Should sellers disclose knowledge of large coin hoards?

MGLICKER · January 2, 2014 10:52AM

Assuming that the size could be market changing, is it ethically incumbent upon dealers/auction houses to alert buyers and bidders about lots that could drop substantially in value due to a large influx of similar coins?

Unknown · January 2, 2014 10:53AM

This content has been removed.

jmcu12 · January 2, 2014 10:56AM

Ditto what FTB said.

JRocco · January 2, 2014 10:58AM

Say you found a roll of uncirculated 58 DDO Lincolns
If you were the seller, would you?

Unknown · January 2, 2014 10:59AM

This content has been removed.

MGLICKER · January 2, 2014 11:01AM

<< Say you found a roll of uncirculated 58 DDO Lincolns
If you were the seller, would you? >>

Yes.

amwldcoin · January 2, 2014 11:02AM

If I found a Gem roll of any key date coin you can bet the farm they will come out 1 at a time! Protects me as well as those who already own 1!

mrpotatoheadd · January 2, 2014 11:03AM

<< Assuming that the size could be market changing, is it ethically incumbent upon dealers/auction houses to alert buyers and bidders about lots that could drop substantially in value due to a large influx of similar coins? >>

I notice you left collectors out of any potential ethical compromise for non-disclosure there. Any particular reason why?

MsMorrisine · January 2, 2014 11:04AM

Test me with a roll of unc 16D

Bochiman · January 2, 2014 11:06AM

I believe individuals and businesses are a bit different.
An individual - would be nice, but they are limited in their promotion and sales compared to what one individual can do.
From a business standpoint - ethically, yes. Legally, no. However, if they knowingly promoted the items with the previous known pops while they knew it was exploding, then I would definitely question if I wanted to do business with them or not, as I would not find them trustworthy.

Patches · January 2, 2014 11:07AM

<< 

<< Assuming that the size could be market changing, is it ethically incumbent upon dealers/auction houses to alert buyers and bidders about lots that could drop substantially in value due to a large influx of similar coins? >>

I notice you left collectors out of any potential ethical compromise for non-disclosure there. Any particular reason why? >>

I have to agree with this question because I think a collector is more likely to hoard a particular date then a dealer or auction house.

MGLICKER · January 2, 2014 11:08AM

<< 

<< Assuming that the size could be market changing, is it ethically incumbent upon dealers/auction houses to alert buyers and bidders about lots that could drop substantially in value due to a large influx of similar coins? >>

I notice you left collectors out of any potential ethical compromise for non-disclosure there. Any particular reason why? >>

No particular reason. We can add that to the discussion.

Patches · January 2, 2014 11:08AM

Was the Little Orphan Annie dime hoard dump advertised in advance of the first sale?

SeattleSlammer · January 2, 2014 11:09AM

H*ll no!

SeattleSlammer · January 2, 2014 11:10AM

H*ll yes!

...I really can't decide.

mrpotatoheadd · January 2, 2014 11:11AM

<< No particular reason. We can add that to the discussion. >>

Fair enough. The post immediately above yours is a scenario that came to mind, prompting my original inquiry. How many collectors hoard a particular issue because they don't think there's any benefit in doing so?

Unknown · January 2, 2014 11:16AM

This content has been removed.

AngryTurtle · January 2, 2014 11:19AM

I was glancing at a old Stacks Numismatic Sun today where they had an ad for 3 legged buffaloes from a hoard. They prominently disclosed the hoard in their sales material.

ebaybuyer · January 2, 2014 11:22AM

the term "large" would be relative to the coin being hoarded. for instance, it took what 600 1844 dimes being dumped on the market to affect the value ? and that hoard could have been marketed more effectively. people (i believe) tend to harbor this belief that great hoards exist of any particular coin, the thing you must realize is the time and effort it takes to actually accumulate the coin in question. say for instance, someone wanted to hoard 1856-s dimes, with a mintage of 70K i believe, which is just under what that of the 1844 i don't know if a person could accumulate 600 pieces in a lifetime. they aren't out there. two maybe three pieces on ebay at any given time and they are the same three coins being recycled. spend five years trying to hoard anything that isn't available by the handful on ebay and you will see what im referring to, you cant hoard what isn't for sale. you would have to pay 10x the value to hoard a coin like that just to build the hoard, effectively raising the value artificially in order to build the hoard to begin with. all im saying is, if a coin is truly scarce, its not available to be hoarded, and thus there isn't much chance of a huge hoard

derryb · January 2, 2014 11:32AM

nope, no obligation. It's up to the buyer to do his own homework.

joebb21 · January 2, 2014 11:32AM

I Remember reading a story in David Lawrence's book where he talked about a hoard of 93-s dollars that came out. His lesson was that the coin was still a great rarity and they all got absorbed very quickly into the market.

On the other hand, I remember when a hoard of 4 rolls of 09-s vdb lincolns made their way onto the market (maybe 2 years ago?). The dealer who had the hoard slowly placed an ms66rd here- and one there, and then a 65rd here and another there.... for over a year he was slowly dispersing them. In the 09-s vdb case though- the prices have come down significantly.

SmEagle1795 · January 2, 2014 11:58AM

I think information should disseminate universally rather than be held within dealer circles. Often times, dealers will be aware of a hoard and leave collectors to fend for themselves. This has happened recently in two specific types of ancient coins and I've made specific mention of the dealers who tried to sell me early examples from the hoard for pre-hoard money and have now 100% stopped doing business with them after buying significantly from them for several years. I became suspicious when I saw a second coin come up in two years which normally would come up once a decade so I held off buying it... which was a wise decision as another 20 have come up in the following months, cutting the price in half.

Unknown · January 2, 2014 1:34PM

This content has been removed.

rkp · January 2, 2014 1:52PM

Below is the link to the story joebb21 references:

http://blog.davidlawrence.com/index.php/1893-s-dollar-hoard/

earlycoins · January 2, 2014 6:04PM

An interesting example of how a hoard was handled, and how perceived and real value was affected, would be the 57-S double eagles. A coin once difficult to find in nice MS can now be had overnight.

EC

mdwoods · January 2, 2014 7:03PM

<< Below is the link to the story joebb21 references:

http://blog.davidlawrence.com/index.php/1893-s-dollar-hoard/ >>

That was an interesting read. Thanks for the link.

ricko · January 2, 2014 11:53PM

There is no responsibility..either legally or ethically, to inform the market of such things. It is business, and the owner of such property is in control of said property. In no way is such an individual required to potentially destroy his potential profit for the sake of an as yet unknown market. Any other assumption is flawed. And yes, I am trained and certified in ethics, and was the ethics officer for my former company. Just as a business, who makes a breakthrough on a product that will make the former products less desirable or even obsolete, is not required to inform the market prior to it's release. Cheers, RickO

johnny9434 · January 3, 2014 12:47AM

<< Ditto what FTB said. >>

ill second that one as well.

Tomthecoinguy · January 3, 2014 5:32AM

<< 

<< Below is the link to the story joebb21 references:

http://blog.davidlawrence.com/index.php/1893-s-dollar-hoard/ >>

That was an interesting read. Thanks for the link. >>

I'll second that. I see the whole book is posed on the website. I am going to read the rest of the book too. I just read the intro, and can hardly wait to get started on the rest of it.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 3, 2014 5:37AM

Should ice fishermen tell where the good ice holes are ?

Billet7 · January 3, 2014 5:43AM

Dispersing them all at once, or informing everyone all at once that they exist would be doing a HUGE disservice to the owner AND the people who already own an example. The population reports will reflect the existence of these coins, the best course of action is to slowly let them enter the market. If you want to talk about the moral or ethical thing to do, I believe this is the best way to proceed, by NOT announcing it out-loud. The demand is there (if it is in fact a Key date) and the market will absorb it, perhaps a price lag for a few years, it will rebound and make up for the lag. The publicity of a whole roll being discovered (it's happened many times) creates the "Mob Mentality" that all of a sudden these coins are worthless, which is untrue, but still damaging.

ctf_error_coins · January 3, 2014 5:56AM

<< Dispersing them all at once, or informing everyone all at once that they exist would be doing a HUGE disservice to the owner AND the people who already own an example. The population reports will reflect the existence of these coins, the best course of action is to slowly let them enter the market. If you want to talk about the moral or ethical thing to do, I believe this is the best way to proceed, by NOT announcing it out-loud. The demand is there (if it is in fact a Key date) and the market will absorb it, perhaps a price lag for a few years, it will rebound and make up for the lag. The publicity of a whole roll being discovered (it's happened many times) creates the "Mob Mentality" that all of a sudden these coins are worthless, which is untrue, but still damaging. >>

Very Wise Advise

ColonelJessup · January 3, 2014 7:26AM

"Don't call me Shirley." - Leslie Neilsen, Airplane - 1980

keyman64 · January 3, 2014 7:41AM

I will never disclose my hoard of 64 key date Mercs in VF or better when I start selling them 20+ years. The hoard will likely be larger by then anyway.

mrpotatoheadd · January 3, 2014 7:45AM

<< I think information should disseminate universally rather than be held within dealer circles. Often times, dealers will be aware of a hoard and leave collectors to fend for themselves. >>

I'd be willing to bet there are a substantial number of advanced collectors who know more about the availability of the coins they specialize in than all but a handful of dealers. Ethically, should they be obligated to educate others (dealers or collectors) about the scarcity of any coins they decide to sell?

rkp · January 3, 2014 9:31AM

<< 

<< 

<< Below is the link to the story joebb21 references:

http://blog.davidlawrence.com/index.php/1893-s-dollar-hoard/ >>

That was an interesting read. Thanks for the link. >>

I'll second that. I see the whole book is posed on the website. I am going to read the rest of the book too. I just read the intro, and can hardly wait to get started on the rest of it. >>

It really is a great read. I re-read the entire book every couple years or so because the stories or so enjoyable.

Billet7 · January 3, 2014 9:43AM

<< I will never disclose my hoard of 64 key date Mercs in VF or better when I start selling them 20+ years. The hoard will likely be larger by then anyway. >>

You kinda just did.

Cougar1978 · January 3, 2014 9:56AM

Should a poker player tip the other players he has a full house - no. Should a seller feel obligated to disclose he owns a large coin hoard - of course not, its his choice.

Buyers need to take responsibility and do their homework. I see coin buyers all the time saying "I am hoarding 19xx Barber halves, etc." Aa acquaintance in the coin club hoards 1934-S Peace Dollars.

s4ny · January 3, 2014 11:11PM

What if someone disclosed a new hoard of some very rare coin but the hoard didn't exist?

(Like bluffing in the previous poker example.)

ctf_error_coins · January 4, 2014 12:09AM

<< What if someone disclosed a new hoard of some very rare coin but the hoard didn't exist?

(Like bluffing in the previous poker example.) >>

LOL, sounds like they are looking to buy .........

MGLICKER · January 4, 2014 3:04AM

<< What if someone disclosed a new hoard of some very rare coin but the hoard didn't exist?

(Like bluffing in the previous poker example.) >>

Suspect that ploy has been already used.

astrorat · January 4, 2014 3:19AM

In November of this year, a hoard of of 167 double dimes came to the market. Purchased by a father and then his son over several decades, it represents one of the largest accumulations of double dimes assembled.

Did the seller have an obligation to alert potential buyers that the hoard could affect the market price of US twenty-cent pieces?

Is that the question being posed?

Tookybandit · January 4, 2014 3:20AM

Should a poker player tip the other players he has a full house - no. Should a seller feel obligated to disclose he owns a large coin hoard - of course not, its his choice.
Buyers need to take responsibility and do their homework. I see coin buyers all the time saying "I am hoarding 19xx Barber halves, etc." An acquaintance in the coin club hoards 1934-S Peace Dollars.

Dispersing them all at once, or informing everyone all at once that they exist would be doing a HUGE disservice to the owner AND the people who already own an example. The population reports will reflect the existence of these coins, the best course of action is to slowly let them enter the market. If you want to talk about the moral or ethical thing to do, I believe this is the best way to proceed, by NOT announcing it out-loud. The demand is there (if it is in fact a Key date) and the market will absorb it, perhaps a price lag for a few years, it will rebound and make up for the lag. The publicity of a whole roll being discovered (it's happened many times) creates the "Mob Mentality" that all of a sudden these coins are worthless, which is untrue, but still damaging.

There is no responsibility..either legally or ethically, to inform the market of such things. It is business, and the owner of such property is in control of said property. In no way is such an individual required to potentially destroy his potential profit for the sake of an as yet unknown market. Any other assumption is flawed. And yes, I am trained and certified in ethics, and was the ethics officer for my former company. Just as a business, who makes a breakthrough on a product that will make the former products less desirable or even obsolete, is not required to inform the market prior to it's release. Cheers, RickO

MGLICKER · January 4, 2014 3:31AM

<< In November of this year, a hoard of of 167 double dimes came to the market. Purchased by a father and then his son over several decades, it represents one of the largest accumulations of double dimes assembled.

Did the seller have an obligation to alert potential buyers that the hoard could affect the market price of US twenty-cent pieces?

Is that the question being posed? >>

My question was more about the professional seller as opposed to the collector, though the opinions are valid on both.

I was thinking about this after buying a fairly large lot of relatively inexpensive, recently graded coins. The pop jumped from about 750 to 850 in a short time, which I assume included my lot of 50. I paid a competitive price and am quite satisfied, but I wondered if there were another 300 or 500 coins behind it, which could have cut the price by a third or half.

Absolutely no criticism of the seller in this case. Just wanted to see how you folks felt about the subject.

ColonelJessup · January 4, 2014 8:00AM

<< ....

I was thinking about this after buying a fairly large lot of relatively inexpensive, recently graded coins. The pop jumped from about 750 to 850 in a short time, which I assume included my lot of 50. I paid a competitive price and am quite satisfied, but I wondered if there were another 300 or 500 coins behind it, which could have cut the price by a third or half.

Absolutely no criticism of the seller in this case. Just wanted to see how you folks felt about the subject. >>

With a pop that high, the market likely has already factored in oversupply at the current level, but it's tough to generalize. And It would be diseconomic to tell us what the actual coins are.

Take as a "for instance" a lot of 50 white 1881-S $1's MS67. Very little upside, very little downside. Already commoditized, no matter how sweet the look. Stable price because the balance between supply and demand is self-correcting and easily calculable over any time period anyone might choose. But consistent "strong-enough" demand is pretty much a given.

50 Yorks in MS66?. Aren't they already trading for 25% over XF money? Trading may not be the right term for Yorks. Moldering is more likely. 300 pieces? Some pump-n-dump telemarketer would mayhap take a shot. But the telemarketer is going to get the juice.

I could go on and on (and usually do).... A hard overall market in which to make markets in widgets. Widgets are for bulk wholesalers, not collectors, and, in my experience, investors holding widgets are really bucking the odds. You're paying to warehouse coins for the wholesaler when the same or another wholesaler can come back and take another bite on the way out the door.

You've asked, answered and commented here often enough for me to think your (assumed by me) previous experience has exposed you to some facets of this. Hope this helped you better evaluate your situation.

Jcarney · January 4, 2014 9:24AM

No and no.

csdot · January 4, 2014 11:09AM

Since the trend for obtaining the highest price today seems to be (1) sending the coin to a top TPG, then (2) obtaining a CAC sticker, wouldn't the inclusion of additional coins be revealed to anyone doing their homework? The first, second or third coin might sneak past a dealer or collector, but can the same be said about the 4th, 10th, 50th?

FullCameo · January 4, 2014 11:32AM

<< Assuming that the size could be market changing, is it ethically incumbent upon dealers/auction houses to alert buyers and bidders about lots that could drop substantially in value due to a large influx of similar coins? >>

It's not the dealers job to hold a collectors/bidders hand. Caveat Emptor

MGLICKER · January 4, 2014 11:34AM

<< Since the trend for obtaining the highest price today seems to be (1) sending the coin to a top TPG, then (2) obtaining a CAC sticker, wouldn't the inclusion of additional coins be revealed to anyone doing their homework? The first, second or third coin might sneak past a dealer or collector, but can the same be said about the 4th, 10th, 50th? >>

Welcome to the forum csdot. I have found in the past that pop numbers can lag and not show up for a few weeks after grading.

ctf_error_coins · January 5, 2014 12:13AM

<< 

<< Since the trend for obtaining the highest price today seems to be (1) sending the coin to a top TPG, then (2) obtaining a CAC sticker, wouldn't the inclusion of additional coins be revealed to anyone doing their homework? The first, second or third coin might sneak past a dealer or collector, but can the same be said about the 4th, 10th, 50th? >>

Welcome to the forum csdot. I have found in the past that pop numbers can lag and not show up for a few weeks after grading. >>

Not all coins are graded. Many hoards are raw.

astrorat · January 5, 2014 12:22AM

<< Since the trend for obtaining the highest price today seems to be (1) sending the coin to a top TPG, then (2) obtaining a CAC sticker, wouldn't the inclusion of additional coins be revealed to anyone doing their homework? The first, second or third coin might sneak past a dealer or collector, but can the same be said about the 4th, 10th, 50th? >>

Welcome csdot!

The OP question was not about should people do their homework (which makes perfect sense, of course), but rather should a seller be obligated to disclose knowledge of a hoard that he/she may believe affects the value of a coin they are selling. It's a mild way of asking if a seller should be obligated to educate a buyer on potential risks of buying their coin.

Should sellers disclose knowledge of large coin hoards?

Comments

Leave a Comment