NGC 65 (CAC-rejected) to PCGS MS65 CAC

GoldenEyeNumismatics · March 24, 2014 5:08PM

All the Newman coins were sent to CAC. This one got turned down by CAC in the NGC MS65 holder, but received a green sticker in a PCGS MS65 holder.

NGC MS65
PCGS MS65 CAC

Burks · March 24, 2014 5:42PM

That's why I don't buy into the whole "sticker" phenomenom. If it was truly meant so that dealers could buy/sell to each other, coin unseen, as it was described to me......it would have received a sticker both times or none at all. To have it get stickered the second time makes you go "hmmmmm".

Smittys · March 24, 2014 6:55PM

<< That's why I don't buy into the whole "sticker" phenomenom. If it was truly meant so that dealers could buy/sell to each other, coin unseen, as it was described to me......it would have received a sticker both times or none at all. To have it get stickered the second time makes you go "hmmmmm". >>

LanceNewmanOCC · March 24, 2014 7:10PM

.
it will be interesting to see how it turns out near the end of april. i'm gonna say it goes for $100k (just a WAG). i'm sure someone will really like it as a top-pop coinfacts plate coin.

fwiw, the obv die appears to have been sandblasted.
.

oih82w8 · March 24, 2014 7:16PM

I would have bypassed CAC and sent them straight to PCGS.

jhdfla · March 24, 2014 7:23PM

Great coin in either holder. Hey, CAC makes mistakes too... at least it didn't go 66 or 65+ in the crossover

oreville · March 24, 2014 8:00PM

The NGC slab has had a thicker plastic shell and it is sometimes harder to see the luster through it. The PCGS plastic shell is thinner and the coin can be seen more thoroughly in it.

I have also on rare occasions had a coin rejected in a NGC slab but when crossed to PCGS in the same grade then get green stickered by CAC.

Outhaul · March 24, 2014 8:09PM

Like I said before. CAC is simply another marketing plan to grab your money.

First there was TPG. When they took that as far as they could, they began doing stuff like First Strike, and other "special" labels and gimmicks to get even more money from the collector. It will never end as long as there are people who will believe the hype and buy into it. How much of the coin's value is the coin itself vs. the bean that just another opiner slaps on it?

I just don't buy it.

Cheers,

Bob

astrorat · March 24, 2014 8:16PM

No surprise. CAC is a grading opinion made by humans. Sure there are only 3 choices; green, gold, or none. But still a decision has to be made and I bet there are coins that are "borderline" when submitted to CAC that could go either way depending on when they are submitted or the state of mind of the CAC'er at the time.

Burks · March 24, 2014 8:28PM

If they are borderline, why should they get stickered one day and not the other? People make it seem that if they get a green/gold sticker, it's an obvious PQ coin for the grade. If the grade has to hmmm, ummm, errrr, maybe.....I don't know.....about a coin. Is it really THAT much better? A borderline coin shouldn't get a sticker, simple as that.

If it isn't that simple then you have to look at other factors. Who submitted it? What holder is it in? To say it isn't a political game, I think, would be foolish.

Buy the coin, not the slab/sticker/holder/signiture/spit mark/armpit rub/whatever comes next.

RYK · March 24, 2014 8:34PM

<< No surprise. CAC is a grading opinion made by humans. Sure there are only 3 choices; green, gold, or none. But still a decision has to be made and I bet there are coins that are "borderline" when submitted to CAC that could go either way depending on when they are submitted or the state of mind of the CAC'er at the time. >>

Opinions can change over time, under different conditions, moods, depending on how the last 50 coins graded fared, how close or far to lunch time, etc. Ask anyone in the business of rendering opinions, and they will concur. The TPGs and their graders would tell you the same.

All this revelation tells me is that the coin in question is not a lock for a green sticker, perhaps a B-/C+ coin.

PerryHall · March 24, 2014 8:35PM

<< No surprise. CAC is a grading opinion made by humans. Sure there are only 3 choices; green, gold, or none. But still a decision has to be made and I bet there are coins that are "borderline" when submitted to CAC that could go either way depending on when they are submitted or the state of mind of the CAC'er at the time. >>

Yup. CAC is sometimes inconsistent just like the grading services.

Cougar1978 · March 24, 2014 8:41PM

Opinions are a point in time and can be different later on.

I believe one has to really look at the coin carefully to firm up any purchase decision especially on big ticket material. That a coin is stickered is no way an indication one should jump in and buy it.

bidask · March 24, 2014 8:49PM

I've seen that coin in hand. It is fully original.

It went cheap in the Newman sale for around 51k.

Was offered to me at 65k in the pcgs holder but before it was cac.

I was tempted.

Ed62 · March 24, 2014 9:40PM

CAC definitely had a (somewhat justifiable) bias against NGC slabs during its first few years. NGC then applied very conservative grades to the Newman patterns in an attempt to redeem itself. It seemed to work as about 65% of the Newman patterns CACed.

The case described in this thread appears to be an aberration.

BAJJERFAN · March 24, 2014 9:59PM

<< 

<< No surprise. CAC is a grading opinion made by humans. Sure there are only 3 choices; green, gold, or none. But still a decision has to be made and I bet there are coins that are "borderline" when submitted to CAC that could go either way depending on when they are submitted or the state of mind of the CAC'er at the time. >>

Opinions can change over time, under different conditions, moods, depending on how the last 50 coins graded fared, how close or far to lunch time, etc. Ask anyone in the business of rendering opinions, and they will concur. The TPGs and their graders would tell you the same.

All this revelation tells me is that the coin in question is not a lock for a green sticker, perhaps a B-/C+ coin. >>

Of course this would NEVER happen to a collector.

DHeath · March 24, 2014 10:02PM

Perhaps some enterprising soul can launch a 5th party service. With a sufficient number of opinions we might approach an accurate consensus.

tradedollarnut · March 24, 2014 10:04PM

Oreville is right. I can say from first hand knowlege that some coins just look better in a PCGS holder.

BAJJERFAN · March 24, 2014 10:08PM

<< Oreville is right. I can say from first hand knowlege that some coins just look better in a PCGS holder. >>

Agreed, but per JA plastic thickness is not usually a factor in evaluating slabbed coins.

PerryHall · March 24, 2014 10:18PM

<< The NGC slab has had a thicker plastic shell and it is sometimes harder to see the luster through it. The PCGS plastic shell is thinner and the coin can be seen more thoroughly in it. >>

If CAC can't properly evaluate a coin without being influenced by the plastic that it's in, perhaps they should get out of the stickering business.

tradedollarnut · March 24, 2014 10:21PM

<< 

<< Oreville is right. I can say from first hand knowlege that some coins just look better in a PCGS holder. >>

Agreed, but per JA plastic thickness is not usually a factor in evaluating slabbed coins. >>

I agree. The 0.5% of times that it's a factor is certainly 'not usually'!

tradedollarnut · March 24, 2014 10:21PM

<< 

<< The NGC slab has had a thicker plastic shell and it is sometimes harder to see the luster through it. The PCGS plastic shell is thinner and the coin can be seen more thoroughly in it. >>

If CAC can't properly evaluate a coin without being influenced by the plastic that it's in, perhaps they should get out of the stickering business. >>

This is just silly

BryceM · March 24, 2014 10:29PM

Does anyone really think a MLB umpire would call 1000 pitches the same way on 2 different days? Sometimes you look outside and call it day and sometimes you call it night. With only two choices, sometimes it could go either way. People who expect 100% consistency in any subjective assessment are looking at this with wildly unrealistic expectations.

jdimmick · March 24, 2014 10:31PM

This is a little different, because holder was same.

I had bought a 1914-d Lincoln in pc 64rd about a year or two earlier. Guy I bought it from just got it holdered, and told me I ought to send it to CAC, I did , but it did not sticker. Sold it this past sept to a national dealer who not only got it to go up to a PC 64+ rd, but also got it cac stickered, then sold in the heritage sale.

jim

ColonelJessup · March 24, 2014 10:39PM

<< 

<< 

<< The NGC slab has had a thicker plastic shell and it is sometimes harder to see the luster through it. The PCGS plastic shell is thinner and the coin can be seen more thoroughly in it. >>

If CAC can't properly evaluate a coin without being influenced by the plastic that it's in, perhaps they should get out of the stickering business. >>

This is just silly >>

also

derryb · March 24, 2014 10:44PM

maybe CAC thinks more highly of a PCGS grade opinion than it does of an NGC grade opinion.

CuKevin · March 24, 2014 10:50PM

<< maybe CAC thinks more highly of a PCGS grade opinion than it does of an NGC grade opinion. >>

Their opinion is supposed to be regardless of the holder it is in. They are supposed to be providing an opinion on the quality of the coin for the assigned grade. However, they do not advertise themselves as a grading company, only a way of informing the market if they will pay sight unseen for a coin.

CuKevin · March 24, 2014 10:53PM

<< This is a little different, because holder was same.

I had bought a 1914-d Lincoln in pc 64rd about a year or two earlier. Guy I bought it from just got it holdered, and told me I ought to send it to CAC, I did , but it did not sticker. Sold it this past sept to a national dealer who not only got it to go up to a PC 64+ rd, but also got it cac stickered, then sold in the heritage sale.

jim >>

I have had a similar experience where a green stickered XF 45 was resubmitted and came back 55.

Outhaul · March 24, 2014 10:57PM

Again; it's all about marketing and money. Like the grading services, they get their money whether you get the bean or not.

Before TPGs, you had to do your homework and know your stuff. Now, people rely on others and their own skills diminish.

Cheers,

Bob

tradedollarnut · March 24, 2014 11:05PM

Again; it's all about marketing and money. Like the grading services, they get their money whether you get the bean or not.

And here all this time I thought they didn't charge for 'no bean'... thanks for clearing that up.

joebb21 · March 24, 2014 11:06PM

<< Again; it's all about marketing and money. Like the grading services, they get their money whether you get the bean or not.

Before TPGs, you had to do your homework and know your stuff. Now, people rely on others and their own skills diminish.

Cheers,

Bob >>

For the record, I know that when cac was first introduced (and for the first 3 years or so) any "collector" who submitted coins did not have to pay for the unstickered coins.
So if you had submit 1000 coins and none stickered, you did not have to pay anything.

As I am no longer regarded as a collector I don't know if things have changed. If somebody else can please let us know..

AMRC · March 24, 2014 11:08PM

it is quite possible that the coin had PVC on it in the NGC holder and was removed before it was put into the PCGS Holder. Happens all the time.

CAC will not sticker any coin with any sign of PVC. HOWEVER SLIGHT!

RYK · March 24, 2014 11:08PM

<< 

<< Again; it's all about marketing and money. Like the grading services, they get their money whether you get the bean or not.

Before TPGs, you had to do your homework and know your stuff. Now, people rely on others and their own skills diminish.

Cheers,

Bob >>

For the record, I know that when cac was first introduced (and for the first 3 years or so) any "collector" who submitted coins did not have to pay for the unstickered coins.
So if you had submit 1000 coins and none stickered, you did not have to pay anything.

As I am no longer regarded as a collector I don't know if things have changed. If somebody else can please let us know.. >>

Collectors still do not pay for coins that do not sticker.

tradedollarnut · March 24, 2014 11:10PM

<< 

<< 

<< Again; it's all about marketing and money. Like the grading services, they get their money whether you get the bean or not.

Before TPGs, you had to do your homework and know your stuff. Now, people rely on others and their own skills diminish.

Cheers,

Bob >>

For the record, I know that when cac was first introduced (and for the first 3 years or so) any "collector" who submitted coins did not have to pay for the unstickered coins.
So if you had submit 1000 coins and none stickered, you did not have to pay anything.

As I am no longer regarded as a collector I don't know if things have changed. If somebody else can please let us know.. >>

Collectors still do not pay for coins that do not sticker. >>

Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant....

BAJJERFAN · March 24, 2014 11:11PM

<< 

<< 

<< Again; it's all about marketing and money. Like the grading services, they get their money whether you get the bean or not.

Before TPGs, you had to do your homework and know your stuff. Now, people rely on others and their own skills diminish.

Cheers,

Bob >>

For the record, I know that when cac was first introduced (and for the first 3 years or so) any "collector" who submitted coins did not have to pay for the unstickered coins.
So if you had submit 1000 coins and none stickered, you did not have to pay anything.

As I am no longer regarded as a collector I don't know if things have changed. If somebody else can please let us know.. >>

Collectors still do not pay for coins that do not sticker. >>

+1

brg5658 · March 24, 2014 11:13PM

How did I know before even opening this thread that I'd see many posts by TDN -- defending CAC and touting the superiority of how a coin "looks" in a different brand of plastic. The coin is the coin -- this is an issue of consistency, plain and simple.

/eyeroll

tradedollarnut · March 24, 2014 11:19PM

<< How did I know before even opening this thread that I'd see many posts by TDN -- defending CAC and touting the superiority of how a coin "looks" in a different brand of plastic. The coin is the coin -- this is an issue of consistency, plain and simple.

/eyeroll >>

Facts are facts. Deal with it.

Boosibri · March 24, 2014 11:21PM

<< Like I said before. CAC is simply another marketing plan to grab your money.

First there was TPG. When they took that as far as they could, they began doing stuff like First Strike, and other "special" labels and gimmicks to get even more money from the collector. It will never end as long as there are people who will believe the hype and buy into it. How much of the coin's value is the coin itself vs. the bean that just another opiner slaps on it?

I just don't buy it.

Cheers,

Bob >>

Frankly if you cannot see the value in having one of the best numismatists in our generation look at and render an opinion on a coin, with no cost if he does not certify it, a marketing grab for your money, then you are beyond help.

As I have become more active in the hobby, CAC has been indispensable to me, along with a few other key mentors, in accelerating my development as a numismatist. By being able to see what was certified and what was not it brings an acute view to quality which would have taken significantly longer to acquire and at a significantly higher cost.

If you choose to collect widgets I can see how CAC would bring no value to you, your education, or your collection.

CoinRaritiesOnline · March 24, 2014 11:25PM

<< it is quite possible that the coin had PVC on it in the NGC holder and was removed before it was put into the PCGS Holder. Happens all the time. >>

Could be.

291fifth · March 24, 2014 11:26PM

Collectors need to learn to grade, form their own opinions and buy the coin, not the plastic or stickers.

Grading is an opinion.

JCMhouston · March 24, 2014 11:26PM

<< Facts are facts. Deal with it. >>

And opinions are opinions, seems like many folks can't tell the difference though.

brg5658 · March 24, 2014 11:27PM

<< 

<< it is quite possible that the coin had PVC on it in the NGC holder and was removed before it was put into the PCGS Holder. Happens all the time. >>

Could be. >>

You gents are really drawing at straws now. It could be that aliens took it up for a magical cleaning in their state of the art space ship also...

ACop · March 24, 2014 11:28PM

CAC has a publicly defined bias against coins depending on the TPG they are housed in. Otherwise they would evaluate ANACS and ICG coins as well if it were really about the coin. So it is of no surprise that within the 2 TPGs they do evaluate there might also be a bias.

tradedollarnut · March 24, 2014 11:30PM

<< 

<< 

<< it is quite possible that the coin had PVC on it in the NGC holder and was removed before it was put into the PCGS Holder. Happens all the time. >>

Could be. >>

You gents are really drawing at straws now. It could be that aliens took it up for a magical cleaning in their state of the art space ship also...

>>

When you condemn for inconsistency off few examples, you have to make allowances for reality. At least in the real world...

brg5658 · March 24, 2014 11:33PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< it is quite possible that the coin had PVC on it in the NGC holder and was removed before it was put into the PCGS Holder. Happens all the time. >>

Could be. >>

You gents are really drawing at straws now. It could be that aliens took it up for a magical cleaning in their state of the art space ship also...

>>

When you condemn for inconsistency off few examples, you have to make allowances for reality. At least in the real world... >>

Right, and how many dozens of examples would one have to show for you to believe the facts TDN? I have no horse in this race, so I'm not looking at this issue through $$-tinted glasses. You, on the other hand....

tradedollarnut · March 24, 2014 11:37PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< it is quite possible that the coin had PVC on it in the NGC holder and was removed before it was put into the PCGS Holder. Happens all the time. >>

Could be. >>

You gents are really drawing at straws now. It could be that aliens took it up for a magical cleaning in their state of the art space ship also...

>>

When you condemn for inconsistency off few examples, you have to make allowances for reality. At least in the real world... >>

Right, and how many dozens of examples would one have to show for you to believe the facts TDN? I have no horse in this race, so I'm not looking at this issue through $$-tinted glasses. You, on the other hand.... >>

How about more than two or three? I have no monetary stake in CAC though I do like and respect JA. To condemn as inconsistent over a few coins is silly.... what are your real world expectations for consistency? Personally, if they are batting 99% and willing to take mistakes off the market, I find that outstanding.

BryceM · March 24, 2014 11:51PM

It's a good thing threads like this fix all the misunderstandings & foster brotherly love. Otherwise I'd have a hard time seeing their usefulness.

19Lyds · March 24, 2014 11:51PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< it is quite possible that the coin had PVC on it in the NGC holder and was removed before it was put into the PCGS Holder. Happens all the time. >>

Could be. >>

You gents are really drawing at straws now. It could be that aliens took it up for a magical cleaning in their state of the art space ship also...

>>

When you condemn for inconsistency off few examples, you have to make allowances for reality. At least in the real world... >>

Right, and how many dozens of examples would one have to show for you to believe the facts TDN? I have no horse in this race, so I'm not looking at this issue through $$-tinted glasses. You, on the other hand.... >>

How about more than two or three? I have no monetary stake in CAC though I do like and respect JA. To condemn as inconsistent over a few coins is silly.... what are your real world expectations for consistency? Personally, if they are batting 99% and willing to take mistakes off the market, I find that outstanding. >>

So, CAC is definitely going to buy this coin?

tahoe98 · March 24, 2014 11:55PM

...of course we have the "S" word to blame for this....subjectivity..

tradedollarnut · March 24, 2014 11:55PM

So, CAC is definitely going to buy this coin?

Huh?

19Lyds · March 24, 2014 11:58PM

<< So, CAC is definitely going to buy this coin?

Huh? >>

You said: " Personally, if they are batting 99% and willing to take mistakes off the market, I find that outstanding."

So will they be buying the coin?

Or was the non-sticker for the NGC Slab the "mistake"?

NGC 65 (CAC-rejected) to PCGS MS65 CAC

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