Thanks for the information. I suspected that was the case, but good to know. I suspect the only real way to upgrade is to crack the coin out. One of the coins that didn't cross was a 58- I feared it might go 60. Silly me.
<< <i>It is easy to say that crossovers are feasible if you submit “really nice” coins but unless your criteria for what is “really nice” conforms to PCGS’s grading standards it will not get you a cross. To be successful at crossing you need to understand the difference in grading standards between the two services and you must be able to discern which coins in NGC holders meet the PCGS standard. Few people can do that at all and fewer still can do it consistently—and consistency is made harder by the inherent subjectivity and inconsistency in grading even at the professional level.
Put another way, if your grading skills are really good and you can consistently grade the same way that NGC does, you are a much better grader than vast majority of collectors, but that still leaves with NGC grades for your coins. CG >>
My best example of this at work was when I had a pair of essentially gem New Orleans mint seated quarters that I had bought raw. I felt both were 65's and sent the colorful blasty one to PCGS and the more muted but very clean one to NGC. I felt that would maximize my chances of 65's. Since they were rather different looking coins I didn't want them seen together. I was surprised in getting 64's on each of them. That sort of hurt. What to do? So I flipped them around and sent the colorful, blasty one to NGC and the clean muted one to PCGS. MS65 and MS65. Done deal. Both were finest known and pop 1's at that time. There really is no difference between the two TPG's on gem 19th century coinage other than PCGS tends to be a couple tenths of a point more conservative (in general....your mileage may vary). The difference does tend to vary per series as well. In MS64-MS67 bust halves the difference is quite a bit larger than almost any other series. Again, your mileage may vary.
Yeah 0 for 36. And my last PCGS regrade game back the same. So my batting average for upgrades just went down. One of those 0 for 36 coins was a 1990ish graded NGC MS67 no drapery half dime with monster color. I think that coin went in 2 or 3 times over the years for a cross. Never got it. I even tried for NGC 68 on a final crack out and didn't get. Yes, the 67 was cracked out...at least it starred. When that coin went to auction as a 67*CAC it fetched 50% of the way to MS68 money (ie legit grade of 67++ before the + sign came to market). It fetched 3X what generic PCGS MS67's were bringing and 2X what the high end MS67's were bringing. The market spoke, even if the cross attempts didn't. Of all those 0 for 36 coins that was the one that bothered me the most. It matters little today if you can grade/juggle to both PCGS and NGC standards....considering the fact that NGC coins bring less. You're just better off in many cases cracking out the nice NGC coins and getting the grade they deserve. I'd KILL for the standard 30% crossover. I've had dozens of cracked out NGC coins come back the same or higher grades at PCGS....it's only the crossovers where my results are skewed.
Heck fire, I guess that I should not be complaining (too loudly anyway) about the slow response for cross-over service on this last submittal (03 Apr 14).
Three ANACS; two old white holders and one modern yellow. They should cross easily (laterally or a point or two lower) to fit into my eclectic type collection.
I have only had three DNC out of 20+.
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
I'm 8 for 8 this year, but I also don't go bottom fishing and hope to cross it. "Hope" in TPG submission terms can be very expensive and frustrating. You need to know how PCGS grades, not what you think a coin should grade. Once you learn how PCGS grades, crossovers become easier because you'll know pretty much where the coin will come out if sent in for crossover.
PCGS wants nice coins in its holders...so if you have nice coins that are graded as they would grade them, of course they'll cross..,
<< <i>This number is updated daily and ranges from 30% to as high as 50% for crossovers in the last 30 days. The 1 year rate is 38% which is probably a better number as it is over a longer time and has a larger sample size >>
That quote is from 1 year ago. The current 1 year crossover rate....still 38%. So 38% for 2 straight years
Just to make a point, the variance you see from the various grading houses is more related to market grade than technical grade.
PCGS likes their coins to be a "certain" way, NGC has their own spin. While a coin may be considered the same grade by both houses, they market grade has a big impact on if they are letting cross. And that is more subjective than technical grade.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
<< <i>I'm 8 for 8 this year, but I also don't go bottom fishing and hope to cross it. "Hope" in TPG submission terms can be very expensive and frustrating. You need to know how PCGS grades, not what you think a coin should grade. Once you learn how PCGS grades, crossovers become easier because you'll know pretty much where the coin will come out if sent in for crossover.
PCGS wants nice coins in its holders...so if you have nice coins that are graded as they would grade them, of course they'll cross.., >>
I agree completely. It's much easier to cross if you know what PCGS wants to see at a given grade level and if you stick to coins that are solid or above for their currently assigned grade. Case in point: I recently had the same results as you - 8 for 8. Six NGC 58s all crossed to 58. One NGC 58 crossed to 62. One ICG 58 crossed to 58.
My current coin collecting interests are: (1) British coins 1838-1970 in XF-AU-UNC, (2) silver type coins in XF-AU with that classic medium gray coloration and exceptional eye appeal.
<< <i>I'm 8 for 8 this year, but I also don't go bottom fishing and hope to cross it. "Hope" in TPG submission terms can be very expensive and frustrating. You need to know how PCGS grades, not what you think a coin should grade. Once you learn how PCGS grades, crossovers become easier because you'll know pretty much where the coin will come out if sent in for crossover.
PCGS wants nice coins in its holders...so if you have nice coins that are graded as they would grade them, of course they'll cross.., >>
I wish it were that easy when it comes to choice and gem 19th century silver type coins. I pretty much know when a gem type coin is nice enough to crossover. I also know that the odds of it happening are very slim....at least for us common folk. Still find it odd that I can tell what PCGS coins should upgrade on a regrade review....but I cannot get a choice/gem MS NGC bust/seated/Barber coin to cross no matter how nice.
Part of the issue could be that I tend to focus on toned original coins with nice surfaces....not dipped out blast white ones. There have been numerous occasions where I didn't think a coin (NGC or PCGS) had a prayer for a PCGS upgrade only to find that after I sold the coins they upgraded within the next 3-6 months. Cross-overs are as much dependent on when a coin is submitted, who grades it, who submitted it, the coins that accompany it, and how many times it gets tried. I know this is the case from my own experiences as well as talking to one of the best minds/graders in the business who gave me insights in what they track on a weekly basis to decide when to send coins off to the TPG's for potential upgrades/crosses. A mere 5-10% shift of the odds in their favor is what they're after....all independent of the coin itself.
<< <i>Part of the issue could be that I tend to focus on toned original coins with nice surfaces....not dipped out blast white ones. >>
This preference incentivizes the wrong behavior and breeds more dipped out white wigits. >>
You bet. One of my highest end seated quarters ever was a rarer O" mint in MS64 that I had tried 4 or 5X over 5 years to get into a 65 holder. It had wonderful original color and flash. Most of this date are a bit dullish with weakish luster. I "knew" I could get that coin into a 65 holder someday. But, in this case the coin wore me out. It was cracked out every time (2002-2007) and always came back MS64. It never came back lower....a tribute to how strong for the grade it was. It went to both services too. Today it would have surely been a + coin. When it was sold the next owner dipped it and supposedly applied putty to it....and eventually got it into a top tier MS65 holder. I guess if the + "thing" (and even CAC) were around back then it might have saved (or delayed) this coin from this fate.
This has been an extremely informative thread for me and points out the high degree of subjectivity that exists in the grading process. Roadrunner's experience with crossing raw vs slabbed coins is especially illuminating.
Comments
Erik
<< <i>Question- when I submit for crossover as "current" will the coin ever upgrade or does "current" cap the grade? >>
Current does not cap the grade. If it deserves higher PCGS will award it.
Lance.
Thanks for the information. I suspected that was the case, but good to know. I suspect the only real way to upgrade is to crack the coin out. One of the coins that didn't cross was a 58- I feared it might go 60. Silly me.
I can't believe a year has passed since I started this thread! Unfortunately, it seems like yesterday, which is very bad!
<< <i>It is easy to say that crossovers are feasible if you submit “really nice” coins but unless your criteria for what is “really nice” conforms to PCGS’s grading standards it will not get you a cross. To be successful at crossing you need to understand the difference in grading standards between the two services and you must be able to discern which coins in NGC holders meet the PCGS standard. Few people can do that at all and fewer still can do it consistently—and consistency is made harder by the inherent subjectivity and inconsistency in grading even at the professional level.
Put another way, if your grading skills are really good and you can consistently grade the same way that NGC does, you are a much better grader than vast majority of collectors, but that still leaves with NGC grades for your coins.
CG >>
My best example of this at work was when I had a pair of essentially gem New Orleans mint seated quarters that I had bought raw. I felt both were 65's and sent the colorful blasty one to PCGS and the more muted but very clean
one to NGC. I felt that would maximize my chances of 65's. Since they were rather different looking coins I didn't want them seen together. I was surprised in getting 64's on each of them. That sort of hurt. What to do?
So I flipped them around and sent the colorful, blasty one to NGC and the clean muted one to PCGS. MS65 and MS65. Done deal. Both were finest known and pop 1's at that time. There really is no difference between the
two TPG's on gem 19th century coinage other than PCGS tends to be a couple tenths of a point more conservative (in general....your mileage may vary). The difference does tend to vary per series as well. In MS64-MS67 bust
halves the difference is quite a bit larger than almost any other series. Again, your mileage may vary.
Yeah 0 for 36. And my last PCGS regrade game back the same. So my batting average for upgrades just went down. One of those 0 for 36 coins was a 1990ish graded NGC MS67 no drapery half dime with monster color. I
think that coin went in 2 or 3 times over the years for a cross. Never got it. I even tried for NGC 68 on a final crack out and didn't get. Yes, the 67 was cracked out...at least it starred. When that coin went to auction as a
67*CAC it fetched 50% of the way to MS68 money (ie legit grade of 67++ before the + sign came to market). It fetched 3X what generic PCGS MS67's were bringing and 2X what the high end MS67's were bringing. The
market spoke, even if the cross attempts didn't. Of all those 0 for 36 coins that was the one that bothered me the most. It matters little today if you can grade/juggle to both PCGS and NGC standards....considering the fact
that NGC coins bring less. You're just better off in many cases cracking out the nice NGC coins and getting the grade they deserve. I'd KILL for the standard 30% crossover. I've had dozens of cracked out NGC coins come
back the same or higher grades at PCGS....it's only the crossovers where my results are skewed.
Three ANACS; two old white holders and one modern yellow. They should cross easily (laterally or a point or two lower) to fit into my eclectic type collection.
I have only had three DNC out of 20+.
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PCGS wants nice coins in its holders...so if you have nice coins that are graded as they would grade them, of course they'll cross..,
<< <i>This number is updated daily and ranges from 30% to as high as 50% for crossovers in the last 30 days. The 1 year rate is 38% which is probably a better number as it is over a longer time and has a larger sample size >>
That quote is from 1 year ago. The current 1 year crossover rate....still 38%. So 38% for 2 straight years
PCGS likes their coins to be a "certain" way, NGC has their own spin. While a coin may be considered the same grade by both houses, they market grade has a big impact on if they are letting cross. And that is more subjective than technical grade.
<< <i>I'm 8 for 8 this year, but I also don't go bottom fishing and hope to cross it. "Hope" in TPG submission terms can be very expensive and frustrating. You need to know how PCGS grades, not what you think a coin should grade. Once you learn how PCGS grades, crossovers become easier because you'll know pretty much where the coin will come out if sent in for crossover.
PCGS wants nice coins in its holders...so if you have nice coins that are graded as they would grade them, of course they'll cross.., >>
I agree completely. It's much easier to cross if you know what PCGS wants to see at a given grade level and if you stick to coins that are solid or above for their currently assigned grade. Case in point: I recently had the same results as you - 8 for 8. Six NGC 58s all crossed to 58. One NGC 58 crossed to 62. One ICG 58 crossed to 58.
<< <i>I'm 8 for 8 this year, but I also don't go bottom fishing and hope to cross it. "Hope" in TPG submission terms can be very expensive and frustrating. You need to know how PCGS grades, not what you think a coin should grade. Once you learn how PCGS grades, crossovers become easier because you'll know pretty much where the coin will come out if sent in for crossover.
PCGS wants nice coins in its holders...so if you have nice coins that are graded as they would grade them, of course they'll cross.., >>
I wish it were that easy when it comes to choice and gem 19th century silver type coins. I pretty much know when a gem type coin is nice enough to crossover. I also know that the odds of it happening are very slim....at least
for us common folk. Still find it odd that I can tell what PCGS coins should upgrade on a regrade review....but I cannot get a choice/gem MS NGC bust/seated/Barber coin to cross no matter how nice.
Part of the issue could be that I tend to focus on toned original coins with nice surfaces....not dipped out blast white ones. There have been numerous occasions where I didn't think a coin (NGC or PCGS) had a prayer for a
PCGS upgrade only to find that after I sold the coins they upgraded within the next 3-6 months. Cross-overs are as much dependent on when a coin is submitted, who grades it, who submitted it, the coins that accompany
it, and how many times it gets tried. I know this is the case from my own experiences as well as talking to one of the best minds/graders in the business who gave me insights in what they track on a weekly basis to decide
when to send coins off to the TPG's for potential upgrades/crosses. A mere 5-10% shift of the odds in their favor is what they're after....all independent of the coin itself.
<< <i>Part of the issue could be that I tend to focus on toned original coins with nice surfaces....not dipped out blast white ones. >>
This preference incentivizes the wrong behavior and breeds more dipped out white wigits.
Latin American Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Part of the issue could be that I tend to focus on toned original coins with nice surfaces....not dipped out blast white ones. >>
This preference incentivizes the wrong behavior and breeds more dipped out white wigits. >>
You bet. One of my highest end seated quarters ever was a rarer O" mint in MS64 that I had tried 4 or 5X over 5 years to get into a 65 holder. It had wonderful original color and flash. Most of this date are a bit dullish with weakish
luster. I "knew" I could get that coin into a 65 holder someday. But, in this case the coin wore me out. It was cracked out every time (2002-2007) and always came back MS64. It never came back lower....a tribute to how
strong for the grade it was. It went to both services too. Today it would have surely been a + coin. When it was sold the next owner dipped it and supposedly applied putty to it....and eventually got it into a top tier MS65 holder.
I guess if the + "thing" (and even CAC) were around back then it might have saved (or delayed) this coin from this fate.