I think that it is too harsh to say that those who don't collect colonial coins and paper money "a wimp." Colonial coinage and paper is a specialized area that requires expertise in grading and market evaluation for items with minor to moderate problems. The reason for that is that most every piece you find has one problem or another. Not everyone is cut out for that, and it's also unfair to impose an interest upon someone in a branch of the hobby that is often dominated by specialists.
As a generalist I have a some nice colonial pieces. Massachusetts silver is my favorite, but when it comes to knowledge about some series, like Connecticut and New Jersey copper, there are a lot of experts who could make me look dumb really fast.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>I think that it is too harsh to say that those who don't collect colonial coins and paper money "a wimp." Colonial coinage and paper is a specialized area that requires expertise in grading and market evaluation for items with minor to moderate problems. The reason for that is that most every piece you find has one problem or another. Not everyone is cut out for that, and it's also unfair to impose an interest upon someone in a branch of the hobby that is often dominated by specialists. >>
Perhaps that's what MLC was getting at. Not everyone is cut out to collect an area where nearly every piece has some problem.
This sounds like one of those black and white discussions from a chat room in 1997. Now if someone can just pipe up with a few of the following statements:
- All Coins Rule - (Insert your least favorite series here) Sucks - (Insert your favorite series here) Rules - (Insert your favorite TPG here) Rules
<< <i>Probably a lot of collectors just don't have enough money to get a nice collection of colonials going. >>
I think that is a big misconception. I have considered building a colonial type set with nice coins that cost under $1K apiece. With the exception of the major rarities, I'm confident this can be done with some pretty nice coins.
Money can be an issue, but for me, a big issue is time because it appears to me you need to study the series more before making acquisitions.
I've been looking at colonials for a while but just at a glance. Some issues I've run into:
(1) a big issue is the variety of pieces in terms of issuer, design, varieties, etc. It seems to do well in this space you need a general understanding of the pieces and issuers, and a deeper understanding of all the varieties. This requires time to get up to speed on all of these.
(2) a second issue is creating a cohesive set, first by issuer. This may seem silly but an issue for me in understanding what is available in that not all future states have colonials and not all colonials are associated with future states. This reminds me of SCDs in a way in that many SCDs aren't very related to each other.
(3) then there is the issue of creating a cohesive set, is by design and condition. Many of the designs are very different and conditions may be easier / harder for certain types so it appears you need both a decent time horizon and funds to create a set. If you just jump in, there seems to be the possibility that you end up in a position of not completing a set so it seems to make sense to spend more time up front deciding what to collect.
(4) and finally, there are many problems the pieces exhibit as mentioned above which requires getting up to speed on a different aspect of collecting.
Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of the designs are nice, it's just harder for me to see them going together as a cohesive set so I sort of view colonials as a series of short sets (of varieties) at the moment.
Right now I consider the following to be interesting short sets:
- MA shillings - Nova Constellatio - Washingtonia - Fugio cents
The next level are individual states with their own designs: KY, MA, NJ, RI, VT, etc. I think it may be interesting to collect these but don't consider them a "set" yet, more like individual pieces grouped together.
The third level is the pieces with English royalty on them, e.g. VA, in that they appear to be foreign coins and they often are not as fit as our own Washington.
The fourth level is those that actually say different countries, e.g. French Colonies.
Beyond that, there are many other issues, that I don't have time to get up to speed on now.
In terms of cohesiveness I see the following as points on a (rough) continuity:
- Federal coins - Federal patterns - CTW / HTT - Conder tokens - Territorial gold - SCD - Colonial
I have colonials as the least cohesive because they come in different languages and can represent associations with different countries.
So while I really like colonials, I think there's some up front investment in time and education that is necessary before building a set. The "on ramp" is steeper than for the other items listed IMO.
Well, I for one am glad you picked it back up MidLifeCrisis. Thanks to you and a few others here, over the past couple of years I became afflicted with the "Colonial Sickness" and now pursue my collection of "Early American Coins" (my own personal list) pretty passionately and exclusively. It can be done on a budget BUT it will take serious patience and lots of work. I am OK with that and each time I pull the trigger, I acquire a coin I really appreciate at a price I can afford. If you need lots of instant gratification then you're better off collecting Washington 25c's or Buffalo 5c's. It can take years to find just the right Colonial piece at your price range. However, there is SO much history oozing from these coins they almost talk to you and it is a HUGE thrill to own them. How can anyone not get jazzed holding a coin that Ben Franklin had a hand in designing?
In one of his Kraljeblogs, Pistareen (John Kraljevich), noted that the TPGs slab what they understand. This poses a big problem for collectors of many colonial issues, precisely because many were made in primitive circumstances, using inferior dies and inferior alloys (often poorly mixed too), etc., and the TPGs won't grade them. Hence, a collector will have to spend a great deal of time just learning what is deemed nice for an issue that is usually seen raw. Not many collectors have the stomach for this, particularly if the per-piece cost is more than a few hundred dollars.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
I'll admit, I'm slightly intrigued by colonials..... I was mostly unaware of their existence until wading through them on CROs site to get to the "good stuff". I'm also intrigued by ancients and certain darkside pieces. Maybe I'll get around to owning a few. Maybe I won't. If I did, a decent Fugio and pine tree shilling might be fun......
Zoins - Nice post. I won't try to address all of your concerns right now, but here are a few quick thoughts:
Learning about all colonials would be like learning about all US gold coins, or all US patterns. Colonials are not a series. They are a segment / group / broad category of many different coin types.
Colonial collecting, in my opinion, works well for type collectors. But before you try to build a type set of all major colonial types, you might consider focusing on a small sub-type first and then building from there. You can create a nice type set of Massachusetts silver (an admittedly expensive proposition); Washingtonia; state coppers; Voce Populi coinage; world coins that circulated in early America; etc.
It's a journey, not a destination.
I wouldn't get too wrapped up with the "colonials" that are listed in the Red Book. Some of those are very rare; some are Conder Tokens; etc. I would instead define my collection in my own way.
You can build a collection of colonial coins in much the same way you can build a collection of any other coins: your way.
Anybody who doesn't collect colonials is a numismatic wimp! I've been called worse , in the coin world, and merely responded with "You are what you eat".
<< <i>Anybody who doesn't collect colonials is a numismatic wimp! >>
Or an impoverished working Joe. >>
Let me draw your attention to my earlier post: I think that is a big misconception. I have considered building a colonial type set with nice coins that cost under $1K apiece. With the exception of the major rarities, I'm confident this can be done with some pretty nice coins.
Now "under $1K apiece" may not immediately mean cheap to you. But the point is I think you can do pretty well building a colonial collection on a budget.
I'll admit, I'm slightly intrigued by colonials..... I was mostly unaware of their existence until wading through them on CROs site to get to the "good stuff". I'm also intrigued by ancients and certain darkside pieces. Maybe I'll get around to owning a few. Maybe I won't. If I did, a decent Fugio and pine tree shilling might be fun...... >>
I like a few ancients, love British coins , but just can not get interested in colonials. Call me what you will...
Yorkshireman,Obsessed collector of round, metallic pieces of history.Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits plus cool US & British coins.
This post has taken an interesting turn. I guess I would start by saying that I have been collecting coins all my life from Lincoln Penny Folders to Federal Type to Federal Transition pieces, to Large Cents to Colonials which I have been at for some time.
First, if you are into immediate gratification, Colonials are not for you. Its a long game with a lot of basic research required. To collect Colonials at any level and at any price you need to enjoy the hunt and accept that your collecting will be a journey where you will at least need to be willing to brush up on your American and often English, French, Dutch, American Indian and Spanish History. Next, You have to be willing to spend time learning a bit about metallurgy and little bit about more primitive coin manufacturing processes (screw presses, rocker presses) . Next you need to have access to or be willing to invest in a basic library which can run from inexpensive with reprints to quite expensive with originals. Finally, as you rightly point out, you need to decide on a great unifier for your collection. It can be as broad as the Red Book, with great color and surfaces, or as narrow as one Colony by variety set.
But to me, if this is going to be a lifetime hobby, a great escape, all that investment in the true hunt and seek and never knowing where you will find the next coin (eBay, an Auction, a junk box) makes it much more gratifying. There is enough basic literature and coin diversity out there to spend a lifetime learning and pursuing them.
But what a ride. And the people in the hobby are truly wonderful. They are very welcoming, share knowledge freely, have great conventions and newsletters..........Really, it seems to have everything you could ask for in a hobby.
And I suppose the biggest reason that made me write this was, Colonials are seeing a virtually unprecedented time in Collecting. More colonials coins are entering the market all at once. More than any time I can think of in history. Even when the great Virgil Brand sold his massive collection of over 300,000 objects, he did it over decades. Newman, Kendall and Partrick have either come out or about to fully come out. There are more coins than collectors. And if there were ever a chance to assemble at reasonable cost, a problem free VF/EF nice color set of almost anything, now is the moment.
At the high end, competition and prices are still fairly steep, but at he VF/EF levels, prices are well below what they were 10 to 20 years ago. I think if you follow the rule of problem free, nice color and service anything, it will be hard to go wrong right now. Nevertheless, if this kind of collecting journey is what you seek. Engage a friend or dealer that knows the area and he can point you to an abundance. If you are interested, take a look at this months Numismatist and read Ray Williams article, "An Evening with My Collection."
Comments
As a generalist I have a some nice colonial pieces. Massachusetts silver is my favorite, but when it comes to knowledge about some series, like Connecticut and New Jersey copper, there are a lot of experts who could make me look dumb really fast.
<< <i>I think that it is too harsh to say that those who don't collect colonial coins and paper money "a wimp." >>
I wouldn't take the thread too seriously. MLC likes to yank our collective chain.
<< <i>I think that it is too harsh to say that those who don't collect colonial coins and paper money "a wimp." Colonial coinage and paper is a specialized area that requires expertise in grading and market evaluation for items with minor to moderate problems. The reason for that is that most every piece you find has one problem or another. Not everyone is cut out for that, and it's also unfair to impose an interest upon someone in a branch of the hobby that is often dominated by specialists. >>
Perhaps that's what MLC was getting at. Not everyone is cut out to collect an area where nearly every piece has some problem.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Anybody who doesn't brush their colonials is a numismatic wimp!
- All Coins Rule
- (Insert your least favorite series here) Sucks
- (Insert your favorite series here) Rules
- (Insert your favorite TPG here) Rules
....anyway you get the idea
Rob
Successful Trades with: Coincast, MICHAELDIXON
Successful Purchases from: Manorcourtman, Meltdown
<< <i>Probably a lot of collectors just don't have enough money to get a nice collection of colonials going. >>
I think that is a big misconception. I have considered building a colonial type set with nice coins that cost under $1K apiece. With the exception of the major rarities, I'm confident this can be done with some pretty nice coins.
I've been looking at colonials for a while but just at a glance. Some issues I've run into:
(1) a big issue is the variety of pieces in terms of issuer, design, varieties, etc. It seems to do well in this space you need a general understanding of the pieces and issuers, and a deeper understanding of all the varieties. This requires time to get up to speed on all of these.
(2) a second issue is creating a cohesive set, first by issuer. This may seem silly but an issue for me in understanding what is available in that not all future states have colonials and not all colonials are associated with future states. This reminds me of SCDs in a way in that many SCDs aren't very related to each other.
(3) then there is the issue of creating a cohesive set, is by design and condition. Many of the designs are very different and conditions may be easier / harder for certain types so it appears you need both a decent time horizon and funds to create a set. If you just jump in, there seems to be the possibility that you end up in a position of not completing a set so it seems to make sense to spend more time up front deciding what to collect.
(4) and finally, there are many problems the pieces exhibit as mentioned above which requires getting up to speed on a different aspect of collecting.
Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of the designs are nice, it's just harder for me to see them going together as a cohesive set so I sort of view colonials as a series of short sets (of varieties) at the moment.
Right now I consider the following to be interesting short sets:
- MA shillings
- Nova Constellatio
- Washingtonia
- Fugio cents
The next level are individual states with their own designs: KY, MA, NJ, RI, VT, etc. I think it may be interesting to collect these but don't consider them a "set" yet, more like individual pieces grouped together.
The third level is the pieces with English royalty on them, e.g. VA, in that they appear to be foreign coins and they often are not as fit as our own Washington.
The fourth level is those that actually say different countries, e.g. French Colonies.
Beyond that, there are many other issues, that I don't have time to get up to speed on now.
In terms of cohesiveness I see the following as points on a (rough) continuity:
- Federal coins
- Federal patterns
- CTW / HTT
- Conder tokens
- Territorial gold
- SCD
- Colonial
I have colonials as the least cohesive because they come in different languages and can represent associations with different countries.
So while I really like colonials, I think there's some up front investment in time and education that is necessary before building a set. The "on ramp" is steeper than for the other items listed IMO.
<< <i>
<< <i>Didn't you stop
No. I just took a year off. >>
Well, I for one am glad you picked it back up MidLifeCrisis. Thanks to you and a few others here, over the past couple of years I became afflicted with the "Colonial Sickness" and now pursue my collection of "Early American Coins" (my own personal list) pretty passionately and exclusively. It can be done on a budget BUT it will take serious patience and lots of work. I am OK with that and each time I pull the trigger, I acquire a coin I really appreciate at a price I can afford. If you need lots of instant gratification then you're better off collecting Washington 25c's or Buffalo 5c's. It can take years to find just the right Colonial piece at your price range. However, there is SO much history oozing from these coins they almost talk to you and it is a HUGE thrill to own them. How can anyone not get jazzed holding a coin that Ben Franklin had a hand in designing?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Cheerios,
joe
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I'll admit, I'm slightly intrigued by colonials..... I was mostly unaware of their existence until wading through them on CROs site to get to the "good stuff". I'm also intrigued by ancients and certain darkside pieces. Maybe I'll get around to owning a few. Maybe I won't. If I did, a decent Fugio and pine tree shilling might be fun......
Learning about all colonials would be like learning about all US gold coins, or all US patterns. Colonials are not a series. They are a segment / group / broad category of many different coin types.
Colonial collecting, in my opinion, works well for type collectors. But before you try to build a type set of all major colonial types, you might consider focusing on a small sub-type first and then building from there. You can create a nice type set of Massachusetts silver (an admittedly expensive proposition); Washingtonia; state coppers; Voce Populi coinage; world coins that circulated in early America; etc.
It's a journey, not a destination.
I wouldn't get too wrapped up with the "colonials" that are listed in the Red Book. Some of those are very rare; some are Conder Tokens; etc. I would instead define my collection in my own way.
You can build a collection of colonial coins in much the same way you can build a collection of any other coins: your way.
I agree, but don't call me a wimp.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>'You can build a collection of colonial coins in much the same way you can build a collection of any other coins: your way.'
I agree, but don't call me a wimp.
I would never call you a wimp. I bet you have a bigger colonial collection than I do!
I've been called worse , in the coin world, and merely responded with "You are what you eat".
nice!!!
<< <i>Anybody who doesn't collect colonials is a numismatic wimp! >>
Or an impoverished working Joe.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
<< <i>
<< <i>Anybody who doesn't collect colonials is a numismatic wimp! >>
Or an impoverished working Joe.
Let me draw your attention to my earlier post: I think that is a big misconception. I have considered building a colonial type set with nice coins that cost under $1K apiece. With the exception of the major rarities, I'm confident this can be done with some pretty nice coins.
Now "under $1K apiece" may not immediately mean cheap to you. But the point is I think you can do pretty well building a colonial collection on a budget.
<< <i>Weird thread.
I'll admit, I'm slightly intrigued by colonials..... I was mostly unaware of their existence until wading through them on CROs site to get to the "good stuff". I'm also intrigued by ancients and certain darkside pieces. Maybe I'll get around to owning a few. Maybe I won't. If I did, a decent Fugio and pine tree shilling might be fun...... >>
I like a few ancients, love British coins , but just can not get interested in colonials.
Call me what you will...
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Anything nice >>
Yeah, lots of nice stuff in this thread.
<< <i>What's a colonial? >>
I think it's the officer who reports to the General.
bob
This post has taken an interesting turn. I guess I would start by saying that I have been collecting coins all my life from Lincoln Penny Folders to Federal Type to Federal Transition pieces, to Large Cents to Colonials which I have been at for some time.
First, if you are into immediate gratification, Colonials are not for you. Its a long game with a lot of basic research required. To collect Colonials at any level and at any price you need to enjoy the hunt and accept that your collecting will be a journey where you will at least need to be willing to brush up on your American and often English, French, Dutch, American Indian and Spanish History. Next, You have to be willing to spend time learning a bit about metallurgy and little bit about more primitive coin manufacturing processes (screw presses, rocker presses) . Next you need to have access to or be willing to invest in a basic library which can run from inexpensive with reprints to quite expensive with originals. Finally, as you rightly point out, you need to decide on a great unifier for your collection. It can be as broad as the Red Book, with great color and surfaces, or as narrow as one Colony by variety set.
But to me, if this is going to be a lifetime hobby, a great escape, all that investment in the true hunt and seek and never knowing where you will find the next coin (eBay, an Auction, a junk box) makes it much more gratifying. There is enough basic literature and coin diversity out there to spend a lifetime learning and pursuing them.
But what a ride. And the people in the hobby are truly wonderful. They are very welcoming, share knowledge freely, have great conventions and newsletters..........Really, it seems to have everything you could ask for in a hobby.
And I suppose the biggest reason that made me write this was, Colonials are seeing a virtually unprecedented time in Collecting. More colonials coins are entering the market all at once. More than any time I can think of in history. Even when the great Virgil Brand sold his massive collection of over 300,000 objects, he did it over decades. Newman, Kendall and Partrick have either come out or about to fully come out. There are more coins than collectors. And if there were ever a chance to assemble at reasonable cost, a problem free VF/EF nice color set of almost anything, now is the moment.
At the high end, competition and prices are still fairly steep, but at he VF/EF levels, prices are well below what they were 10 to 20 years ago. I think if you follow the rule of problem free, nice color and service anything, it will be hard to go wrong right now. Nevertheless, if this kind of collecting journey is what you seek. Engage a friend or dealer that knows the area and he can point you to an abundance. If you are interested, take a look at this months Numismatist and read Ray Williams article, "An Evening with My Collection."
JMO,
novacaesarea