Bizarre: bankruptcy wants me to pay for coins sold 6 years ago
coinpictures
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I'm no attorney, but this seems utterly bogus to me. It's not a phishing scam, but it may be a fishing expedition on the part of the law firm.
I just received a letter today regarding a bankruptcy proceeding. The owner of the company used company funds to buy coins back in 2008. These were eBay sales paid through PayPal. They are claiming that since these were fraudulent transactions, that I am now obligated to refund the cost of those transactions to the bankruptcy estate.
I'm no attorney, but this seems bogus on a number of different levels:
1. Statute of limitations. These were material goods purchased 5.5 to 6 years ago. Goods were paid for. Goods were delivered. How is the vendor obligated to make good on these years after the fact?
2. Isn't the normal procedure that those goods are liquidated in the bankruptcy? In other words, you sell the goods in question since they are assets in the bankruptcy, you don't go after the original seller of the goods and say they must compensate at original purchase price years after the fact.
If weren't for the fact that it enumerates the dates, dollar amounts, and the exact coins in question, I would have thought this was a phishing scam.
Weird.
I just received a letter today regarding a bankruptcy proceeding. The owner of the company used company funds to buy coins back in 2008. These were eBay sales paid through PayPal. They are claiming that since these were fraudulent transactions, that I am now obligated to refund the cost of those transactions to the bankruptcy estate.
I'm no attorney, but this seems bogus on a number of different levels:
1. Statute of limitations. These were material goods purchased 5.5 to 6 years ago. Goods were paid for. Goods were delivered. How is the vendor obligated to make good on these years after the fact?
2. Isn't the normal procedure that those goods are liquidated in the bankruptcy? In other words, you sell the goods in question since they are assets in the bankruptcy, you don't go after the original seller of the goods and say they must compensate at original purchase price years after the fact.
If weren't for the fact that it enumerates the dates, dollar amounts, and the exact coins in question, I would have thought this was a phishing scam.
Weird.
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Comments
<< <i>They might consider it a financial transaction if it was bullion which would change it a but from a pure transaction. >>
Not bullion. Collectible world coins, some PCGS, some NGC, some raw.
<< <i>Get your self a lawyer to respond and don't accept any further correspondence from these people unless the amount is less than a good lawyer would cost. If that is they case I would carefully draft a thanks but no thanks letter. >>
Total amount demanded is $1,500. As far as retaining an attorney on my dime, frankly I don't see why I should be out of pocket one cent to refute a bogus claim like this.
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If not, then HELL no.
If they are, well, with the way the coin market has risen, it might be a good deal for you.
Agree that they can request all they want. But without any real legal standing, I would consider it just that: A request.
The argument of the creditors might be that the person had no business buying coins when he could have used that money to repay others to whom he owed money. For $1500, I wouldn't worry over it. Sounds like they don't have the coins either.
<< <i>Speaking purely in terms of monetary matters, wouldn't buying coins at prices you sold them at 5-6 years ago generate a tidy profit? >>
Oh it would, but the letter does not specify that they would be returning anything at all. My guess is that the coins are long gone and thus cannot be sold as part of the bankruptcy, so they are trying for the next best thing.
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<< <i>The argument of the creditors might be that the person had no business buying coins when he could have used that money to repay others to whom he owed money. >>
My limited understanding is that there is a time limit for this requirement. You can't go back in perpetuity and try to effectively put a lien against everything ever purchased, including before when financial solvency/bankruptcy was an issue.
<< <i>Is the bankrupt collector in a different state from where you reside? I can't imagine them going to the expense of suing you from out of state for $1500. >>
Same state.
1/2 Cents
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No.
Advice?
Ignore it. No cost option.
<< <i>
<< <i>The argument of the creditors might be that the person had no business buying coins when he could have used that money to repay others to whom he owed money. >>
My limited understanding is that there is a time limit for this requirement. You can't go back in perpetuity and try to effectively put a lien against everything ever purchased, including before when financial solvency/bankruptcy was an issue. >>
It seems like they are simply trying to scare you into complying. I expect they have nothing to lose by trying. If you are certain of the time limits, tell em you were born at night, but it warn't last night.
in 2004 and I was placed on the lawyer's "mailing" list. The first letters I received sounded semi-threatening suggesting that anyone who bought coins from those guys might have to return them or the equivalent dollar amount.
Sounds like the same thing here with the OP....phishing.
I wonder if they're going after the people who sold him gas & groceries too.
Not a replacement for a real lawyer, but using the keywords "Bankruptcy Clawback" provided by other posters, I found this. Quick read may help you decide if you need to talk to someone.
Note under "Fraudulant Transfers", there is reference to "transfer within the two years prior to your bankruptcy or within the time limit allowed by state law for setting aside fraudulent transfers, whichever is greater".
So, state laws may vary is the take-away.
Thing is....YOU didn't do anything fraudulant. The BUYER may have....in which case, (and if it was within the state mandated time frame), HE would be liable for the clawback of either the coins, or the proceeds from selling the coins.
(Disclaimer....I'm not a lawyer, as many would probably guess).
Worth a read, though.
The clawback provision allows the trustee to look at your financial transactions before you filed for bankruptcy, to see if you improperly transferred or gave away property that should be part of your estate. If so, the trustee can "claw it back," undoing the transaction and bringing that property into your estate. If the property is not exempt, the trustee can sell it for the benefit of your creditors.
There are two types of transactions that can be voided using the clawback provision: preferences and fraudulent transfers.
A preference is a payment to a creditor before you filed for bankruptcy. If you paid an "insider" creditor (a relative, friend, or business associate) more than $600 in the year before you filed, it will be considered a preference. Payments of more than $600 (in aggregate to one creditor) to regular arms-length creditors in the 90 days before you filed will also be considered preferences. This money can be clawed back from the preferred creditor and distributed among all of your creditors.
A fraudulent transfer occurs when you give away money or property, or sell property for much less than it's worth, in order to make sure your creditors can't get it. Often, fraudulent transfers are made to family members, with the understanding that the bankruptcy filer will get the property back once the bankruptcy case is over. The trustee can undo these transfers and take the property back into the bankruptcy estate. And, if the trustee believes the filer was trying to hide assets, the filer's whole case might be thrown out.
The owner of the company?
I wouldn't give them a dime.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>When bullion/coin dealer National Gold Exchange out of Florida went bankrupt in 2009 the lawyers sent letters to those customers who bought coins from NGE many years earlier. I had bought some stuff from them back
in 2004 and I was placed on the lawyer's "mailing" list. The first letters I received sounded semi-threatening suggesting that anyone who bought coins from those guys might have to return them or the equivalent dollar amount.
Sounds like the same thing here with the OP....phishing. >>
IIRC when that was discussed here, NGE had purchased some $100K in gold coins and there was chatter that the money could be clawed back but it wasn't clear if the coins would be returned.
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<< <i>Don't even have correspondence with them. You talk, they sense $$$$ >>
I agree with this. Scary and weird. Worst that can happen if you utterly ignore it is they send another missive or attempt some other form of communication.
You did nothing wrong, so shred the letter and let no contact come from your end.
<< <i>Don't even have correspondence with them. You talk, they sense $$$$ >>
This is good advice. Do not even respond. In your case they can not do anything. Just a fishing expedition.
If you throw enough $hit against the wall, some of it will stick.
<< <i>Don't even have correspondence with them. You talk, they sense $$$$ >>
This is the best way to handle the jerks, I know from experience. Be very careful when you write attorneys as it's very easy to start the bell tolling on a new statue of limitations.
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Seriously, it would be wise for you to consult a bankruptcy attorney on this.
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The double mailing is a form of entrapment.
Most people will read the First Class letter, then refuse the Certified. (got ya)
Non-receipt is accepted when both mailings are returned as deliverable or refused.
A First Class letter alone is krap.
Not a lawyer, but know a mailman.
By not ignoring it, you set yourself up to be contacted further and them trying to establish some connection to you having to pay. When these types of phishing scams happen, even if there were monies owed and a collection agency has purchased the debt, they DO have a statute of limitations that they have to stay within the guidelines of; legally. Any contact you do with them, even to tell them off, resets that timeline. Also, contact may be taken as admission of debt.
I had some attempt to contact me, claiming I owed from a cellphone more than 10 years previously. I hadn't had that carrier for a LONG time. I called them to tell them they had a wrong account/person and thought I was being nice. I ended up having to NOT be so nice as they wanted to try to pressure me. I then researched these things a bit more and found out that it is best to not even respond to them.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I'm no attorney, but this seems utterly bogus to me. It's not a phishing scam, but it may be a fishing expedition on the part of the law firm.
I just received a letter today regarding a bankruptcy proceeding. The owner of the company used company funds to buy coins back in 2008. These were eBay sales paid through PayPal. They are claiming that since these were fraudulent transactions, that I am now obligated to refund the cost of those transactions to the bankruptcy estate.
I'm no attorney, but this seems bogus on a number of different levels:
1. Statute of limitations. These were material goods purchased 5.5 to 6 years ago. Goods were paid for. Goods were delivered. How is the vendor obligated to make good on these years after the fact?
2. Isn't the normal procedure that those goods are liquidated in the bankruptcy? In other words, you sell the goods in question since they are assets in the bankruptcy, you don't go after the original seller of the goods and say they must compensate at original purchase price years after the fact.
If weren't for the fact that it enumerates the dates, dollar amounts, and the exact coins in question, I would have thought this was a phishing scam.
Weird. >>
Hmmmm. Sounds like a weird way to ask for a return??
BTW, did the documents state that the coins would be returned to you if you refunded the payments made for the coins?
I guess it doesn't really matter though as the request seems downright silly.
The name is LEE!
They're phishing, if you respond you're biting the hook.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm no attorney, but this seems utterly bogus to me. It's not a phishing scam, but it may be a fishing expedition on the part of the law firm.
I just received a letter today regarding a bankruptcy proceeding. The owner of the company used company funds to buy coins back in 2008. These were eBay sales paid through PayPal. They are claiming that since these were fraudulent transactions, that I am now obligated to refund the cost of those transactions to the bankruptcy estate.
I'm no attorney, but this seems bogus on a number of different levels:
1. Statute of limitations. These were material goods purchased 5.5 to 6 years ago. Goods were paid for. Goods were delivered. How is the vendor obligated to make good on these years after the fact?
2. Isn't the normal procedure that those goods are liquidated in the bankruptcy? In other words, you sell the goods in question since they are assets in the bankruptcy, you don't go after the original seller of the goods and say they must compensate at original purchase price years after the fact.
If weren't for the fact that it enumerates the dates, dollar amounts, and the exact coins in question, I would have thought this was a phishing scam.
Weird. >>
Hmmmm. Sounds like a weird way to ask for a return??
BTW, did the documents state that the coins would be returned to you if you refunded the payments made for the coins?
I guess it doesn't really matter though as the request seems downright silly. >>
If they have the coins, they'd probably just sell them. Sounds like they don't have them.
I would suggest filing a grievance against the attorneys involved in the appropriate venue for extortion. I do not think their behavior will be viewed favorably by the Bar Association, and their cost to defend themselves against such a grievance will greatly exceed their fees in the case.
OINK
There is absolutely no legal reason for you to even acknowledge receiving this...
never mind hiring an attorney!
Someone is just trying to bend you over and get money. That's it. So many people are scared to death of legal action that the simplest request will make them fork out the cash.
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<< <i>I would suggest filing a grievance against the attorneys involved in the appropriate venue for extortion. I do not think their behavior will be viewed favorably by the Bar Association, and their cost to defend themselves against such a grievance will greatly exceed their fees in the case.
OINK >>
It's interesting you mention that. I showed the letter to a colleague of mine who, while not licensed in this state, is a practicing attorney licensed in two other states. He said that not only is it laughable, but the attorney is completely misrepresenting the legal codes cited in the letter. If this were either of the two states he practices in, he says that the attorney would be vulnerable to an ethics complaint (best case) or outright charges of fraud.
He did say though, that based on his experiences thus far, for some reason there is virtually no ethics oversight in this particular state, which presumably is why the attorney thinks he can get away with crap like this.
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In Utah it is 90 days in most cases or up to two years if...well, I can't remember the specifics on the latter, but there are statue of limitations.
Did you offer your coins on a credit basis (payments over time)? If not, then the clawback provision should not apply to you.
Tyler
'dude
<< <i>
<< <i>I would suggest filing a grievance against the attorneys involved in the appropriate venue for extortion. I do not think their behavior will be viewed favorably by the Bar Association, and their cost to defend themselves against such a grievance will greatly exceed their fees in the case.
OINK >>
It's interesting you mention that. I showed the letter to a colleague of mine who, while not licensed in this state, is a practicing attorney licensed in two other states. He said that not only is it laughable, but the attorney is completely misrepresenting the legal codes cited in the letter. If this were either of the two states he practices in, he says that the attorney would be vulnerable to an ethics complaint (best case) or outright charges of fraud.
He did say though, that based on his experiences thus far, for some reason there is virtually no ethics oversight in this particular state, which presumably is why the attorney thinks he can get away with crap like this. >>
Did you ask him if any kind of response would reset the statute of limitations?
<< <i>I have been through bankruptcy "clawbacks". Bankruptcy laws vary by state of course, but my understanding is that there is 1) a staute of limitations and 2) the clawbacks apply to creditors. If not a creditor, bankruptcy trustees could sue Walmart, the local gas station, the Gap etc etc, or everyplace the bankrupt person spent money. The clawback is a means of disallowing the bankrupt person to favor certain creditors over another in giving preferential payments.
In Utah it is 90 days in most cases or up to two years if...well, I can't remember the specifics on the latter, but there are statue of limitations.
Did you offer your coins on a credit basis (payments over time)? If not, then the clawback provision should not apply to you.
Tyler >>
I'm no lawyer either, but I think the "clawback" could be applied to what the trustee considers an improper transaction whether it involved a creditor or not. Of course the trustee has to get a judge to agree with him.
<< <i>I would find it hard to believe that any legal provision will allow them to recover an expenditure that was six years in the past. If the coin(s) are still in possession of the debtor then they could ask to undo the transaction. If the coin(s) are no longer in the possession of the debtor then their recourse is with the current owner of the coins. I find it impossible under any interpretation of law that you are in possession of any illicitly derived portion of the debtor's estate.
I would suggest filing a grievance against the attorneys involved in the appropriate venue for extortion. I do not think their behavior will be viewed favorably by the Bar Association, and their cost to defend themselves against such a grievance will greatly exceed their fees in the case.
OINK >>
The trustee would only be seeking to reverse the original transaction. If the coins were sold to another party, that party probably would be out of the picture. One would think that if the guy broke even on the coins that it would be a wash. The fact that he was irresponsible twice should have some meaning too.