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Collar clash?

Just curious really...

image

Comments

  • 3keepSECRETif2rDEAD3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it's called "finning."

    Erik
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think it's called "finning."

    Erik >>


    +1
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks like it.... picture is super large... Cheers, RickO
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 28,954 ✭✭✭✭✭
    pardon my ignorance but what would be " finning "? i dont ever remember hearing of that. just wondering is all.
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doesn't look like a collar clash at all-
    looks like 'strike doubling', or also
    called mechanical doubling....

    I've seen this effect on numerous
    Morgan dollars, and do not consider
    it an error.

    As far as 'finning' - finning is a very thin
    raised area on the outer edge of the coin's
    obverse (usually) due to the Die being
    slightly mis-aligned when it comes down
    and stikes a coin- the very small area of
    mis-alignment of the die to the collar will
    cause the metal to flow up, leaving a thin
    'lip' - it can be a small area, or in some
    cases 50% or more of the rim is raised,
    or 'finned'.

    ( I need to add that the mis-alignment of
    the obv. die would be vertically; if it were
    a horizontal mis-alignment, you'd have
    a MAD - A Mis-Aligned Die which is different
    than a Finned Rim coin)
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • 3keepSECRETif2rDEAD3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>pardon my ignorance but what would be " finning "? i dont ever remember hearing of that. just wondering is all. >>



    coinworld.com article with reference to "finning."

    Erik
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,558 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fred, take a look again at the ends of the denticles closest to the rim, especially up near the top of the picture. There is some light scalloping that may be a minor collar clash.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tom, I see what you're pointing out,
    but it's very difficult from the scans
    to make any firm determination.

    Just doesn't look like it to me, but I'm
    open to further scans or info on this piece.
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 9,906 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Doesn't look like a collar clash at all-
    looks like 'strike doubling', or also
    called mechanical doubling....

    I've seen this effect on numerous
    Morgan dollars, and do not consider
    it an error.

    As far as 'finning' - finning is a very thin
    raised area on the outer edge of the coin's
    obverse (usually) due to the Die being
    slightly mis-aligned when it comes down
    and stikes a coin- the very small area of
    mis-alignment of the die to the collar will
    cause the metal to flow up, leaving a thin
    'lip' - it can be a small area, or in some
    cases 50% or more of the rim is raised,
    or 'finned'.

    ( I need to add that the mis-alignment of
    the obv. die would be vertically; if it were
    a horizontal mis-alignment, you'd have
    a MAD - A Mis-Aligned Die which is different
    than a Finned Rim coin) >>

    Mr. Weinberg can you please elaborate a bit more on your not labeling this(Mech. Doubling/Morgan examples) an error. As I understand it there are errors or varieties,or are there more classifications that I am unaware of? So if the minting process produces a faulty specimen such as this piece what classification will this fall under? I thought that any mistake in the minting process resulting in a faulty product was construed as an error/variety. I am by no means questioning your knowledge, as it outdistances mine. Just want to know the category this would fall under for future reference. Thanks.
    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If it's a collar clash, it would be noted as such, if the
    coin were submitted to a TPG under the Error tier.

    There are numerous anomalies that occur in the
    striking of coins during the minting process -
    and yes, they would be 'errors', but not necessarily
    collectable or certifiable as such.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 9,906 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you Mr. Weinberg for your time and response.
    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Just curious really... >>



    do we get full obv and rev shots to see the date or the clash at a diff angle.
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • phnataccphnatacc Posts: 367 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Just curious really... >>



    do we get full obv and rev shots to see the date or the clash at a diff angle.
    . >>



    Yup. Sorry, I was going to reply last night but, I was at the Baltimore show and hotels the NAT killed the PASV on my SFTP. Thanks everyone for the replies.

    It is a 1903 Morgan. I check a lot of Morgans for VAMs, regardless of their rarity or value, and it was actually your VAM-1D that prompted me to ask the question.

    image

    Thanks again to all for the analysis. Probably no reason for a different angle, but if anyone wants one I'll take it tomorrow while imaging some of my Baltimore newps,
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    it looks like my 1D kind of. i have high-res images linked from the 1d page you can check several pups for against your coin.

    your collar clash positioning seems to match but overall appears different.
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    when communicating with LVA, he often times will refer people to his wonderful publications (some authors could take lessons from him) and tell you which features are explained on which page in which publication.

    i pulled this off of one of his communications to share specifically for this thread:

    only list reeding indents as too hard to differentiate between finning and collar edge clash, as explained on pg. 97 in "Wonders of Peace Dollars" by Leroy Van Allen.]
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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