<< <i>How are they planning to enforce transactions over it's borders? They can't. It's not like Minnesota is going to send the police after me in Arizona for shipping coins to customers in MN. The way I see it, it's completely unenforceable for out of state dealers and there's nothing they can do about it other than try to scare dealers & customers into compliance. >>
They would file a Federal Lawsuit in Minnesota...go ahead and not show up and see what happens. This is more serious then the way you see it.
The fact of the matter is that we are the political figures boss and we should demand that they get the laws right and target those who deserve to be targeted and leave the good guys alone. This law just shows how ignorant our politicians are when it comes to making the laws. From what I've read if they make strict requirements on coins that have 1% precious metal content because they cant discern between 91.67% gold and 99.99% gold coins, then we have a problem with our political figures.
Remember, it is YOU that is the political figures boss! It is YOU that can do something about this and get them to make the appropriate corrections to this law, which I have to admit did mean well.
I am not intending to make a controversial post but here is my thought on the topic:
The NRA fights for the rights of gun owners across the country and are quite successful at defending the 2nd amendment. We have an organization that represents the numismatic community called the ANA. I think this could be an awesome opportunity for the ANA to step in and actually make a difference. They should have the political clout to at least be heard in Minnesota. I propose the ANA Board of Governors send a representative to the state capital in Minnesota armed with the inherent problems this law creates. They could also provide suggested amendments that would satisfy the numismatic community.
I hear so many people say that the ANA is a waste of money. This is the type of thing I would like to see the ANA spend some time and effort on. Protecting the hobby.
ICTA is very much involved in monitoring the situation. Former ICTA chairman and Minnesota dealer Gary Adkins has been working to at the very least make the law more realistic. The attorney general of MN would have none of it and pushed it through as it is. ICTA continues to do whatever it can to protect the political well being of our industry.
<< <i>How are they planning to enforce transactions over it's borders? They can't. It's not like Minnesota is going to send the police after me in Arizona for shipping coins to customers in MN. The way I see it, it's completely unenforceable for out of state dealers and there's nothing they can do about it other than try to scare dealers & customers into compliance. >>
They would file a Federal Lawsuit in Minnesota...go ahead and not show up and see what happens. This is more serious then the way you see it. >>
No, the MN Commerce Department or MN Attorney General would file a lawsuit in Minnesota State court, since they would be accusing him of violating a state law. He could then respond by filing a Federal lawsuit saying the law is unconstitutional. The law would then be struck down, and Minnesota would likely have to pay all the attorney fees. The only thing that would be at question, is which constitutional principle the courts decided to strike it down under. They would have at least four different principles to choose from.
<< <i>Consumers also need to use some common sense and investigate before they invest. That is true of any investment from stocks, bonds and other financial instruments to land, diamonds and coins. >>
Yes, but stockbrokers need to pass the FINRA Series 7 exam and be licensed. Should coin dealers also need to be licensed?
It does seems like these dealers are depriving people of their life savings.
<< <i>ICTA is very much involved in monitoring the situation. Former ICTA chairman and Minnesota dealer Gary Adkins has been working to at the very least make the law more realistic. The attorney general of MN would have none of it and pushed it through as it is. ICTA continues to do whatever it can to protect the political well being of our industry. >>
That is a great start and I am glad to hear a national organization has been involved. I still think it would benefit the collecting community to have the ANA in the discussion also. The more organizations that get involved, the louder the voice. This is the type of thing the ANA needs to get involved with.
<< <i>How are they planning to enforce transactions over it's borders? They can't. It's not like Minnesota is going to send the police after me in Arizona for shipping coins to customers in MN. The way I see it, it's completely unenforceable for out of state dealers and there's nothing they can do about it other than try to scare dealers & customers into compliance. >>
They would file a Federal Lawsuit in Minnesota...go ahead and not show up and see what happens. This is more serious then the way you see it. >>
They can't file a federal lawsuit for a violation of a state law. They could only file a lawsuit in Minnesota. Good luck trying to extradite someone to MN for a failure to fill out paperwork.
Out of state coin dealers can tell MN to pound salt.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
the pen is mightier than the sword and the revolt is more powerful than all weapons of mass destruction, and none of those nourish or feed the children.
<< <i>Consumers also need to use some common sense and investigate before they invest. That is true of any investment from stocks, bonds and other financial instruments to land, diamonds and coins. >>
Yes, but stockbrokers need to pass the FINRA Series 7 exam and be licensed. Should coin dealers also need to be licensed?
It does seems like these dealers are depriving people of their life savings. >>
If you think coin dealers should be licensed, that is fine, but don't you think that should be a Federal issue, like it is with Stock brokers license you just mentioned?
Also, I would challenge the idea that coin dealers need to be licensed at all. Of all the examples the MN Attorney General used of corrupt coin dealers, not a single one of them escaped justice. They were all prosecuted under existing State and or Federal fraud statutes. It has never been legal to promise someone a coin, take there money, and not deliver the coin, or on the flip side to take some one's coins and not give them the promised money.
As, further evidence this was not about getting crooked dealers, a representative from the Attorney Generals office said that none of the problems came from brick an Mortar coin shops, or any in-person transactions for that matter. So why is the law regulating in person transactions???
This law was never really about consumer protection, it was about protecting the business of some big in-state telemarketers, at the expense of big out-state companies, and smaller in-state companies. I know some Minnesota dealers that just love this new law they see it as a barrier to entry into the Minnesota market. They got there license and are anxious to see how much more business they get when all the small operators fold up shop, and the big out of state companies stop doing business with Minnesota customers.
This has also happened to us in Dothan, Alabama at a show years ago by the local county tax man. It ruined there local coin show and no other coin shows have been there since.
Pete Whitt Pete's Collectibles PO Box 338 Valrico, Fl 33595 www.pccoins.com
<< <i>This law was never really about consumer protection, it was about protecting the business of some big in-state telemarketers, at the expense of big out-state companies, and smaller in-state companies. I know some Minnesota dealers that just love this new law they see it as a barrier to entry into the Minnesota market. They got there license and are anxious to see how much more business they get when all the small operators fold up shop, and the big out of state companies stop doing business with Minnesota customers. >>
Yes, quite often bills like this that are said to be for "consumer protection" are really designed to restrain trade so that certain favorite businesses will gain a competitive advantage.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
This has also happened to us in Dothan, Alabama at a show years ago by the local county tax man
The tax people showed up to several MN local shows within the last year. It was an unpleasant visit for a few, but for most dealers it was not an issue.
<< <i>I am not intending to make a controversial post but here is my thought on the topic:
The NRA fights for the rights of gun owners across the country and are quite successful at defending the 2nd amendment. We have an organization that represents the numismatic community called the ANA. I think this could be an awesome opportunity for the ANA to step in and actually make a difference. They should have the political clout to at least be heard in Minnesota. I propose the ANA Board of Governors send a representative to the state capital in Minnesota armed with the inherent problems this law creates. They could also provide suggested amendments that would satisfy the numismatic community.
I hear so many people say that the ANA is a waste of money. This is the type of thing I would like to see the ANA spend some time and effort on. Protecting the hobby. >>
Wonder who they should send?
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>Consumers also need to use some common sense and investigate before they invest. That is true of any investment from stocks, bonds and other financial instruments to land, diamonds and coins. >>
Yes, but stockbrokers need to pass the FINRA Series 7 exam and be licensed. Should coin dealers also need to be licensed?
It does seems like these dealers are depriving people of their life savings. >>
So a series 7 prevents stock brokers from ripping off customers? Did Bernie Madoff have a series 7? What measures were passed by the securities industry (and state of MN) that will prevent another Madoff scam? I won't be surprised if the answer is "nothing." If coin dealers need to be "licensed" then we sure as heck should be starting to license our elected govt officials, especially since they propose and approve laws in numerous areas.
I'd suggest the state of MN go after the businesses where there is 100X as much fraud as there is in coins (ie stocks, bonds, currencies, antiques/art, jewelry, real estate, new and used automobiles-boats, home improvement, etc.)
I suspect that MN had >$100 billion of dollars in real estate fraud from 2004-2008. Did they even successfully prosecute a single banker or broker because of the real estate financal crisis? Did they pass any new laws?
In 100 words or less tell me how this new law is going to cut down on numismatic and bullion coin fraud. Have tightening gun registration laws kept guns out of the hands of crooks and gangs? You can't regulate lack of common sense or a failure to do perform one's due diilgence. These same people believe probably everything a used car dealer, life insurance salesman, or estate attorney tells them too. Someone will get their money.
Derryb, who should they send? I would say Gary Adkins. Oh wait he WAS there. Not because of ICTA or the ANA board but because he is a prominent MN dealer. Gary Adkins was there fighting tooth and nail the whole type but there was no stopping this. The ANA cannot fight political battles otherwise it would risk losing it's completely non-profit status. ICTA, CERT and the G+S PAC are able to work in political spheres because they are created in such a way that allows it. That is why donations to said organizations are not 100% tax deductible as legally required.
<< <i>Derryb, who should they send? I would say Gary Adkins. Oh wait he WAS there. Not because of ICTA or the ANA board but because he is a prominent MN dealer. Gary Adkins was there fighting tooth and nail the whole type but there was no stopping this. The ANA cannot fight political battles otherwise it would risk losing it's completely non-profit status. ICTA, CERT and the G+S PAC are able to work in political spheres because they are created in such a way that allows it. That is why donations to said organizations are not 100% tax deductible as legally required. >>
I have worked for organizations who donations were 100% tax deductible non-profits with federal and state charters. The leadership of these organizations spent the majority of their time working with legislators on the federal and state level to ensure that they were represented. This included visits to state and local capitals to meet with legislators.
The straw man argument that the ANA cannot meet with federal or state legislators to discuss numismatic legislation is not accurate in my opinion as I have seen first hand the opposite to be true in other industries. The ANA should stand up for its membership and this is the perfect opportunity. Contrary to public opinion, I think the ANA was designed to discuss issues like this with legislators as stated in section 3 of its federal charter.
I applaud Gary Adkins, the ICTA and the others who have fought tooth and nail. All I am suggesting is that the ANA step up and support collectors and members in this important fight. 28,000 membership has weight in the political arena both state and federal.
<< <i>Derryb, who should they send? I would say Gary Adkins. Oh wait he WAS there. Not because of ICTA or the ANA board but because he is a prominent MN dealer. Gary Adkins was there fighting tooth and nail the whole type but there was no stopping this. The ANA cannot fight political battles otherwise it would risk losing it's completely non-profit status. ICTA, CERT and the G+S PAC are able to work in political spheres because they are created in such a way that allows it. That is why donations to said organizations are not 100% tax deductible as legally required. >>
I have worked for organizations who donations were 100% tax deductible non-profits with federal and state charters. The leadership of these organizations spent the majority of their time working with legislators on the federal and state level to ensure that they were represented. This included visits to state and local capitals to meet with legislators.
The straw man argument that the ANA cannot meet with federal or state legislators to discuss numismatic legislation is not accurate in my opinion as I have seen first hand the opposite to be true in other industries. The ANA should stand up for its membership and this is the perfect opportunity. Contrary to public opinion, I think the ANA was designed to discuss issues like this with legislators as stated in section 3 of its federal charter.
I applaud Gary Adkins, the ICTA and the others who have fought tooth and nail. All I am suggesting is that the ANA step up and support collectors and members in this important fight. 28,000 membership has weight in the political arena both state and federal. >>
Thank you. If (and I have no idea if this is the case) that the ANA is not getting involved because they need to stay neutral as a non-profit is incorrect and cop out.
The ANA can do some political things but they cannot lobby or support specific candidates. What is the ANA supposed to do here? 28,000 members nationally is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Our numbers are not nearly big enough in any given state to even show up on the radar. That is why ICTA, CERT, and G+S PAC are so important because they are able to support candidates who are useful allies. Also, those organizations work together to harness connections individuals have in the political realm to better things for our industry. In the case of MN, we could have had all the money in the world and it would have done nothing. The AG wanted the law passed and she got it. Remember, we cannot compare ourselves to the NRA. They have millions of members including lots of politicians and lots of money.
<< <i>Derryb, who should they send? I would say Gary Adkins. Oh wait he WAS there. Not because of ICTA or the ANA board but because he is a prominent MN dealer. Gary Adkins was there fighting tooth and nail the whole type but there was no stopping this. The ANA cannot fight political battles otherwise it would risk losing it's completely non-profit status. ICTA, CERT and the G+S PAC are able to work in political spheres because they are created in such a way that allows it. That is why donations to said organizations are not 100% tax deductible as legally required. >>
I don't know how the ANA is structured, but I do know that this battle does not have to be a political battle, it could be a legal battle. There is a difference as far as the IRS is concerned. If I remember correctly, recently the ANA setup a legal defense fund when that internal dispute was going on. Also, I believe there is a comic book legal defense fund that is setup as a non-profit and donations to it are tax deductible. We need something like what the comic book collectors have.
The best bet at getting rid of this law is a legal challenge. Politically, you are not likely to get the law repealed any time soon. Even if the opposite party takes over the MN House (very likely) and the Governorship (toss up) this year, the MN State Senate is not up for re-election until 2016. Minnesota Numismatics could be extinct by then.
BTW - a number of years ago a similar thing happened to the video game industry. The MN Attorney General pushed and got passed a blatantly unconstitutional law against them. As soon as the law was passed the video game industry filed a federal lawsuit, and they had a temporary injunction in place within 60 days. The video game industry ultimately won so the injunction became permanent. The State of Minnesota was also required to pay all of their legal fees.
Correct, non-profits cannot support specific candidates. However, they can support or oppose certain political causes. The NRA supports gun rights causes without directly supporting politicians just as Planned Parenthood supports abortion without directly supporting politicians. How or what they could do is a different question, though I don't know if just saying, "gee, this is a tough problem, let's sit this one out" doesn't exactly inspire the members. Again, I don't know what if anything they did, so I could be off base here.
<< <i>The NRA supports gun rights causes without directly supporting politicians >>
That is not exactly true. I remember in 2008 the NRA endorsed Harry Reid for re-election to the Senate. When they called me for a contribution to their political fund, I told them to go pound salt because of that. I knew why they endorsed him, but the reason they did make look as dumb as a bag of hammers from the political perspective. To be specific they fell for a very transparent, well publicized yea vote that Harry took on a pro-gun bill that he knew had no chance of passing.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>The NRA supports gun rights causes without directly supporting politicians >>
That is not exactly true. I remember in 2008 the NRA endorsed Harry Reid for re-election to the Senate. When they called me for a contribution to their political fund, I told them to go pound salt because of that. I knew why they endorsed him, but the reason they did make look as dumb as a bag of hammers from the political perspective. To be specific they fell for a very transparent, well publicized yea vote that Harry took on a pro-gun bill that he knew had no chance of passing. >>
Are you sure it was the NRA and not the separate more political arm that is a 501-C6 which is allowed to lobby and support politicians. They are under the same roof but organized in such a way that they are not the NRA proper. Edited to add the organization is known as the ILA (Institute for Legislative Action)
<< <i>The NRA supports gun rights causes without directly supporting politicians >>
That is not exactly true. I remember in 2008 the NRA endorsed Harry Reid for re-election to the Senate. When they called me for a contribution to their political fund, I told them to go pound salt because of that. I knew why they endorsed him, but the reason they did make look as dumb as a bag of hammers from the political perspective. To be specific they fell for a very transparent, well publicized yea vote that Harry took on a pro-gun bill that he knew had no chance of passing. >>
Are you sure it was the NRA and not the separate more political arm that is a 501-C6 which is allowed to lobby and support politicians. They are under the same roof but organized in such a way that they are not the NRA proper. >>
They identified themselves as "The NRA" when they came looking for money. If the wall is that thin between the two, does it really matter?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>Correct, non-profits cannot support specific candidates. However, they can support or oppose certain political causes. The NRA supports gun rights causes without directly supporting politicians just as Planned Parenthood supports abortion without directly supporting politicians. How or what they could do is a different question, though I don't know if just saying, "gee, this is a tough problem, let's sit this one out" doesn't exactly inspire the members. Again, I don't know what if anything they did, so I could be off base here. >>
An important thing to remember is this is not over yet. We can also say for sure that Gary Atkins has been working tirelessly opposing this law. As we all know he has been a long time advocate for our hobby/Industry. Former president of the PNG, he is also on the board of Governors, and the board of Directors for ITCA. As a prominent Minnesota Dealer, he has been leading the charge on this. Ultimately though, it will require all of us from dealers, collectors, and industry groups coming together to defeat this thing.
Does this now mean that Heritage (and other auction firms) will be unable to allow people from Minnesota to bid on their silver/gold/platinum lots without first registering with the state of Minnesota?
One thing that bothers me is that when politicians see something like this and note that their out of state colleagues got away with it, that they will want to follow in their footsteps. When I lived in Massachusetts and California passed a law, you could bet that the pols in the Bay State would often follow suit.
This Hard Times Token symbolizes the situation.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>Correct, non-profits cannot support specific candidates. However, they can support or oppose certain political causes. The NRA supports gun rights causes without directly supporting politicians just as Planned Parenthood supports abortion without directly supporting politicians. How or what they could do is a different question, though I don't know if just saying, "gee, this is a tough problem, let's sit this one out" doesn't exactly inspire the members. Again, I don't know what if anything they did, so I could be off base here. >>
An important thing to remember is this is not over yet. We can also say for sure that Gary Atkins has been working tirelessly opposing this law. As we all know he has been a long time advocate for our hobby/Industry. Former president of the PNG, he is also on the board of Governors, and the board of Directors for ITCA. As a prominent Minnesota Dealer, he has been leading the charge on this. Ultimately though, it will require all of us from dealers, collectors, and industry groups coming together to defeat this thing. >>
Very true. And I will tip my hat to Gary and all the efforts he is making. Let's all do what we can to fight this, which then brings up the next question. What can a random collector who doesn't live in Minnesota effectively do?
If Nebraska can, through a grass roots movement, get our Governor to sign LB867 into law, abolishing the sales tax on coin and bullion, it stands to reason there are states concerned about the survival of a fragile part of our eco-system. (just saying… I know that sounds 'corny')
<< <i>Does this now mean that Heritage (and other auction firms) will be unable to allow people from Minnesota to bid on their silver/gold/platinum lots without first registering with the state of Minnesota? >>
The lobbyist for ebay was effective in getting an exemption for auctioneers, when they do not take ownership of the coins. Now I don't know if you sell through Heritage or ebay to someone in Minnesota if you need al license or not. There is a lot of vagueness in the law. One of the many Constitutional principles the law violates.
Also, we did have some small wins when the law was going though the legislature. One of the wins was an exemption for "occasional trade shows." So if you come into town for the Northwest show, and the MOON show you have nothing to worry about. Although there has been a lot of confusion on what "occasional" means to us local show only dealers. The guidance we have gotten from the Minnesota Department of Commerce has been, look in the dictionary for the definition of "occasional." This seems like a textbook example of a statue violating our due process rights, by being unconstitutionally vague.
You have a profitable bullion telemarketing business but all those pesky "We buy gold" places spring up and start cutting into your buying profits. The local coin dealers are also selling silver and gold they get in fairly cheaply, also cutting into your profits as a bullion telemarketer.
You donate $25K to a state Senator and get some people to complain about shady bullion dealers. You offer to help the Senator craft a bill to put onerous rules in place - ones that you can afford to abide by, but the small guys can't. Promote the bill in the name of "public safety". Anyone who fights against this public safety bill is labeled a shady dealer and is suspect in the eyes of the legislature. They won't listen to you.
The bill becomes law and soon all your pesky competition is gone.
How can you fight this? Not easy. You can't pressure the Legislators much as they are on the side of "public safety". Who would vote against that?
I suppose I understand the "in-state transaction" portion of this crazy law, and I suppose I understand the mail order/online aspects, but at the risk of sounding dense, I'm still not understanding how the State of Minnesota could possibly even have any knowledge, much less any control, over what one of its citizens buys when they are PHYSICALLY outside the state at a dealer, show, etc. Short of the individual or the dealer with whom they're doing business notifying the Minnesota authorities, which would be the height of stupidity, there's no way they could possibly know.
<< <i>I suppose I understand the "in-state transaction" portion of this crazy law, and I suppose I understand the mail order/online aspects, but at the risk of sounding dense, I'm still not understanding how the State of Minnesota could possibly even have any knowledge, much less any control, over what one of its citizens buys when they are PHYSICALLY outside the state at a dealer, show, etc. Short of the individual or the dealer with whom they're doing business notifying the Minnesota authorities, which would be the height of stupidity, there's no way they could possibly know. >>
I think in a lot of states you are supposed to remit sales tax on any retail purchases you buy out of state. It's hardly enforceable and I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.
I think in a lot of states you are supposed to remit sales tax on any retail purchases you buy out of state. It's hardly enforceable and I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.
I think they collect it on car transactions from out of state. I bought a computer from Dell a few years ago and they made me pay sales tax.
<< <i>I think in a lot of states you are supposed to remit sales tax on any retail purchases you buy out of state. It's hardly enforceable and I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.
I think they collect it on car transactions from out of state. I bought a computer from Dell a few years ago and they made me pay sales tax. >>
Wait until your state figures out a way to data mine your credit card transactions, or the states get together on a group effort to do so . . . .
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
Successful, problem free and pleasant transactions with: illini420, coinguy1, weather11am,wayneherndon,wondercoin,Topdollarpaid,Julian, bishdigg,seateddime, peicesofme,ajia,CoinRaritiesOnline,savoyspecial,Boom, TorinoCobra71, ModernCoinMart, WTCG, slinc, Patches, Gerard, pocketpiececommems, BigJohnD, RickMilauskas, mirabella, Smittys, LeeG, TomB, DeusExMachina, tydye
I have had some dealings in the financial planning industry. I also dabble in coins. The financial planning industry has resisted every effort to regulate or restrict it. Many of you seem to be the same way. In the financial planning industry, after the banking crisis, many wanted to pass the following law. Essentially, nobody selling securities should have a conflict of interest in the recommendation of securities. In other words, if a broker is telling some clients that a stock is a dog then he cannot push that stock on to his less desireable clients. Same thing should apply to mortgage paper. Most people I talk to ASSUME that this law is already in effect. I mean, we trust our financial advisors, don't we? Well, there was such an upheaval from the industry, that this law cannot pass. I come in contact with a lot of people who have money from a 401k or Widows who are not versed in the rules of investing. They routinely get taken advantage of by the industry. Some of these people are our mothers and our sisters. The liberals say a conflict of interest in selling investments is unacceptable. Conservatives seem to say the free market will win out. If your mom lost $300,000 to a major brokerage firm or financial planning firm I would be outraged.... How bout you guys? So to the issue at hand.... when I was a younger man I bought some coins from someone who assured me I'd make money. I was ripped off. Now I know better. I have to say, some of you coin dealers only seem to be able to see your own wallets. From where I sit, I'd rather see more laws against fraud in the coin industry, as I believe there has been rampant fraud in this industry. It ought to be ok to have regulations. I'd would rather see too many than too few. Like so many things, do we want the wild west or do we want a civilized society that cares about the helpless and innocent. I know any good republican will have to disagree with me on this. That's ok. I just care more about consumers than many businesses do.
<< <i>I have had some dealings in the financial planning industry. I also dabble in coins. The financial planning industry has resisted every effort to regulate or restrict it. Many of you seem to be the same way. In the financial planning industry, after the banking crisis, many wanted to pass the following law. Essentially, nobody selling securities should have a conflict of interest in the recommendation of securities. In other words, if a broker is telling some clients that a stock is a dog then he cannot push that stock on to his less desireable clients. Same thing should apply to mortgage paper. Most people I talk to ASSUME that this law is already in effect. I mean, we trust our financial advisors, don't we? Well, there was such an upheaval from the industry, that this law cannot pass. I come in contact with a lot of people who have money from a 401k or Widows who are not versed in the rules of investing. They routinely get taken advantage of by the industry. Some of these people are our mothers and our sisters. The liberals say a conflict of interest in selling investments is unacceptable. Conservatives seem to say the free market will win out. If your mom lost $300,000 to a major brokerage firm or financial planning firm I would be outraged.... How bout you guys? So to the issue at hand.... when I was a younger man I bought some coins from someone who assured me I'd make money. I was ripped off. Now I know better. I have to say, some of you coin dealers only seem to be able to see your own wallets. From where I sit, I'd rather see more laws against fraud in the coin industry, as I believe there has been rampant fraud in this industry. It ought to be ok to have regulations. I'd would rather see too many than too few. Like so many things, do we want the wild west or do we want a civilized society that cares about the helpless and innocent. I know any good republican will have to disagree with me on this. That's ok. I just care more about consumers than many businesses do. >>
Sounds like the old "more gun laws will keep criminals from killing with guns" arguement. What's wrong with enforcing current laws to protect people whether it is about guns, investment advice or coins? More laws will not fix a problem that lack of enforcement of current law cannot fix just as more taxes will not fix a problem that lack of fiscal responsibility cannot fix. This topic is just another attempt to over regulate, create over regulation revenues, and worst yet, have someone else do the job of public servants who can't do their job. You forgot about us libertarians.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>I have had some dealings in the financial planning industry. I also dabble in coins. The financial planning industry has resisted every effort to regulate or restrict it. Many of you seem to be the same way. In the financial planning industry, after the banking crisis, many wanted to pass the following law. Essentially, nobody selling securities should have a conflict of interest in the recommendation of securities. In other words, if a broker is telling some clients that a stock is a dog then he cannot push that stock on to his less desireable clients. Same thing should apply to mortgage paper. Most people I talk to ASSUME that this law is already in effect. I mean, we trust our financial advisors, don't we? Well, there was such an upheaval from the industry, that this law cannot pass. I come in contact with a lot of people who have money from a 401k or Widows who are not versed in the rules of investing. They routinely get taken advantage of by the industry. Some of these people are our mothers and our sisters. The liberals say a conflict of interest in selling investments is unacceptable. Conservatives seem to say the free market will win out. If your mom lost $300,000 to a major brokerage firm or financial planning firm I would be outraged.... How bout you guys? So to the issue at hand.... when I was a younger man I bought some coins from someone who assured me I'd make money. I was ripped off. Now I know better. I have to say, some of you coin dealers only seem to be able to see your own wallets. From where I sit, I'd rather see more laws against fraud in the coin industry, as I believe there has been rampant fraud in this industry. It ought to be ok to have regulations. I'd would rather see too many than too few. Like so many things, do we want the wild west or do we want a civilized society that cares about the helpless and innocent. I know any good republican will have to disagree with me on this. That's ok. I just care more about consumers than many businesses do. >>
The odds of your mom or relative losing $300K to scammers or sheisters in stocks, bonds, real estate, antiques, art, real estate, etc. is a lot higher than losing $300K in coins or bullion. Go regulate all those guys first, then come back to take care of the coin and bullion dealers. I'd rather see laws against fraud of all types in our finanical and real estate industries truly enforced. No one seems to have gone to jail for the tens of $TRILLIONs of financial fraud that occurred from 2002-2009.....all except Bernie and Martha Stewart. If we can't prosecute the guys that cost the country tens of $TRILLIONs in fraud (Fannie, Freddie, AIG, Lehman, BSC, JPM, Citigroup, Corzine-MF Global) why are we even bothering with the coin and bullion dealers who are insignificant in comparison? Heck, we can at least say we got Martha Stewart and made a play for Phil Mickelson....lol. During the 1980's S&L crisis regulator Bill Black prosecuted thousands of individual and incarcerated many of them. Even 5 sitting senators got into deep hot water. Why not a single soul this time around in a fraud that's probably 5,000X as large as the S&L crisis? So there's rampant fraud in the coin industry that requires immediate action to right the ship and save the state...... but nothing like that at all in the financial, securities, and derivative's industries?
Thanks for alerting folks to this, Bill. From a cursory look, it appears to be well intentioned, but grossly misdirected and just plain stupid. Hope it gets repealed.
Comments
Coins for Sale: Both Graded and Ungraded
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oqym2YtcS7ZAZ73D6
<< <i>How are they planning to enforce transactions over it's borders? They can't. It's not like Minnesota is going to send the police after me in Arizona for shipping coins to customers
in MN. The way I see it, it's completely unenforceable for out of state dealers and there's nothing they can do about it other than try to scare dealers & customers into compliance. >>
They would file a Federal Lawsuit in Minnesota...go ahead and not show up and see what happens. This is more serious then the way you see it.
Remember, it is YOU that is the political figures boss! It is YOU that can do something about this and get them to make the appropriate corrections to this law, which I have to admit did mean well.
The NRA fights for the rights of gun owners across the country and are quite successful at defending the 2nd amendment. We have an organization that represents the numismatic community called the ANA. I think this could be an awesome opportunity for the ANA to step in and actually make a difference. They should have the political clout to at least be heard in Minnesota. I propose the ANA Board of Governors send a representative to the state capital in Minnesota armed with the inherent problems this law creates. They could also provide suggested amendments that would satisfy the numismatic community.
I hear so many people say that the ANA is a waste of money. This is the type of thing I would like to see the ANA spend some time and effort on. Protecting the hobby.
<< <i>
<< <i>How are they planning to enforce transactions over it's borders? They can't. It's not like Minnesota is going to send the police after me in Arizona for shipping coins to customers
in MN. The way I see it, it's completely unenforceable for out of state dealers and there's nothing they can do about it other than try to scare dealers & customers into compliance. >>
They would file a Federal Lawsuit in Minnesota...go ahead and not show up and see what happens. This is more serious then the way you see it. >>
No, the MN Commerce Department or MN Attorney General would file a lawsuit in Minnesota State court, since they would be accusing him of violating a state law. He could then respond by filing a Federal lawsuit saying the law is unconstitutional. The law would then be struck down, and Minnesota would likely have to pay all the attorney fees. The only thing that would be at question, is which constitutional principle the courts decided to strike it down under. They would have at least four different principles to choose from.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
<< <i>Consumers also need to use some common sense and investigate before they invest. That is true of any investment from stocks, bonds and other financial instruments to land, diamonds and coins. >>
Yes, but stockbrokers need to pass the FINRA Series 7 exam and be licensed. Should coin dealers also need to be licensed?
It does seems like these dealers are depriving people of their life savings.
<< <i>ICTA is very much involved in monitoring the situation. Former ICTA chairman and Minnesota dealer Gary Adkins has been working to at the very least make the law more realistic. The attorney general of MN would have none of it and pushed it through as it is. ICTA continues to do whatever it can to protect the political well being of our industry. >>
That is a great start and I am glad to hear a national organization has been involved. I still think it would benefit the collecting community to have the ANA in the discussion also. The more organizations that get involved, the louder the voice. This is the type of thing the ANA needs to get involved with.
<< <i>
<< <i>How are they planning to enforce transactions over it's borders? They can't. It's not like Minnesota is going to send the police after me in Arizona for shipping coins to customers
in MN. The way I see it, it's completely unenforceable for out of state dealers and there's nothing they can do about it other than try to scare dealers & customers into compliance. >>
They would file a Federal Lawsuit in Minnesota...go ahead and not show up and see what happens. This is more serious then the way you see it. >>
They can't file a federal lawsuit for a violation of a state law. They could only file a lawsuit in Minnesota. Good luck trying to extradite someone to MN for a failure to fill out paperwork.
Out of state coin dealers can tell MN to pound salt.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>there are always loopholes in laws >>
the pen is mightier than the sword and the revolt is more powerful than all weapons of mass destruction, and none of those nourish or feed the children.
Legislators legislate in a thieve's den.
Edit to add an apostrophe
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>Consumers also need to use some common sense and investigate before they invest. That is true of any investment from stocks, bonds and other financial instruments to land, diamonds and coins. >>
Yes, but stockbrokers need to pass the FINRA Series 7 exam and be licensed. Should coin dealers also need to be licensed?
It does seems like these dealers are depriving people of their life savings. >>
If you think coin dealers should be licensed, that is fine, but don't you think that should be a Federal issue, like it is with Stock brokers license you just mentioned?
Also, I would challenge the idea that coin dealers need to be licensed at all. Of all the examples the MN Attorney General used of corrupt coin dealers, not a single one of them escaped justice. They were all prosecuted under existing State and or Federal fraud statutes. It has never been legal to promise someone a coin, take there money, and not deliver the coin, or on the flip side to take some one's coins and not give them the promised money.
As, further evidence this was not about getting crooked dealers, a representative from the Attorney Generals office said that none of the problems came from brick an Mortar coin shops, or any in-person transactions for that matter. So why is the law regulating in person transactions???
This law was never really about consumer protection, it was about protecting the business of some big in-state telemarketers, at the expense of big out-state companies, and smaller in-state companies. I know some Minnesota dealers that just love this new law they see it as a barrier to entry into the Minnesota market. They got there license and are anxious to see how much more business they get when all the small operators fold up shop, and the big out of state companies stop doing business with Minnesota customers.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Pete Whitt
Pete's Collectibles
PO Box 338
Valrico, Fl 33595
www.pccoins.com
<< <i>This law was never really about consumer protection, it was about protecting the business of some big in-state telemarketers, at the expense of big out-state companies, and smaller in-state companies. I know some Minnesota dealers that just love this new law they see it as a barrier to entry into the Minnesota market. They got there license and are anxious to see how much more business they get when all the small operators fold up shop, and the big out of state companies stop doing business with Minnesota customers. >>
Yes, quite often bills like this that are said to be for "consumer protection" are really designed to restrain trade so that certain favorite businesses will gain a competitive advantage.
The tax people showed up to several MN local shows within the last year. It was an unpleasant visit for a few, but for most dealers it was not an issue.
<< <i>I am not intending to make a controversial post but here is my thought on the topic:
The NRA fights for the rights of gun owners across the country and are quite successful at defending the 2nd amendment. We have an organization that represents the numismatic community called the ANA. I think this could be an awesome opportunity for the ANA to step in and actually make a difference. They should have the political clout to at least be heard in Minnesota. I propose the ANA Board of Governors send a representative to the state capital in Minnesota armed with the inherent problems this law creates. They could also provide suggested amendments that would satisfy the numismatic community.
I hear so many people say that the ANA is a waste of money. This is the type of thing I would like to see the ANA spend some time and effort on. Protecting the hobby. >>
Wonder who they should send?
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>
<< <i>Consumers also need to use some common sense and investigate before they invest. That is true of any investment from stocks, bonds and other financial instruments to land, diamonds and coins. >>
Yes, but stockbrokers need to pass the FINRA Series 7 exam and be licensed. Should coin dealers also need to be licensed?
It does seems like these dealers are depriving people of their life savings. >>
So a series 7 prevents stock brokers from ripping off customers? Did Bernie Madoff have a series 7? What measures were passed by the securities industry (and state of MN) that will prevent another Madoff scam? I won't
be surprised if the answer is "nothing." If coin dealers need to be "licensed" then we sure as heck should be starting to license our elected govt officials, especially since they propose and approve laws in numerous areas.
I'd suggest the state of MN go after the businesses where there is 100X as much fraud as there is in coins (ie stocks, bonds, currencies, antiques/art, jewelry, real estate, new and used automobiles-boats, home improvement, etc.)
I suspect that MN had >$100 billion of dollars in real estate fraud from 2004-2008. Did they even successfully prosecute a single banker or broker because of the real estate financal crisis? Did they pass any new laws?
In 100 words or less tell me how this new law is going to cut down on numismatic and bullion coin fraud. Have tightening gun registration laws kept guns out of the hands of crooks and gangs? You can't regulate lack of
common sense or a failure to do perform one's due diilgence. These same people believe probably everything a used car dealer, life insurance salesman, or estate attorney tells them too. Someone will get their money.
<< <i>Derryb, who should they send? I would say Gary Adkins. Oh wait he WAS there. Not because of ICTA or the ANA board but because he is a prominent MN dealer. Gary Adkins was there fighting tooth and nail the whole type but there was no stopping this. The ANA cannot fight political battles otherwise it would risk losing it's completely non-profit status. ICTA, CERT and the G+S PAC are able to work in political spheres because they are created in such a way that allows it. That is why donations to said organizations are not 100% tax deductible as legally required. >>
I have worked for organizations who donations were 100% tax deductible non-profits with federal and state charters. The leadership of these organizations spent the majority of their time working with legislators on the federal and state level to ensure that they were represented. This included visits to state and local capitals to meet with legislators.
The straw man argument that the ANA cannot meet with federal or state legislators to discuss numismatic legislation is not accurate in my opinion as I have seen first hand the opposite to be true in other industries. The ANA should stand up for its membership and this is the perfect opportunity. Contrary to public opinion, I think the ANA was designed to discuss issues like this with legislators as stated in section 3 of its federal charter.
I applaud Gary Adkins, the ICTA and the others who have fought tooth and nail. All I am suggesting is that the ANA step up and support collectors and members in this important fight. 28,000 membership has weight in the political arena both state and federal.
<< <i>
<< <i>Derryb, who should they send? I would say Gary Adkins. Oh wait he WAS there. Not because of ICTA or the ANA board but because he is a prominent MN dealer. Gary Adkins was there fighting tooth and nail the whole type but there was no stopping this. The ANA cannot fight political battles otherwise it would risk losing it's completely non-profit status. ICTA, CERT and the G+S PAC are able to work in political spheres because they are created in such a way that allows it. That is why donations to said organizations are not 100% tax deductible as legally required. >>
I have worked for organizations who donations were 100% tax deductible non-profits with federal and state charters. The leadership of these organizations spent the majority of their time working with legislators on the federal and state level to ensure that they were represented. This included visits to state and local capitals to meet with legislators.
The straw man argument that the ANA cannot meet with federal or state legislators to discuss numismatic legislation is not accurate in my opinion as I have seen first hand the opposite to be true in other industries. The ANA should stand up for its membership and this is the perfect opportunity. Contrary to public opinion, I think the ANA was designed to discuss issues like this with legislators as stated in section 3 of its federal charter.
I applaud Gary Adkins, the ICTA and the others who have fought tooth and nail. All I am suggesting is that the ANA step up and support collectors and members in this important fight. 28,000 membership has weight in the political arena both state and federal. >>
Thank you. If (and I have no idea if this is the case) that the ANA is not getting involved because they need to stay neutral as a non-profit is incorrect and cop out.
Remember, we cannot compare ourselves to the NRA. They have millions of members including lots of politicians and lots of money.
<< <i>Derryb, who should they send? I would say Gary Adkins. Oh wait he WAS there. Not because of ICTA or the ANA board but because he is a prominent MN dealer. Gary Adkins was there fighting tooth and nail the whole type but there was no stopping this. The ANA cannot fight political battles otherwise it would risk losing it's completely non-profit status. ICTA, CERT and the G+S PAC are able to work in political spheres because they are created in such a way that allows it. That is why donations to said organizations are not 100% tax deductible as legally required. >>
I don't know how the ANA is structured, but I do know that this battle does not have to be a political battle, it could be a legal battle. There is a difference as far as the IRS is concerned. If I remember correctly, recently the ANA setup a legal defense fund when that internal dispute was going on. Also, I believe there is a comic book legal defense fund that is setup as a non-profit and donations to it are tax deductible. We need something like what the comic book collectors have.
The best bet at getting rid of this law is a legal challenge. Politically, you are not likely to get the law repealed any time soon. Even if the opposite party takes over the MN House (very likely) and the Governorship (toss up) this year, the MN State Senate is not up for re-election until 2016. Minnesota Numismatics could be extinct by then.
BTW - a number of years ago a similar thing happened to the video game industry. The MN Attorney General pushed and got passed a blatantly unconstitutional law against them. As soon as the law was passed the video game industry filed a federal lawsuit, and they had a temporary injunction in place within 60 days. The video game industry ultimately won so the injunction became permanent. The State of Minnesota was also required to pay all of their legal fees.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
<< <i>The NRA supports gun rights causes without directly supporting politicians >>
That is not exactly true. I remember in 2008 the NRA endorsed Harry Reid for re-election to the Senate. When they called me for a contribution to their political fund, I told them to go pound salt because of that. I knew why they endorsed him, but the reason they did make look as dumb as a bag of hammers from the political perspective. To be specific they fell for a very transparent, well publicized yea vote that Harry took on a pro-gun bill that he knew had no chance of passing.
<< <i>
<< <i>The NRA supports gun rights causes without directly supporting politicians >>
That is not exactly true. I remember in 2008 the NRA endorsed Harry Reid for re-election to the Senate. When they called me for a contribution to their political fund, I told them to go pound salt because of that. I knew why they endorsed him, but the reason they did make look as dumb as a bag of hammers from the political perspective. To be specific they fell for a very transparent, well publicized yea vote that Harry took on a pro-gun bill that he knew had no chance of passing. >>
Are you sure it was the NRA and not the separate more political arm that is a 501-C6 which is allowed to lobby and support politicians. They are under the same roof but organized in such a way that they are not the NRA proper. Edited to add the organization is known as the ILA (Institute for Legislative Action)
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The NRA supports gun rights causes without directly supporting politicians >>
That is not exactly true. I remember in 2008 the NRA endorsed Harry Reid for re-election to the Senate. When they called me for a contribution to their political fund, I told them to go pound salt because of that. I knew why they endorsed him, but the reason they did make look as dumb as a bag of hammers from the political perspective. To be specific they fell for a very transparent, well publicized yea vote that Harry took on a pro-gun bill that he knew had no chance of passing. >>
Are you sure it was the NRA and not the separate more political arm that is a 501-C6 which is allowed to lobby and support politicians. They are under the same roof but organized in such a way that they are not the NRA proper. >>
They identified themselves as "The NRA" when they came looking for money. If the wall is that thin between the two, does it really matter?
<< <i>Correct, non-profits cannot support specific candidates. However, they can support or oppose certain political causes. The NRA supports gun rights causes without directly supporting politicians just as Planned Parenthood supports abortion without directly supporting politicians. How or what they could do is a different question, though I don't know if just saying, "gee, this is a tough problem, let's sit this one out" doesn't exactly inspire the members. Again, I don't know what if anything they did, so I could be off base here. >>
An important thing to remember is this is not over yet. We can also say for sure that Gary Atkins has been working tirelessly opposing this law. As we all know he has been a long time advocate for our hobby/Industry. Former president of the PNG, he is also on the board of Governors, and the board of Directors for ITCA. As a prominent Minnesota Dealer, he has been leading the charge on this. Ultimately though, it will require all of us from dealers, collectors, and industry groups coming together to defeat this thing.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
This Hard Times Token symbolizes the situation.
No longer.
<< <i>
<< <i>Correct, non-profits cannot support specific candidates. However, they can support or oppose certain political causes. The NRA supports gun rights causes without directly supporting politicians just as Planned Parenthood supports abortion without directly supporting politicians. How or what they could do is a different question, though I don't know if just saying, "gee, this is a tough problem, let's sit this one out" doesn't exactly inspire the members. Again, I don't know what if anything they did, so I could be off base here. >>
An important thing to remember is this is not over yet. We can also say for sure that Gary Atkins has been working tirelessly opposing this law. As we all know he has been a long time advocate for our hobby/Industry. Former president of the PNG, he is also on the board of Governors, and the board of Directors for ITCA. As a prominent Minnesota Dealer, he has been leading the charge on this. Ultimately though, it will require all of us from dealers, collectors, and industry groups coming together to defeat this thing. >>
Very true. And I will tip my hat to Gary and all the efforts he is making. Let's all do what we can to fight this, which then brings up the next question. What can a random collector who doesn't live in Minnesota effectively do?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
It is up to us to call them on this one. We let them get away with enough BS !!
Thanks for the thread, I will pass it on.
Remember this quote from one of the founding fathers "like fire the government is a dangerous servant and a fearful master".
<< <i>Does this now mean that Heritage (and other auction firms) will be unable to allow people from Minnesota to bid on their silver/gold/platinum lots without first registering with the state of Minnesota? >>
The lobbyist for ebay was effective in getting an exemption for auctioneers, when they do not take ownership of the coins. Now I don't know if you sell through Heritage or ebay to someone in Minnesota if you need al license or not. There is a lot of vagueness in the law. One of the many Constitutional principles the law violates.
Also, we did have some small wins when the law was going though the legislature. One of the wins was an exemption for "occasional trade shows." So if you come into town for the Northwest show, and the MOON show you have nothing to worry about. Although there has been a lot of confusion on what "occasional" means to us local show only dealers. The guidance we have gotten from the Minnesota Department of Commerce has been, look in the dictionary for the definition of "occasional." This seems like a textbook example of a statue violating our due process rights, by being unconstitutionally vague.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
You have a profitable bullion telemarketing business but all those pesky "We buy gold" places spring up and start cutting into your buying profits. The local coin dealers are also selling silver and gold they get in fairly cheaply, also cutting into your profits as a bullion telemarketer.
You donate $25K to a state Senator and get some people to complain about shady bullion dealers. You offer to help the Senator craft a bill to put onerous rules in place - ones that you can afford to abide by, but the small guys can't. Promote the bill in the name of "public safety". Anyone who fights against this public safety bill is labeled a shady dealer and is suspect in the eyes of the legislature. They won't listen to you.
The bill becomes law and soon all your pesky competition is gone.
How can you fight this? Not easy. You can't pressure the Legislators much as they are on the side of "public safety". Who would vote against that?
Politics as usual.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I suppose I understand the "in-state transaction" portion of this crazy law, and I suppose I understand the mail order/online aspects, but at the risk of sounding dense, I'm still not understanding how the State of Minnesota could possibly even have any knowledge, much less any control, over what one of its citizens buys when they are PHYSICALLY outside the state at a dealer, show, etc. Short of the individual or the dealer with whom they're doing business notifying the Minnesota authorities, which would be the height of stupidity, there's no way they could possibly know. >>
I think in a lot of states you are supposed to remit sales tax on any retail purchases you buy out of state. It's hardly enforceable and I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.
I think they collect it on car transactions from out of state. I bought a computer from Dell a few years ago and they made me pay sales tax.
<< <i>I think in a lot of states you are supposed to remit sales tax on any retail purchases you buy out of state. It's hardly enforceable and I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.
I think they collect it on car transactions from out of state. I bought a computer from Dell a few years ago and they made me pay sales tax. >>
Wait until your state figures out a way to data mine your credit card transactions, or the states get together on a group effort to do so . . . .
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
Successful, problem free and pleasant transactions with: illini420, coinguy1, weather11am,wayneherndon,wondercoin,Topdollarpaid,Julian, bishdigg,seateddime, peicesofme,ajia,CoinRaritiesOnline,savoyspecial,Boom, TorinoCobra71, ModernCoinMart, WTCG, slinc, Patches, Gerard, pocketpiececommems, BigJohnD, RickMilauskas, mirabella, Smittys, LeeG, TomB, DeusExMachina, tydye
A MN Department of Commerce rep met with dealers last October at the MOON show and mentioned they have ways of monitoring sales into the state.
Well, there was such an upheaval from the industry, that this law cannot pass. I come in contact with a lot of people who have money from a 401k or Widows who are not versed in the rules of investing. They routinely get taken advantage of by the industry. Some of these people are our mothers and our sisters.
The liberals say a conflict of interest in selling investments is unacceptable. Conservatives seem to say the free market will win out. If your mom lost $300,000 to a major brokerage firm or financial planning firm I would be outraged.... How bout you guys?
So to the issue at hand.... when I was a younger man I bought some coins from someone who assured me I'd make money. I was ripped off. Now I know better.
I have to say, some of you coin dealers only seem to be able to see your own wallets. From where I sit, I'd rather see more laws against fraud in the coin industry, as I believe there has been rampant fraud in this industry. It ought to be ok to have regulations. I'd would rather see too many than too few. Like so many things, do we want the wild west or do we want a civilized society that cares about the helpless and innocent.
I know any good republican will have to disagree with me on this. That's ok. I just care more about consumers than many businesses do.
Paperwork's a ________. And it costs more to keep up with the law than the Jones.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I will never set up there nor sell to residents, and as far as that goes, the Viqueens will never win a Super Bowl.
Now, I feel better.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
<< <i>As a lifelong Green Bay Packer fan from the Lombardi era, I always knew Minnesota suck ed.
I will never set up there nor sell to residents, and as far as that goes, the Viqueens will never win a Super Bowl.
Now, I feel better.
Post of the day
<< <i>I have had some dealings in the financial planning industry. I also dabble in coins. The financial planning industry has resisted every effort to regulate or restrict it. Many of you seem to be the same way. In the financial planning industry, after the banking crisis, many wanted to pass the following law. Essentially, nobody selling securities should have a conflict of interest in the recommendation of securities. In other words, if a broker is telling some clients that a stock is a dog then he cannot push that stock on to his less desireable clients. Same thing should apply to mortgage paper. Most people I talk to ASSUME that this law is already in effect. I mean, we trust our financial advisors, don't we?
Well, there was such an upheaval from the industry, that this law cannot pass. I come in contact with a lot of people who have money from a 401k or Widows who are not versed in the rules of investing. They routinely get taken advantage of by the industry. Some of these people are our mothers and our sisters.
The liberals say a conflict of interest in selling investments is unacceptable. Conservatives seem to say the free market will win out. If your mom lost $300,000 to a major brokerage firm or financial planning firm I would be outraged.... How bout you guys?
So to the issue at hand.... when I was a younger man I bought some coins from someone who assured me I'd make money. I was ripped off. Now I know better.
I have to say, some of you coin dealers only seem to be able to see your own wallets. From where I sit, I'd rather see more laws against fraud in the coin industry, as I believe there has been rampant fraud in this industry. It ought to be ok to have regulations. I'd would rather see too many than too few. Like so many things, do we want the wild west or do we want a civilized society that cares about the helpless and innocent.
I know any good republican will have to disagree with me on this. That's ok. I just care more about consumers than many businesses do. >>
Sounds like the old "more gun laws will keep criminals from killing with guns" arguement. What's wrong with enforcing current laws to protect people whether it is about guns, investment advice or coins? More laws will not fix a problem that lack of enforcement of current law cannot fix just as more taxes will not fix a problem that lack of fiscal responsibility cannot fix. This topic is just another attempt to over regulate, create over regulation revenues, and worst yet, have someone else do the job of public servants who can't do their job.
You forgot about us libertarians.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>I have had some dealings in the financial planning industry. I also dabble in coins. The financial planning industry has resisted every effort to regulate or restrict it. Many of you seem to be the same way. In the financial planning industry, after the banking crisis, many wanted to pass the following law. Essentially, nobody selling securities should have a conflict of interest in the recommendation of securities. In other words, if a broker is telling some clients that a stock is a dog then he cannot push that stock on to his less desireable clients. Same thing should apply to mortgage paper. Most people I talk to ASSUME that this law is already in effect. I mean, we trust our financial advisors, don't we?
Well, there was such an upheaval from the industry, that this law cannot pass. I come in contact with a lot of people who have money from a 401k or Widows who are not versed in the rules of investing. They routinely get taken advantage of by the industry. Some of these people are our mothers and our sisters.
The liberals say a conflict of interest in selling investments is unacceptable. Conservatives seem to say the free market will win out. If your mom lost $300,000 to a major brokerage firm or financial planning firm I would be outraged.... How bout you guys?
So to the issue at hand.... when I was a younger man I bought some coins from someone who assured me I'd make money. I was ripped off. Now I know better.
I have to say, some of you coin dealers only seem to be able to see your own wallets. From where I sit, I'd rather see more laws against fraud in the coin industry, as I believe there has been rampant fraud in this industry. It ought to be ok to have regulations. I'd would rather see too many than too few. Like so many things, do we want the wild west or do we want a civilized society that cares about the helpless and innocent.
I know any good republican will have to disagree with me on this. That's ok. I just care more about consumers than many businesses do. >>
The odds of your mom or relative losing $300K to scammers or sheisters in stocks, bonds, real estate, antiques, art, real estate, etc. is a lot higher than losing $300K in coins or bullion. Go regulate all those guys first, then come back to take care of the coin and bullion dealers. I'd rather see laws against fraud of all types in our finanical and real estate industries truly enforced. No one seems to have gone to jail for the tens of $TRILLIONs of financial fraud that occurred from 2002-2009.....all except Bernie and Martha Stewart. If we can't prosecute the guys that cost the country tens of $TRILLIONs in fraud (Fannie, Freddie, AIG, Lehman, BSC, JPM, Citigroup, Corzine-MF Global) why are we even bothering with the coin and bullion dealers who are insignificant in comparison? Heck, we can at least say we got Martha Stewart and made a play for Phil Mickelson....lol. During the 1980's S&L crisis regulator Bill Black prosecuted thousands of individual and incarcerated many of them. Even 5 sitting senators got into deep hot water. Why not a single soul this time around in a fraud that's probably 5,000X as large as the S&L crisis? So there's rampant fraud in the coin industry that requires immediate action to right the ship and save the state...... but nothing like that at all in the financial, securities, and derivative's industries?
Hope it gets repealed.
Tom