Am I hypercritical?

DocBubbles · March 18, 2014 12:09PM

A couple of complaints about MS-70 coin quality. Am I a complainer?

two 2007-W, Burnished, First Strike, MS-70 ASE. I returned the first one because it had something spattered on it before encapsulation! Like the grader sneezed before sealing it up. That was an MS-70, the cert ended in 399. The company sent me another because I asked for an exchange. This I received yesterday.

I have taken to inspecting my coins now with a digital microscope because I noticed a gold AE with a bad scratch too late to return, so I have that pseudo MS-70 to pass off on someone else. Yes, I know that PCGS will exchange it because it is not MS-70 but the process seems to be rather costly. At any rate, that experience made me wary.

So I noticed right away that there were slight scratches on the top raised edge in two places (photo attached). One spot had been peeled back, a little bit of shard hanging there like it was sliced with a sharp knife (seen with my microscope). But both areas were visible as a serrated portion.

[URL=http://s67.photobucket.com/user/ccronan1ccronan/media/2007-W-FS-Burn-SAE-11490403-S_zpscb01e41d.jpg.html]

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Interestingly, the cert number was 403, I wonder if that was the same grader?

So am I too critical? What does MS-70 really mean? Nothing is ever perfect. The spattering, yes, that was not acceptable. But this serration or abrasion is tiny but visible. The curled shard is visible only under magnification.

So how perfect is MS-70? What is acceptable?

commoncents05 · March 18, 2014 12:18PM

Both of the things you pointed out are on the plastic gasket holding the coin, not on the coin itself. But even if it was on the coin, yes, you are too critical.

-Paul

tradedollarnut · March 18, 2014 12:20PM

Why not buy a nice 69 and save tons of money?

DocBubbles · March 18, 2014 12:36PM

Paul,

Under magnification those marks are on the coin not the plastic. But something like this is acceptable for MS-70? What is permitted, really.

Chuck

Sonorandesertrat · March 18, 2014 12:37PM

<< Why not buy a nice 69 and save tons of money? >>

Never let logic interfere with marketing.

MsMorrisine · March 18, 2014 12:41PM

I recognize you disagree but I also think that is the plastic gasket.

lcoopie · March 18, 2014 12:44PM

yes

DocBubbles · March 18, 2014 12:47PM

Sounds like lots of votes for the gasket. Is there any link that describes the encapsulation process? What does this gasket look like?

Chuck

Bochiman · March 18, 2014 12:48PM

Yes, you are.

Here's the thing, you need to understand what a graded 70 coin really is. There is the theoretical 70 (perfect, as struck) and then there is the real 70. Particularly on SAEs.
Once you understand it, you will understand if it is worth the premium (ie...registry points and a slightly higher price) or if, as TDN says, you should just get the 69 instead.

As far as using a digital microscope......again, learn what a grading opinion is and what they use to grade with. If you use a microscope, then, yes, you will find issues with almost any coin.

CoinRaritiesOnline · March 18, 2014 12:49PM

I think if you examine coins with a microscope like this you will discover that none of them are actually perfect, and you will drive yourself crazy in the process.

So yes, I believe you are hypercritical.

BAJJERFAN · March 18, 2014 1:01PM

If the coin not pictured was cert # 11490399, it is quite likely that both coins were seen by the same grader. Did you ask if the sniffer sniffs sneezes and to have it checked?

SAM5969 · March 18, 2014 1:04PM

I think the OP is correct .. I think TPG shouldn't use the MS70 grade if there is no perfect coin.. John Agre said it best - there is no perfect coin - therefore there is no MS70 grade... isn't that what the 69 by definition is? Why not use 69 as the max grade ... Cap it at 69 and call it a day

And TDN - maybe he collects 70's - he isn't alone whether it is marketing or not some modern collectors pursue these. Why don't you collect sliders and save yourself a ton of dough?

It's the same marketing CAC uses, and the same marketing PCGS used to jump start the recon program (which is effectively watering down the product and admitting PCGS made enough mistaken opinions during the initial grading process (and don't tell me it's all gradeflation .. BS -- many coins sent through recon have successfully ugraded that were housed in 3 prong/fade holders) .. The collector gets to send his coin in and pay for PCGS failure to grade correctly the first time ... Or is it more accurate to say they have a different OPINION this time since that is really all we buy .. PCGS=Public company with a board of directors seeking corporate profits .. It is a conflict of interest to charge commissions on upgrades when PCGS failed to grade it right the first time. Bologna on that and it leads to many collectors feeling the product is watered down ...

The OP is not pursuing classic coins and not interested in the same material as the tight circle of the same 10 or 20 people here in the good ole boys club who all band together and speak with the forked same tongue

Silveraholic · March 18, 2014 1:09PM

<< I think if you examine coins with a microscope like this you will discover that none of them are actually perfect, and you will drive yourself crazy in the process.

So yes, I believe you are hypercritical. >>

Which is exactly why MS70 should've remained a hypothetical grade and MS69 should be the highest grade attainable. There is no such thing as a flawless coin.

MsMorrisine · March 18, 2014 1:12PM

MsMorrisine · March 18, 2014 1:13PM

It's common to have the inside edge to be ragged on the gasket.

I notice on the one I photo'd that only one edge was ragged.... flip it over and the inside edge on that now top portion was fine.

tradedollarnut · March 18, 2014 1:16PM

And TDN - maybe he collects 70's - he isn't alone whether it is marketing or not some modern collectors pursue these. Why don't you collect sliders and save yourself a ton of dough?

With all due respect, I don't examine my coins with a microscope. If one does so, one is going to find flaws. If flaws bothers one, then one may as well collect 69s which also have flaws and save a whole lot of money. In either case, one is going to be dissatisfied with the coin, but in one case one has more money in the bank.

roadrunner · March 18, 2014 1:27PM

I've only used a 5X glass on ASE's and have never found a flawless MS70 yet. While there are no debt low end, solid, and high end MS70's, it's just another number. As far as I'm concerned MS71 is a perfect coin because
so far that # has not been given out.

No, you are not overly critical. If you can't find a flaw with 5 power after 5 minutes of looking. That's about as flawless as you''re ever going to get.....well, at least looking through a plastic slab. Who knows what lurks in those
areas you cannot see. An near flawless today doesn't mean spots or other issues can't show up on the coin down the road.

MGLICKER · March 18, 2014 1:40PM

My understanding is that an MS70 coin shows no imperfection at 10X magnification. Certainly a microscope provides much higher magnification which is great for examining larvae but lousy for coin grading.

CoinJunkie · March 18, 2014 2:02PM

No, you are not necessarily hypercritical. Coins get over-graded at every level, and it's probably a lot more
prevalent with coins that get graded in bulk, not to mention a lot more irritating on coins that are supposed
to be "flawless".

DocBubbles · March 18, 2014 2:06PM

Thanks people. I have to say the imperfections I have seen with no microscope, and much better with one. I am curious about this coin now that several of you have said the imperfection I have seen is from the "gasket". I do not see a gasket, unless it is in the shape of a clear O-ring around the edge of the coin because it seems to be perfectly placed in the capsule. But I will not be convinced that curled shard is plastic. Also the serrations are on top of the raised coin edge.

I suppose I will let it go with this very educational discussion (really, not a sarcastic comment). In my web searching since this started, it appears that there is a second "checker" to confirm the grade. However, that spattered coin had the spatter across the face of the coin, not on the capsule. That does not make sense to me. Here it is, I have it no more.
[URL=http://s67.photobucket.com/user/ccronan1ccronan/media/Picofreturned2007-WBurnished_zps54fef1e1.jpg.html]

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DocBubbles · March 18, 2014 2:10PM

And that was visible without magnification.

MGLICKER · March 18, 2014 2:13PM

<< And that was visible without magnification. >>

I have 3 or 4 spotters myself in 70 holders. I try to stay away from them if the premium is significant.

roadrunner · March 18, 2014 2:15PM

<< My understanding is that an MS70 coin shows no imperfection at 10X magnification. Certainly a microscope provides much higher magnification which is great for examining larvae but lousy for coin grading. >>

So you're suggesting that every ASE that comes out of bulk MS70 submission gets a 10X look? I don't know about that. If they graded them via 10X they'd find something negative on every one of them within 5-10 seconds

MGLICKER · March 18, 2014 2:27PM

<< 

<< My understanding is that an MS70 coin shows no imperfection at 10X magnification. Certainly a microscope provides much higher magnification which is great for examining larvae but lousy for coin grading. >>

So you're suggesting that every ASE that comes out of bulk MS70 submission gets a 10X look? I don't know about that. If they graded them via 10X they'd find something negative on every one of them within 5-10 seconds >>

When mint state and proof 70 graded coins were the rage a decade ago, often selling for 10x the 69 equivalent, my understanding was the 10x threshold. Criteria may have changed, but that seemed to be the retort to those that spoke of "perfect" coins.

Don't see a loupe in this fellows hand, though the licorice is nearby.

MsMorrisine · March 18, 2014 2:56PM

Spots are a different story and silver spotting does occur after grading and affects the grade.

The gasket shown will fit first spouse gold. Tha ASE gasket has the same outer diameter but larger inner diameter. The hard plastic slab is universal for most mint struck coins. The way they fit different sized coins inside is with different gaskets.

The ragged edge on the inside of the gasket will lay over the rim. You said it yourself, the ragged bit of plastic on the gasket will lay on the coin's rim. and yes, the o-ring gasket is perfectly placed in the hard slab because the slab would not close and seal otherwise.

SoCalBigMark · March 18, 2014 3:07PM

Does the OP have a eBay account and if so what is the ID?

MsMorrisine · March 18, 2014 3:17PM

I'll post more images showing a cracked open slab and different sized gaskets tomorrow.

Bochiman · March 18, 2014 3:31PM

<< And that was visible without magnification. >>

And, now you should do forum searches on "milk spots" on the SAEs....

Cougar1978 · March 18, 2014 8:49PM

Even if the coin is nice it can be tough to get all the money on 70 coins when selling. There is always the chance they can develop problems after grading due to exposure to the atmosphere. I would rather fill the hole with a nice 69 and pay less.

bolivarshagnasty · March 18, 2014 9:48PM

Chasing perfection will be a losing proposition. By a nice 69 and let someone else lose their shirt in the ASE registry game. JMHO

DeepCoin · March 18, 2014 10:51PM

Instead of chasing the elusive 70, why not use that extreme focus and delve into Bust Halves and Overton varieties? You still get the ability to look at close detail, seeking the difference between 23 potential candidates for some dates and it eliminates the obsession with finding marks on a 70. There is no perfect coin and moderns are quite enticing as the quality of manufacture is so very high. I am not bashing moderns, but rather saying that examining coins in such minute detail can provide satisfaction in many different ways, Bust Halves are just one other option for your zeal.

Outhaul · March 18, 2014 11:09PM

I simply don't believe there is a coin that is truly MS-70 which is why I will never spend the ridiculous amount of money on one.

Just my eversohumble opinion.

Cheers,

Bob

pmac · March 18, 2014 11:42PM

<< 

<< Why not buy a nice 69 and save tons of money? >>

Never let logic interfere with marketing.

>>

I have many 69s that seem to have no problems. Sometimes I wonder how they are graded.

ricko · March 18, 2014 11:45PM

The answer to the OP's question is yes.... however, if the OP wishes to examine coins under a microscope, then that is his option. It will likely be a very frustrating hobby for him. I have some 70's and they look just fine without a microscope. I will not ruin the illusion. Cheers, RickO

MsMorrisine · March 19, 2014 2:07AM

they do fit perfectly inside.

The leaner gasket is a first spouse. Those below are a $5 gold eagle, a $25 gold eagle and a $50 gold eagle.

The gasket system hold the coins securely and allows for 1 size hard plastic slab to hold multiple sizes of coins.

phnatacc · March 19, 2014 2:26AM

In a word, yes. But I am willing to caveat the response.

If you are buying specifically for a modern coin registry set, the only thing that matters is the number grade on the slab – the coin is completely secondary. If, however, you are building for a personal pursuit of "perfect" coins then a) get ready to tick off a lot of dealers having to handle your returns; b) learn to live without perfection so you don't alienate the known universe of coin dealers or; c) give it up.

TomB · March 19, 2014 2:55AM

The grade of 70 does not mean perfect; it simply means that it meets or exceeds the proprietary standards of the TPG.

19Lyds · March 19, 2014 3:16AM

<< No, you are not overly critical. If you can't find a flaw with 5 power after 5 minutes of looking. That's about as flawless as you're ever going to get.....well, at least looking through a plastic slab. Who knows what lurks in those
areas you cannot see. An near flawless today doesn't mean spots or other issues can't show up on the coin down the road. >>

Isn't the rule: 5x Loupe + 5 Seconds per coin?

MsMorrisine · March 19, 2014 3:22AM

go into "profile" and turn on your private messages

I'll send you a cracked slab and gasket to play with if you PM your address.

veryfine · March 19, 2014 4:21AM

Nothing is perfect, but MS69 is perfect enough………for me.

TwoSides2aCoin · March 19, 2014 4:33AM

Being analytical helps me to be less cynical and that's not necessarily in line with being critical. It's a matter of one's perspective. Learn, yearn, earn.

BryceM · March 19, 2014 4:43AM

Many of the responses here are from people who have gone through a similar process and become frustrated trying to attain the unattainable. Apart from "winning" the registry game, most of use can't see any useful reason to pay more for coins which are virtually indistinguishable from coins in 69 holders. No other grade will leave you feeling empty as often as MS70. Magnify them enough, and even superb coins look like beat-up wrecks. Since there are no perfect coins, why not spend less and get a 69 you can be happy with?

All of that said, coins often "turn" in the holder - sometimes months or years after grading. The grading process isn't 100% accurate and this is, IMO, especially true of moderns which are often graded in enormous bulk submission lots.

pennyannie · March 19, 2014 4:43AM

Am I hypercritical? Yes because you expect to get profection for what you paid for. It does not work that way.

MGLICKER · March 19, 2014 4:52AM

<< No other grade will leave you feeling empty as often as MS70 >>

Lots of wallets have been left empty as well.

DocBubbles · March 23, 2014 5:08AM

Bit a few days but I am now able to respond. Thank you all for the comments. MsMorrisine sent me a gasket and I see that it does cover the edge, and that plastic is likely to cause the "defects" I have seen. I will keep that coin. I have collected quite a number of MS-70's and reluctant to switch in the series I am continuing to add. If I go to any new series I very likely will follow the lead of most respondents, MS-69.

You wondered why I used a microscope. This thread is too long already, but I am going to start a new one: "Am I hypercritical2? I will display the original problem that has made me inspect so closely.

Thanks.

Am I hypercritical?

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