANA Board member.
Greg
<< <i>Some of the comments within these Kennedy threads are more despicable than the event itself. >>
While it is hard to believe possible, but I agree.
<< <i>ANA response sounds like "nothing to see here, move along."
This is clearly on the ANA, it is their show period. Have better rules and enforce them or don't have promotions you can not handle. >>
This was the Last ANA Show that kicks off a new Mint coin ANA talks out of their rear end ..why bother listening to what they are saying
ANA acts like a bunch of government hacks.. working for the City of Chicago patronage system..at least the Show is history
This is that rare time when I fully agree with her. Frankly, I'm about sick of hearing about these Kennedys. Can't wait for the hype to die down and there be one, MAYBE two active threads here regarding them. Last time I looked almost half the topics on the 1st page were Kennedy related.....
Positive BST: WhiteThunder (x2), Ajaan, onefasttalon, mirabela, Wizard1, cucamongacoin, mccardguy1
Negative BST: NONE!
I was awoken by the sirens and bullhorn at 2:20 ... from the third floor of a hotel across from the convention center River Street was full of people running in what looked like a very chaotic, out of control scene- at first I thought a riot was in progress as there appeared to be several hundred people running around the street with the police greatly out numbered. Eventually some of the at least 8 police cars I counted were going around and around in a circle on River Road in what looked like an attempt to keep people out of the street; they were also repeatedly telling people via a bull horn to get out of the street. A bit later the scene looked like this- you can still see some people in the street along the convention center sidewalk- but again about 10 minutes earlier, the street was filled with people running.
A few of the police cars that were there are no in the picture (Picture courtesy of another dealer).
You are not going to like my answer, but the ANA is not responsible for providing security outside of the convention center.
This may explain why I, a registered dealer with a ribbon hanging from my ANA dealer ID, had great difficulty getting into the the convention center at 8 am on Tuesday. There were 5 or more rows deep of non-dealer people blocking the entrance to the convention center, and there was NO SECURITY outside to control the crowd and help the dealers gain access to the convention center- it was chaos. It took me about 10 minutes to try to navigate through the crowd that did not want to let me through to get to the door to enter- there was security inside the convention center to let credentialed people in, but again you were on your own to deal with the crowd outside.
<< <i>I would love to meet the grader that can tell the difference between one of these sold at the ANA show and one bought online. >>
They can't but that's hardly relevant since none were sold online in time to make it to the show. Being documented as being sold at the show or one of the Mint outlets is sufficient to warrant being labeled as such.
I actually thought things would be OK and orderly. I think the issue was the line was forming down the sidewalk heading eventually directly into the Embassy parking garage.
It was in and around this time that the cops announced on the loudspeaker
"Everybody run across the street"...300+ people at that point that had previously been comfy cozy either sleeping or simply standing there started a stampede. Wagons chairs people all running a sprint to the street.
Looking back, I suppose it could have been "Everybody Walk <<don't>> run or it could have been Everybody "come" across the street"...but what I heard was Everybody run across the street" and then a stampede started...
this was followed by "Everybody Run to the squad Car in the middle of the Street"...
Then it was "OK everybody stop"....
Then it was "OK, who was first in line???"
Probably 50 hands went up and I thought, great these guys have no idea what they're doing...
Then it was "OK everybody form the line over there" hurry up, Go Go Go"....I was with Mike Kittle the entire time and we went from approx. 80 in line to 350+ by the time they ran everybody down the sidewalk and around the corner...
In any event, that's my recollection of how it went down and I wouldn't blame the crowd for that, half of which were asleep.
<< <i>
<< <i>I would love to meet the grader that can tell the difference between one of these sold at the ANA show and one bought online. >>
They can't but that's hardly relevant since none were sold online in time to make it to the show. Being documented as being sold at the show or one of the Mint outlets is sufficient to warrant being labeled as such. >>
dbcoin claimed the graders can tell the difference by looking at the coin alone. I want to know who these graders are.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I would love to meet the grader that can tell the difference between one of these sold at the ANA show and one bought online. >>
They can't but that's hardly relevant since none were sold online in time to make it to the show. Being documented as being sold at the show or one of the Mint outlets is sufficient to warrant being labeled as such. >>
dbcoin claimed the graders can tell the difference by looking at the coin alone. I want to know who these graders are. >>
no I didn't grampa. I said they could tell the difference between a 69 and 70. that was the post I was responding to.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There was a robbery in one of the bathrooms in Chicago, and known gang members roaming the bourse floor.
Weird, wild stuff. >>
There was no robbery at the show -- at least there was none that was reported to the police.
As for "gang members", I think there was some stereotyping going on...
Greg >>
I don't know first-hand; a member here posted that he knew the guy who was robbed (it was more like a pickpocket thing ... the coin was lifted when he was bumped in a bathroom; he eventually got the coin back).
Laura Sperber said in her report that the ANA was aware that KNOWN GANGS were on the bourse floor.
All I know is what I read in the forum ... >>
LOL, oh Laura. True, I may never be able to afford coins at a nosebleed level, but she shall ever be a source of amusement and bemusement for me, til the end of our days.
The only thing I can deduce is that you are just someone who likes to stir the pot.
<< <i>dbcoin, I can't fathom why you continue to defend what happened. Even the instigators are sorry that it happened the way it did.
The only thing I can deduce is that you are just someone who likes to stir the pot. >>
I am not defending it. I don't like it either. I just don't see it as that big of a deal. Someone hired some actors and due to poor planning by the ANA it got out of hand. Big deal. There weren't roaming gangs (that's a racist remark BTW). The ANA screwed up, plain and simple and they are seeking to push the blame on anyone other than themselves.
I don't understand why you guys are so grumpy over everything. Don't you have some kids to chase off your lawn?
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>There weren't roaming gangs (that's a racist remark BTW). >>
How is "roaming gangs" a racist remark?
Uh Oh, when you run out of reasons to defend yourself, throw out the old race card.....
<< <i>
<< <i>There weren't roaming gangs (that's a racist remark BTW). >>
How is "roaming gangs" a racist remark?
Uh Oh, when you run out of reasons to defend yourself, throw out the old race card.....
If there were gang members on the bourse, post a pic with a pic of their mugshot. I'll send you $100. kids in hoodies aren't gang members.
<< <i>People with dyslexia reverse or mix up letters visually. They get things backwards in other words. Buying the slab or label instead of the coin is getting things backwards.
I thought it was a clever joke on her part , that appears to have sailed over a few heads . Some coin weenies might be too literal minded to actually recognize a joke .
I guess you're right but what does "dislexic" mean? (Her actual word) Maybe that is why it sailed over so many heads.
Comedy is hard.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There weren't roaming gangs (that's a racist remark BTW). >>
How is "roaming gangs" a racist remark?
Uh Oh, when you run out of reasons to defend yourself, throw out the old race card.....
If there were gang members on the bourse, post a pic with a pic of their mugshot. I'll send you $100. kids in hoodies aren't gang members. >>
Pay up
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There weren't roaming gangs (that's a racist remark BTW). >>
How is "roaming gangs" a racist remark?
Uh Oh, when you run out of reasons to defend yourself, throw out the old race card.....
If there were gang members on the bourse, post a pic with a pic of their mugshot. I'll send you $100. kids in hoodies aren't gang members. >>
Pay up
Priceless.
If a picture wasn't going very well I'd put a puppy dog in it, always a mongrel, you know, never one of the full bred puppies. And then I'd put a bandage on its foot... I liked it when I did it, but now I'm sick of it.
Norman Rockwell
<< <i>Read her rant, I think she is spot on. Disgraceful is the word she uses. I would agree. >>
Complete agreement with Laura and if a Board member were involved in such a scheme, they should be impeached.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I bought 10 ANA memberships /pre registered for church members so they could stand I line to buy the gold kennedys >>
Why? >>
The Show rules quoted by someone at ANA said you needed to have a membership and be preregistered in order to enter the ANA Show to purchase the gold kennedys..... you can say I was chumped after hearing others do not do the same >>
I would ask for a refund. Immediately. >>
I would say that trying to game the system in such a way....gets you what you deserve and I hope it's a negative.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd be interested to know if during the ANA Board meetings she voiced any objection to the process of distribution when this was discussed? Whether it was discussed at all and whether the earlier distribution issues (with the Reverse Proof Buffalo's) was even a consideration.
If the ANA just let the Mint do anything they wanted, that's a problem. >>
The ANA Board did not have any official discussions over the sale process, just some emails among the group.
As I've stated in other threads, we DID NOT allow the Mint to do whatever they wanted. Originally, their plan was to announce that the coins were going on sale at some point during the show. There would have been a stampede, people would have been hurt. We stopped that from happening (with the help of the Rosemont Fire Marshall) once we heard of that idea.
On the other hand... if we did not allow the sale of these coins from the start and the Mint said "We wanted to sell at the ANA convention, but they wouldn't let us...", there would be just as many complaints saying the ANA is to blame.
Greg >>
Another example, IMHO, of "real leadership" here by Gov. Lyons.
Laura for ANA President and she should pick her own slate to run with her for each Board position.
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<< <i>I will most likely never attend an ANA show in the future as people were actually getting trampled on. I have also canceled my membership. If they can not control a coin show properly and at some point actually condoned these actions I do not want to be part of it. >>
First of all, no one was trampled at the ANA show. That took place in Denver, at the Mint.
In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
From all reports, the crowd control at the ANA show was FAR better than what was done at any of the retail locations. Yes, there were some inconveniences on the floor, but there was no public safety threat.
The ANA Board made the decision to stop sales at the ANA show once the Mint decided to stop sales at other locations. There was a large burden on our staff to assist with the crowds and the decision was made that if the Mint isn't going to put up with the hassle of selling them, we surely weren't going to either -- even though the Mint was planning on continuing to sell them.
Greg >>
What a courageous decision! <smirk> "the blame here goes to the grading services...and the dealers who hype that label." <The ANA Board, excluding Laura, IMHO is more of a joke than Obama and Congress>
<< <i>In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
What a joke you are. The TPG's are to blame for good marketing? Their job is to sell stuff. Your job was to provide order and security. Maybe they should boycott all future ANA shows. I'd bet you'd pay them to attend in that case.
Next you'll be blaming Apple for creating demand for iPhones and McD's for Big Macs. >>
Remember this when the next election is here for ANA Governors and this individual wants your vote.
<< <i>I'm speechless.Was that picture taken about the time when gem '38-D Buffalo Nickels were selling for about $10 apiece? >>
I still have a bunch of those nickels in the OGH's @$10. each.
To say someone should have forseen the events that occurred is a step beyond reasonable. The BBHOF event had just recently occurred & I do not remember hearing of things happening there like they did during ANA. After all the mint has been selling new release coins at events for quite some time. Based on the history of recent mint releases & the price of the Kennedy coin (which would price out quite a few people) I think it is reasonable to have expected a modest, but generally orderly crowd. (I'm talking day 1)
Any unruly behavior outside of the ANA I blame on 3 groups; 1. The police. 2. ANA 3. Dealers
1. One would really need to have more information to properly access proportional blame, but whenever there is a large, potentially unruly crowd & there are uniformed police officers present in some amount then one would expect the police to access the situation & take whatever steps are necessary to maintain calm. A uniformed police officer is THE authority figure in this type of situation & public safety is one of their responsibilities.
2. An event planner is responsible for the people in their event BUT they are also responsible for people trying to get into their event. Responsibility for people attending an event does not start when they cross the opening gate, especially if they are having to line up outside of the event to get in. Event planners may not be able to say who was first & who was 500th in line, but the can close the gates & say no one is getting in until there is some order.
3. IMO the majority of the blame goes to the dealers who brought people in & incentivized the crowd into an unruly state. Specifically the 2nd part. Because paying someone to buy a coin for you may be against the spirit of the "household limit" rule, but it not against the rules. (My opinion) BUT whipping up a crowd into an unruly state, especially a crowd that has ben incentivized & sees you as "the boss", is wrong & (My opinion) that person could likely be held financially responsible for any damage to persons or property & any added security that might have been required due to their actions. (Yelling fire in a theater).
Again, one would really need more information to "lay" blame. & I have only skimmed the forums (& likely only remember 1/2 of what I read).