<< <i>Whether they knew they changed their mind or not is irrelevent. Upon a second viewing they decided they'd be willing to back a market price for the coin. In the end it is their money on the line every time they sticker a coin.
So... why oh why does anyone else care?! They don't need to be defended or criticized. >>
My beef with CAC is that they claim they are doing a great service for the hobby by separating the A/B coins from the C coins at a given grade level of the TPGs (NGC and PCGS). That's simply not true. They sticker coins for which they are willing to "make a market" using one of their coin exchanges. Nothing more...
If CAC would change their misleading (and simply false) website claims to say what they are really doing, then I'd be fine. They simply can't consistently differentiate A/B vs. C coins within a given grade; and, even if they could, they are only doing it under their own internal idiosyncratic definitions. I get that the pediatric way of explaining the A/B vs. C level coins is easy for the masses to understand, but it is NOT what the consumer is actually getting from their service. Period. >>
Please do explain the difference between PCGS' differentiating between each grade level with a "guarantee of grading accuracy" any different from what CAC promises to do in differentiating between A/B and C level coins.
<< <i>Whether they knew they changed their mind or not is irrelevent. Upon a second viewing they decided they'd be willing to back a market price for the coin. In the end it is their money on the line every time they sticker a coin.
So... why oh why does anyone else care?! They don't need to be defended or criticized. >>
My beef with CAC is that they claim they are doing a great service for the hobby by separating the A/B coins from the C coins at a given grade level of the TPGs (NGC and PCGS). That's simply not true. They sticker coins for which they are willing to "make a market" using one of their coin exchanges. Nothing more...
If CAC would change their misleading (and simply false) website claims to say what they are really doing, then I'd be fine. They simply can't consistently differentiate A/B vs. C coins within a given grade; and, even if they could, they are only doing it under their own internal idiosyncratic definitions. I get that the pediatric way of explaining the A/B vs. C level coins is easy for the masses to understand, but it is NOT what the consumer is actually getting from their service. Period. >>
Please do explain the difference between PCGS' differentiating between each grade level with a "guarantee of grading accuracy" any different from what CAC promises to do in differentiating between A/B and C level coins. >>
CAC doesn't grade coins. They pass or fail coins based on grades assigned by other companies. Your question doesn't make sense.
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
<< <i>Whether they knew they changed their mind or not is irrelevent. Upon a second viewing they decided they'd be willing to back a market price for the coin. In the end it is their money on the line every time they sticker a coin.
So... why oh why does anyone else care?! They don't need to be defended or criticized. >>
My beef with CAC is that they claim they are doing a great service for the hobby by separating the A/B coins from the C coins at a given grade level of the TPGs (NGC and PCGS). That's simply not true. They sticker coins for which they are willing to "make a market" using one of their coin exchanges. Nothing more...
If CAC would change their misleading (and simply false) website claims to say what they are really doing, then I'd be fine. They simply can't consistently differentiate A/B vs. C coins within a given grade; and, even if they could, they are only doing it under their own internal idiosyncratic definitions. I get that the pediatric way of explaining the A/B vs. C level coins is easy for the masses to understand, but it is NOT what the consumer is actually getting from their service. Period. >>
Please do explain the difference between PCGS' differentiating between each grade level with a "guarantee of grading accuracy" any different from what CAC promises to do in differentiating between A/B and C level coins. >>
CAC doesn't grade coins. They pass or fail coins based on grades assigned by other companies. Your question doesn't make sense. >>
Of course they grade coins even if it's only in their own mind. How else can they pass judgment on someone else's grade without first deciding what the coin's grade should be?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Whether they knew they changed their mind or not is irrelevent. Upon a second viewing they decided they'd be willing to back a market price for the coin. In the end it is their money on the line every time they sticker a coin.
So... why oh why does anyone else care?! They don't need to be defended or criticized. >>
My beef with CAC is that they claim they are doing a great service for the hobby by separating the A/B coins from the C coins at a given grade level of the TPGs (NGC and PCGS). That's simply not true. They sticker coins for which they are willing to "make a market" using one of their coin exchanges. Nothing more...
If CAC would change their misleading (and simply false) website claims to say what they are really doing, then I'd be fine. They simply can't consistently differentiate A/B vs. C coins within a given grade; and, even if they could, they are only doing it under their own internal idiosyncratic definitions. I get that the pediatric way of explaining the A/B vs. C level coins is easy for the masses to understand, but it is NOT what the consumer is actually getting from their service. Period. >>
Please do explain the difference between PCGS' differentiating between each grade level with a "guarantee of grading accuracy" any different from what CAC promises to do in differentiating between A/B and C level coins. >>
CAC doesn't grade coins. They pass or fail coins based on grades assigned by other companies. Your question doesn't make sense. >>
Of course they grade coins even if it's only in their own mind. How else can they pass judgment on someone else's grade without first deciding what the coin's grade should be? >>
They consult the oracle.
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
I agree that at first blush, this scenario seems to be an inconsistent application of CAC evaluation standards.
However, if CAC's endorsement goes beyond just confirming that the coin is "solid for the grade," and also means that CAC would gladly buy the coin, then the grading service (upon which the endorsement is placed) does matter.
I have seen multiple instances of accurately graded, slow moving "ATS"-graded coins that were subsequently crossed over at grade (to PCGS) and then sold quickly. The grading service does affect how a particular TPG coin is viewed in the market place. Thus, the withholding of the CAC endorsement on the ATS-graded coin may be more than just variability in the evaluation process.
This is a pretty good conjecture. I'm glad I read it.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>No surprise. CAC is a grading opinion made by humans. Sure there are only 3 choices; green, gold, or none. But still a decision has to be made and I bet there are coins that are "borderline" when submitted to CAC that could go either way depending on when they are submitted or the state of mind of the CAC'er at the time. >>
Opinions can change over time, under different conditions, moods, depending on how the last 50 coins graded fared, how close or far to lunch time, etc. Ask anyone in the business of rendering opinions, and they will concur. The TPGs and their graders would tell you the same.
All this revelation tells me is that the coin in question is not a lock for a green sticker, perhaps a B-/C+ coin. >>
Does anyone issue mood stickers? I mean other than all of them.
When CAC first started up it instilled a great deal of fear in the collector community as collectors feared that the value and liquidity of their coins would suffer significantly if the coins failed to sticker. Much of the hostility expressed toward CAC is a manifestation of that fear.
Am I missing something? I'm a collector and I certainly get charged for coins that don't sticker. Here every time. Who is not getting charged? I have to send in a check up from with the order for inspection costs plus shipping back, I've never received a check back while I certainly have received many coins back without a sticker. Can anyone clarify?
<< <i>When CAC first started up it instilled a great deal of fear in the collector community as collectors feared that the value and liquidity of their coins would suffer significantly if the coins failed to sticker. Much of the hostility expressed toward CAC is a manifestation of that fear.
CG >>
Of course collectors were scared- and you know who was even more scared? dealers!
With the introduction of CAC many dealers were no longer able to pass off to their clients that a coin was super high end and original when the coin was stripped/puttied and low end. Collectors who feared getting taken advantage of now had less fear as a strong active market was being made in CAC coins. The question somebody now asks is why the coin does not have a sticker. Sometimes its because it was never submitted, sometimes because the coin was played with and was rejected, and other times it is because John did not feel the grade on the holder was high end for the grade (but could and should be given that grade on technical grading merits) or it was completely over graded.
You don't feel Johns opinion is worth something? PCGS's guarantee only covers if something was done to doctor a coin. If the coin is over graded then PCGS wont buy the coin back unless its GROSSLY over graded (say 2-3 points). Offer John a coin that he stickered that did not deserve the grade and he will pay a very fair price to remove it from the market. I know I have done it twice. I don't know how many other dealers are offering with just a phone call or email $3600 for a $20 St in ms66 (either service). The major gold dealers are paying somewhere in the range of $2400 for a regular pcgs ms66 coin. Offer that major dealer 100 pieces and see whether he would still pay you $2400 for another 100 pieces. Offer John 100 pieces that he CAC'ed and he would be glad to buy them at $3600 (at $1,200 over regular bid each!!!!). on 100 pieces that's an extra $120,000. You cannot say that is not a real market maker. If you think his sticker is that easy to get- feel free to go to any coin show and cherry pick 100 ms66 St's and I would guess the most stickers you would receive is 10 (that's if you are a decent/expert grader).
It really is both annoying and laughable some people's perception of what CAC is and how it has revolutionized our hobby. If you are of the opinion that CAC is just another "grading service" and their opinion is foolish and worthless because of their "obvious inconsistency" then continue to stick your head in the ground and pretend like all is good and equal in the world of coins.
<< <i>Am I missing something? I'm a collector and I certainly get charged for coins that don't sticker. Here every time. Who is not getting charged? I have to send in a check up from with the order for inspection costs plus shipping back, I've never received a check back while I certainly have received many coins back without a sticker. Can anyone clarify? >>
Please note: Rates for Advanced Collector Members have switched to Dealer Pricing as of January 1, 2013.
<< <i>How did I know before even opening this thread that I'd see many posts by TDN -- defending CAC and touting the superiority of how a coin "looks" in a different brand of plastic. The coin is the coin -- this is an issue of consistency, plain and simple.
/eyeroll >>
Facts are facts. Deal with it. >>
Facts all come with points of view, Facts don't do what I want them to. I'm still waiting........
<< <i>Okay, yes my apologies. I was misinfored of the fee structure for CAC...mea culpa, I should have done my own homework rather than rely on hearsay...He who is without sin may now cast the first Stone Mountain...
But, I still stand by my opinion that the hobby has become so reliant upon TPGs and their offshoots, that it has taken much of the fun out of it. New collectors are now too gun shy to take a chance on a raw coin.
DOCTOR: You've only go a month to live.
2nd OPINION: You've only got a month to live.
3rd OPINION: You've only got a month to live.
4th OPINION: You're fine, you'll live to be a hundred.
PATIENT: I knew those other guys were nuts. >>
The way I remember it, it went something like this:
Doctor 1: We're going to have to amputate. Patient: I think I need a second oipinion. Doctor 2: We're going to have to amuputate. Patient: I think I need another opinion. Doctor 3: No need to amputate. Give it two weeks. It'll fall off on its own!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>>>In their defense they would have had to manually remember it.<<
How hard would that be? In addition to its inherent scarcity, the subject coin was part of a very famous collection. >>
I know from talking to JA that he brain dumps all but the most memorable submissions. I doubt he recognized the coin and even if he did he's not gonna take the time to research it. It's faster just to grade it again from a fresh perspective. >>
Well, now you've gone off the rails completely. The whole process of ranking a coin within its grade level relies on comparison to other coins graded at that level. How can "brain dumping" past coins be useful in that regard?
<< <i>Whether they knew they changed their mind or not is irrelevent. Upon a second viewing they decided they'd be willing to back a market price for the coin. In the end it is their money on the line every time they sticker a coin.
So... why oh why does anyone else care?! They don't need to be defended or criticized. >>
My beef with CAC is that they claim they are doing a great service for the hobby by separating the A/B coins from the C coins at a given grade level of the TPGs (NGC and PCGS). That's simply not true. They sticker coins for which they are willing to "make a market" using one of their coin exchanges. Nothing more...
If CAC would change their misleading (and simply false) website claims to say what they are really doing, then I'd be fine. They simply can't consistently differentiate A/B vs. C coins within a given grade; and, even if they could, they are only doing it under their own internal idiosyncratic definitions. I get that the pediatric way of explaining the A/B vs. C level coins is easy for the masses to understand, but it is NOT what the consumer is actually getting from their service. Period. >>
In doing so, they've convinced a large portion of this hobby that NGC coins are C coins unless proven otherwise by a sticker. CAC has helped to trash NGC prices over the past 5 years. It truly was quite incredible. I'm not saying the ammo wasn't out there to be fired. But, I was surprised at how the NGC discounts on choice and gem 19th century type generally increased from -5 to -15% to a range of -15 to -35%. I learned a valuable lesson in 2009 that the green stickers on my gem NGC type coins didn't protect me. Those coins were no longer worth within 0-10% of an equivalent PCGS coin like they had been for the previous 15 years. I saw these coins now selling for discounts of up to 35% while stickered....even if the coin was nicer than the stickered PCGS coin. The baby was thrown out with the bath water. This is part of the CAC fallout. If one held only PCGS coins that were solid for the grade they were largely unaffected. I never saw this coming back in 2008 or I would have sold every NGC coin I owned. PCGS couldn't have asked for a better outcome. The only solution as I see it is to crack out one's NGC coins and submit them raw to PCGS. Just be sure you have no body bags hiding in there or coins with a potential 2 grade deduction. Yes, CAC has helped to separate C coins from the A/B's...along with sullying the image of even the A/B coins in the process. Don't ask me how it happened....it just did.
Whether we like it or not a large portion of the retail hobby is buying coins via the internet and auction internet bids. They are going by the holder, insert, and whether starred, plused, or stickered. They are comfortable with that. And it's 10X more than any collector had at their disposal back in 1975-1985. Of course you still have the option of learning to grade well on your own to provide a 3rd opinion of any stickered slab (highly recommended).
<< <i>Or maybe this is just a linear "B" coin CAC. The edge has got to be somewhere. >>
The edge is wherever they define it for their own purposes (at any given time). This is all fine and dandy for creating a sight-unseen market, but plays hell when collectors start assigning more value to the opinion than it's really worth. Collectors and dealers who really know coins will always win in the end over those who rely on holders and stickers. And so it shall remain forever no matter how many more evaluation agencies appear on the horizon going forward.
<< <i>>>In their defense they would have had to manually remember it.<<
How hard would that be? In addition to its inherent scarcity, the subject coin was part of a very famous collection. >>
I know from talking to JA that he brain dumps all but the most memorable submissions. I doubt he recognized the coin and even if he did he's not gonna take the time to research it. It's faster just to grade it again from a fresh perspective. >>
Well, now you've gone off the rails completely. The whole process of ranking a coin within its grade level relies on comparison to other coins graded at that level. How can "brain dumping" past coins be useful in that regard? >>
He has personally said the same thing to me when he graciously discussed my coins with me awhile back.
Could you remember every coin you saw if you were him? Of course not, to imply this is absurd. Does he know was a choice EF45 Half Eagle looks like, of course. Do,you know what a "good day" is vs a "bad day" without remembering every day of your life?
<< <i>My beef with CAC is that they claim they are doing a great service for the hobby by separating the A/B coins from the C coins at a given grade level of the TPGs (NGC and PCGS). That's simply not true. They sticker coins for which they are willing to "make a market" using one of their coin exchanges. Nothing more...
If CAC would change their misleading (and simply false) website claims to say what they are really doing, then I'd be fine. They simply can't consistently differentiate A/B vs. C coins within a given grade; and, even if they could, they are only doing it under their own internal idiosyncratic definitions. I get that the pediatric way of explaining the A/B vs. C level coins is easy for the masses to understand, but it is NOT what the consumer is actually getting from their service. Period. >>
Thus far, by and large, the market players in the CAC market believe they have done *exactly* what they claim to do. Neither CAC, nor PCGS, nor NGC, nor anyone who assigns a grade to a coin has to be 100% right or 100% consistent. They only have to be consistent enough to maintain a broad faith in the market and, have deep enough pockets to fix any mistakes which might do harm the market.
Wow, that's a lot of posts. I had a response, but I'm sure everything I was going to say has already been said.
In short, I don't think this scenario is a big deal. I'm sure if one asked CAC, they would have a perfectly good reason why they only stickered the PCGS coin and if not, an admittance that their opinion changed. That's good enough for me.
<< <i>Wow, that's a lot of posts. I had a response, but I'm sure everything I was going to say has already been said.
In short, I don't think this scenario is a big deal. I'm sure if one asked CAC, they would have a perfectly good reason why they only stickered the PCGS coin and if not, an admittance that their opinion changed. That's good enough for me. >>
My thoughts exactly.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
<< <i>When CAC first started up it instilled a great deal of fear in the collector community as collectors feared that the value and liquidity of their coins would suffer significantly if the coins failed to sticker. Much of the hostility expressed toward CAC is a manifestation of that fear.
CG >>
Of course collectors were scared- and you know who was even more scared? dealers!
With the introduction of CAC many dealers were no longer able to pass off to their clients that a coin was super high end and original when the coin was stripped/puttied and low end. Collectors who feared getting taken advantage of now had less fear as a strong active market was being made in CAC coins. The question somebody now asks is why the coin does not have a sticker. Sometimes its because it was never submitted, sometimes because the coin was played with and was rejected, and other times it is because John did not feel the grade on the holder was high end for the grade (but could and should be given that grade on technical grading merits) or it was completely over graded.
You don't feel Johns opinion is worth something? PCGS's guarantee only covers if something was done to doctor a coin. If the coin is over graded then PCGS wont buy the coin back unless its GROSSLY over graded (say 2-3 points). Offer John a coin that he stickered that did not deserve the grade and he will pay a very fair price to remove it from the market. I know I have done it twice. I don't know how many other dealers are offering with just a phone call or email $3600 for a $20 St in ms66 (either service). The major gold dealers are paying somewhere in the range of $2400 for a regular pcgs ms66 coin. Offer that major dealer 100 pieces and see whether he would still pay you $2400 for another 100 pieces. Offer John 100 pieces that he CAC'ed and he would be glad to buy them at $3600 (at $1,200 over regular bid each!!!!). on 100 pieces that's an extra $120,000. You cannot say that is not a real market maker. If you think his sticker is that easy to get- feel free to go to any coin show and cherry pick 100 ms66 St's and I would guess the most stickers you would receive is 10 (that's if you are a decent/expert grader).
It really is both annoying and laughable some people's perception of what CAC is and how it has revolutionized our hobby. If you are of the opinion that CAC is just another "grading service" and their opinion is foolish and worthless because of their "obvious inconsistency" then continue to stick your head in the ground and pretend like all is good and equal in the world of coins. >>
Wow! Excellent post!
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
You might be overestimating the MS66 sticker rate on saints. It's probably closer to 5%. I saw 120 MS65's go through on one submission back in late 2009 and only 6 coins stickered. I have to think the MS66 rate is no better. Good thing that other coins as a rule have much higher sticker rates. For example there'd be no CAC market on gem type for example if only 5% of coins stickered. But, there are so many MS65-66 Saints in the market that filtering out the top 5-10% really is enough coins to go around for the ultra-discerning. Legend and other retail buyers claim to have large orders to fill for MS66 stickered saints. So if JA could sticker 100 of them, they'd be gone quickly. He wouldn't have to stock them for long. The line of supporting CAC dealers ready to buy material is part of the equation. Things are still at a point where there is not enough product in the system...similar to 1987-1989 with PCGS and NGC slabbed coins.
<< <i>Wow, that's a lot of posts. I had a response, but I'm sure everything I was going to say has already been said.
In short, I don't think this scenario is a big deal. I'm sure if one asked CAC, they would have a perfectly good reason why they only stickered the PCGS coin and if not, an admittance that their opinion changed. That's good enough for me. >>
<< <i>... In doing so, they've convinced a large portion of this hobby that NGC coins are C coins unless proven otherwise by a sticker. CAC has helped to trash NGC prices over the past 5 years. It truly was quite incredible. I'm not saying the ammo wasn't out there to be fired. But, I was surprised at how the NGC discounts on choice and gem 19th century type generally increased from -5 to -15% to a range of -15 to -35%. I learned a valuable lesson in 2009 that the green stickers on my gem NGC type coins didn't protect me. Those coins were no longer worth within 0-10% of an equivalent PCGS coin like they had been for the previous 15 years. I saw these coins now selling for discounts of up to 35% while stickered....even if the coin was nicer than the stickered PCGS coin. The baby was thrown out with the bath water. This is part of the CAC fallout. If one held only PCGS coins that were solid for the grade they were largely unaffected. I never saw this coming back in 2008 or I would have sold every NGC coin I owned. PCGS couldn't have asked for a better outcome. The only solution as I see it is to crack out one's NGC coins and submit them raw to PCGS. Just be sure you have no body bags hiding in there or coins with a potential 2 grade deduction. Yes, CAC has helped to separate C coins from the A/B's...along with sullying the image of even the A/B coins in the process. Don't ask me how it happened....it just did. ... >>
This sounds like an awesome way to make an easy 20%. Buy up nice NGC coins that don't have stickers, get them in PCGS holders and profit. If there are truly are market inefficiencies like this, they should be very quickly eliminated. And if not, maybe you can make up for your losses from selling your previous NGC coins.
- 2,075 NGC coins with CAC stickers - 7,616 PCGS coins with CAC stickers
Heritage right now has listed:
- 276 NGC coins with CAC stickers - 1,168 PCGS coins with CAC stickers
eBay righties has listed:
- 1,381 NGC coins with CAC stickers - 3,757 PCGS coins with CAC stickers
Clearly there is a trend.... >>
So what's the trend?
1) CAC stickers more coins in PCGS holders? 2) Owners of NGC coin don't send as many coins to CAC for acceptance? 3) More owners of PCGS/CAC coins want to sell them?
<< <i>it is quite possible that the coin had PVC on it in the NGC holder and was removed before it was put into the PCGS Holder. Happens all the time. >>
Could be. >>
You gents are really drawing at straws now. It could be that aliens took it up for a magical cleaning in their state of the art space ship also...
>>
When you condemn for inconsistency off few examples, you have to make allowances for reality. At least in the real world... >>
Right, and how many dozens of examples would one have to show for you to believe the facts TDN? I have no horse in this race, so I'm not looking at this issue through $$-tinted glasses. You, on the other hand.... >>
Like I said. It happens ALL THE TIME. I have had coins come back from CAC that were in PCGS and NGC holders with a little sticker on them that says PVC..... I then crack the coin, remove the PVC and resubmit. I am telling you this happens more than you think.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
Since I don't prescribe to conspiracy theories nor wild imaginations, the data shows that there are possibly more A/B coins in PCGS plastic than in NGC plastic.
Now most of us inherently know that, but this might help those that still believe differently...
Since I don't prescribe to conspiracy theories nor wild imaginations, the data shows that there are possibly more A/B coins in PCGS plastic than in NGC plastic.
Now most of us inherently know that, but this might help those that still believe differently... >>
Got it. That's what I thought. Take a little data and call it a trend.
<< <i>Based on what everyone here is saying, every TPG should grade a coin exactly the same each time it is submitted, right? We all know that is far from reality. Yet it seems this is expected from CAC. >>
CAC's job is much simpler than a TPG grading a coin the same each time. CAC already knows the grade on the plastic -- they just have to consistently agree or disagree with that. They aren't assigning a numerical grade to a raw coin. You're comparing apples to mini-vans. That you wouldn't understand the difference in these two scenarios doesn't surprise me. >>
How do YOU know what CAC's procedures are? You make ASSumptions that you know nothing about. Perhaps it is CAC procedure to cover the grade on the coin and grade it through the plastic - an eminently more difficult job than you ASSume. >>
This response from TDN seems like something that could come only from the keyboard of an extremely well-to-do (and perhaps, a bit profane for their age) four-year old.
Otherwise, the coin itself is pretty, and the controversy over consistency is much ado about nothing IMO. I would also agree generally that the aesthetics of a PCGS slab are superior to the NGC offering, but then, I've always felt this way.
<< <i>Am I missing something? I'm a collector and I certainly get charged for coins that don't sticker. Here every time. Who is not getting charged? I have to send in a check up from with the order for inspection costs plus shipping back, I've never received a check back while I certainly have received many coins back without a sticker. Can anyone clarify? >>
You might ask them if you have any credit built up. You might also check to make sure that you show as a collector and not a dealer.
<< <i>This sounds like an awesome way to make an easy 20%. Buy up nice NGC coins that don't have stickers, get them in PCGS holders and profit. If there are truly are market inefficiencies like this, they should be very quickly eliminated. And if not, maybe you can make up for your losses from selling your previous NGC coins. >>
1. You won't be able to do this consistently by crossing them at grade....you will have to crack them out. And in doing so, need to be 99.9% sure the coin will not get bagged for any reason. 1 BB wipes out several winners.
2. This market "inefficiency" has been around for over 15 years now. It's not going away any time soon.
3. Most of the "easy" winners have already had their holders switched over. PCGS wants the very best NGC coins in their holders (ie A quality coins)....but not necessarily the B coins....and certainly not the C coins.
4. A steady influx of former NGC coins makes its way to PCGS because of this 20-50% leverage. But PCGS also knows that they want this flow to continue. The end result is that the odds are heavily stacked against you. Let's face it. The biggest source of "new" coins available to PCGS are NGC (and PCGS) coins. And the tougher they are on them the more likely they keep coming back.
5. You'd get better results and profits just sticking to PCGS graded coins and getting them upgraded through their various programs. This also minimizes your loss potential. Getting 1 pt upgrades or + signs is also worth the same 20-50% or 50-100% gain. If it were that easy though, you wouldn't have seen so many smaller coin dealers and crack out artists close up shop and either leave the business or go to work for a large retailer.
I was at a coin show on Sunday and had a chance to talk to one of the finest graders that came out of the 1987-1990 coin market not to mention that he made millions doing it. That guy bought most of his coins raw, often at auctions and made some of the most amazing scores you have ever seen. He's still only in his mid 40's but has pretty much given up the grading game as he used to play it. The leverage may still be there but the chances of success are much smaller. With most higher powered coins at auction and on the bourse floor now in slabs, you have to compete against the retail public. This wasn't the case so much in 1987-1990 when >90% of the coins on the market were raw. I'm sure this guy won't pass up a clearly undergraded coin that he knows he can crossed or in a higher holder. But he avoids the auctions these days because the stronger prices eat too far into the potential leverage. In short, there is no "easy 20%." That train left the station years ago. The "easy" 5-10% is in owning an auction house and just pushing through product. And even that's not "easy." If you already owned stickered NGC coins that sell for a 20-40% discount, then by all means crack them out and send them to PCGS. But, scouring the bourse floor for those same coins isn't going to work because most retailers aren't going to discount those coins 20-40% for you. They will be asking as close to PCGS money as they can get (0-15%)....even if they did buy them for 20-40% discounts. Then it's up to you to try and squeak out that last 10%.
<< <i>This sounds like an awesome way to make an easy 20%. Buy up nice NGC coins that don't have stickers, get them in PCGS holders and profit. If there are truly are market inefficiencies like this, they should be very quickly eliminated. And if not, maybe you can make up for your losses from selling your previous NGC coins. >>
1. You won't be able to do this consistently by crossing them at grade....you will have to crack them out. And in doing so, need to be 99.9% sure the coin will not get bagged for any reason. 1 BB wipes out several winners.
2. This market "inefficiency" has been around for over 15 years now. It's not going away any time soon.
3. Most of the "easy" winners have already had their holders switched over. PCGS wants the very best NGC coins in their holders (ie A quality coins)....but not necessarily the B coins....and certainly not the C coins.
4. A steady influx of former NGC coins makes its way to PCGS because of this 20-50% leverage. But PCGS also knows that they want this flow to continue. The end result is that the odds are heavily stacked against you. Let's face it. The biggest source of "new" coins available to PCGS are NGC (and PCGS) coins. And the tougher they are on them the more likely they keep coming back.
5. You'd get better results and profits just sticking to PCGS graded coins and getting them upgraded through their various programs. This also minimizes your loss potential. Getting 1 pt upgrades or + signs is also worth the same 20-50% or 50-100% gain. If it were that easy though, you wouldn't have seen so many smaller coin dealers and crack out artists close up shop and either leave the business or go to work for a large retailer.
I was at a coin show on Sunday and had a chance to talk to one of the finest graders that came out of the 1987-1990 coin market not to mention that he made millions doing it. That guy bought most of his coins raw, often at auctions and made some of the most amazing scores you have ever seen. He's still only in his mid 40's but has pretty much given up the grading game as he used to play it. The leverage may still be there but the chances of success are much smaller. With most higher powered coins at auction and on the bourse floor now in slabs, you have to compete against the retail public. This wasn't the case so much in 1987-1990 when >90% of the coins on the market were raw. I'm sure this guy won't pass up a clearly undergraded coin that he knows he can crossed or in a higher holder. But he avoids the auctions these days because the stronger prices eat too far into the potential leverage. In short, there is no "easy 20%." That train left the station years ago. The "easy" 5-10% is in owning an auction house and just pushing through product. And even that's not "easy." If you already owned stickered NGC coins that sell for a 20-40% discount, then by all means crack them out and send them to PCGS. But, scouring the bourse floor for those same coins isn't going to work because most retailers aren't going to discount those coins 20-40% for you. They will be asking as close to PCGS money as they can get (0-15%)....even if they did buy them for 20-40% discounts. Then it's up to you to try and squeak out that last 10%. >>
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Whether they knew they changed their mind or not is irrelevent. Upon a second viewing they decided they'd be willing to back a market price for the coin. In the end it is their money on the line every time they sticker a coin.
So... why oh why does anyone else care?! They don't need to be defended or criticized. >>
My beef with CAC is that they claim they are doing a great service for the hobby by separating the A/B coins from the C coins at a given grade level of the TPGs (NGC and PCGS). That's simply not true. They sticker coins for which they are willing to "make a market" using one of their coin exchanges. Nothing more...
If CAC would change their misleading (and simply false) website claims to say what they are really doing, then I'd be fine. They simply can't consistently differentiate A/B vs. C coins within a given grade; and, even if they could, they are only doing it under their own internal idiosyncratic definitions. I get that the pediatric way of explaining the A/B vs. C level coins is easy for the masses to understand, but it is NOT what the consumer is actually getting from their service. Period. >>
PCGS service description.
Please do explain the difference between PCGS' differentiating between each grade level with a "guarantee of grading accuracy" any different from what CAC promises to do in differentiating between A/B and C level coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Whether they knew they changed their mind or not is irrelevent. Upon a second viewing they decided they'd be willing to back a market price for the coin. In the end it is their money on the line every time they sticker a coin.
So... why oh why does anyone else care?! They don't need to be defended or criticized. >>
My beef with CAC is that they claim they are doing a great service for the hobby by separating the A/B coins from the C coins at a given grade level of the TPGs (NGC and PCGS). That's simply not true. They sticker coins for which they are willing to "make a market" using one of their coin exchanges. Nothing more...
If CAC would change their misleading (and simply false) website claims to say what they are really doing, then I'd be fine. They simply can't consistently differentiate A/B vs. C coins within a given grade; and, even if they could, they are only doing it under their own internal idiosyncratic definitions. I get that the pediatric way of explaining the A/B vs. C level coins is easy for the masses to understand, but it is NOT what the consumer is actually getting from their service. Period. >>
PCGS service description.
Please do explain the difference between PCGS' differentiating between each grade level with a "guarantee of grading accuracy" any different from what CAC promises to do in differentiating between A/B and C level coins. >>
CAC doesn't grade coins. They pass or fail coins based on grades assigned by other companies. Your question doesn't make sense.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Whether they knew they changed their mind or not is irrelevent. Upon a second viewing they decided they'd be willing to back a market price for the coin. In the end it is their money on the line every time they sticker a coin.
So... why oh why does anyone else care?! They don't need to be defended or criticized. >>
My beef with CAC is that they claim they are doing a great service for the hobby by separating the A/B coins from the C coins at a given grade level of the TPGs (NGC and PCGS). That's simply not true. They sticker coins for which they are willing to "make a market" using one of their coin exchanges. Nothing more...
If CAC would change their misleading (and simply false) website claims to say what they are really doing, then I'd be fine. They simply can't consistently differentiate A/B vs. C coins within a given grade; and, even if they could, they are only doing it under their own internal idiosyncratic definitions. I get that the pediatric way of explaining the A/B vs. C level coins is easy for the masses to understand, but it is NOT what the consumer is actually getting from their service. Period. >>
PCGS service description.
Please do explain the difference between PCGS' differentiating between each grade level with a "guarantee of grading accuracy" any different from what CAC promises to do in differentiating between A/B and C level coins. >>
CAC doesn't grade coins. They pass or fail coins based on grades assigned by other companies. Your question doesn't make sense. >>
Of course they grade coins even if it's only in their own mind. How else can they pass judgment on someone else's grade without first deciding what the coin's grade should be?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Whether they knew they changed their mind or not is irrelevent. Upon a second viewing they decided they'd be willing to back a market price for the coin. In the end it is their money on the line every time they sticker a coin.
So... why oh why does anyone else care?! They don't need to be defended or criticized. >>
My beef with CAC is that they claim they are doing a great service for the hobby by separating the A/B coins from the C coins at a given grade level of the TPGs (NGC and PCGS). That's simply not true. They sticker coins for which they are willing to "make a market" using one of their coin exchanges. Nothing more...
If CAC would change their misleading (and simply false) website claims to say what they are really doing, then I'd be fine. They simply can't consistently differentiate A/B vs. C coins within a given grade; and, even if they could, they are only doing it under their own internal idiosyncratic definitions. I get that the pediatric way of explaining the A/B vs. C level coins is easy for the masses to understand, but it is NOT what the consumer is actually getting from their service. Period. >>
PCGS service description.
Please do explain the difference between PCGS' differentiating between each grade level with a "guarantee of grading accuracy" any different from what CAC promises to do in differentiating between A/B and C level coins. >>
CAC doesn't grade coins. They pass or fail coins based on grades assigned by other companies. Your question doesn't make sense. >>
Of course they grade coins even if it's only in their own mind. How else can they pass judgment on someone else's grade without first deciding what the coin's grade should be? >>
They consult the oracle.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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However, if CAC's endorsement goes beyond just confirming that the coin is "solid for the grade," and also means that CAC would gladly buy the coin, then the grading service (upon which the endorsement is placed) does matter.
I have seen multiple instances of accurately graded, slow moving "ATS"-graded coins that were subsequently crossed over at grade (to PCGS) and then sold quickly. The grading service does affect how a particular TPG coin is viewed in the market place. Thus, the withholding of the CAC endorsement on the ATS-graded coin may be more than just variability in the evaluation process.
This is a pretty good conjecture. I'm glad I read it.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
<< <i>No surprise. CAC is a grading opinion made by humans. Sure there are only 3 choices; green, gold, or none. But still a decision has to be made and I bet there are coins that are "borderline" when submitted to CAC that could go either way depending on when they are submitted or the state of mind of the CAC'er at the time. >>
Opinions can change over time, under different conditions, moods, depending on how the last 50 coins graded fared, how close or far to lunch time, etc. Ask anyone in the business of rendering opinions, and they will concur. The TPGs and their graders would tell you the same.
All this revelation tells me is that the coin in question is not a lock for a green sticker, perhaps a B-/C+ coin. >>
Does anyone issue mood stickers? I mean other than all of them.
<< <i>Very interesting thread...
njcc >>
<< <i>That being said I always thought PCGS is clearer, sounds like more here think the same. >>
I wish I'd known about that NGC's difference in museum quality acrylic thickness would keep me from fully seeing my newp...
CG
I think the dude who sent this to PCGS and then back to CAC is a Damn Genius! Good for him! Also, nice coin!!
<< <i>When CAC first started up it instilled a great deal of fear in the collector community as collectors feared that the value and liquidity of their coins would suffer significantly if the coins failed to sticker. Much of the hostility expressed toward CAC is a manifestation of that fear.
CG >>
Of course collectors were scared- and you know who was even more scared? dealers!
With the introduction of CAC many dealers were no longer able to pass off to their clients that a coin was super high end and original when the coin was stripped/puttied and low end. Collectors who feared getting taken advantage of now had less fear as a strong active market was being made in CAC coins. The question somebody now asks is why the coin does not have a sticker. Sometimes its because it was never submitted, sometimes because the coin was played with and was rejected, and other times it is because John did not feel the grade on the holder was high end for the grade (but could and should be given that grade on technical grading merits) or it was completely over graded.
You don't feel Johns opinion is worth something? PCGS's guarantee only covers if something was done to doctor a coin. If the coin is over graded then PCGS wont buy the coin back unless its GROSSLY over graded (say 2-3 points). Offer John a coin that he stickered that did not deserve the grade and he will pay a very fair price to remove it from the market. I know I have done it twice. I don't know how many other dealers are offering with just a phone call or email $3600 for a $20 St in ms66 (either service).
The major gold dealers are paying somewhere in the range of $2400 for a regular pcgs ms66 coin. Offer that major dealer 100 pieces and see whether he would still pay you $2400 for another 100 pieces. Offer John 100 pieces that he CAC'ed and he would be glad to buy them at $3600 (at $1,200 over regular bid each!!!!). on 100 pieces that's an extra $120,000. You cannot say that is not a real market maker. If you think his sticker is that easy to get- feel free to go to any coin show and cherry pick 100 ms66 St's and I would guess the most stickers you would receive is 10 (that's if you are a decent/expert grader).
It really is both annoying and laughable some people's perception of what CAC is and how it has revolutionized our hobby. If you are of the opinion that CAC is just another "grading service" and their opinion is foolish and worthless because of their "obvious inconsistency" then continue to stick your head in the ground and pretend like all is good and equal in the world of coins.
<< <i>Am I missing something? I'm a collector and I certainly get charged for coins that don't sticker. Here every time. Who is not getting charged? I have to send in a check up from with the order for inspection costs plus shipping back, I've never received a check back while I certainly have received many coins back without a sticker. Can anyone clarify? >>
Please note: Rates for Advanced Collector Members have switched to Dealer Pricing as of January 1, 2013.
<< <i>
<< <i>How did I know before even opening this thread that I'd see many posts by TDN -- defending CAC and touting the superiority of how a coin "looks" in a different brand of plastic. The coin is the coin -- this is an issue of consistency, plain and simple.
/eyeroll >>
Facts are facts. Deal with it. >>
Facts all come with points of view,
Facts don't do what I want them to.
I'm still waiting........
-Talking Heads
<< <i>I have no monetary stake in CAC though I do like and respect JA. >>
Hogwash. You are a major stakeholder in a firm that retails exclusively stickered coins.
<< <i>Okay, yes my apologies. I was misinfored of the fee structure for CAC...mea culpa, I should have done my own homework rather than rely on hearsay...He who is without sin may now cast the first Stone Mountain...
But, I still stand by my opinion that the hobby has become so reliant upon TPGs and their offshoots, that it has taken much of the fun out of it. New collectors are now too gun shy to take a chance on a raw coin.
DOCTOR: You've only go a month to live.
2nd OPINION: You've only got a month to live.
3rd OPINION: You've only got a month to live.
4th OPINION: You're fine, you'll live to be a hundred.
PATIENT: I knew those other guys were nuts. >>
The way I remember it, it went something like this:
Doctor 1: We're going to have to amputate.
Patient: I think I need a second oipinion.
Doctor 2: We're going to have to amuputate.
Patient: I think I need another opinion.
Doctor 3: No need to amputate. Give it two weeks. It'll fall off on its own!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>>>In their defense they would have had to manually remember it.<<
How hard would that be? In addition to its inherent scarcity, the subject coin was part of a very famous collection. >>
I know from talking to JA that he brain dumps all but the most memorable submissions. I doubt he recognized the coin and even if he did he's not gonna take the time to research it. It's faster just to grade it again from a fresh perspective. >>
Well, now you've gone off the rails completely. The whole process of ranking a coin within its grade level
relies on comparison to other coins graded at that level. How can "brain dumping" past coins be
useful in that regard?
<< <i>
<< <i>Whether they knew they changed their mind or not is irrelevent. Upon a second viewing they decided they'd be willing to back a market price for the coin. In the end it is their money on the line every time they sticker a coin.
So... why oh why does anyone else care?! They don't need to be defended or criticized. >>
My beef with CAC is that they claim they are doing a great service for the hobby by separating the A/B coins from the C coins at a given grade level of the TPGs (NGC and PCGS). That's simply not true. They sticker coins for which they are willing to "make a market" using one of their coin exchanges. Nothing more...
If CAC would change their misleading (and simply false) website claims to say what they are really doing, then I'd be fine. They simply can't consistently differentiate A/B vs. C coins within a given grade; and, even if they could, they are only doing it under their own internal idiosyncratic definitions. I get that the pediatric way of explaining the A/B vs. C level coins is easy for the masses to understand, but it is NOT what the consumer is actually getting from their service. Period. >>
In doing so, they've convinced a large portion of this hobby that NGC coins are C coins unless proven otherwise by a sticker. CAC has helped to trash NGC prices over the past 5 years. It truly was quite incredible. I'm not saying the ammo wasn't out there to be fired. But, I was surprised at how the NGC discounts on choice and gem 19th century type generally increased from -5 to -15% to a range of -15 to -35%. I learned a valuable lesson in 2009 that the green stickers on my gem NGC type coins didn't protect me. Those coins were no longer worth within 0-10% of an equivalent PCGS coin like they had been for the previous 15 years. I saw these coins now selling for discounts of up to 35% while stickered....even if the coin was nicer than the stickered PCGS coin. The baby was thrown out with the bath water. This is part of the CAC fallout. If one held only PCGS coins that were solid for the grade they were largely unaffected. I never saw this coming back in 2008 or I would have sold every NGC coin I owned. PCGS couldn't have asked for a better outcome. The only solution as I see it is to crack out one's NGC coins and submit them raw to PCGS. Just be sure you have no body bags hiding in there or coins with a potential 2 grade deduction. Yes, CAC has helped to separate C coins from the A/B's...along with sullying the image of even the A/B coins in the process. Don't ask me how it happened....it just did.
Whether we like it or not a large portion of the retail hobby is buying coins via the internet and auction internet bids. They are going by the holder, insert, and whether starred, plused, or stickered. They are comfortable with that. And it's 10X more than any collector had at their disposal back in 1975-1985. Of course you still have the option of learning to grade well on your own to provide a 3rd opinion of any stickered slab (highly recommended).
<< <i>Or maybe this is just a linear "B" coin CAC. The edge has got to be somewhere. >>
The edge is wherever they define it for their own purposes (at any given time). This is all fine
and dandy for creating a sight-unseen market, but plays hell when collectors start assigning
more value to the opinion than it's really worth. Collectors and dealers who really know coins
will always win in the end over those who rely on holders and stickers. And so it shall remain
forever no matter how many more evaluation agencies appear on the horizon going forward.
EOM.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>>>In their defense they would have had to manually remember it.<<
How hard would that be? In addition to its inherent scarcity, the subject coin was part of a very famous collection. >>
I know from talking to JA that he brain dumps all but the most memorable submissions. I doubt he recognized the coin and even if he did he's not gonna take the time to research it. It's faster just to grade it again from a fresh perspective. >>
Well, now you've gone off the rails completely. The whole process of ranking a coin within its grade level
relies on comparison to other coins graded at that level. How can "brain dumping" past coins be
useful in that regard? >>
He has personally said the same thing to me when he graciously discussed my coins with me awhile back.
Could you remember every coin you saw if you were him? Of course not, to imply this is absurd. Does he know was a choice EF45 Half Eagle looks like, of course. Do,you know what a "good day" is vs a "bad day" without remembering every day of your life?
Latin American Collection
YWIA!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>My beef with CAC is that they claim they are doing a great service for the hobby by separating the A/B coins from the C coins at a given grade level of the TPGs (NGC and PCGS). That's simply not true. They sticker coins for which they are willing to "make a market" using one of their coin exchanges. Nothing more...
If CAC would change their misleading (and simply false) website claims to say what they are really doing, then I'd be fine. They simply can't consistently differentiate A/B vs. C coins within a given grade; and, even if they could, they are only doing it under their own internal idiosyncratic definitions. I get that the pediatric way of explaining the A/B vs. C level coins is easy for the masses to understand, but it is NOT what the consumer is actually getting from their service. Period. >>
Thus far, by and large, the market players in the CAC market believe they have done *exactly* what they claim to do. Neither CAC, nor PCGS, nor NGC, nor anyone who assigns a grade to a coin has to be 100% right or 100% consistent. They only have to be consistent enough to maintain a broad faith in the market and, have deep enough pockets to fix any mistakes which might do harm the market.
In short, I don't think this scenario is a big deal. I'm sure if one asked CAC, they would have a perfectly good reason why they only stickered the PCGS coin and if not, an admittance that their opinion changed. That's good enough for me.
<< <i>Wow, that's a lot of posts. I had a response, but I'm sure everything I was going to say has already been said.
In short, I don't think this scenario is a big deal. I'm sure if one asked CAC, they would have a perfectly good reason why they only stickered the PCGS coin and if not, an admittance that their opinion changed. That's good enough for me. >>
My thoughts exactly.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
<< <i>
<< <i>When CAC first started up it instilled a great deal of fear in the collector community as collectors feared that the value and liquidity of their coins would suffer significantly if the coins failed to sticker. Much of the hostility expressed toward CAC is a manifestation of that fear.
CG >>
Of course collectors were scared- and you know who was even more scared? dealers!
With the introduction of CAC many dealers were no longer able to pass off to their clients that a coin was super high end and original when the coin was stripped/puttied and low end. Collectors who feared getting taken advantage of now had less fear as a strong active market was being made in CAC coins. The question somebody now asks is why the coin does not have a sticker. Sometimes its because it was never submitted, sometimes because the coin was played with and was rejected, and other times it is because John did not feel the grade on the holder was high end for the grade (but could and should be given that grade on technical grading merits) or it was completely over graded.
You don't feel Johns opinion is worth something? PCGS's guarantee only covers if something was done to doctor a coin. If the coin is over graded then PCGS wont buy the coin back unless its GROSSLY over graded (say 2-3 points). Offer John a coin that he stickered that did not deserve the grade and he will pay a very fair price to remove it from the market. I know I have done it twice. I don't know how many other dealers are offering with just a phone call or email $3600 for a $20 St in ms66 (either service).
The major gold dealers are paying somewhere in the range of $2400 for a regular pcgs ms66 coin. Offer that major dealer 100 pieces and see whether he would still pay you $2400 for another 100 pieces. Offer John 100 pieces that he CAC'ed and he would be glad to buy them at $3600 (at $1,200 over regular bid each!!!!). on 100 pieces that's an extra $120,000. You cannot say that is not a real market maker. If you think his sticker is that easy to get- feel free to go to any coin show and cherry pick 100 ms66 St's and I would guess the most stickers you would receive is 10 (that's if you are a decent/expert grader).
It really is both annoying and laughable some people's perception of what CAC is and how it has revolutionized our hobby. If you are of the opinion that CAC is just another "grading service" and their opinion is foolish and worthless because of their "obvious inconsistency" then continue to stick your head in the ground and pretend like all is good and equal in the world of coins. >>
Wow! Excellent post!
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Good thing that other coins as a rule have much higher sticker rates. For example there'd be no CAC market on gem type for example if only 5% of coins stickered. But, there are so many MS65-66 Saints in the market that
filtering out the top 5-10% really is enough coins to go around for the ultra-discerning. Legend and other retail buyers claim to have large orders to fill for MS66 stickered saints. So if JA could sticker 100 of them, they'd be gone
quickly. He wouldn't have to stock them for long. The line of supporting CAC dealers ready to buy material is part of the equation. Things are still at a point where there is not enough product in the system...similar to 1987-1989
with PCGS and NGC slabbed coins.
<< <i>You'll be happy to know that I decided NOT to make my SPOTD (Stupid Post Of The Day!
YWIA! >>
With 24k+ posts over 10 years, that'd be almost 3,650 posts....
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, that's a lot of posts. I had a response, but I'm sure everything I was going to say has already been said.
In short, I don't think this scenario is a big deal. I'm sure if one asked CAC, they would have a perfectly good reason why they only stickered the PCGS coin and if not, an admittance that their opinion changed. That's good enough for me. >>
My thoughts exactly. >>
I am down with that.
<< <i>...
In doing so, they've convinced a large portion of this hobby that NGC coins are C coins unless proven otherwise by a sticker. CAC has helped to trash NGC prices over the past 5 years. It truly was quite incredible. I'm not saying the ammo wasn't out there to be fired. But, I was surprised at how the NGC discounts on choice and gem 19th century type generally increased from -5 to -15% to a range of -15 to -35%. I learned a valuable lesson in 2009 that the green stickers on my gem NGC type coins didn't protect me. Those coins were no longer worth within 0-10% of an equivalent PCGS coin like they had been for the previous 15 years. I saw these coins now selling for discounts of up to 35% while stickered....even if the coin was nicer than the stickered PCGS coin. The baby was thrown out with the bath water. This is part of the CAC fallout. If one held only PCGS coins that were solid for the grade they were largely unaffected. I never saw this coming back in 2008 or I would have sold every NGC coin I owned. PCGS couldn't have asked for a better outcome. The only solution as I see it is to crack out one's NGC coins and submit them raw to PCGS. Just be sure you have no body bags hiding in there or coins with a potential 2 grade deduction. Yes, CAC has helped to separate C coins from the A/B's...along with sullying the
image of even the A/B coins in the process. Don't ask me how it happened....it just did. ... >>
This sounds like an awesome way to make an easy 20%. Buy up nice NGC coins that don't have stickers, get them in PCGS holders and profit. If there are truly are market inefficiencies like this, they should be very quickly eliminated. And if not, maybe you can make up for your losses from selling your previous NGC coins.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Stacks Bowers has sold:
- 2,075 NGC coins with CAC stickers
- 7,616 PCGS coins with CAC stickers
Heritage right now has listed:
- 276 NGC coins with CAC stickers
- 1,168 PCGS coins with CAC stickers
eBay righties has listed:
- 1,381 NGC coins with CAC stickers
- 3,757 PCGS coins with CAC stickers
Clearly there is a trend....
<< <i>For what it's worth, here's some data....
Stacks Bowers has sold:
- 2,075 NGC coins with CAC stickers
- 7,616 PCGS coins with CAC stickers
Heritage right now has listed:
- 276 NGC coins with CAC stickers
- 1,168 PCGS coins with CAC stickers
eBay righties has listed:
- 1,381 NGC coins with CAC stickers
- 3,757 PCGS coins with CAC stickers
Clearly there is a trend.... >>
So what's the trend?
1) CAC stickers more coins in PCGS holders?
2) Owners of NGC coin don't send as many coins to CAC for acceptance?
3) More owners of PCGS/CAC coins want to sell them?
Just curious.
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<< <i>it is quite possible that the coin had PVC on it in the NGC holder and was removed before it was put into the PCGS Holder. Happens all the time. >>
Could be. >>
You gents are really drawing at straws now. It could be that aliens took it up for a magical cleaning in their state of the art space ship also...
When you condemn for inconsistency off few examples, you have to make allowances for reality. At least in the real world... >>
Right, and how many dozens of examples would one have to show for you to believe the facts TDN? I have no horse in this race, so I'm not looking at this issue through $$-tinted glasses. You, on the other hand.... >>
Like I said. It happens ALL THE TIME. I have had coins come back from CAC that were in PCGS and NGC holders with a little sticker on them that says PVC..... I then crack the coin, remove the PVC and resubmit. I am telling you this happens more than you think.
Since I don't prescribe to conspiracy theories nor wild imaginations, the data shows that there are possibly more A/B coins in PCGS plastic than in NGC plastic.
Now most of us inherently know that, but this might help those that still believe differently...
<< <i>So what's the trend?
Since I don't prescribe to conspiracy theories nor wild imaginations, the data shows that there are possibly more A/B coins in PCGS plastic than in NGC plastic.
Now most of us inherently know that, but this might help those that still believe differently... >>
Got it. That's what I thought. Take a little data and call it a trend.
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<< <i>Based on what everyone here is saying, every TPG should grade a coin exactly the same each time it is submitted, right? We all know that is far from reality. Yet it seems this is expected from CAC. >>
CAC's job is much simpler than a TPG grading a coin the same each time. CAC already knows the grade on the plastic -- they just have to consistently agree or disagree with that. They aren't assigning a numerical grade to a raw coin. You're comparing apples to mini-vans. That you wouldn't understand the difference in these two scenarios doesn't surprise me. >>
How do YOU know what CAC's procedures are? You make ASSumptions that you know nothing about. Perhaps it is CAC procedure to cover the grade on the coin and grade it through the plastic - an eminently more difficult job than you ASSume. >>
This response from TDN seems like something that could come only from the keyboard of an extremely well-to-do (and perhaps, a bit profane for their age) four-year old.
Otherwise, the coin itself is pretty, and the controversy over consistency is much ado about nothing IMO. I would also agree generally that the aesthetics of a PCGS slab are superior to the NGC offering, but then, I've always felt this way.
<< <i>Am I missing something? I'm a collector and I certainly get charged for coins that don't sticker. Here every time. Who is not getting charged? I have to send in a check up from with the order for inspection costs plus shipping back, I've never received a check back while I certainly have received many coins back without a sticker. Can anyone clarify? >>
You might ask them if you have any credit built up. You might also check to make sure that you show as a collector and not a dealer.
<< <i>This sounds like an awesome way to make an easy 20%. Buy up nice NGC coins that don't have stickers, get them in PCGS holders and profit. If there are truly are market inefficiencies like this, they should be very quickly eliminated. And if not, maybe you can make up for your losses from selling your previous NGC coins. >>
1. You won't be able to do this consistently by crossing them at grade....you will have to crack them out. And in doing so, need to be 99.9% sure the coin will not get bagged for any reason. 1 BB wipes out several winners.
2. This market "inefficiency" has been around for over 15 years now. It's not going away any time soon.
3. Most of the "easy" winners have already had their holders switched over. PCGS wants the very best NGC coins in their holders (ie A quality coins)....but not necessarily the B coins....and certainly not the C coins.
4. A steady influx of former NGC coins makes its way to PCGS because of this 20-50% leverage. But PCGS also knows that they want this flow to continue. The end result is that the odds are heavily stacked against you.
Let's face it. The biggest source of "new" coins available to PCGS are NGC (and PCGS) coins. And the tougher they are on them the more likely they keep coming back.
5. You'd get better results and profits just sticking to PCGS graded coins and getting them upgraded through their various programs. This also minimizes your loss potential. Getting 1 pt upgrades or + signs is also worth the
same 20-50% or 50-100% gain. If it were that easy though, you wouldn't have seen so many smaller coin dealers and crack out artists close up shop and either leave the business or go to work for a large retailer.
I was at a coin show on Sunday and had a chance to talk to one of the finest graders that came out of the 1987-1990 coin market not to mention that he made millions doing it. That guy bought most of his coins raw, often at auctions and made some of the most amazing scores you have ever seen. He's still only in his mid 40's but has pretty much given up the grading game as he used to play it. The leverage may still be there but the chances of success are much smaller. With most higher powered coins at auction and on the bourse floor now in slabs, you have to compete against the retail public. This wasn't the case so much in 1987-1990 when >90% of the coins on the market were raw. I'm sure this guy won't pass up a clearly undergraded coin that he knows he can crossed or in a higher holder. But he avoids the auctions these days because the stronger prices eat too far into the potential leverage. In short, there is no "easy 20%." That train left the station years ago. The "easy" 5-10% is in owning an auction house and just pushing through product. And even that's not "easy." If you already owned stickered NGC coins that sell for a 20-40% discount, then by all means crack them out and send them to PCGS. But, scouring the bourse floor for those same coins isn't going to work because most retailers aren't going to discount those coins 20-40% for you. They will be asking as close to PCGS money as they can get (0-15%)....even if they did buy them for 20-40% discounts. Then it's up to you to try and squeak out that last 10%.
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<< <i>This sounds like an awesome way to make an easy 20%. Buy up nice NGC coins that don't have stickers, get them in PCGS holders and profit. If there are truly are market inefficiencies like this, they should be very quickly eliminated. And if not, maybe you can make up for your losses from selling your previous NGC coins. >>
1. You won't be able to do this consistently by crossing them at grade....you will have to crack them out. And in doing so, need to be 99.9% sure the coin will not get bagged for any reason. 1 BB wipes out several winners.
2. This market "inefficiency" has been around for over 15 years now. It's not going away any time soon.
3. Most of the "easy" winners have already had their holders switched over. PCGS wants the very best NGC coins in their holders (ie A quality coins)....but not necessarily the B coins....and certainly not the C coins.
4. A steady influx of former NGC coins makes its way to PCGS because of this 20-50% leverage. But PCGS also knows that they want this flow to continue. The end result is that the odds are heavily stacked against you.
Let's face it. The biggest source of "new" coins available to PCGS are NGC (and PCGS) coins. And the tougher they are on them the more likely they keep coming back.
5. You'd get better results and profits just sticking to PCGS graded coins and getting them upgraded through their various programs. This also minimizes your loss potential. Getting 1 pt upgrades or + signs is also worth the
same 20-50% or 50-100% gain. If it were that easy though, you wouldn't have seen so many smaller coin dealers and crack out artists close up shop and either leave the business or go to work for a large retailer.
I was at a coin show on Sunday and had a chance to talk to one of the finest graders that came out of the 1987-1990 coin market not to mention that he made millions doing it. That guy bought most of his coins raw, often at auctions and made some of the most amazing scores you have ever seen. He's still only in his mid 40's but has pretty much given up the grading game as he used to play it. The leverage may still be there but the chances of success are much smaller. With most higher powered coins at auction and on the bourse floor now in slabs, you have to compete against the retail public. This wasn't the case so much in 1987-1990 when >90% of the coins on the market were raw. I'm sure this guy won't pass up a clearly undergraded coin that he knows he can crossed or in a higher holder. But he avoids the auctions these days because the stronger prices eat too far into the potential leverage. In short, there is no "easy 20%." That train left the station years ago. The "easy" 5-10% is in owning an auction house and just pushing through product. And even that's not "easy." If you already owned stickered NGC coins that sell for a 20-40% discount, then by all means crack them out and send them to PCGS. But, scouring the bourse floor for those same coins isn't going to work because most retailers aren't going to discount those coins 20-40% for you. They will be asking as close to PCGS money as they can get (0-15%)....even if they did buy them for 20-40% discounts. Then it's up to you to try and squeak out that last 10%. >>
Very good post.
Latin American Collection