You guys definitely need us but in all reality we do not necessarily need you
first off to clarify --- ONCE AGAIN --- I am not a Coin Dealer. I am a collector who works for a Coin Dealer at a retail location and on the road at shows. that gives me a better perspective than most and I can tell you with all honesty that the collector bashing stories could fill entire threads, just from me, but what's to be gained by it??
if it makes you feel good or superior in believing that Dealers as a group are scum there isn't much I can do, nor can anyone else. tell me something positive and maybe we'll have something to talk about, something positive about people in general which I experience at the counter every day. the sour apples are easy to overlook.
<< <i>You guys definitely need us but in all reality we do not necessarily need you
first off to clarify --- ONCE AGAIN --- I am not a Coin Dealer. I am a collector who works for a Coin Dealer at a retail location and on the road at shows. that gives me a better perspective than most and I can tell you with all honesty that the collector bashing stories could fill entire threads, just from me, but what's to be gained by it??
if it makes you feel good or superior in believing that Dealers as a group are scum there isn't much I can do, nor can anyone else. tell me something positive and maybe we'll have something to talk about, something positive about people in general which I experience at the counter every day. the sour apples are easy to overlook. >>
I am not, and I don't think anyone here is saying that "All dealers are scum." The point is there are some very bad actors out there, like the one who switched the coin on shorecol, who deserve to slammed. At least his story might alert other collectors about the kind of dishonest crap the worst dealers engage in, and give them advise to keep their guard up. A corollary to this practice is the famous scam in which a dishonest dealer will put a rug behind his counter. That way it is possible, if someone placed group of coins on the counter, to slide one or more pieces off and have it hit the floor without making a sound.
I was dealer for over 10 years, and I could tell you many stories about the asinine behavior of some collectors. Some of those stories need to be told because then collectors would know about some of things that might make dealers angry and avoid doing them. You are not going to get the prices if you make the dealer angry. That's just common sense, but some people don't have common sense.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>Years ago when I was a dealer a couple who were friends of my mother and father in-law consigned to me about $350 face value in 90% silver coins to sell for them. I took the coins to a local dealer who was known to pay the best price for junk silver. I came to shop early to avoid the mid day rush. Upon arriving I told the guy behind counter that I was a dealer and what I had to sell. The guy treated me like I had leprosy. He told me they might get the time to count it and had me sit over a corner of the shop. Finally after waiting for half an hour with no customers in the shop they decided to process the purchase. When they give me a price with good (That is why I put up with them.), but told me they would send me a check, which they did in few days. He won't cut a check right there. I got a good price, but I had to put up with a lot of guff to get it.
Sometime later I spotted this dealer at the Baltimore coin show when I was on a buying trip. I asked to see a coin in his case, and he asked me if I had resale number. I told him, yes, Massachusetts and Connecticut, but at any rate I told him we might well get to the $1,000 exemption limit which was in force in Maryland. Upon hearing that he refused to show me anything and told me to go away.
I talked to a couple of other dealers at the show about this guy. They told me he had treated them the same way, and they could not understand how he stayed in business given the way he treated customers. I don't know if he still is in business, but I won't have any more to do with him.
In his defense I know that he had had some nasty trouble with the Federal tax authorities years ago, but still the way he and staff treated the public was not a formula for business success. >>
Makes you wonder if he was collecting the tax and keeping it. >>
No, from what I heard his problem was the FBI thought he was engaged in money laundering. As it turned out, he wasn't, but the case cost him a lot of time and money. The source of this information was a former employee, who was very honest guy, who has since passed on.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>You guys definitely need us but in all reality we do not necessarily need you
first off to clarify --- ONCE AGAIN --- I am not a Coin Dealer. I am a collector who works for a Coin Dealer at a retail location and on the road at shows. that gives me a better perspective than most and I can tell you with all honesty that the collector bashing stories could fill entire threads, just from me, but what's to be gained by it?? >>
Keets - Its okay. No need to be defensive although I agree you should NOT be considered a coin dealer. I seriously enjoy reading about dealer/collector transactions that are outliers from the norm. I would never consider dealers to be "scum" based on a few isolated stories anymore than I consider collectors to be scum based on the "Why Dealers Drink" threads. And I very much enjoy reading Why Dealers Drink. For better AND for worse there are some crazy people in this world and they ALL fascinate me.
Negative Nellie and Fuddy Duddy showed up, one day. I kindly asked them to leave after degrading, insulting and demeaning me and the items "in inventory". Those items were purchased from your parents at a "fair price", in line with reality, not some television program selling you stuff late at night. Nowadays, I don't see them very often, or their children and the world is a better place, divided. I wave to them as they pass by and sometimes their relatives who've never even met me , turn their noses up, and that's how I can tell their nose hairs need to be trimmed, but it's no skin off my nose, so off they go
…. And that's okay, I still greet them all the same way. It's just that Nellie and Duddy are most happy when miserable. And their children are a spitting image.
This was in WalMart, McDonald's, Burger King, Pizza Hut, Dairy Queen, Nebraska Furniture Mart, a few hot spots at coin shows and at a few coin shops from a "select" few, along this path. But boy oh boy, they leave that taste in our mouths forever, don't they "keeps ? " I could tell a few stories of the indignities I've suffered at the hands of a few 'dealers', locally….. but it serves no purpose to let the world see what Nellie and Duddy look like. We can read about them here, Al.
And I can hardly blame the OP for "coming out" in this fashion. Most people have this really deeply profound "hatred" for injustice. Don't we all ? How did Nellie and Duddy get this way in the first place ? Was it by the hand of the 1% or the 99% ?
All dealers are NOT scum. I know some fine people that are dealers. But I do think that less informed people / collectors are frightened of dealers to a degree. I used to be one of them. It's because many times they don't know themselves what the coin is worth in their hand, and later finding out they were taken. They're blindly counting on the person behind the counter to be fair & honest. It only takes one bad dealer to make many other people have a bad feeling about buying/selling or even staying in the hobby. That's what makes it suck for the good guys that are of the utmost integrity.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I've had so many negative experiences over my 50 years of collecting that it could probably fill a book....and no one would believe it all happened....lol. In my formative years there were probably 20 coin shops within a 25 mile radius of me. Out of that group I'd say 90% of them tried to rip me a new one...some more than once. By 1980 I had written most of them off my "to visit" list. It was a much different world back then though. The slabs do offer some protection today. But, are far from risk free.
Being stiffed by a coin dealer for $11K on a consignment turned bad is probably near the top of my worst experiences. Worst yet, after filing for bankruptcy in 1997 that dealer was right back at it again in the same location, still a life member of the ANA in good standing....lol.
The funniest story is probably from the dealer who was selling me fairly expensive type coins in 1976 when no other dealers in the area had anything like it (VF bust dollars, BU Reeded Edge halves, etc.). When I went back to that dealer a year later to possibly sell/trade them I was met with the line: "We didn't sell you those coins. Those aren't ours." . That was rather short-sighted of that dealer. Over the next 20 years I saw them at numerous area coins shows and never looked at another coin they owned.
My first attempt at mail bidding in a MAJOR auction in 1976 was quite interesting. I bid based by the catalog descriptions on 8 or so BU 19th/early 20th century type coins. It probably came to about $1,000 total. I had no clue you couldn't trust the auction descriptions "at all." Imagine my surprise when I got those coins and every one of them stunk. A 1908-0 barber dime (choice BU) had slide marks and scuffs all over the face. It was at best MS60. Each coin had cuts, scrapes, rim bangs, cleanings, and other serious faults not mentioned in the catalog. I felt like Roy Hobbs at his 1st major league at bat when he whiffed on the first pitch thrown. "Welcome to the big leagues Mr. Hobbs." I wrote the auction house that I was going to send back every single lot. No way I was going to keep crappy coins. That prompted a personal reply from the auction house that I no longer bid at their sales unless I view the lots first or use a representative. That was fine with me. Since they were in Los Angeles there was little likelihood of me bidding in their auctions from 3,000 miles away. It wasn't until 1988 when I bid again in their auctions as I was traveling further to coin shows.
But probably the one experience that gets my goat is the one I talked about here on the forum back in 2006 (see link below). I'm pretty sure they did a switchero on the auction coin I had won. But since I had attended lot viewing there were no returns allowed. My word against theirs. So I just ate the $2,000 loss like a good little doobie. It would seem though what goes around comes around (link below) where the dealer failed to deliver coins to 188 Ebayers over a 4 year period to the tune of $1 MILL.
Another one referenced in this old thread from 5 years ago. 1975-1976 were the years I learned how many crooks were out there. This one only cost me $950 for a lesson learned (ie keeping half is better than nothing).
I have had my share of good and bad dealings with dealers. I have seen collectors act like 5 year olds and throw tantrums. I just want to be treated fairly on a 2 way street. I went into a local coin store that has changed hands a few times over the years and inquired about selling 100 to 1000 dollars face of 90 percent us silver coins. I was quoted 1000 per 100. Less than a mile away another coin store offered 1500 per 100 dollars face and the 3rd coin store offered 1550. To me this was a super easy transaction and stores 2 and 3 offered fair prices. This was a few weeks back. Coin store 1 offered 500 dollars each for pcgs slabbed ms61 and ms 62 gold 10 dollar libs. I did not make any negative comments at store 1 and left and they were surprised I was going to walk out. They told me the bullion market was dead and I could not expect to do any better. The actually sent a person outside to try to seal the deal.
I generally do all my deals in cash and expect cash. If I can buy with 20k in cash so can they if they want it. One coin dealer will pay in cash if I want it and call ahead or I will take his checks. One way to avoid getting a bad check is not to take checks. I do not even like to take a check from Heritage but their bank is quick walk from their front door in Dallas.
To me it is not worth telling a dealer he is an idiot, others may feel the same about me. I run my business how it works for me and they are free to run theres how they see fit.
I think some collectors feel every dealer they come across should by any coin they offer for sale at retail minus 5 percent and the collector gets to set the retail price. lol
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Here is an incident I posted about in October 2009- watching the main "incident" was unpleasant ...
Title of Report: Yelling ... Police ... More Yelling- Today's S. St. Paul Show
Today's show started out like the typical show at this locations, but with the new GW $ out, I suppose one might expect some mild excitement from a few people.
Well once things got rolling, a dealer accused someone of stealing a coin, and things went down hill from there. The room (with about 30 dealers) quickly became aware that something was wrong when the dealer (the accuser) was yelling at someone on the customer side of the table (the accusee- is that a word?). Almost immediately after the yelling began, there was dead silence, except for the dealer yelling (think the decibel level of a Who concert). After a few cycles of yelling, silence, yelling, etc., the poor show promoter came over to see what was going on. Some more yelling ensued at a bit lower decibel level, or perhaps my ears were still ringing from the earlier out bursts, and it just didn’t seem as loud.
After some more yelling, the police were called. While waiting for the police, the show went on, but at a slower pace. Once the police came, the yelling started up again. Apparently, if you provide the right combination of yelling and swearing when explaining things to the police you can get arrested. We didn’t quite experience the appropriate combinations for that to happen, but based on the warnings given by the police, we may have been close. Also, apparently the police don’t need the help of others, particularly the accusor, who offered, repeatedly, to conduct a search of the accusee. Also, apparently the police don’t appreciate being told by the accusor that he could do a better search than they can.
Oh, with all the excitement we almost forgot about how things got started- the allegedly stolen coin was a 1914-D Lincoln Cent. It wasn’t clear to me through the yelling if the issue a coin had been switched for one in a lower grade, or that a coin was missing.
The police stuck around for about 90 minutes. The dealer packed up during this time and left.
The momentum of the show picked up a bit, but never got fully back on track. There were a few happy people at the show. I exchanged a few old quarters and crumpled dollar bills for new Montana State Quarters and GW $s- an even exchange. That made several people smile, including several kids, that hopefully showed up after the fireworks had ended
After 50 years of collecting, I can honestly say I have never had an unpleasant encounter with a dealer. Quite the opposite, they have purchased me dinner, allowed me to keep my coins behind their tables, shared laughs over beers, one major dealer even allowed me to rifle through his cases while he went to speak with another dealer.
One of the big mistakes that honest dealers can do is to stick up for the crooks who are in their industry. In a conversation with a well-known dealer back in the 1990s, this guy kept defending every action that his less than honest colleagues did. Finally I told him, "These guys are eating your lunch and you are serving it to them. They take whatever good things you do for the coin business and use it to their advantage to bilk the public. "
I don't think that the message sunk in at the time, but in the coming months I heard less from him about defending the bad guys. It may have been because I said something, and he did not want to offend me, or perhaps he got the message. The "circle the wagons" mentality is not good for the industry when people who are benefiting from the fortress continue to betray their colleagues when they are under their colleagues' protection.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I had one dealer lose his temper after I told him I was looking for Gem clad quarters and he kicked me out of his shop after I had spent half an hour going through his stock. Otherwise all my experiences with dealers have been very positive though a few do re- quire a virtue I don't have in abundance; patience.
Modern bashing is very tame compared to what is was in 1980.
<< <i>One of the big mistakes that honest dealers can do is to stick up for the crooks who are in their industry. In a conversation with a well-known dealer back in the 1990s, this guy kept defending every action that his less than honest colleagues did. Finally I told him, "These guys are eating your lunch and you are serving it to them. They take whatever good things you do for the coin business and use it to their advantage to bilk the public. "
I don't think that the message sunk in at the time, but in the coming months I heard less from him about defending the bad guys. It may have been because I said something, and he did not want to offend me, or perhaps he got the message. The "circle the wagons" mentality is not good for the industry when people who are benefiting from the fortress continue to betray their colleagues when they are under their colleagues' protection. >>
Absolutely ! As much as I agree with those who shun negativity here, the crookiness of many in the biz is a huge elephant in the room.... Personally I feel fortunate to have connected with some first class dealers and collectors, which has allowed me to move coins along at a fair price when I've needed to.
Too bad this kind of good "fortune" seems to be required in order not to get burned in this hobby...
I was at the now defunct Ontario, CA show and offered this coin to a dealer in a box of 20 pretty nice coins. He asked how much and I opened at $1200. The dealer looked it up in the greysheet and educated me that its only worth maybe $600 - see the greysheet! He then ordered me to pack up my stuff and leave his table.
Yes - I was asking way over sheet, but geez, I'd like to buy a bunch of that look like this sheet + a premium!
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
Successful, problem free and pleasant transactions with: illini420, coinguy1, weather11am,wayneherndon,wondercoin,Topdollarpaid,Julian, bishdigg,seateddime, peicesofme,ajia,CoinRaritiesOnline,savoyspecial,Boom, TorinoCobra71, ModernCoinMart, WTCG, slinc, Patches, Gerard, pocketpiececommems, BigJohnD, RickMilauskas, mirabella, Smittys, LeeG, TomB, DeusExMachina, tydye
1. I went to a coin shop, that I been to before a few times. I asked to see their box of Barber half dollars, which they keep in the safe. They told me I could't, and with their new policy they dont let customers see their coins. I asked how they plan on selling anything. They told me If I tell them the series and date, they will get one out of the back for me to buy.
I left and have not been back.
2. I went to a particular coin shop for the first time. The coin shop had very little on display, but I could see boxes of coins behind the display. The Dealer was sitting down drinking coffee, when I asked him if he had any Morgans. He shrugged his shoulders and replied "I don't know, I have lots of stuff." Never even got up to help me.
I left and have never been back
3. I went to a coin shop, and while looking through his inventory of common dreck , I asked why he had no prices on his coins. He gave me this big lecture on how the coin market changes every week, and that prices can go up and down every day. So I asked him for a quote for some random coin, and he pulled out the previous years redbook and spouted out a very high price.
I asked him, if the coin market changes every week, then why are you quoting price from a book over a year old. He told me that its his business, and if I dont like it leave.
<< <i>How much of a problem are dealers who cheat/rip-off other dealers? >>
Enough of a problem that PNG was founded to help fight the deadbeats (to paraphrase Abe Kosoff). >>
Has PNG worked? >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>1. I went to a coin shop, that I been to before a few times. I asked to see their box of Barber half dollars, which they keep in the safe. They told me I could't, and with their new policy they dont let customers see their coins. I asked how they plan on selling anything. They told me If I tell them the series and date, they will get one out of the back for me to buy.
I left and have not been back. >>
That's just weird, especially as you had been there before. I can only imagine how long it would take to do a deal at a shop like that.
Do you have a 1892-P Barber half? ...dealer walks into the back of the shop...comes back to counter... "Nope, guess again!"
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I set up at gun shows from time to time when I need to raise funds and there is quite a bit of overlap of coin collectors/gun collectors. I will sometimes take some coins/bullion with me. When I take the time to set up at a show I intend to move material and price it fairly, generally I do pretty well on a given weekend.
It is a fickle business, sometimes you can not give an item away priced at a fair value. I took a gun to 3 shows priced at 750 dollars and no intrest. At the 4 show I jacked the price to 1200 and sold it in 30 minutes for 1100. I have done this more times than you can fathom.
I can put a brand new in the box ar-15 that sells in everystore in America for 599 and get people making offers at 300 or less. You get all types that want to pick your stuff apart and then they still want to buy it. lol
If you are looking to buy something and are willing to pay a fair price we will do business. I can make it work. You come and diss me and my stuff and I will not budge 1 cent.
In a weeks time I visit a lot of coin stores, pawn shops, gun stores, antique stores, peoples houses and people call to sell stuff. I am amazed that some people can make it thru a day. I have a pretty good core of businesses that I deal with, most all deals get done in minutes with very little back and forth dickering. Over the years we have come to know each other and what it takes to make it work for both parties. A couple of them I have 2 prices with, items I plan to keep get sold to me for less than items I am reselling. Works the same in reverse with them.
I would like to add more coin stores/dealers into the mix but in my opinion they are a tough bunch to do business with.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>Do unpleasant encounters with dealer wannabes count? >>
I would say 95 percent of all the issues occur with the wannabe group. Underfunded, here today, gone tomorrow with no real recourse. I am in the wannabe group but I reside in the top 5 percent
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>Do unpleasant encounters with dealer wannabes count? >>
I would say 95 percent of all the issues occur with the wannabe group. Underfunded, here today, gone tomorrow with no real recourse. I am in the wannabe group but I reside in the top 5 percent >>
I wouldn't call you a wannabe anything Mark. You make positive contributions both here and in the hobby.
My favorite definition of wannabe dealers is "guys that think having 3 month old photocopies of someone else's greysheet make them dealers, and that buying two of something is a wholesale purchase."
Unpleasant Experiences? Where to begin? How about the LATEST bad experiences?
1) Well I mentioned before that my Cheerios Sacagawea coin I have for sale I called a few dealers and such. Most had never heard of the coin. One asked me about and seemed curious. I told him the story on the coin and about the Pattern. He then went on to tell me then the coin was obviously stolen from the Mint if it was a coin never meant to be released and I could get in trouble for trying to sell it. So if anybody here has a Cheerios Dollar-----the CIA is looking for you.
2) Back in April I went into a little Silver/Gold shop. Would not really classify it as ' coin shop' exactly. They had a 1801 Dollar for sale for $4500. I looked at it and went to the owner (Who I knew him but did not know him personally or anything) to tell him that his 1801 Dollar was fake. He got pissy and asked how I could know that from just looking thru a showcase and how coin collectors miss out on great coins because they always expect rare coins to be fake, yada, yada. I let him rant. Then told him I knew it was fake because his coin had 14 stars.
3) I've had this happen DOZENS of times. I had for sale a VF35 1895o Morgan. I had a dealer call me and I told him my price. He offered about 75% what I wanted him. I just put the coin for sale. When I put a coin(s) for sale I price it fair but not so that a dealer can flip it and make a profit. Why would I do that? I told him I respect him calling me and not being TOTALLY absurd with his price but being blunt-----I don't need to sell it, I know coins, and eventually a collector will buy it and I'll get more than a dealer could offer me and the buyer will get it cheaper than he could get from a dealer/Ebay.
An hour went by and I got a call. From the same dealer. I am a big Morgan Collector and he knew that from before. I answered and he proceeded to offer me my own coin for $75 more than my asking price as though he owned the coin. I laughed and told him he made my day and he should look at who he just called.
Planonit: getting called back by that same dealer takes the cake.
My dealer trying to take me for a lot more money story revolved around a rare seated coin I had bought raw at auction raw for $7.5K When it came back NGC MS64 I was in it around even. I had been hoping for a 65. I resubmitted the coin to PCGS figuring it would come back no worse than 64. Nope, it came back 63 and I was buried if things stayed the way they were. I offered the coin at a steep discount to a dealer friend who knew the previous grade. They sort of chuckled saying they wanted to pay $3,000. Couldn't blame them really. To save me the hassle of a separate shipment to NGC I gave him the coin to go in with his next order. At least if I got it back to a 64 I'd be back to around even. It comes back a MS65 and now is worth arguably $15K (at that time a type coin was bid sight-unseen $10K). Imagine my surprise when my friend offers me $10K for it (it's now pop 1 for date - finest graded). His logic was that it was "really" a 63/64 coin and not worth more than $10K, especially since I paid $7500 for it. I drove the 2 hours to his business and we still couldn't reach an agreement. I think he raised his offer to $12K. I took the coin home with me almost certain that I could get $15K in a heartbeat from someone else. The next day the first dealer I called on the coin was willing to pay $15K for it sight-unseen.
Coin was shipped out (was I really obligated to give my friend a right of refusal at $15K after he had tried twice to chisel me on it?). A few days later my dealer friend calls me and asks about the coin. I told him it was gone. He was fuming that I had sold "OUR" coin "out from under him." I didn't realize that when someone submits a coin for you they become "partners" with you on all upgrades and that negotiations can last as long as it takes for them to gain 100% ownership. I told the guy he should have offered a fairer price before I left with the coin. I took all the risks and put up all the money. Not content with losing out on "their score," they proceeded to call the other dealer. They basically said I had improperly sold the coin out from under them and they demanded a 50% stake in the coin. Looks like it was worth $15K all along to them. As I recall, they got $18K for the coin so each made $1500 on it. I didn't really mind that they tried to buy that coin as cheap as they could. But, what really got to me was essentially accusing me of having lousy business ethics in front of another dealer who I did business with. In fact when they first offered me $10K for the coin I knew it was imperative to go up and get it right away. Fond memories of the "old days." Not that I miss them any.
<< <i>Planonit: getting called back by that same dealer takes the cake.
My dealer trying to take me for a lot more money story revolved around a rare seated coin I had bought raw at auction raw for $7.5K When it came back NGC MS64 I was in it around even. I had been hoping for a 65. I resubmitted the coin to PCGS figuring it would come back no worse than 64. Nope, it came back 63 and I was buried if things stayed the way they were. I offered the coin at a steep discount to a dealer friend who knew the previous grade. They sort of chuckled saying they wanted to pay $3,000. Couldn't blame them really. To save me the hassle of a separate shipment to NGC I gave him the coin to go in with his next order. At least if I got it back to a 64 I'd be back to around even. It comes back a MS65 and now is worth arguably $15K (at that time a type coin was bid sight-unseen $10K). Imagine my surprise when my friend offers me $10K for it (it's now pop 1 for date - finest graded). His logic was that it was "really" a 63/64 coin and not worth more than $10K, especially since I paid $7500 for it. I drove the 2 hours to his business and we still couldn't reach an agreement. I think he raised his offer to $12K. I took the coin home with me almost certain that I could get $15K in a heartbeat from someone else. The next day the first dealer I called on the coin was willing to pay $15K for it sight-unseen.
Coin was shipped out (was I really obligated to give my friend a right of refusal at $15K after he had tried twice to chisel me on it?). A few days later my dealer friend calls me and asks about the coin. I told him it was gone. He was fuming that I had sold "OUR" coin "out from under him." I didn't realize that when someone submits a coin for you they become "partners" with you on all upgrades and that negotiations can last as long as it takes for them to gain 100% ownership. I told the guy he should have offered a fairer price before I left with the coin. I took all the risks and put up all the money. Not content with losing out on "their score," they proceeded to call the other dealer. They basically said I had improperly sold the coin out from under them and they demanded a 50% stake in the coin. Looks like it was worth $15K all along to them. As I recall, they got $18K for the coin so each made $1500 on it. I didn't really mind that they tried to buy that coin as cheap as they could. But, what really got to me was essentially accusing me of having lousy business ethics in front of another dealer who I did business with. In fact when they first offered me $10K for the coin I knew it was imperative to go up and get it right away. Fond memories of the "old days." Not that I miss them any. >>
Wow roadrunner. Just-wow. "Our" coin? Really? Talk about having guts...Dealer 1 IMO wasn't your "friend" by any definition I use. His only involvement was submitting the coin, something for which I assume he was paid. He probably felt that entitled him to first shot when it came back...and you did that. As far as I'm concerned, it's game over with him at that point when you leave with the coin.
And if I'm Dealer 2- the guy you sold the coin to for $15k- I'd consider it a straight up done deal made with the owner of the coin. Why would Dealer 2 agree to a profit split? If I'm him and this guy calls up out of nowhere demanding a cut of anything I make on the piece... let's say the conversation would be very short- perhaps all of two words.
<< <i>I always find it annoying when i spot something Im really interested in buying and have a solid sense of the value. Then the Dealer quotes me a price that is totally laughable, but I keep my wits. Then I proceed to politely ask him how he came up with that price, and it's a story just a donk could possibly believe. He refuses to even listen to my justification and I end up walking. Bottom line, he has no interest in selling to anyone unless they're totally clueless. It's amazing how many Dealers get emotionally tied to their wares. >>
Read this in reverse to get a unpleasant customer encounter. The dealers price is the dealers price. You have two options, one of which is not to "educate" the dealer to your perspective on pricing unless he/she asks.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
<< <i>I only had 1 really bad encounter. Back about 5 years ago I had an ANACS AU55 1932 D Washington and an NGC AU 53 1932 S Washington. I showed them to a Dealer for sale as a pair. He looked, and asked how much after I asked if he had any interest. I stated " $500 for the pair". He proceeded to just about throw them back at me.
I was instantly so angry at this uncalled for rudeness I almost came over the table to beat him senseless.
I routinely walk past his tables even to this day. What an asshat. >>
Uncalled for. He should have said something like "neat coins, but not for me" OR it would not have hurt to counter if he would have been within 10-15% of your ask.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
At the ANA WFOM last year I had a few gold ounces (less than 20) to sell to raise money for coins. Got an offer from a California dealer that was ~$30 over Silvertowne's offer, so I sold him about half of them. The next day, he told me he made a mistake and paid too much. He wanted to buy the rest for $100/ounce less. I politely but firmly declined. The idiot started cursing me out. I got away as quickly as I could and have warned people about him ever since.
<< <i>At the ANA WFOM last year I had a few gold ounces (less than 20) to sell to raise money for coins. Got an offer from a California dealer that was ~$30 over Silvertowne's offer, so I sold him about half of them. The next day, he told me he made a mistake and paid too much. He wanted to buy the rest for $100/ounce less. I politely but firmly declined. The idiot started cursing me out. I got away as quickly as I could and have warned people about him ever since. >>
The first time, he likely thought he was going to walk them over to Silvertowne for a quick flip...oops.
Down on page 5 of this thread I doubt more than one or two people will ever see this, but it is an interesting take on "rude".
A decade ago I was able to hit up a few Albuquerque coin shops while coaching a few decathletes at the Great Southwest Track Invitational. I had a few daytime hours and a rental car, so out I went. I went to one shop, spent about $600 on a couple Commems, went to another place where I bought a group of silver dollars as bulk that had some fun pieces, and finally ended up at a shop that was older and run by the stereotypical old codger who stayed open for the "buy" side and just had widgets. I politely looked around, mentioned my collecting specialties, and tried to find something to buy to just validate my time in his shop. I asked for anything he might have that was 'toned', and he said "Nothing like that here!". (That was the "rude" part.) I said thanks for his time, and headed for the door when he said, "hey -- wait a minute", and disappeared into his back room. 30 seconds later he said "here" and threw a 1969-S Proof Set at me. Yup. It skidded down the top of his glass cases a full 15 feet, bouncing over the gaps and trim until I picked it out of the air as it sailed off the end of the counter.
I opened up the blue Mint paper and looked at the most interesting proof set I still (years later) have ever seen. The 4 smaller denominations were toned in a typical rim fashion but were admittedly pretty (several dealers here in UT have commented they WANT them when I have tired of ownership), but the Kennedy. Oh.................................. The 40% Kennedy. The toning was something out of an AT specialists lurid psychotic dream. Problem was -- it was unquestionably REAL I asked, "How much?" He said, "Whaddya wanna pay?". I stammered for a while and went silent. He said, "It's $10." That was about double bid. I took it.
Fast forward two years.
I have had the set and thought I would take it to Long Beach, just on the off-chance I could screw up enough courage to maybe see if PCGS would certify the set. I spent some time at the show, and thought, "well, let's give this a go -- what is the worst that could happen -- David Hall bans me from the hobby for being a nerd?" I stood in line at the PCGS--David Hall courtesy grading line and slowly advanced, while my heartbeat rose. Finally . . .showtime!
I handed the set to Mr. Hall in the cardboard blue outer holder and just said, "Would these coins possibly grade?"
David Hall: (upon a cursory look at the inside plastic holder) $50?
Me: Um . . . . each?
David Hall: The set.
Me: All five coins?
David Hall: Yeah . . . (handing it to one of the slinky business suited chicks standing next to him). She wrote it up, got my addy, and my $50, while Mr. Hall scratched "DH" over the center of the submission form. (At that time certification was about $14 or so per coin, so it was a GOOD DEAL!)
Me: Thanks a million! (I turn and walk away . . .)
David Hall: Hey!
Me: (turning around at the right of the line) Yes?
David Hall: You realize you have a $2000 Kennedy in that set, right?
Me: (in shock) Um . . no, but thanks!
All five coins arrive not two weeks later. The Kennedy is still my centerpiece of my Toned Type Set.
That Albuquerque shop owner may have been the typical rude old codger, but he helped me out . . . . . . .
<< <i>Down on page 5 of this thread I doubt more than one or two people will ever see this, but it is an interesting take on "rude".
A decade ago I was able to hit up a few Albuquerque coin shops while coaching a few decathletes at the Great Southwest Track Invitational. I had a few daytime hours and a rental car, so out I went. I went to one shop, spent about $600 on a couple Commems, went to another place where I bought a group of silver dollars as bulk that had some fun pieces, and finally ended up at a shop that was older and run by the stereotypical old codger who stayed open for the "buy" side and just had widgets. I politely looked around, mentioned my collecting specialties, and tried to find something to buy to just validate my time in his shop. I asked for anything he might have that was 'toned', and he said "Nothing like that here!". (That was the "rude" part.) I said thanks for his time, and headed for the door when he said, "hey -- wait a minute", and disappeared into his back room. 30 seconds later he said "here" and threw a 1969-S Proof Set at me. Yup. It skidded down the top of his glass cases a full 15 feet, bouncing over the gaps and trim until I picked it out of the air as it sailed off the end of the counter.
I opened up the blue Mint paper and looked at the most interesting proof set I still (years later) have ever seen. The 4 smaller denominations were toned in a typical rim fashion but were admittedly pretty (several dealers here in UT have commented they WANT them when I have tired of ownership), but the Kennedy. Oh.................................. The 40% Kennedy. The toning was something out of an AT specialists lurid psychotic dream. Problem was -- it was unquestionably REAL I asked, "How much?" He said, "Whaddya wanna pay?". I stammered for a while and went silent. He said, "It's $10." That was about double bid. I took it.
Fast forward two years.
I have had the set and thought I would take it to Long Beach, just on the off-chance I could screw up enough courage to maybe see if PCGS would certify the set. I spent some time at the show, and thought, "well, let's give this a go -- what is the worst that could happen -- David Hall bans me from the hobby for being a nerd?" I stood in line at the PCGS--David Hall courtesy grading line and slowly advanced, while my heartbeat rose. Finally . . .showtime!
I handed the set to Mr. Hall in the cardboard blue outer holder and just said, "Would these coins possibly grade?"
David Hall: (upon a cursory look at the inside plastic holder) $50?
Me: Um . . . . each?
David Hall: The set.
Me: All five coins?
David Hall: Yeah . . . (handing it to one of the slinky business suited chicks standing next to him). She wrote it up, got my addy, and my $50, while Mr. Hall scratched "DH" over the center of the submission form. (At that time certification was about $14 or so per coin, so it was a GOOD DEAL!)
Me: Thanks a million! (I turn and walk away . . .)
David Hall: Hey!
Me: (turning around at the right of the line) Yes?
David Hall: You realize you have a $2000 Kennedy in that set, right?
Me: (in shock) Um . . no, but thanks!
All five coins arrive not two weeks later. The Kennedy is still my centerpiece of my Toned Type Set.
That Albuquerque shop owner may have been the typical rude old codger, but he helped me out . . . . . . .
Drunner >>
Come on and show the pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Comments
first off to clarify --- ONCE AGAIN --- I am not a Coin Dealer. I am a collector who works for a Coin Dealer at a retail location and on the road at shows. that gives me a better perspective than most and I can tell you with all honesty that the collector bashing stories could fill entire threads, just from me, but what's to be gained by it??
if it makes you feel good or superior in believing that Dealers as a group are scum there isn't much I can do, nor can anyone else. tell me something positive and maybe we'll have something to talk about, something positive about people in general which I experience at the counter every day. the sour apples are easy to overlook.
<< <i>You guys definitely need us but in all reality we do not necessarily need you
first off to clarify --- ONCE AGAIN --- I am not a Coin Dealer. I am a collector who works for a Coin Dealer at a retail location and on the road at shows. that gives me a better perspective than most and I can tell you with all honesty that the collector bashing stories could fill entire threads, just from me, but what's to be gained by it??
if it makes you feel good or superior in believing that Dealers as a group are scum there isn't much I can do, nor can anyone else. tell me something positive and maybe we'll have something to talk about, something positive about people in general which I experience at the counter every day. the sour apples are easy to overlook. >>
I am not, and I don't think anyone here is saying that "All dealers are scum." The point is there are some very bad actors out there, like the one who switched the coin on shorecol, who deserve to slammed. At least his story might alert other collectors about the kind of dishonest crap the worst dealers engage in, and give them advise to keep their guard up. A corollary to this practice is the famous scam in which a dishonest dealer will put a rug behind his counter. That way it is possible, if someone placed group of coins on the counter, to slide one or more pieces off and have it hit the floor without making a sound.
I was dealer for over 10 years, and I could tell you many stories about the asinine behavior of some collectors. Some of those stories need to be told because then collectors would know about some of things that might make dealers angry and avoid doing them. You are not going to get the prices if you make the dealer angry. That's just common sense, but some people don't have common sense.
<< <i>
<< <i>Years ago when I was a dealer a couple who were friends of my mother and father in-law consigned to me about $350 face value in 90% silver coins to sell for them. I took the coins to a local dealer who was known to pay the best price for junk silver. I came to shop early to avoid the mid day rush. Upon arriving I told the guy behind counter that I was a dealer and what I had to sell. The guy treated me like I had leprosy. He told me they might get the time to count it and had me sit over a corner of the shop. Finally after waiting for half an hour with no customers in the shop they decided to process the purchase. When they give me a price with good (That is why I put up with them.), but told me they would send me a check, which they did in few days. He won't cut a check right there. I got a good price, but I had to put up with a lot of guff to get it.
Sometime later I spotted this dealer at the Baltimore coin show when I was on a buying trip. I asked to see a coin in his case, and he asked me if I had resale number. I told him, yes, Massachusetts and Connecticut, but at any rate I told him we might well get to the $1,000 exemption limit which was in force in Maryland. Upon hearing that he refused to show me anything and told me to go away.
I talked to a couple of other dealers at the show about this guy. They told me he had treated them the same way, and they could not understand how he stayed in business given the way he treated customers. I don't know if he still is in business, but I won't have any more to do with him.
In his defense I know that he had had some nasty trouble with the Federal tax authorities years ago, but still the way he and staff treated the public was not a formula for business success. >>
Makes you wonder if he was collecting the tax and keeping it. >>
No, from what I heard his problem was the FBI thought he was engaged in money laundering. As it turned out, he wasn't, but the case cost him a lot of time and money. The source of this information was a former employee, who was very honest guy, who has since passed on.
<< <i>You guys definitely need us but in all reality we do not necessarily need you
first off to clarify --- ONCE AGAIN --- I am not a Coin Dealer. I am a collector who works for a Coin Dealer at a retail location and on the road at shows. that gives me a better perspective than most and I can tell you with all honesty that the collector bashing stories could fill entire threads, just from me, but what's to be gained by it?? >>
Keets - Its okay. No need to be defensive although I agree you should NOT be considered a coin dealer. I seriously enjoy reading about dealer/collector transactions that are outliers from the norm. I would never consider dealers to be "scum" based on a few isolated stories anymore than I consider collectors to be scum based on the "Why Dealers Drink" threads. And I very much enjoy reading Why Dealers Drink. For better AND for worse there are some crazy people in this world and they ALL fascinate me.
<< <i>this is ridiculous, what is to be gained by dwelling on isolated, negative experiences >>
It certainly is much more interesting than those foolish "Why" or "Who" threads.
I wave to them as they pass by and sometimes their relatives who've never even met me , turn their noses up, and that's how I can tell their nose hairs need to be trimmed, but it's no skin off my nose, so off they go
…. And that's okay, I still greet them all the same way. It's just that Nellie and Duddy are most happy when miserable. And their children are a spitting image.
This was in WalMart, McDonald's, Burger King, Pizza Hut, Dairy Queen, Nebraska Furniture Mart, a few hot spots at coin shows and at a few coin shops from a "select" few, along this path. But boy oh boy, they leave that taste in our mouths forever, don't they "keeps ? "
I could tell a few stories of the indignities I've suffered at the hands of a few 'dealers', locally….. but it serves no purpose to let the world see what Nellie and Duddy look like. We can read about them here, Al.
And I can hardly blame the OP for "coming out" in this fashion. Most people have this really deeply profound "hatred" for injustice. Don't we all ? How did Nellie and Duddy get this way in the first place ? Was it by the hand of the 1% or the 99% ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>This looks like another cleverly disguised "bash the dealers" thread
ohhhhhh the humanity
Just tell the tales. Heads or tails ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
of them. It's because many times they don't know themselves what the coin is worth in their hand, and later finding out they were taken. They're blindly counting on the person
behind the counter to be fair & honest. It only takes one bad dealer to make many other people have a bad feeling about buying/selling or even staying in the hobby. That's what
makes it suck for the good guys that are of the utmost integrity.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
25 mile radius of me. Out of that group I'd say 90% of them tried to rip me a new one...some more than once. By 1980 I had written most of them off my "to visit" list. It was a much different world back then though.
The slabs do offer some protection today. But, are far from risk free.
Being stiffed by a coin dealer for $11K on a consignment turned bad is probably near the top of my worst experiences. Worst yet, after filing for bankruptcy in 1997 that dealer was right back at it again in the same location,
still a life member of the ANA in good standing....lol.
The funniest story is probably from the dealer who was selling me fairly expensive type coins in 1976 when no other dealers in the area had anything like it (VF bust dollars, BU Reeded Edge halves, etc.). When I went back to that
dealer a year later to possibly sell/trade them I was met with the line: "We didn't sell you those coins. Those aren't ours." . That was rather short-sighted of that dealer. Over the next 20 years I saw them at numerous
area coins shows and never looked at another coin they owned.
My first attempt at mail bidding in a MAJOR auction in 1976 was quite interesting. I bid based by the catalog descriptions on 8 or so BU 19th/early 20th century type coins. It probably came to about $1,000 total. I had no clue
you couldn't trust the auction descriptions "at all." Imagine my surprise when I got those coins and every one of them stunk. A 1908-0 barber dime (choice BU) had slide marks and scuffs all over the face. It was at best
MS60. Each coin had cuts, scrapes, rim bangs, cleanings, and other serious faults not mentioned in the catalog. I felt like Roy Hobbs at his 1st major league at bat when he whiffed on the first pitch thrown. "Welcome to the
big leagues Mr. Hobbs." I wrote the auction house that I was going to send back every single lot. No way I was going to keep crappy coins. That prompted a personal reply from the auction house that I no longer bid at
their sales unless I view the lots first or use a representative. That was fine with me. Since they were in Los Angeles there was little likelihood of me bidding in their auctions from 3,000 miles away. It wasn't until 1988 when I
bid again in their auctions as I was traveling further to coin shows.
But probably the one experience that gets my goat is the one I talked about here on the forum back in 2006 (see link below). I'm pretty sure they did a switchero on the auction coin I had won. But since I had attended lot
viewing there were no returns allowed. My word against theirs. So I just ate the $2,000 loss like a good little doobie. It would seem though what goes around comes around (link below) where the dealer failed to deliver coins
to 188 Ebayers over a 4 year period to the tune of $1 MILL.
serving time in Florida in 2006
Another one referenced in this old thread from 5 years ago. 1975-1976 were the years I learned how many crooks were out there. This one only cost me $950 for a lesson learned (ie keeping half is better than nothing).
Florida Estate Liquidators - liquidated me!
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I generally do all my deals in cash and expect cash. If I can buy with 20k in cash so can they if they want it. One coin dealer will pay in cash if I want it and call ahead or I will take his checks. One way to avoid getting a bad check is not to take checks. I do not even like to take a check from Heritage but their bank is quick walk from their front door in Dallas.
To me it is not worth telling a dealer he is an idiot, others may feel the same about me. I run my business how it works for me and they are free to run theres how they see fit.
I think some collectors feel every dealer they come across should by any coin they offer for sale at retail minus 5 percent and the collector gets to set the retail price. lol
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Title of Report: Yelling ... Police ... More Yelling- Today's S. St. Paul Show
Today's show started out like the typical show at this locations, but with the new GW $ out, I suppose one might expect some mild excitement from a few people.
Well once things got rolling, a dealer accused someone of stealing a coin, and things went down hill from there. The room (with about 30 dealers) quickly became aware that something was wrong when the dealer (the accuser) was yelling at someone on the customer side of the table (the accusee- is that a word?). Almost immediately after the yelling began, there was dead silence, except for the dealer yelling (think the decibel level of a Who concert). After a few cycles of yelling, silence, yelling, etc., the poor show promoter came over to see what was going on. Some more yelling ensued at a bit lower decibel level, or perhaps my ears were still ringing from the earlier out bursts, and it just didn’t seem as loud.
After some more yelling, the police were called. While waiting for the police, the show went on, but at a slower pace. Once the police came, the yelling started up again. Apparently, if you provide the right combination of yelling and swearing when explaining things to the police you can get arrested. We didn’t quite experience the appropriate combinations for that to happen, but based on the warnings given by the police, we may have been close. Also, apparently the police don’t need the help of others, particularly the accusor, who offered, repeatedly, to conduct a search of the accusee. Also, apparently the police don’t appreciate being told by the accusor that he could do a better search than they can.
Oh, with all the excitement we almost forgot about how things got started- the allegedly stolen coin was a 1914-D Lincoln Cent. It wasn’t clear to me through the yelling if the issue a coin had been switched for one in a lower grade, or that a coin was missing.
The police stuck around for about 90 minutes. The dealer packed up during this time and left.
The momentum of the show picked up a bit, but never got fully back on track. There were a few happy people at the show. I exchanged a few old quarters and crumpled dollar bills for new Montana State Quarters and GW $s- an even exchange. That made several people smile, including several kids, that hopefully showed up after the fireworks had ended
And I am not a whale by any means.
I don't think that the message sunk in at the time, but in the coming months I heard less from him about defending the bad guys. It may have been because I said something, and he did not want to offend me, or perhaps he got the message. The "circle the wagons" mentality is not good for the industry when people who are benefiting from the fortress continue to betray their colleagues when they are under their colleagues' protection.
and he kicked me out of his shop after I had spent half an hour going through his stock.
Otherwise all my experiences with dealers have been very positive though a few do re-
quire a virtue I don't have in abundance; patience.
Modern bashing is very tame compared to what is was in 1980.
<< <i>One of the big mistakes that honest dealers can do is to stick up for the crooks who are in their industry. In a conversation with a well-known dealer back in the 1990s, this guy kept defending every action that his less than honest colleagues did. Finally I told him, "These guys are eating your lunch and you are serving it to them. They take whatever good things you do for the coin business and use it to their advantage to bilk the public. "
I don't think that the message sunk in at the time, but in the coming months I heard less from him about defending the bad guys. It may have been because I said something, and he did not want to offend me, or perhaps he got the message. The "circle the wagons" mentality is not good for the industry when people who are benefiting from the fortress continue to betray their colleagues when they are under their colleagues' protection. >>
Absolutely !
As much as I agree with those who shun negativity here, the crookiness of many in the biz is a huge elephant in the room....
Personally I feel fortunate to have connected with some first class dealers and collectors, which has allowed me to move coins along at a fair price when I've needed to.
Too bad this kind of good "fortune" seems to be required in order not to get burned in this hobby...
Yes - I was asking way over sheet, but geez, I'd like to buy a bunch of that look like this sheet + a premium!
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
Successful, problem free and pleasant transactions with: illini420, coinguy1, weather11am,wayneherndon,wondercoin,Topdollarpaid,Julian, bishdigg,seateddime, peicesofme,ajia,CoinRaritiesOnline,savoyspecial,Boom, TorinoCobra71, ModernCoinMart, WTCG, slinc, Patches, Gerard, pocketpiececommems, BigJohnD, RickMilauskas, mirabella, Smittys, LeeG, TomB, DeusExMachina, tydye
<< <i>How much of a problem are dealers who cheat/rip-off other dealers? >>
Enough of a problem that PNG was founded to help fight the deadbeats (to paraphrase Abe Kosoff).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I left and have not been back.
2. I went to a particular coin shop for the first time. The coin shop had very little on display, but I could see boxes of coins behind the display. The Dealer was sitting down drinking coffee, when I asked him if he had any Morgans. He shrugged his shoulders and replied "I don't know, I have lots of stuff." Never even got up to help me.
I left and have never been back
3. I went to a coin shop, and while looking through his inventory of common dreck , I asked why he had no prices on his coins. He gave me this big lecture on how the coin market changes every week, and that prices can go up and down every day. So I asked him for a quote for some random coin, and he pulled out the previous years redbook and spouted out a very high price.
I asked him, if the coin market changes every week, then why are you quoting price from a book over a year old. He told me that its his business, and if I dont like it leave.
I left and have never been back.
<< <i>
<< <i>How much of a problem are dealers who cheat/rip-off other dealers? >>
Enough of a problem that PNG was founded to help fight the deadbeats (to paraphrase Abe Kosoff). >>
Has PNG worked?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How much of a problem are dealers who cheat/rip-off other dealers? >>
Enough of a problem that PNG was founded to help fight the deadbeats (to paraphrase Abe Kosoff). >>
Has PNG worked? >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>1. I went to a coin shop, that I been to before a few times. I asked to see their box of Barber half dollars, which they keep in the safe. They told me I could't, and with their new policy they dont let customers see their coins. I asked how they plan on selling anything. They told me If I tell them the series and date, they will get one out of the back for me to buy.
I left and have not been back.
>>
That's just weird, especially as you had been there before. I can only imagine how long it would take to do a deal at a shop like that.
Do you have a 1892-P Barber half?
...dealer walks into the back of the shop...comes back to counter... "Nope, guess again!"
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Coins for Sale: Both Graded and Ungraded
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oqym2YtcS7ZAZ73D6
It is a fickle business, sometimes you can not give an item away priced at a fair value. I took a gun to 3 shows priced at 750 dollars and no intrest. At the 4 show I jacked the price to 1200 and sold it in 30 minutes for 1100. I have done this more times than you can fathom.
I can put a brand new in the box ar-15 that sells in everystore in America for 599 and get people making offers at 300 or less. You get all types that want to pick your stuff apart and then they still want to buy it. lol
If you are looking to buy something and are willing to pay a fair price we will do business. I can make it work. You come and diss me and my stuff and I will not budge 1 cent.
In a weeks time I visit a lot of coin stores, pawn shops, gun stores, antique stores, peoples houses and people call to sell stuff. I am amazed that some people can make it thru a day. I have a pretty good core of businesses that I deal with, most all deals get done in minutes with very little back and forth dickering. Over the years we have come to know each other and what it takes to make it work for both parties. A couple of them I have 2 prices with, items I plan to keep get sold to me for less than items I am reselling. Works the same in reverse with them.
I would like to add more coin stores/dealers into the mix but in my opinion they are a tough bunch to do business with.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Do unpleasant encounters with dealer wannabes count?
I would say 95 percent of all the issues occur with the wannabe group. Underfunded, here today, gone tomorrow with no real recourse. I am in the wannabe group but I reside in the top 5 percent
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>Do unpleasant encounters with dealer wannabes count?
I would say 95 percent of all the issues occur with the wannabe group. Underfunded, here today, gone tomorrow with no real recourse. I am in the wannabe group but I reside in the top 5 percent
I wouldn't call you a wannabe anything Mark. You make positive contributions both here and in the hobby.
My favorite definition of wannabe dealers is "guys that think having 3 month old photocopies of someone else's greysheet make them dealers, and that buying two of something is a wholesale purchase."
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Where to begin?
How about the LATEST bad experiences?
1) Well I mentioned before that my Cheerios Sacagawea coin I have for sale I called a few dealers and such. Most had never heard of the coin. One asked me about and seemed curious. I told him the story on the coin and about the Pattern. He then went on to tell me then the coin was obviously stolen from the Mint if it was a coin never meant to be released and I could get in trouble for trying to sell it. So if anybody here has a Cheerios Dollar-----the CIA is looking for you.
2) Back in April I went into a little Silver/Gold shop. Would not really classify it as ' coin shop' exactly. They had a 1801 Dollar for sale for $4500. I looked at it and went to the owner (Who I knew him but did not know him personally or anything) to tell him that his 1801 Dollar was fake. He got pissy and asked how I could know that from just looking thru a showcase and how coin collectors miss out on great coins because they always expect rare coins to be fake, yada, yada. I let him rant. Then told him I knew it was fake because his coin had 14 stars.
3) I've had this happen DOZENS of times. I had for sale a VF35 1895o Morgan. I had a dealer call me and I told him my price. He offered about 75% what I wanted him. I just put the coin for sale. When I put a coin(s) for sale I price it fair but not so that a dealer can flip it and make a profit. Why would I do that? I told him I respect him calling me and not being TOTALLY absurd with his price but being blunt-----I don't need to sell it, I know coins, and eventually a collector will buy it and I'll get more than a dealer could offer me and the buyer will get it cheaper than he could get from a dealer/Ebay.
An hour went by and I got a call. From the same dealer. I am a big Morgan Collector and he knew that from before. I answered and he proceeded to offer me my own coin for $75 more than my asking price as though he owned the coin. I laughed and told him he made my day and he should look at who he just called.
My dealer trying to take me for a lot more money story revolved around a rare seated coin I had bought raw at auction raw for $7.5K When it came back NGC MS64 I was in it around even. I had been hoping for a 65.
I resubmitted the coin to PCGS figuring it would come back no worse than 64. Nope, it came back 63 and I was buried if things stayed the way they were. I offered the coin at a steep discount to a dealer friend who knew the
previous grade. They sort of chuckled saying they wanted to pay $3,000. Couldn't blame them really. To save me the hassle of a separate shipment to NGC I gave him the coin to go in with his next order. At least if I got
it back to a 64 I'd be back to around even. It comes back a MS65 and now is worth arguably $15K (at that time a type coin was bid sight-unseen $10K). Imagine my surprise when my friend offers me $10K for it (it's now pop
1 for date - finest graded). His logic was that it was "really" a 63/64 coin and not worth more than $10K, especially since I paid $7500 for it. I drove the 2 hours to his business and we still couldn't reach an agreement. I think
he raised his offer to $12K. I took the coin home with me almost certain that I could get $15K in a heartbeat from someone else. The next day the first dealer I called on the coin was willing to pay $15K for it sight-unseen.
Coin was shipped out (was I really obligated to give my friend a right of refusal at $15K after he had tried twice to chisel me on it?). A few days later my dealer friend calls me and asks about the coin. I told him it was gone.
He was fuming that I had sold "OUR" coin "out from under him." I didn't realize that when someone submits a coin for you they become "partners" with you on all upgrades and that negotiations can last as long as it takes for them
to gain 100% ownership. I told the guy he should have offered a fairer price before I left with the coin. I took all the risks and put up all the money. Not content with losing out on "their score," they proceeded to call the other
dealer. They basically said I had improperly sold the coin out from under them and they demanded a 50% stake in the coin. Looks like it was worth $15K all along to them. As I recall, they got $18K for the coin so each
made $1500 on it. I didn't really mind that they tried to buy that coin as cheap as they could. But, what really got to me was essentially accusing me of having lousy business ethics in front of another dealer who I did business
with. In fact when they first offered me $10K for the coin I knew it was imperative to go up and get it right away. Fond memories of the "old days." Not that I miss them any.
<< <i>Planonit: getting called back by that same dealer takes the cake.
My dealer trying to take me for a lot more money story revolved around a rare seated coin I had bought raw at auction raw for $7.5K When it came back NGC MS64 I was in it around even. I had been hoping for a 65.
I resubmitted the coin to PCGS figuring it would come back no worse than 64. Nope, it came back 63 and I was buried if things stayed the way they were. I offered the coin at a steep discount to a dealer friend who knew the
previous grade. They sort of chuckled saying they wanted to pay $3,000. Couldn't blame them really. To save me the hassle of a separate shipment to NGC I gave him the coin to go in with his next order. At least if I got
it back to a 64 I'd be back to around even. It comes back a MS65 and now is worth arguably $15K (at that time a type coin was bid sight-unseen $10K). Imagine my surprise when my friend offers me $10K for it (it's now pop
1 for date - finest graded). His logic was that it was "really" a 63/64 coin and not worth more than $10K, especially since I paid $7500 for it. I drove the 2 hours to his business and we still couldn't reach an agreement. I think
he raised his offer to $12K. I took the coin home with me almost certain that I could get $15K in a heartbeat from someone else. The next day the first dealer I called on the coin was willing to pay $15K for it sight-unseen.
Coin was shipped out (was I really obligated to give my friend a right of refusal at $15K after he had tried twice to chisel me on it?). A few days later my dealer friend calls me and asks about the coin. I told him it was gone.
He was fuming that I had sold "OUR" coin "out from under him." I didn't realize that when someone submits a coin for you they become "partners" with you on all upgrades and that negotiations can last as long as it takes for them
to gain 100% ownership. I told the guy he should have offered a fairer price before I left with the coin. I took all the risks and put up all the money. Not content with losing out on "their score," they proceeded to call the other
dealer. They basically said I had improperly sold the coin out from under them and they demanded a 50% stake in the coin. Looks like it was worth $15K all along to them. As I recall, they got $18K for the coin so each
made $1500 on it. I didn't really mind that they tried to buy that coin as cheap as they could. But, what really got to me was essentially accusing me of having lousy business ethics in front of another dealer who I did business
with. In fact when they first offered me $10K for the coin I knew it was imperative to go up and get it right away. Fond memories of the "old days." Not that I miss them any. >>
Wow roadrunner. Just-wow. "Our" coin? Really? Talk about having guts...Dealer 1 IMO wasn't your "friend" by any definition I use. His only involvement was submitting the coin, something for which I assume he was paid. He probably felt that entitled him to first shot when it came back...and you did that. As far as I'm concerned, it's game over with him at that point when you leave with the coin.
And if I'm Dealer 2- the guy you sold the coin to for $15k- I'd consider it a straight up done deal made with the owner of the coin. Why would Dealer 2 agree to a profit split? If I'm him and this guy calls up out of nowhere demanding a cut of anything I make on the piece... let's say the conversation would be very short- perhaps all of two words.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I always find it annoying when i spot something Im really interested in buying and have a solid sense of the value. Then the Dealer quotes me a price that is totally laughable, but I keep my wits. Then I proceed to politely ask him how he came up with that price, and it's a story just a donk could possibly believe. He refuses to even listen to my justification and I end up walking. Bottom line, he has no interest in selling to anyone unless they're totally clueless. It's amazing how many Dealers get emotionally tied to their wares. >>
Read this in reverse to get a unpleasant customer encounter. The dealers price is the dealers price. You have two options, one of which is not to "educate" the dealer to your perspective on pricing unless he/she asks.
<< <i>I only had 1 really bad encounter. Back about 5 years ago I had an ANACS AU55 1932 D Washington and an NGC AU 53 1932 S Washington. I showed them to a Dealer for sale as a pair. He looked, and asked how much after I asked if he had any interest. I stated " $500 for the pair". He proceeded to just about throw them back at me.
I was instantly so angry at this uncalled for rudeness I almost came over the table to beat him senseless.
I routinely walk past his tables even to this day. What an asshat. >>
Uncalled for. He should have said something like "neat coins, but not for me" OR it would not have hurt to counter if he would have been within 10-15% of your ask.
<< <i>At the ANA WFOM last year I had a few gold ounces (less than 20) to sell to raise money for coins. Got an offer from a California dealer that was ~$30 over Silvertowne's offer, so I sold him about half of them. The next day, he told me he made a mistake and paid too much. He wanted to buy the rest for $100/ounce less. I politely but firmly declined. The idiot started cursing me out. I got away as quickly as I could and have warned people about him ever since. >>
The first time, he likely thought he was going to walk them over to Silvertowne for a quick flip...oops.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>The dude had garlic breath and mustard stains on his plaid shirt, but his suspenders made me realize he was cool. >>
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
A decade ago I was able to hit up a few Albuquerque coin shops while coaching a few decathletes at the Great Southwest Track Invitational. I had a few daytime hours and a rental car, so out I went. I went to one shop, spent about $600 on a couple Commems, went to another place where I bought a group of silver dollars as bulk that had some fun pieces, and finally ended up at a shop that was older and run by the stereotypical old codger who stayed open for the "buy" side and just had widgets. I politely looked around, mentioned my collecting specialties, and tried to find something to buy to just validate my time in his shop. I asked for anything he might have that was 'toned', and he said "Nothing like that here!". (That was the "rude" part.) I said thanks for his time, and headed for the door when he said, "hey -- wait a minute", and disappeared into his back room. 30 seconds later he said "here" and threw a 1969-S Proof Set at me. Yup. It skidded down the top of his glass cases a full 15 feet, bouncing over the gaps and trim until I picked it out of the air as it sailed off the end of the counter.
I opened up the blue Mint paper and looked at the most interesting proof set I still (years later) have ever seen. The 4 smaller denominations were toned in a typical rim fashion but were admittedly pretty (several dealers here in UT have commented they WANT them when I have tired of ownership), but the Kennedy. Oh.................................. The 40% Kennedy. The toning was something out of an AT specialists lurid psychotic dream. Problem was -- it was unquestionably REAL I asked, "How much?" He said, "Whaddya wanna pay?". I stammered for a while and went silent. He said, "It's $10." That was about double bid. I took it.
Fast forward two years.
I have had the set and thought I would take it to Long Beach, just on the off-chance I could screw up enough courage to maybe see if PCGS would certify the set. I spent some time at the show, and thought, "well, let's give this a go -- what is the worst that could happen -- David Hall bans me from the hobby for being a nerd?" I stood in line at the PCGS--David Hall courtesy grading line and slowly advanced, while my heartbeat rose. Finally . . .showtime!
I handed the set to Mr. Hall in the cardboard blue outer holder and just said, "Would these coins possibly grade?"
David Hall: (upon a cursory look at the inside plastic holder) $50?
Me: Um . . . . each?
David Hall: The set.
Me: All five coins?
David Hall: Yeah . . . (handing it to one of the slinky business suited chicks standing next to him). She wrote it up, got my addy, and my $50, while Mr. Hall scratched "DH" over the center of the submission form. (At that time certification was about $14 or so per coin, so it was a GOOD DEAL!)
Me: Thanks a million! (I turn and walk away . . .)
David Hall: Hey!
Me: (turning around at the right of the line) Yes?
David Hall: You realize you have a $2000 Kennedy in that set, right?
Me: (in shock) Um . . no, but thanks!
All five coins arrive not two weeks later. The Kennedy is still my centerpiece of my Toned Type Set.
That Albuquerque shop owner may have been the typical rude old codger, but he helped me out . . . . . . .
Drunner
<< <i>Down on page 5 of this thread I doubt more than one or two people will ever see this, but it is an interesting take on "rude".
A decade ago I was able to hit up a few Albuquerque coin shops while coaching a few decathletes at the Great Southwest Track Invitational. I had a few daytime hours and a rental car, so out I went. I went to one shop, spent about $600 on a couple Commems, went to another place where I bought a group of silver dollars as bulk that had some fun pieces, and finally ended up at a shop that was older and run by the stereotypical old codger who stayed open for the "buy" side and just had widgets. I politely looked around, mentioned my collecting specialties, and tried to find something to buy to just validate my time in his shop. I asked for anything he might have that was 'toned', and he said "Nothing like that here!". (That was the "rude" part.) I said thanks for his time, and headed for the door when he said, "hey -- wait a minute", and disappeared into his back room. 30 seconds later he said "here" and threw a 1969-S Proof Set at me. Yup. It skidded down the top of his glass cases a full 15 feet, bouncing over the gaps and trim until I picked it out of the air as it sailed off the end of the counter.
I opened up the blue Mint paper and looked at the most interesting proof set I still (years later) have ever seen. The 4 smaller denominations were toned in a typical rim fashion but were admittedly pretty (several dealers here in UT have commented they WANT them when I have tired of ownership), but the Kennedy. Oh.................................. The 40% Kennedy. The toning was something out of an AT specialists lurid psychotic dream. Problem was -- it was unquestionably REAL I asked, "How much?" He said, "Whaddya wanna pay?". I stammered for a while and went silent. He said, "It's $10." That was about double bid. I took it.
Fast forward two years.
I have had the set and thought I would take it to Long Beach, just on the off-chance I could screw up enough courage to maybe see if PCGS would certify the set. I spent some time at the show, and thought, "well, let's give this a go -- what is the worst that could happen -- David Hall bans me from the hobby for being a nerd?" I stood in line at the PCGS--David Hall courtesy grading line and slowly advanced, while my heartbeat rose. Finally . . .showtime!
I handed the set to Mr. Hall in the cardboard blue outer holder and just said, "Would these coins possibly grade?"
David Hall: (upon a cursory look at the inside plastic holder) $50?
Me: Um . . . . each?
David Hall: The set.
Me: All five coins?
David Hall: Yeah . . . (handing it to one of the slinky business suited chicks standing next to him). She wrote it up, got my addy, and my $50, while Mr. Hall scratched "DH" over the center of the submission form. (At that time certification was about $14 or so per coin, so it was a GOOD DEAL!)
Me: Thanks a million! (I turn and walk away . . .)
David Hall: Hey!
Me: (turning around at the right of the line) Yes?
David Hall: You realize you have a $2000 Kennedy in that set, right?
Me: (in shock) Um . . no, but thanks!
All five coins arrive not two weeks later. The Kennedy is still my centerpiece of my Toned Type Set.
That Albuquerque shop owner may have been the typical rude old codger, but he helped me out . . . . . . .
Drunner >>
Come on and show the pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Lets see it!!! Please????
Great story Drunner!
Lots of great stories here.... (Even if some are negative)
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Erik
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"