Some questions for CAC, since I have been away ...

Sunnywood · July 12, 2014 12:01PM

I sent the following e-mail to CAC, asking some questions about the meaning of the green sticker, and the standards applied to coins with "plus" grades, as well as other special designations such as copper color, cameo proofs, or strike designations. Here is the e-mail I sent ... I will follow up and post their reply when/if I get one.

Hi John & Co.,

I have recently returning to numismatics and collecting after a 5-6 year absence. When I was last involved in the hobby, CAC was just getting underway, and reviewed my entire “Sunnywood Toned Morgan Dollar Collection,” now part of the Simpson Collection.

Some time after I “went on vacation” from coins, PCGS introduced the plus grades. So my question is, does a green sticker on (for example) a PCGS MS65+ slab mean that the coin is solid for the 65+ grade? Or do you ignore the plus, and evaluate it as a 65, thus meaning the coin is sold for the 65 grade.

In other words, if you get two coins, one PCGS MS65, and one PCGS MS65+, do you apply the SAME grading standards to both of them, or is the “plus” coin held to a higher standard in order to get the CAC sticker.

If we say there are A, B and C quality coins for a given grade, I think PCGS intended the “plus” to refer to the A-quality coins for the grade, while CAC intended the green sticker to be for the A-quality and the B-quality coins. So if you sticker a 65+ does it have to be an A-quality coin??

In addition, how about other designations such as:

Copper color – RD, RB, BN
Cameo proofs – CAM, DCAM/UCAM
Strike designations – FH, FB, FBL

If a coin is PCGS MS65 RD and it has a green sticker, does that mean it is solid for the 65 grade AND solid for the Red designation?

If a coin is PCGS MS65 RD and you feel it is solid for the 65 grade, but has mellowed to low-end red or borderline red-brown, would you therefore not sticker the coin?

If a coin is PCGS PR65 CAM and it is green-stickered, does that mean it is solid for the 65 grade AND solid for the Cameo designation?

If you got a coin in a PCGS PR65 DCAM holder, and you felt it was really a solid 66, but it was not really a DCAM, but rather just a CAM … what would you do? Gold sticker? No sticker?

If you got a Standing Liberty quarter in a PCGS MS65 holder, and you felt it was solid for the 65 grade, but did not have a full strike on the head, would it get a green sticker? Would the result be any different if the same coin (without a full strike on the head) were in a PCGS MS65 FH holder?

If you got a Standing Liberty quarter in a PCGS MS65 holder, and you felt it was a lock 66 technically and in terms of eye appeal, but the head was only 75% struck up, would you gold sticker it?

Best,
Sunnywood

crypto79 · July 12, 2014 12:11PM

Cool premiss but I have always looked at them as a sticker of approval for their standards and that alone. Their standards are a total coin / marketability standard and it all comes into play even the holder I think. If they sticker the coin it simply means it is the type of coin they would like to market in with minimal to no (ya buts) be they ugly, scratched, over graded, strike ect. The published definitions are most likely a general quantification of JA standards which try to define something that isn't black and white. Goes back to the old porn definition: they know it when they see it.

Curious to see the response to such technical questions.

breakdown · July 12, 2014 12:52PM

Sunnywood,
It should be interesting to see the response but we know one answer. CAC has made clear that they ignore the + grading when deciding whether to sticker. They judge a 65 the same way they judge a 65+.

Shamika · July 12, 2014 12:59PM

Thanks for asking this question. I've wondered the same thing although I'm guessing CAC ignores the "+" grade.

lostincoins · July 12, 2014 1:28PM

I also am interested in the response if any.

lkeigwin · July 12, 2014 1:38PM

That would be a great Q&A for the CAC site.
Lance.

Broadstruck · July 12, 2014 2:09PM

CAC ignores the + and all FH, FB, FBL type designations.

Bochiman · July 12, 2014 2:10PM

<< CAC ignores the + and all FH, FB, FBL type designations. >>

....but not the PL and DMPLs......

tradedollarnut · July 12, 2014 2:14PM

<< CAC ignores the + and all FH, FB, FBL type designations. >>

This is incorrect

COALPORTER · July 12, 2014 2:19PM

<< CAC ignores the + and all FH, FB, FBL type designations. >>

What if the holder says FH, but most collectors would probably disagree, then
would CAC just refuse to sticker it ?

wondercoin · July 12, 2014 2:27PM

Some time after I “went on vacation” from coins, PCGS introduced the plus grades. So my question is, does a green sticker on (for example) a PCGS MS65+ slab mean that the coin is solid for the 65+ grade? Or do you ignore the plus, and evaluate it as a 65, thus meaning the coin is sold for the 65 grade.

I am under the impression that CAC ignores the +. So, an MS 65+ coin that gets a green sticker would mean coin is a decent MS65 but the coin was not evaluated for its standing as an MS65+.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Wondercoin

sawyerjosh · July 12, 2014 3:01PM

<< Some time after I “went on vacation” from coins, PCGS introduced the plus grades. So my question is, does a green sticker on (for example) a PCGS MS65+ slab mean that the coin is solid for the 65+ grade? Or do you ignore the plus, and evaluate it as a 65, thus meaning the coin is sold for the 65 grade.

I am under the impression that CAC ignores the +. So, an MS 65+ coin that gets a green sticker would mean coin is a decent MS65 but the coin was not evaluated for its standing as an MS65+.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Wondercoin >>

This is correct.

agentjim007 · July 12, 2014 3:12PM

That's a lot of thinking. Hope you don't blow a fuse.

Raybo · July 12, 2014 3:20PM

<< That's a lot of thinking. Hope you don't blow a fuse. >>

I agree, to many questions.

remumc · July 12, 2014 3:38PM

So a green CAC sticker on a 65 coin means it is solid for the grade, 65.5 or higher, but not a 66, otherwise it would have a gold CAC sticker? And on a 65+ coin, it would be just verifying the +, that it is a 65.5 or higher, but not a 66, otherwise it would have a gold CAC sticker? So with the CAC green sticker, and the + from PCGS, you basically have two sources of opinions than agree that the coin is solid for the grade and 65.5 or better, but not a 66, correct?

And that the green CAC sticker on a 65+ grade does not mean it is a lock 66, near 66 or anything better than a solid for the grade 65.5?

If you buy a + graded coin, PCGS says it's solid for the grade. If you buy a CAC green stickered coin, CAC says it's solid for the grade. So there should be little to no difference in price between the two, and again, little to no price difference if the coin has both.

That's how I'm reading it. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Of course, we all know I'm wrong! I have bought many green stickered CAC coins for waaay under + prices.

UncleJoe · July 12, 2014 8:19PM

<< 

<< CAC ignores the + and all FH, FB, FBL type designations. >>

This is incorrect >>

All or part?

Joe.

BillJones · July 12, 2014 11:22PM

<< CAC ignores the + and all FH, FB, FBL type designations. >>

I can see where CAC can ignore the "+," but I don't see how they could ignore FH with Standing Liberty quarters and FB with Mercury dimes. FBL on Franklin haves does not do much for me, but I know there collectors for them. Given how those things effect the value of coin, I can't see how CAC could not take those designations into account.

And yes, I've seen a few Standing Liberty quarters that were marked FH, that I thought fell short.

JJSingleton · July 12, 2014 11:36PM

<< Cool premiss but I have always looked at them as a sticker of approval for their standards and that alone. Their standards are a total coin / marketability standard and it all comes into play even the holder I think. If they sticker the coin it simply means it is the type of coin they would like to market in with minimal to no (ya buts) be they ugly, scratched, over graded, strike ect. The published definitions are most likely a general quantification of JA standards which try to define something that isn't black and white. Goes back to the old porn definition: they know it when they see it.

Curious to see the response to such technical questions. >>

I believe this is the correct answer. CAC was set up as a sight unseen market with a guarantee of buyback at published prices. It is all about market grading and I doubt anyone will ever be able to pin CAC down to technicals.

rkfish · July 12, 2014 11:37PM

TextI can see where CAC can ignore the "+," but I don't see how they could ignore FH with Standing Liberty quarters and FB with Mercury dimes. FBL on Franklin haves does not do much for me, but I know there collectors for them. Given how those things effect the value of coin, I can't see how CAC could not take those designations into account.

I agree, along with PL and DMPL designations on Morgan dollars but the answer will be interesting as I have always assumed they were.

georgiacop50 · July 13, 2014 12:21AM

<< CAC ignores the + and all FH, FB, FBL type designations. >>

Absolutely untrue! I am surprised at you Broadstruck!

If CAC ignored FBL (which, I assure you, they do NOT), then why the FBL reference set on the CAC website??

njcoincrank · July 13, 2014 12:29AM

Let me try and clarify this...

From my understanding a PCGS MS65+ is basically evaluated as a 65.7 or better.

A CAC stickered 65 is thought of as solid for the grade. MS65.5 or better.

When a coin doesn't get stickered, that does not mean that cac thinks the coin is overgraded. It simply means that it doesn't meet their (CAC) criteria for a 65.5 or better. Many, if not most, coins that don't sticker are properly graded; just not high end enough for a sticker.

CAC evaluates all designation on the label. FH, FBL, DMPL, etc. If they don't agree with the designation, no sticker.

Of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

njcc

tradedollarnut · July 13, 2014 12:52AM

awwww - what do YOU know.

VanHalen · July 13, 2014 1:06AM

<< Let me try and clarify this...

From my understanding a PCGS MS65+ is basically evaluated as a 65.7 or better.....

>>

Right off the bat PCGS said the + was for top 10% of the grade coins. i.e. 65.9 in your example. At least that's what they stated when the + thing started.....

dbcoin · July 13, 2014 1:13AM

<< 

<< Let me try and clarify this...

From my understanding a PCGS MS65+ is basically evaluated as a 65.7 or better.....

>>

Right off the bat PCGS said the + was for top 10% of the grade coins. i.e. 65.9 in your example. At least that's what they stated when the + thing started.....

>>

don't forget the bell curve, so it is 65.7 or better

roadrunner · July 13, 2014 1:28AM

<< Cool premiss but I have always looked at them as a sticker of approval for their standards and that alone. Their standards are a total coin / marketability standard and it all comes into play even the holder I think. If they sticker the coin it simply means it is the type of coin they would like to market in with minimal to no (ya buts) be they ugly, scratched, over graded, strike ect. The published definitions are most likely a general quantification of JA standards which try to define something that isn't black and white. Goes back to the old porn definition: they know it when they see it.

Curious to see the response to such technical questions. >>

Eggs...actly. Every coin gets evaluated with the pluses and minuses to arrive at a net score.

A green sticker means it's John Acceptable (JA) and really nothing else. They can claim it means that a 65 slabbed coin is from 65.4 to 66.3 quality or other such details. But, in the end, it means they will make an offer on that coin at their current buy levels. It doesn't state that their buy levels cannot change. No sticker means that it's not really a coin they'd want to place an offer on with their current system. Still, as coin dealers, they'd be willing to buy the coin at a lower grade/price level that meets their standards. It always comes down to what would someone pay.....not what is the technical grade. JA is not going to risk his neck on gold or green stickers unless the coin is pretty much 100%, especially where large spreads exist between grades. I see the gold sticker as more of a marketing tool similar to the + grade....only a lot tougher to make. If a "gold quality" coin made it to auction, it would in >90% of the cases bring next grade money, whether it had a gold sticker or not. It's been this was for decades. CAC just makes it easier for the collector to be on the winning end of such decisions.

NJCC stated that 65.5 is the min grade for a MS65 sticker. Guess I had that wrong. So that means 50% of the grading spectrum for each point is unacceptable (65.0 to 65.4). And the market has taken this "unacceptable" thing to quite an extreme, esp. with non-PCGS coins.

Sunnywood · July 13, 2014 2:08AM

We already knew as fact that if you divide the coins for a given whole numerical grade into A (premium quality, PQ, high end for the grade), B (solid for the grade, "no questions" etc), and C (correctly graded, but lower end for the grade), then the green sticker is intended to indicate that the coin is A or B, and not C. That much is stated clearly on the CAC website.

I believe the PCGS "+" is intended to denote only the "A" coins in the above scenario.

Anyway when I get a response from CAC, I will put up the answers here.

I'm just trying to help everyone understand the green sticker in today's complicated world of "PCGS MS65+ RB CAC" coins etc.

I think as a collector, and a buyer, I am always happy to have an affirming second opinion. I just want to be clear on what it means.

Best,
Sunnywood

wondercoin · July 13, 2014 2:16AM

"From my understanding a PCGS MS65+ is basically evaluated as a 65.7 or better."

This would be news to me. Sunnywood... I look forward to reading the answer to this specific question when you get an answer from CAC.

Wondercoin

Catbert · July 13, 2014 2:26AM

<< I'm just trying to help everyone understand the green sticker in today's complicated world of "PCGS MS65+ RB CAC" coins etc.

I think as a collector, and a buyer, I am always happy to have an affirming second opinion. I just want to be clear on what it means. >>

I think CAC could do a much better job explaining their service and to help correct the tremendous and repeated amount of misinformation existing. I think they could put some effort into updating their website FAQ for the benefit of the hobby.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 13, 2014 2:42AM

Cannot speak for anyone or any entity, but it's nice to read you again, and see the consistency in your approach to collecting. Seeing the coin first is paramount to having one that pleases the "collector" who's acquiring it. And each entity (individual or corporate) attached by their "brand" to that coin is equally (not just financially , per se) vested and interested in it's importance, as numismatics is concerned. (why would PCGS offer a bounty on labels ? ) Or, why would any stake their "model" for the brand, as "solid for the grade" ? And there's no question about ATS. (not for me, anyway… as to who runs the show)

tahoe98 · July 13, 2014 4:26AM

<< That would be a great Q&A for the CAC site.
Lance. >>

...ditto..

DonWillis · July 13, 2014 5:08AM

Ladies & Gentlemen:

I believe every collector should work with a trusted dealer or two. Listen and learn. JA is one of the best.

I respect JA and do not think that his opinions have hurt PCGS in any way. Actually they have confirmed the quality and consistency of PCGS grading.

It's great to have John's expert and vigilant eyes, as well as those of others, scanning the market and helping us identify problem coins. Other dealers offer their own stickers for coins they believe warrant it. They may not have done as well as John at marketing their services but they still offer their opinion. As always every PCGS coin is backed up by the PCGS guarantee.

But ... this is a PCGS forum, not a CAC forum, or any other grading service. Read the rules.

Some questions for CAC, since I have been away ...

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