If I were a scientist writing a paper, I would want a few metrics to gauge "best". Auction results would be one. Market share, possibly? Percentage of coins valued over a certain price that reside in a particular holder?
<< <i>If I were a scientist writing a paper, I would want a few metrics to gauge "best". Auction results would be one. Market share, possibly? Percentage of coins valued over a certain price that reside in a particular holder?
Just brainstorming.... >>
I just noticed that the top "auction dog" (the Jack Lee / MS68 specimen) on those 1885-CC Morgans now resides in a PCGS MS68+ holder.
One gauge of market share is to go to Ebay and search US Coins (NGC leads in World Coins by a wide margin). Then search PCGS, then NGC, then ICG, then ANACS
take the totals, divide and I get something like: (these numbers fluctuate every day and minute to minute)
PCGS 50% NGC 45% rest 5%
raw vs graded runs about 5:1 to 4:1 depending on the day and time.
The fact that PCGS graded coins outnumber NGC is puzzling as NGC has graded slightly more coins over the years. Do NGC coins get cracked out at a higher rate?
CLCT will be presenting at an investor conference this Thursday afternoon. I am sure they will cover stuff like this as they have in the past if you are interested. The slides and audio will be available over the internet and most likely archived on the collectors.com website for a few month time period.
This is a good move for NGC. I had not been over there in a while, but I noticed PCGS coins get no points in their sets (has this always been that way)
As far as "who is best". You can make either one based on how you define "best".
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
<< <i>This is a good move for NGC. I had not been over there in a while, but I noticed PCGS coins get no points in their sets (has this always been that way)
As far as "who is best". You can make either one based on how you define "best". >>
NGC has a button you can push so that your NGC set is ranked only as to NGC graded coins. I don't use that feature, but the ability is there for those folks who want their sets to compete on the basis of NGC graded coins only. The fact that the NGC only feature is already there is another reason why yesterday's news came as a surprise.
<< <i>Good news for PCGS. Bad news for NGC IMO. As the #2 grading agency I don't think they command exclusivity like the #1 does. They should have come up with a weight for PCGS coins that dropped them by 10% or something like that. The registry nuts, deciding on which place they wanted their sets for competition, would have paid for the crosses. Now it adds difficulty and decreases "set liquidity" if you will.
>>
My own thoughts on this issue are somewhat vitriolic, and as such, I will show restraint.
"Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end."
I can see their point and I'm sure some collectors will prefer coins exclusively in NGC holders. From my point of view, they have reduced the collector base who will participate in registry sets.
I recently started a gold type set and quickly dismissed a preference for holders and simply purchased based on the coin. None of the coins will be registered and it does not have an impact on my personal collection.
I do have a few PCGS registry sets for US coins and it is a pain when you see a coin that fits the set but is not in the right holder. I'm too far along in those to change but made a mental note not to get caught in the game again.
For those that have turned this thread into what company is better, what would it serve the hobby to have NGC just go away or disappear? What does it say about collectors that act as if it has? Isn't he variety of coins/ series, dealers, B+Ms, auction companies, cert companies, sticker companies, show locations the spice of life?
Imagine there a hobby where one accepted series/ grade was only in one deemed best holder bought from one anointed dealer at one certain location and could only be taken seriously in one registry.......it isn't hard to do....
I participate in this hobby to open my mind not close it.
<< <i>I can see their point and I'm sure some collectors will prefer coins exclusively in NGC holders. From my point of view, they have reduced the collector base who will participate in registry sets.
I recently started a gold type set and quickly dismissed a preference for holders and simply purchased based on the coin. None of the coins will be registered and it does not have an impact on my personal collection.
I do have a few PCGS registry sets for US coins and it is a pain when you see a coin that fits the set but is not in the right holder. I'm too far along in those to change but made a mental note not to get caught in the game again. >>
I have some like that on the PCGS registry too. I'm not going to pay to cross a coin over just to add it to a registry, but I guess it could factor into my purchasing decisions going forward.
Seems to me that while the two big TPG companies are angling to squeeze out the other, someone is going to jump in and fill the void.
<< <i> Great evidence, but he wants documentation. Where are your sources? >>
Look at the pop reports and determine the % of coins making each grade out of total coins submitted, especially in the MS/PF63-70 levels. Also look at the ratio of 63 to 64 and 64 to 65 and 66 to 65 coins. It will become very clear what the "documentation" is.
A good place to start? Try MS65 type coins like bust halves, seated half dimes through dollars, trade dollars, bust dimes-quarters-dollars, etc. Another place to look: The Dick Osburn collection sold back at the summer 2011 ANA was a remarkable comparison. Out of approx 150+ mostly unc seated halves split at about 55% NGC and 45% PCGS the stickering rate was: 38% PCGS, 3% NGC. Yup...those are "about equal." And that set was put together by a seated coin expert. For any dealer or advanced collector who has been in this coin market for 25 years or longer I don't think you can find a single person that would say NGC and PCGS are equals when it comes to overall US market grading standards and the prices the coins bring. I certainly don't know of any such dealer. When I first started comparing the TPG's they were roughly similar in 1987-1988 but there were opportunities to arbitrage either against the other, especially on deeply toned vs. brilliant coins. My own collecting and buying habits over 20 years was 80% NGC coins and 20% PCGS. My own experiences in choice/gem pre-1930 US coinage are overweight in how NGC coins have performed.
Which grading service has slabbed the most coins?
That's also a function of which grading service gives the best grades and therefore the most profit to the submitter. During the 1996-2008 market this choice was a slam dunk for almost any decent higher end or liner coin.
<< <i>don't care about registry, I buy what I like regardless of holder >>
True enough for you. But, the REGISTRIES and pops have transformed rare coin prices the past 20 years probably more than any one thing. The price of the coin you are buying because you like it is usually priced on how it stands in a REGISTRY and the holder/grade/label it has been assigned.....or if a REG doesn't exist for that, at least by a census of surviving specimens.
CLCT will be presenting at an investor conference this Thursday afternoon. I am sure they will cover stuff like this as they have in the past if you are interested. The slides and audio will be available over the internet and most likely archived on the collectors.com website for a few month time period.
Just finished the investor conference. You can listen for yourself and look at the slides CU Investor Conference
CEO said they have over 50% of the market share in coins and over 90% in cards. Said NGC primarily gets their volume from Modern coins. International sales account for 4% of CU revenue now. CU fly's out US graders to China, though China does have Modern graders on site. NGC hired local contractors in China.
The most important statement by the CEO was that CU would cover the dividend and then some with earnings within 18 months.
Comments
Just brainstorming....
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>If I were a scientist writing a paper, I would want a few metrics to gauge "best". Auction results would be one. Market share, possibly? Percentage of coins valued over a certain price that reside in a particular holder?
Just brainstorming.... >>
I just noticed that the top "auction dog" (the Jack Lee / MS68 specimen) on those 1885-CC Morgans now resides in a PCGS MS68+ holder.
One gauge of market share is to go to Ebay and search US Coins (NGC leads in World Coins by a wide margin). Then search PCGS, then NGC, then ICG, then ANACS
take the totals, divide and I get something like: (these numbers fluctuate every day and minute to minute)
PCGS 50%
NGC 45%
rest 5%
raw vs graded runs about 5:1 to 4:1 depending on the day and time.
The fact that PCGS graded coins outnumber NGC is puzzling as NGC has graded slightly more coins over the years. Do NGC coins get cracked out at a higher rate?
CLCT will be presenting at an investor conference this Thursday afternoon. I am sure they will cover stuff like this as they have in the past if you are interested. The slides and audio will be available over the internet and most likely archived on the collectors.com website for a few month time period.
As far as "who is best". You can make either one based on how you define "best".
<< <i>This is a good move for NGC. I had not been over there in a while, but I noticed PCGS coins get no points in their sets (has this always been that way)
As far as "who is best". You can make either one based on how you define "best". >>
NGC has a button you can push so that your NGC set is ranked only as to NGC graded coins. I don't use that feature, but the ability is there for those folks who want their sets to compete on the basis of NGC graded coins only. The fact that the NGC only feature is already there is another reason why yesterday's news came as a surprise.
Indian Head $10 Gold Set Album
<< <i>This is welcomed news. >>
I agree.
<< <i>Good news for PCGS. Bad news for NGC IMO. As the #2 grading agency I don't think they command exclusivity like the #1 does. They should have come up with a weight for PCGS coins that dropped them by 10% or something like that. The registry nuts, deciding on which place they wanted their sets for competition, would have paid for the crosses. Now it adds difficulty and decreases "set liquidity" if you will.
>>
My own thoughts on this issue are somewhat vitriolic, and as such, I will show restraint.
Indian Head $10 Gold Set Album
I recently started a gold type set and quickly dismissed a preference for holders and simply purchased based on the coin. None of the coins will be registered and it does not have an impact on my personal collection.
I do have a few PCGS registry sets for US coins and it is a pain when you see a coin that fits the set but is not in the right holder. I'm too far along in those to change but made a mental note not to get caught in the game again.
Imagine there a hobby where one accepted series/ grade was only in one deemed best holder bought from one anointed dealer at one certain location and could only be taken seriously in one registry.......it isn't hard to do....
I participate in this hobby to open my mind not close it.
<< <i>I can see their point and I'm sure some collectors will prefer coins exclusively in NGC holders. From my point of view, they have reduced the collector base who will participate in registry sets.
I recently started a gold type set and quickly dismissed a preference for holders and simply purchased based on the coin. None of the coins will be registered and it does not have an impact on my personal collection.
I do have a few PCGS registry sets for US coins and it is a pain when you see a coin that fits the set but is not in the right holder. I'm too far along in those to change but made a mental note not to get caught in the game again. >>
I have some like that on the PCGS registry too. I'm not going to pay to cross a coin over just to add it to a registry, but I guess it could factor into my purchasing decisions going forward.
Seems to me that while the two big TPG companies are angling to squeeze out the other, someone is going to jump in and fill the void.
Indian Head $10 Gold Set Album
<< <i> Great evidence, but he wants documentation. Where are your sources? >>
Look at the pop reports and determine the % of coins making each grade out of total coins submitted, especially in the MS/PF63-70 levels. Also look at the ratio of 63 to 64 and 64 to 65 and 66 to 65 coins.
It will become very clear what the "documentation" is.
A good place to start? Try MS65 type coins like bust halves, seated half dimes through dollars, trade dollars, bust dimes-quarters-dollars, etc. Another place to look: The Dick Osburn collection sold
back at the summer 2011 ANA was a remarkable comparison. Out of approx 150+ mostly unc seated halves split at about 55% NGC and 45% PCGS the stickering rate was: 38% PCGS, 3% NGC.
Yup...those are "about equal." And that set was put together by a seated coin expert. For any dealer or advanced collector who has been in this coin market for 25 years or longer I don't think you can
find a single person that would say NGC and PCGS are equals when it comes to overall US market grading standards and the prices the coins bring. I certainly don't know of any such dealer. When I first started
comparing the TPG's they were roughly similar in 1987-1988 but there were opportunities to arbitrage either against the other, especially on deeply toned vs. brilliant coins. My own collecting and buying habits over
20 years was 80% NGC coins and 20% PCGS. My own experiences in choice/gem pre-1930 US coinage are overweight in how NGC coins have performed.
Which grading service has slabbed the most coins?
That's also a function of which grading service gives the best grades and therefore the most profit to the submitter. During the 1996-2008 market this choice was a slam dunk for almost any decent higher end or liner coin.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>don't care about registry, I buy what I like regardless of holder >>
True enough for you. But, the REGISTRIES and pops have transformed rare coin prices the past 20 years probably more than any one thing. The price of the coin you are buying because you like it is usually priced
on how it stands in a REGISTRY and the holder/grade/label it has been assigned.....or if a REG doesn't exist for that, at least by a census of surviving specimens.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Just finished the investor conference. You can listen for yourself and look at the slides
CU Investor Conference
CEO said they have over 50% of the market share in coins and over 90% in cards. Said NGC primarily gets their volume from Modern coins. International sales account for 4% of CU revenue now. CU fly's out US graders to China, though China does have Modern graders on site. NGC hired local contractors in China.
The most important statement by the CEO was that CU would cover the dividend and then some with earnings within 18 months.