Roy Halladay HOF?

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Baez578
Baez578 Posts: 967 ✭✭✭
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
I don't have any vested interest nor do I own his cards but there was an interesting statistic on ESPN and I figured I'd ask everyone what they think.

Considering his multiple Cy Young's and multiple no-hitters, an impressive win-loss record an an 8 time All-Star, is Halladay going to Cooperstown?

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  • EchoCanyon
    EchoCanyon Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭
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    No.
  • TheMick6
    TheMick6 Posts: 582
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    It's going to take a good while but I think he gets in. He had enough big moments and can lay claim to being thought of as the best pitcher in the game over a period of time. Plenty of guys in the hall that can't do that. The win total is going to keep him out for a good long time though. Think we are going to start seeing guys with 200 to 250 wins get serious consideration. Won't see 300 again for a good long time. If Morris can get a group pushing for his induction with his résumé Doc will have plenty of supporters.
  • orioles93
    orioles93 Posts: 3,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes, its already been talked about here many times. Looking at some stats, 3 20 win seasons, top 5 in Cy Young voting 7 times winning 2. 17th best win/loss % all time, 8 time all star, led league in complete games 7 times. Many consider him the best or second best pitcher of the 2000s to only Johan Santana. Hes going to get in whether you like it or not.
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  • aconte
    aconte Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭
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    No

    aconte
  • grote15
    grote15 Posts: 30,223 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    His stats are impressive but durability and longevity are concerns. Not first ballot but not out if the realm of possibility.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • baz518
    baz518 Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭✭
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    I say yes, not first ballot... but yes. Due to his stats, as mentioned, and the fact that 15 years is a pretty long career now-a-days, at least for a pitcher in the steroid era. I tend to appreciate those that excelled for a shorter period more than those that are just above average for a very long time.
  • LarkinCollector
    LarkinCollector Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>His stats are impressive but durability and longevity are concerns. Not first ballot but not out if the realm of possibility. >>


    +1
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  • shagrotn77
    shagrotn77 Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭✭
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    Let's see... 8-time All-Star, won almost twice as many games as he lost, won two Cy Young Awards and finished in the top 5 in the voting 7 times, led the league in complete games 7 times, threw a no-hitter in the playoffs after tossing a perfect game earlier in the year, etc., etc. Why are we even having this conversation?
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • shagrotn77
    shagrotn77 Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>His stats are impressive but durability and longevity are concerns. >>



    I'll give you longevity, but durability? How can you question the durability of a pitcher who led the league in CG's 7 times and was top 4 in innings pitched 8 times? I'll enjoy coming back to this thread when Halladay gets in with ease on the first ballot 4 years from now.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • bounce
    bounce Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭
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    No, and i don't even think it's close at all

    Halladay had some nice seasons, but the overall stats are just nowhere near what they should be

    if you want a comparison, though, follow what happens with mussina

    if he doesn't make it, there is no way halladay will

    mussina opened at only 20% - he's going to be a long way to enshrinement if he ever makes it - gonna be tough
  • bounce
    bounce Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭
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    << <i>I'll enjoy coming back to this thread when Halladay gets in with ease on the first ballot 4 years from now. >>



    there is absolutely no chance he makes it on the first ballot, and i doubt he'll make it at all as i've said

    Mussina has 70 more wins, SO/W ratio is identical, ERA is higher but we're only talking 1/3 of a run a game, 15 post season appearances to Halladay's 5

    add Curt Schilling to the comparison list - similar win totals, 3000ks, WS MVP, much higher SO/W ratio, finished 2nd CY voting 3 times

    And Schilling's vote totals went DOWN in 2nd year after opening at close to 40%

    Halladay had some nice years and moments, but it's really not that close
  • LarkinCollector
    LarkinCollector Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i> How can you question the durability of a pitcher who led the league in CG's 7 times and was top 4 in innings pitched 8 times? >>


    Injuries all the other seasons.
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  • TheMick6
    TheMick6 Posts: 582
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    Saying he's not even close is a bit if a stretch don't you think? He was every bit as good as schilling probably better. He accomplished things Schiling never has and I'm betting Schilling is in after 5 to 10 years. We have to except that pitchers are looked at differently in the modern era. After all Pedro had 17 shutouts!!! Just 17!! No one questions his dominance though.
  • grote15
    grote15 Posts: 30,223 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>

    << <i>His stats are impressive but durability and longevity are concerns. >>



    I'll give you longevity, but durability? How can you question the durability of a pitcher who led the league in CG's 7 times and was top 4 in innings pitched 8 times? I'll enjoy coming back to this thread when Halladay gets in with ease on the first ballot 4 years from now. >>



    You'll be waiting longer than that. Durability is most certainly a factor. If he hadn't missed as much time to injury as he did, it wouldnt be an issue, but he did and it is. He's not Sandy Koufax or Pedro Martinez.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • bounce
    bounce Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭
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    << <i>Saying he's not even close is a bit if a stretch don't you think? He was every bit as good as schilling probably better. He accomplished things Schiling never has and I'm betting Schilling is in after 5 to 10 years. We have to except that pitchers are looked at differently in the modern era. After all Pedro had 17 shutouts!!! Just 17!! No one questions his dominance though. >>


    no i don't - he had some nice years and some interesting "fun fact" games, but the entirety of his stats just don't add up

    i do think he's comparable to mussina and schilling, and both of them are going to struggle to get votes

    the only thing that doesn't pop about pedro is the win total - 3000Ks, sub 3.00 ERA is crazy, 3 CYs, 8 AS games - Pedro is going to make it, just a question of what % he gets
  • TheMick6
    TheMick6 Posts: 582
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    I'll tell you what else doesn't POP about Pedro it's the 46 CG's and 17 shutouts. Like it or not Pedro was the most dominant modern era pitcher. A guy that brings it as best as he can for 6 to 7 innings hardly anymore. He was amazing I would never argue that but pitchers are never going to be the same as pre 1980's. they have to be judged based I'm how they are handled now.
  • bounce
    bounce Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭
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    << <i>I'll tell you what else doesn't POP about Pedro it's the 46 CG's and 17 shutouts. Like it or not Pedro was the most dominant modern era pitcher. A guy that brings it as best as he can for 6 to 7 innings hardly anymore. He was amazing I would never argue that but pitchers are never going to be the same as pre 1980's. they have to be judged based I'm how they are handled now. >>



    sorry, who are we arguing about here? i never said pedro wouldn't make it - i said he would and it's a just a question of %

    i'm saying mussina, schilling and halladay are going to have a tough time, and we aren't going to see any of them in cooperstown anytime soon if ever

    and i don't agree that pedro was clearly the most dominant modern day - there are plenty of other candidates, including randy johnson, roger clemens (steroids or not), maddux

    pedro is top tier for sure, i think these other guys are 2nd tier
  • olb31
    olb31 Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    here is a strong list of pitching candidates, that may be close or closer to the hof:

    Pedro Martinez
    Jim Kaat
    Tommy John
    Curt Schilling
    Roy Halladay
    Bob Welch
    Jack Morris
    Mike Mussina
    Roger Clemens
    Greg Maddux
    Jaime Moyer(lifetime achievement award)
    Tim Wakefield
    Charlie Hough

    any others?
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  • grote15
    grote15 Posts: 30,223 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    It's not the pitcher's fault for lack of CG or SHO. Teams take every precaution to protect their investments via pitch counts and managers won't let a guy stay out there for the CG, especially with reliever "specialists" and closers making millions if dollars a year.


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  • TheMick6
    TheMick6 Posts: 582
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    Bounce,

    I'm not arguing anything, I agree with what your saying regarding top tier, second tier and all of that. The point I was making was pitchers get less chances for wins, arnt allowed to complete games, throw less innings, less CG's/ shutouts etc. Your top tier pitchers in the Hall did all of that because they were handled differently. Pedro in my mind is just the perfect example. He could go hard for 6 or 7 and turn it over and for the most part that's what he did. I just think in this era Doc did enough not for enshrinement right away but eventually.
  • TheMick6
    TheMick6 Posts: 582
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    Grote,

    I agree it's not there fault and that they should be considered based in that fact. My argument is pitchers that know that 7 hard innings is the requirment go about a game differently than those looking to complete it. We could argue that all day I know it's just an opinion of mine.
  • jackstraw
    jackstraw Posts: 3,889 ✭✭✭✭
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    If playing at Coors hurts a guys chances then playing in the AL East should help.. Would love to see
    his numbers against the Yankees and Red Sox for his career while playing for a sorry team all those years too.
    I take him over Niekro, Sutton, Blyleven, Bunning and Catfish Hunter all day every day and throw in Whitey Ford..
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  • RyanAdmirer
    RyanAdmirer Posts: 632 ✭✭
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    I'm not seeing it. Just my opinion but I think he's chances of getting in are barely better than my own.
    I'm a big Nolan Ryan fan OK???!!!
  • ashabby
    ashabby Posts: 471 ✭
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    He will get in at some point.
  • Tabe
    Tabe Posts: 6,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Halladay is a better candidate than Mussina. Mussina was more durable but that's about it. Halladay's peak was a lot higher - 2 Cy Youngs and multiple sub 3.00 ERA seasons compared to Mussina's none and one.
  • Baez578
    Baez578 Posts: 967 ✭✭✭
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    << <i>If playing at Coors hurts a guys chances then playing in the AL East should help.. Would love to see
    his numbers against the Yankees and Red Sox for his career while playing for a sorry team all those years too.
    I take him over Niekro, Sutton, Blyleven, Bunning and Catfish Hunter all day every day and throw in Whitey Ford.. >>



    I tend to agree with you.

    Honestly, I think the bar has been raised quite high. That's not necessarily a bad thing as its understood due to the progression of the sport. It's just interested that if we were talking about Halladays numbers in the 70's, he would probably be a first ballot. But now in 2014 he's an interesting debate image

    I think he should go in personally. He was on a sub par team in a tough division and has some impressive statistics during an era that was dominated mostly by hitting.

    Any pitcher that performed during that era, and wasn't doing (or been caught doing) PEDs, should be in sooner than later.



  • cardsnbeads
    cardsnbeads Posts: 870
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    Roy Halladay will get in the Hall of Fame once 300 Wins is seen as unattainable . Halladay is probably one of 2 or 3 best pitchers since 2000 . 2 CYs and 2 No Hitters . Halladay is very worthy of the Hall of Fame . He's an 8 Time All Star . If Don Drysdale and Jim Bunning are Hall of Famer then so is Halladay .
  • grote15
    grote15 Posts: 30,223 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>Roy Halladay will get in the Hall of Fame once 300 Wins is seen as unattainable . Halladay is probably one of 2 or 3 best pitchers since 2000 . 2 CYs and 2 No Hitters . Halladay is very worthy of the Hall of Fame . He's an 8 Time All Star . If Don Drysdale and Jim Bunning are Hall of Famer then so is Halladay . >>



    I wouldn't exactly consider a comparison to two bottom tier HOFers as a ringing endorsement.


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  • gregmo32
    gregmo32 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭
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    Mike Mussina is one of my favorite players of all time, and Halladay was the superior player. I would have thought a few years ago Halladay was a lock. I firmly believe he deserves enshrinement.
    And the voters must begin to account for the differences in pitching statistics for modern vs. pre-1980 pitchers.
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  • bounce
    bounce Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭
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    << <i>Mike Mussina is one of my favorite players of all time, and Halladay was the superior player. I would have thought a few years ago Halladay was a lock. I firmly believe he deserves enshrinement.
    And the voters must begin to account for the differences in pitching statistics for modern vs. pre-1980 pitchers. >>



    i probably tend to agree that Halladay was better than Mussina except for the durability component.

    again, Mussina is already up and didn't even hit 40% to start and went down a good chunk which is a really bad sign for him.

    point is, if he and Schilling aren't even in the ballpark right now, where is Halladay going to be once he's getting scrutinized again for votes?

    if any of these guys make it, it's likely to be a Jack Morris type pursuit - it won't happen fast, it will take 8/9/10 years or more most likely
  • bounce
    bounce Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭
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    << <i>

    << <i>Roy Halladay will get in the Hall of Fame once 300 Wins is seen as unattainable . Halladay is probably one of 2 or 3 best pitchers since 2000 . 2 CYs and 2 No Hitters . Halladay is very worthy of the Hall of Fame . He's an 8 Time All Star . If Don Drysdale and Jim Bunning are Hall of Famer then so is Halladay . >>



    I wouldn't exactly consider a comparison to two bottom tier HOFers as a ringing endorsement. >>



    i agree - Drysdale took 10 years to get elected, and Bunning went in on the Veteran's committee after falling off the ballot for his 15 year limit - he almost made in 1988 (74.2%) but then faded

    and to be honest, i suspect there are many out there who would argue whether either of these guys SHOULD be in

    they don't always get it right, some people have slipped through the cracks
  • Francart
    Francart Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
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    Well said shagrotn77. Congratulations Halladay!

  • ahopkins
    ahopkins Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Phillies fan here. Gotta say, this is a happy day. Well-deserved. It was a pleasure and a joy watching him pitch in Philadelphia. So many awesome memories.

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    Andy

  • Comicman
    Comicman Posts: 36 ✭
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    Pathetic 😒

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  • craig44
    craig44 Posts: 13,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Good for doc

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • Comicman
    Comicman Posts: 36 ✭
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    3.36 era is now HOF worthy? Really? As I wrote previously. Pathetic :s

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  • orioles93
    orioles93 Posts: 3,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    If it were up to some of the people on these boards, we'd have 1 player inducted once every 10 years and they'd have to be as good as Mantle or Mathewson to get it.

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  • rmh111985
    rmh111985 Posts: 408 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Comicman said:
    3.36 era is now HOF worthy? Really? As I wrote previously. Pathetic :s

    Jack Morris had a 3.90 ERA and wasn't ever whispered to be the best pitcher of his generation.

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