<< <i>So on base percentage is now the standard to get into the HOF? Mac is equal to or greater than Gwynn, Carew, Morgan, or even Wagner? Come on, skin, you're better than that. >>
Being a great player has always been the standard. For any hitter, their ability to get on base and not make outs is always a huge part of that. You're better than that to think otherwise
McGwire is very close to Gwynn. A bit further behind Carew (but much of that is because of his years as a middle infielder). Not really all that close to Wagner or Morgan, but again that's because of how much they did defensively, offensively there is a strong case for McGwire being ahead of all the names you listed (at least among the ones who started their career in the past 100 years)
<< <i>May be one trick, but it was one heckuva trick!
However, with a career .394 OB%, McGwire eclipses Tony Gwynn(.388) in the main trick that got him into the HOF(getting on base). So McGwire really has two tricks, and they happen to be the two most important tricks a position player has(SLG and OB). >>
So on base percentage is now the standard to get into the HOF? Mac is equal to or greater than Gwynn, Carew, Morgan, or even Wagner? Come on, skin, you're better than that. >>
Stown, a couple of points, 1)Perhaps you read my statement wrong. When I was referring to the one trick being a heckuva trick, I was referring to his HR/SLG ability. 2)Pointing to his outstanding OB% was simply a way to show that he wasn't just a one trick pony. He had at least two tricks...and they are the two best tricks to have for a hitter
However one wants to view defense is another question, but he was a pretty good defensive first baseman.
<< <i>May be one trick, but it was one heckuva trick!
However, with a career .394 OB%, McGwire eclipses Tony Gwynn(.388) in the main trick that got him into the HOF(getting on base). So McGwire really has two tricks, and they happen to be the two most important tricks a position player has(SLG and OB). >>
So on base percentage is now the standard to get into the HOF? Mac is equal to or greater than Gwynn, Carew, Morgan, or even Wagner? Come on, skin, you're better than that. >>
In their primes, you're suggesting that Gwynn, Carew, Morgan or Wagner was more feared and more of a threat than McGwire? Methinks you're letting personal bias get in the way of objective reasoning. As skin stated, he got on base at a furious clip, and hit for fearsome power. If you would rather have Gwynn hitting singles and doubles than McGwire hitting bombs then you don't know how to evaluate hitters very well.
But then anything that opposes your (flawed) idea that McGwire doesn't belong in the hall you have to fight tooth and nail, no matter how silly and petty and WRONG it makes you look, am I right stown?
<< <i>Stown, a couple of points, 1)Perhaps you read my statement wrong. When I was referring to the one trick being a heckuva trick, I was referring to his HR/SLG ability. 2)Pointing to his outstanding OB% was simply a way to show that he wasn't just a one trick pony. He had at least two tricks...and they are the two best tricks to have for a hitter
However one wants to view defense is another question, but he was a pretty good defensive first baseman. >>
That makes more sense, thanks for clarifying. Mac did have another trick, striking out. A lot.
Having said that, he still isn't HOF worthy but neither was Reggie. However, his post-season heroics and becoming part of World Series lore got him over the hump.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Now Mark McGwire nor Reggie Jackson aren't HoF worthy, but Biggio is? Good gravy I've heard it all now.
Who cares if they struck out a lot? If that's your fallback position as to why they don't deserve induction, then I suggest a new strategy. Reggie was good for 74 WAR over his career, good for 50th all time. McGwire has the all time best HR/AB ratio in baseball history and has a *career* adjusted OPS+ of 163 - which is 13th (!!!) all time.
No, if you're going to sit there and suggest either one of these guys' hitting doesn't merit induction, then you, sir, have no idea what it means to be a Hall of Famer. Couple that with your previously stated backing of Biggio as a HoFer and it's even clearer you are completely clueless on this topic.
Where exactly on the list of players from the steroid era would Biggio rank? Would anyone not wringing their hands and clutching their pearls over the 'travesty' of PED use in the era even think about him?
The Hall of Fame is a museum dedicated to highlighting the history of baseball, and its most important and influential people. Leaving out players like McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, and others in a pathetically nauseating display of mock-integrity is insulting to the history of the game. These guys were the defining faces of the era, they put up the numbers to merit induction. Throw all the PED talk on their plaques so future generations can actually experience the history of the game, and not have to wonder why there's a 30 year gap in history of the sport.
<< <i>I'm so...so glad that McGwire never makes it into the HOF...and that Biggio does. >>
Why? You prefer a watered down HoF which ignores an entire era? >>
Another era of what? Selfish, greedy reprobates that have no care for the game or the fans, only the ill gotten mega million dollar contracts and the Ho's that will schtup them for a couple hundred dollars and a few lines of Coke.
<< <i>I'm so...so glad that McGwire never makes it into the HOF...and that Biggio does. >>
Why? You prefer a watered down HoF which ignores an entire era? >>
Another era of what? Selfish, greedy reprobates that have no care for the game or the fans, only the ill gotten mega million dollar contracts and the Ho's that will schtup them for a couple hundred dollars and a few lines of Coke. >>
The comment is too foolish to bother reasoning with.
<< <i>The comment is too foolish to bother reasoning with. >>
From a fan of the cheaters, this comment is not surprising.
Indian logos bad, pumping oneself up with drugs to make a roster, good. >>
Yes, logos which mock an entire race are indeed bad, and the fact that you and your ilk refuse to admit as such is a problem. And taking a substance to maximize performance, and trying to equate the two? You really are pathetic.
McGwire, based on his achievements on the field, merits induction. So do Bonds and Clemens. If they were inducted, baseball wouldn't collapse, kids wouldn't turn into rampant PED users, and the Hall would be an actual representation of the best players of all time. As it is now, it's a joke, as are the lot of you trying to defend ignoring the best players of the last era.
Wouldnt one say that McGwire's OB% is due to his cheating? The fear of him hitting HR's gave him a lot of free passes to first base. I'm not a fan of the cheaters being voted in. They are an era of disgrace. Why disgrace the HOF even more than what it already is?
I do believe that McGwire and Sosa brought baseball fans back and that is something we should be grateful for. But their reward is not the HOF.
Though I do believe Pete Rose should be in only based on his achievements on the field. He is surely a disgrace as a manager but he wouldnt be going into the HOF as a manager.
Yes, I would rather see Biggio in the HOF long before Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmeiro, etc.
Where exactly on the list of players from the steroid era would Biggio rank? Would anyone not wringing their hands and clutching their pearls over the 'travesty' of PED use in the era even think about him?
The Hall of Fame is a museum dedicated to highlighting the history of baseball, and its most important and influential people. Leaving out players like McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, and others in a pathetically nauseating display of mock-integrity is insulting to the history of the game. These guys were the defining faces of the era, they put up the numbers to merit induction. Throw all the PED talk on their plaques so future generations can actually experience the history of the game, and not have to wonder why there's a 30 year gap in history of the sport. >>
Feel free to rank them anyway you like. Dude had 3000 hits and played his entire career with one team. Pretty rare in this day and age. To me he's a no brainer HOFer. People can debate the merits of Sosa and McGwire until they're blue in the face. I didn't think McGwire deserved to be in the HOF before we even knew about the extent of his PED use. Hell, I'd put Rafael Palmeiro in way before I even considered McGwire.
<< <i>The Hall is a literal hall, there is also a museum attached (The Baseball Hall of Fame Museum), but this isn't relevant. >>
Guess this needed to be repeated since, for whatever reason, it continues to be misrepresented.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>. As it is now, it's a joke, as are the lot of you trying to defend ignoring the best players of the last era. >>
How do you know who the best players were? Sosa and McGwire were the best when they were juiced and pumping out 60 plus home runs. Suddenly Bonds joined the fray and hit 73 home runs. How many home runs would Hank Aaron have hit if he were on the sauce? He was a rather slim guy. With drugs maybe he hits 900 homers, maybe 1000. What about Willie Mays. Had he dodged the draft (missed a season and a half to military service) and had some pharmaceutical help like your heroes, his home run tally would still be untouched.
You want to tarnish their legacy with a bunch of slimy, vermin sharing the same hallowed hall?
McGwire's numbers alone show anyone with a brain that he merits induction. Biggio? Did anyone fear that guy? Nobody did. He was the quintessential stat accumulator. Never a league leader, just plodded along, played about 4 years too long because he knew his only shot at the hall was that 3000 hit plateau. If he had failed in his 3000 hit quest, would anyone even mention him as a HoFer? Of course not, but this random, arbitrary number is what he and his mindless backers are hanging their hat on.
McGwire, on the other hand, was a fearsome beast from the moment he came up, and was such until he retired. Yes he used PEDs, but guess what? Nearly everyone in baseball was using, so it's not like he wasn't on a level playing field. Canseco's estimate that 85% of players were using, which was initially laughed at, well we can pretty much assume it's true, as everything else he claimed in that book turned out to be true as well.
Anyone suggesting that even taking away the PED stigma, they wouldn't vote McGwire in? Then it's apparent you're either (a) lying about dismissing the PED thing, or (b) have no idea what it means to be a HoFer.
<< <i>McGwire, on the other hand, was a fearsome beast from the moment he came up, and was such until he retired. Yes he used PEDs, but guess what? Nearly everyone in baseball was using, so it's not like he wasn't on a level playing field >>
Sort of like awarding a "Man of the Year" award in the penitentiary. They are all crooks, but one stands out.
<< <i>. As it is now, it's a joke, as are the lot of you trying to defend ignoring the best players of the last era. >>
How do you know who the best players were? >>
The numbers don't lie. McGwire was easily one of the best hitters of his generation, and is in the conversation for all time as well.
<< <i> Sosa and McGwire were the best when they were juiced and pumping out 60 plus home runs. >>
So what if they juiced? Juicing doesn't give you the ability to hit the ball. If it was simple as taking a substance, EVERYONE would be taking something and EVERYONE would be hitting 60 homeruns. Nice job, but your argument is completely flawed.
<< <i> Suddenly Bonds joined the fray and hit 73 home runs. How many home runs would Hank Aaron have hit if he were on the sauce? >>
How many would he have hit if he hadn't been popping greenies? Amphetamines, unlike steroids, were illegal but were indeed performance enhancing drugs, and were widely available and used by players back to the 50s.
<< <i> He was a rather slim guy. With drugs maybe he hits 900 homers, maybe 1000. >>
He WAS taking drugs.
<< <i> What about Willie Mays. Had he dodged the draft (missed a season and a half to military service) and had some pharmaceutical help like your heroes, his home run tally would still be untouched. >>
You keep tossing around this word 'heroes' like its some sort of insult.
<< <i>You want to tarnish their legacy with a bunch of slimy, vermin sharing the same hallowed hall? >>
But it's ok to share it with blatantly racist guys like Ty Cobb? And hallowed hall? LOL Methinks you think too highly of the people who played a sport for a living.
<< <i> Having said that, he still isn't HOF worthy but neither was Reggie. However, his post-season heroics and becoming part of World Series lore got him over the hump. >>
Talk about something that needs repeating, but this gem from stown is amazing. Reggie isn't hall worthy, but Biggio is? Hilarious! I chuckle every time I see this nonsense, and I had to repost it.
<< <i>McGwire's numbers alone show anyone with a brain that he merits induction. Biggio? Did anyone fear that guy? Nobody did. He was the quintessential stat accumulator. Never a league leader, just plodded along, played about 4 years too long because he knew his only shot at the hall was that 3000 hit plateau. If he had failed in his 3000 hit quest, would anyone even mention him as a HoFer? Of course not, but this random, arbitrary number is what he and his mindless backers are hanging their hat on.
McGwire, on the other hand, was a fearsome beast from the moment he came up, and was such until he retired. Yes he used PEDs, but guess what? Nearly everyone in baseball was using, so it's not like he wasn't on a level playing field. Canseco's estimate that 85% of players were using, which was initially laughed at, well we can pretty much assume it's true, as everything else he claimed in that book turned out to be true as well.
Anyone suggesting that even taking away the PED stigma, they wouldn't vote McGwire in? Then it's apparent you're either (a) lying about dismissing the PED thing, or (b) have no idea what it means to be a HoFer. >>
Another "he was feared" argument. That's the same lame phrase uttered over and over by the defenders of the Jim Rice induction. He was feared. Is that the new prerequisite for induction? If that's the case...roll out the red carpet for Kingman, George Foster, and Dave Parker. All pre-roid era stars that will never get in.
Was Tony Gwynn "feared"...was Ozzie Smith "feared"?
Stat accumulator? What do you think the Hall of Fame is?
Perhaps if the name were changed to the Hall of Baseball Stats we could all be satisfied. Pete Rose would be near the front as he had the most hits. A robotic smiling Barry Bonds would be next up as he hit the most homers.
<< <i>Perhaps if the name were changed to the Hall of Baseball Stats we could all be satisfied. Pete Rose would be near the front as he had the most hits. A robotic smiling Barry Bonds would be next up as he hit the most homers. >>
Fine by me..
Sheesh...Rose, what a total stat accumulator.
They both whould be if not for...well, you know the stories. McGwire would still be sitting by the phone waiting for the call...like the oaf he is.
<< <i> Another "he was feared" argument. That's the same lame phrase uttered over and over by the defenders of the Jim Rice induction. He was feared. Is that the new prerequisite for induction? If that's the case...roll out the red carpet for Kingman, George Foster, and Dave Parker. All pre-roid era stars that will never get in.
Was Tony Gwynn "feared"...was Ozzie Smith "feared"?
Stat accumulator? What do you think the Hall of Fame is? >>
Ozzie Smith is not a HoFer, and is by far the weakest hitting player in the hall. You want to talk about a one trick pony, all he had was doing backflips. Tony Gwynn? You better believe he was feared, and he could actually hit (unlike Smith).
Sorry, but McGwire's numbers are so far ahead of any of those guys (Kingman, Foster, Parker) it's not even funny. He was a beast - anyone suggesting otherwise simply doesn't possess the ability to understand the game. But go on, keep fighting the good fight (in your head) as if keeping important guys like McGwire, Clemens, and Bonds out of the hall is somehow doing a service to the game and its history, and isn't anything more than a pathetically veiled attempt to hide an entire era. An era which YOU and everyone who was a baseball fan cheered for. YOU cheered in 1998 and Sosa and McGwire brought baseball back from the void. YOU cheered along with Maris' family when McGwire broke the record. YOU cheered the entire summer as Sosa and McGwire battled for the HR lead. If YOU say you didn't, then YOU are lying.
<< <i> Another "he was feared" argument. That's the same lame phrase uttered over and over by the defenders of the Jim Rice induction. He was feared. Is that the new prerequisite for induction? If that's the case...roll out the red carpet for Kingman, George Foster, and Dave Parker. All pre-roid era stars that will never get in.
Was Tony Gwynn "feared"...was Ozzie Smith "feared"?
Stat accumulator? What do you think the Hall of Fame is? >>
Ozzie Smith is not a HoFer, and is by far the weakest hitting player in the hall. You want to talk about a one trick pony, all he had was doing backflips. Tony Gwynn? You better believe he was feared, and he could actually hit (unlike Smith).
Sorry, but McGwire's numbers are so far ahead of any of those guys (Kingman, Foster, Parker) it's not even funny. He was a beast - anyone suggesting otherwise simply doesn't possess the ability to understand the game. But go on, keep fighting the good fight (in your head) as if keeping important guys like McGwire, Clemens, and Bonds out of the hall is somehow doing a service to the game and its history, and isn't anything more than a pathetically veiled attempt to hide an entire era. An era which YOU and everyone who was a baseball fan cheered for. YOU cheered in 1998 and Sosa and McGwire brought baseball back from the void. YOU cheered along with Maris' family when McGwire broke the record. YOU cheered the entire summer as Sosa and McGwire battled for the HR lead. If YOU say you didn't, then YOU are lying. >>
So dramatic.....such poetry. Brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it all.
That HR race did not bring true fans "back" to baseball...because they never left. It was a nice national story that ESPN could lap up...and casual fans could digest and get behind. That was the type of story that interested my girlfriend at the time. And I swear....I'm not lying. Anymore than I was excited to see Bonds break that oafs HR record a few years after. I remember dopes here in Detroit going to batting practice for the first time EVER when McGwire and the Cardinals came to town for interleague play. I'm sure they'll be bouncing their grandkids on their knees years from now...telling them about that magical summer of 1998. Gross.
I'm not comparing Biggio to Rose. That's what we call a joke, or sarcasm. I'll put it in different font next time so you recognize it.
<< <i>YOU and everyone who was a baseball fan cheered for. YOU cheered in 1998 and Sosa and McGwire brought baseball back from the void. YOU cheered along with Maris' family when McGwire broke the record. YOU cheered the entire summer as Sosa and McGwire battled for the HR lead. If YOU say you didn't, then YOU are lying. >> >>
I also cheered for Lance Armstrong and Joe Paterno............how did that work out.
<< <i> dramatic.....such poetry. Brings a tear to my just thinking about it all. >>
It wasn't meant to be dramatic or poetry, but to each his own.
<< <i>That HR race did not bring true fans "back" to baseball...because they never left. >>
Who said anything about 'true' fans or 'casual' fans? But to sit there and suggest that baseball attendance, or national prominence, or ratings had not take a massive hit due to the strike and cancelled world series is revisionist history, and completely devoid of anything resembling truth.
<< <i> It was a nice national story that ESPN could lap up...and casual fans could digest and get behind. That was the type of story that interested my girlfriend at the time. And I swear....I'm not lying. Anymore than I was excited to see Bonds break that oafs HR record a few years after. I remember dopes here in Detroit going to batting practice for the first time EVER when McGwire and the Cardinals came to town for interleague play. I'm sure they'll be bouncing their grandkids on their knees years from now...telling them about that magical summer of 1998. Gross. >>
You think it was just ESPN who was covering this story? Are you nuts? Forgetful? The media coverage on this race was EVERYWHERE, and yes, I mean EVERYWHERE. The Summer of 1998 WAS magical. It saved baseball. I don't care one iota that you want to try to change history and suggest otherwise, but without that chase, baseball is not where it is today in terms of popularity.
"Sept. 8, 1998, was the rare moment when everyone was watching. The Mark McGwire-Sammy Sosa home run chase had dominated the conversation for six months, giving baseball the national spotlight it hadn't had since the 1994 strike and arguably hasn't had since, at least in a positive way. It's easy to forget how crazy the country got about the home run chase back in 1998. McGwire was a phenomenon all season, wherever he went. Jerry Seinfeld visited him in New York, Dan Marino in Florida, Duchess Sarah Ferguson at Wrigley Field. ("He's my favorite redhead," she said, carrying a bat that McGwire had autographed.) President Clinton, in the depths of Monicagate, referenced him, and the fact that he grew up a Cardinals fan, at every opportunity. David Letterman pitched to him on 57th Street. The craziest was batting practice: Not only would fans line up to fill the stadium two hours early just to watch McGwire take BP, in Colorado, a local affiliate actually aired his batting practice live on broadcast television. It was the highest-rated show of the week. People loved McGwire."
Sitting there and suggesting that only ESPN covered this story, and trying to gloss over the massive, national (and international) impact the HR chase of 1998 had is disingenuous at best and completely ignorant of baseball history at worst. It's what people who want to feign outrage over the thought of their heroes from the past (who simply took other performance enhancing substances) having their records bested by players taking different substances.
<< <i>I'm not comparing Biggio to Rose. That's what we call a joke, or sarcasm. I'll put it in different font next time to you recognize it. >>
No, you were comparing them, suggesting that Rose was an accumulator like Biggio was, just like you tried (and failed) to compare McGwire to Kingman and Parker.
<< <i>YOU and everyone who was a baseball fan cheered for. YOU cheered in 1998 and Sosa and McGwire brought baseball back from the void. YOU cheered along with Maris' family when McGwire broke the record. YOU cheered the entire summer as Sosa and McGwire battled for the HR lead. If YOU say you didn't, then YOU are lying. >> >>
I also cheered for Lance Armstrong and Joe Paterno............how did that work out. >>
So you want to compare guys who push their bodies to the absolute limit with someone who aided a pedophile? You, sir, are a vile person indeed. Talk about disgusting, that is you in a word. Disgusting.
<< <i>So you want to compare guys who push their bodies to the absolute limit with someone who aided a pedophile? You, sir, are a vile person indeed. Talk about disgusting, that is you in a word. Disgusting. >>
No, but I would certainly group grown men who push drugs onto children in the same category as pedophiles. McGwire should be in prison, not the Hall.
Once again, the point has been missed. I was cheering for Sosa and McGwire along with many others. The debate that year was whether the ball was juiced "remember that 1985fan? Fact was, the ball was fine, it was the players that were juiced.
Cheating has no place in professional sports. Once the integrity is gone, it takes a long, long time to get it back.
<< <i>So you want to compare guys who push their bodies to the absolute limit with someone who aided a pedophile? You, sir, are a vile person indeed. Talk about disgusting, that is you in a word. Disgusting. >>
No, but I would certainly group grown men who push drugs onto children in the same category as pedophiles. McGwire should be in prison, not the Hall. >>
Should be in prison? What drugs did McGwire 'push' onto children? I can't wait to hear this nonsense!
<< <i>Once again, the point has been missed. I was cheering for Sosa and McGwire along with many others. The debate that year was whether the ball was juiced "remember that 1985fan? Fact was, the ball was fine, it was the players that were juiced.
Cheating has no place in professional sports. Once the integrity is gone, it takes a long, long time to get it back. >>
But alas, they didn't cheat, so your entire argument is void (not that that is surprising). But keep spinning, at some point you'll say something rational, the whole saying about a broken clock being right twice a day and all.
<< <i>No, but I would certainly group grown men who push drugs onto children in the same category as pedophiles. McGwire should be in prison, not the Hall. >>
Should be in prison? What drugs did McGwire 'push' onto children? I can't wait to hear this nonsense! >>
The percentage of teenagers who have used steroids more than doubled from 1991 to 2003 (from 2.7% to 6.1%) right when the likes of Bonds, McGwire and Sosa were crushing home runs left and right. These men made this drug popular. It would be impossible to know the amount of damage their actions have inadvertently caused, but to honor these men for their stats as a result is sickening.
On a side note, McGwire was asked by congress if he played the game with integrity; McGwire couldn't answer. Why should he be inducted into anything? I would hope that the Baseball Hall of Fame would enshire men who can at least hold their head high when asked about their career.
<< <i>Once again, the point has been missed. I was cheering for Sosa and McGwire along with many others. The debate that year was whether the ball was juiced "remember that 1985fan? Fact was, the ball was fine, it was the players that were juiced.
Cheating has no place in professional sports. Once the integrity is gone, it takes a long, long time to get it back. >>
But alas, they didn't cheat, so your entire argument is void (not that that is surprising). But keep spinning, at some point you'll say something rational, the whole saying about a broken clock being right twice a day and all. >>
Oh yes, I am sure that Bonds had a prescription for the clear.
On original post; I really am confused when poster supports players who cheated, yet seems to be against managers who may or may not have known about their players using. A-roid should be in, but none of his managers that did nothing to stop his use, should NOT be allowed in? REALLY?
By the way, anyone who hasn't read Canseco's book hasn't read the ONLY information written by a baseball player about how (and why) he used. He did not do it in front of the manager or other players.
Secondly, the Hall of Fame is not the Hall of Statistical Achievements, if that's what you want start it up, put your 100 or so guys in and then lock the doors. The one we have now is fine, not perfect, but good enough.
To say that the Hall of Fame is meaningless is simply a stupid, ignorant, UNTRUE comment. Should a few not be in, that are in? Yes. Should a few not in, be in? Yes.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Another surreal thread. There's absolutely no rhyme or reason when it comes to a 1985fan rant. It's almost as if you flip a coin, take a wild stance and hang on for dear life just for the sake of argument. With as much progressive fervor as you brought to the table in regard to the Redskins topic, one would think you'd fight just as hard to demand real change and prevent the name of baseball from being sullied even further. Nah. That would make far too much sense. Instead, you'd rather toss all of the reprobates into the sport's sanctuary and omit a quintessential HoFer like Biggio. Heaven forbid you appreciate a guy who played an entire 20-year career for the same franchise, has never once had his name linked to PEDs AND has the numbers to back it up.
As for him being a stat accumulator? Typical myopic barb from you. The guy loved and respected the game of baseball, and the game of baseball (especially in Houston) loved and respected him back. He revered the game so much that his skills naturally eroded and his 5'11", 185-lb frame hardly (if at all) deviated over the course of two decades. Stellar play with squeaky clean longevity.....what a novel concept. I myself have great admiration for players who choose that course, and it's those types I deem Hall worthy if the numerical stars align. But you? Extolling players who are a complete disgrace to the game is what sends a thrill up your leg. In your severely warped mind, expunging the virtues of baseball is acceptable just so long as you save it.
When the road bifurcated in his late 30s, I'm very thankful that Biggio chose the path that didn't include duping an entire fan base and artificially knocking the sh*t out of the Minute Maid train with regularity.
<< <i>Another surreal thread. There's absolutely no rhyme or reason when it comes to a 1985fan rant. It's almost as if you flip a coin, take a wild stance and hang on for dear life just for the sake of argument. With as much progressive fervor as you brought to the table in regard to the Redskins topic, one would think you'd fight just as hard to demand real change and prevent the name of baseball from being sullied even further. Nah. That would make far too much sense. Instead, you'd rather toss all of the reprobates into the sport's sanctuary and omit a quintessential HoFer like Biggio. Heaven forbid you appreciate a guy who played an entire 20-year career for the same franchise, has never once had his name linked to PEDs AND has the numbers to back it up.
As for him being a stat accumulator? Typical myopic barb from you. The guy loved and respected the game of baseball, and the game of baseball (especially in Houston) loved and respected him back. He revered the game so much that his skills naturally eroded and his 5'11", 185-lb frame hardly (if at all) deviated over the course of two decades. Stellar play with squeaky clean longevity.....what a novel concept. I myself have great admiration for players who choose that course, and it's those types I deem Hall worthy if the numerical stars align. But you? Extolling players who are a complete disgrace to the game is what sends a thrill up your leg. In your severely warped mind, expunging the virtues of baseball is acceptable just so long as you save it.
When the road bifurcated in his late 30s, I'm very thankful that Biggio chose the path that didn't include duping an entire fan base and artificially knocking the sh*t out of the Minute Maid train with regularity. >>
I absolutely agree with your thoughts here on Biggio, but calling any steroid user a 'complete disgrace to the game' seems, at least to me, to verge on hyperbole.
<< <i>Stellar play with squeaky clean longevity.....what a novel concept. >>
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Comments
<< <i>So on base percentage is now the standard to get into the HOF? Mac is equal to or greater than Gwynn, Carew, Morgan, or even Wagner? Come on, skin, you're better than that. >>
Being a great player has always been the standard. For any hitter, their ability to get on base and not make outs is always a huge part of that. You're better than that to think otherwise
McGwire is very close to Gwynn. A bit further behind Carew (but much of that is because of his years as a middle infielder). Not really all that close to Wagner or Morgan, but again that's because of how much they did defensively, offensively there is a strong case for McGwire being ahead of all the names you listed (at least among the ones who started their career in the past 100 years)
<< <i>
<< <i>May be one trick, but it was one heckuva trick!
However, with a career .394 OB%, McGwire eclipses Tony Gwynn(.388) in the main trick that got him into the HOF(getting on base). So McGwire really has two tricks, and they happen to be the two most important tricks a position player has(SLG and OB). >>
So on base percentage is now the standard to get into the HOF? Mac is equal to or greater than Gwynn, Carew, Morgan, or even Wagner? Come on, skin, you're better than that. >>
Stown, a couple of points, 1)Perhaps you read my statement wrong. When I was referring to the one trick being a heckuva trick, I was referring to his HR/SLG ability. 2)Pointing to his outstanding OB% was simply a way to show that he wasn't just a one trick pony. He had at least two tricks...and they are the two best tricks to have for a hitter
However one wants to view defense is another question, but he was a pretty good defensive first baseman.
<< <i>
<< <i>May be one trick, but it was one heckuva trick!
However, with a career .394 OB%, McGwire eclipses Tony Gwynn(.388) in the main trick that got him into the HOF(getting on base). So McGwire really has two tricks, and they happen to be the two most important tricks a position player has(SLG and OB). >>
So on base percentage is now the standard to get into the HOF? Mac is equal to or greater than Gwynn, Carew, Morgan, or even Wagner? Come on, skin, you're better than that. >>
In their primes, you're suggesting that Gwynn, Carew, Morgan or Wagner was more feared and more of a threat than McGwire? Methinks you're letting personal bias get in the way of objective reasoning. As skin stated, he got on base at a furious clip, and hit for fearsome power. If you would rather have Gwynn hitting singles and doubles than McGwire hitting bombs then you don't know how to evaluate hitters very well.
But then anything that opposes your (flawed) idea that McGwire doesn't belong in the hall you have to fight tooth and nail, no matter how silly and petty and WRONG it makes you look, am I right stown?
<< <i>Stown, a couple of points, 1)Perhaps you read my statement wrong. When I was referring to the one trick being a heckuva trick, I was referring to his HR/SLG ability. 2)Pointing to his outstanding OB% was simply a way to show that he wasn't just a one trick pony. He had at least two tricks...and they are the two best tricks to have for a hitter
However one wants to view defense is another question, but he was a pretty good defensive first baseman. >>
That makes more sense, thanks for clarifying. Mac did have another trick, striking out. A lot.
Having said that, he still isn't HOF worthy but neither was Reggie. However, his post-season heroics and becoming part of World Series lore got him over the hump.
Who cares if they struck out a lot? If that's your fallback position as to why they don't deserve induction, then I suggest a new strategy. Reggie was good for 74 WAR over his career, good for 50th all time. McGwire has the all time best HR/AB ratio in baseball history and has a *career* adjusted OPS+ of 163 - which is 13th (!!!) all time.
No, if you're going to sit there and suggest either one of these guys' hitting doesn't merit induction, then you, sir, have no idea what it means to be a Hall of Famer. Couple that with your previously stated backing of Biggio as a HoFer and it's even clearer you are completely clueless on this topic.
<< <i>I'm so...so glad that McGwire never makes it into the HOF...and that Biggio does. >>
Why? You prefer a watered down HoF which ignores an entire era?
<< <i>Not at all...Biggio's from that era. >>
Where exactly on the list of players from the steroid era would Biggio rank? Would anyone not wringing their hands and clutching their pearls over the 'travesty' of PED use in the era even think about him?
The Hall of Fame is a museum dedicated to highlighting the history of baseball, and its most important and influential people. Leaving out players like McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, and others in a pathetically nauseating display of mock-integrity is insulting to the history of the game. These guys were the defining faces of the era, they put up the numbers to merit induction. Throw all the PED talk on their plaques so future generations can actually experience the history of the game, and not have to wonder why there's a 30 year gap in history of the sport.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm so...so glad that McGwire never makes it into the HOF...and that Biggio does. >>
Why? You prefer a watered down HoF which ignores an entire era? >>
Another era of what? Selfish, greedy reprobates that have no care for the game or the fans, only the ill gotten mega million dollar contracts and the Ho's that will schtup them for a couple hundred dollars and a few lines of Coke.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm so...so glad that McGwire never makes it into the HOF...and that Biggio does. >>
Why? You prefer a watered down HoF which ignores an entire era? >>
Another era of what? Selfish, greedy reprobates that have no care for the game or the fans, only the ill gotten mega million dollar contracts and the Ho's that will schtup them for a couple hundred dollars and a few lines of Coke. >>
The comment is too foolish to bother reasoning with.
<< <i>The comment is too foolish to bother reasoning with. >>
From a fan of the cheaters, this comment is not surprising.
Indian logos bad, pumping oneself up with drugs to make a roster, good.
<< <i>Olbermann carries zero credibility to me. I would listen to my Rottweiler before that talking head.
Kind of get why you would be a fan though, 1985fan. >>
This.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i>
<< <i>The comment is too foolish to bother reasoning with. >>
From a fan of the cheaters, this comment is not surprising.
Indian logos bad, pumping oneself up with drugs to make a roster, good. >>
Yes, logos which mock an entire race are indeed bad, and the fact that you and your ilk refuse to admit as such is a problem. And taking a substance to maximize performance, and trying to equate the two? You really are pathetic.
McGwire, based on his achievements on the field, merits induction. So do Bonds and Clemens. If they were inducted, baseball wouldn't collapse, kids wouldn't turn into rampant PED users, and the Hall would be an actual representation of the best players of all time. As it is now, it's a joke, as are the lot of you trying to defend ignoring the best players of the last era.
I do believe that McGwire and Sosa brought baseball fans back and that is something we should be grateful for. But their reward is not the HOF.
Though I do believe Pete Rose should be in only based on his achievements on the field. He is surely a disgrace as a manager but he wouldnt be going into the HOF as a manager.
Yes, I would rather see Biggio in the HOF long before Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmeiro, etc.
<< <i>
<< <i>Not at all...Biggio's from that era. >>
Where exactly on the list of players from the steroid era would Biggio rank? Would anyone not wringing their hands and clutching their pearls over the 'travesty' of PED use in the era even think about him?
The Hall of Fame is a museum dedicated to highlighting the history of baseball, and its most important and influential people. Leaving out players like McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, and others in a pathetically nauseating display of mock-integrity is insulting to the history of the game. These guys were the defining faces of the era, they put up the numbers to merit induction. Throw all the PED talk on their plaques so future generations can actually experience the history of the game, and not have to wonder why there's a 30 year gap in history of the sport. >>
Feel free to rank them anyway you like. Dude had 3000 hits and played his entire career with one team. Pretty rare in this day and age. To me he's a no brainer HOFer. People can debate the merits of Sosa and McGwire until they're blue in the face. I didn't think McGwire deserved to be in the HOF before we even knew about the extent of his PED use. Hell, I'd put Rafael Palmeiro in way before I even considered McGwire.
<< <i>The Hall is a literal hall, there is also a museum attached (The Baseball Hall of Fame Museum), but this isn't relevant. >>
Guess this needed to be repeated since, for whatever reason, it continues to be misrepresented.
<< <i>McGwire, based on his achievements on the field, merits induction. So do Bonds and Clemens. >>
Based on their achievements off the field, merits exclusion.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>. As it is now, it's a joke, as are the lot of you trying to defend ignoring the best players of the last era. >>
How do you know who the best players were? Sosa and McGwire were the best when they were juiced and pumping out 60 plus home runs. Suddenly Bonds joined the fray and hit 73 home runs. How many home runs would Hank Aaron have hit if he were on the sauce? He was a rather slim guy. With drugs maybe he hits 900 homers, maybe 1000. What about Willie Mays. Had he dodged the draft (missed a season and a half to military service) and had some pharmaceutical help like your heroes, his home run tally would still be untouched.
You want to tarnish their legacy with a bunch of slimy, vermin sharing the same hallowed hall?
McGwire, on the other hand, was a fearsome beast from the moment he came up, and was such until he retired. Yes he used PEDs, but guess what? Nearly everyone in baseball was using, so it's not like he wasn't on a level playing field. Canseco's estimate that 85% of players were using, which was initially laughed at, well we can pretty much assume it's true, as everything else he claimed in that book turned out to be true as well.
Anyone suggesting that even taking away the PED stigma, they wouldn't vote McGwire in? Then it's apparent you're either (a) lying about dismissing the PED thing, or (b) have no idea what it means to be a HoFer.
<< <i>McGwire, on the other hand, was a fearsome beast from the moment he came up, and was such until he retired. Yes he used PEDs, but guess what? Nearly everyone in baseball was using, so it's not like he wasn't on a level playing field >>
Sort of like awarding a "Man of the Year" award in the penitentiary. They are all crooks, but one stands out.
Your logic has failed.
<< <i>
<< <i>. As it is now, it's a joke, as are the lot of you trying to defend ignoring the best players of the last era. >>
How do you know who the best players were? >>
The numbers don't lie. McGwire was easily one of the best hitters of his generation, and is in the conversation for all time as well.
<< <i> Sosa and McGwire were the best when they were juiced and pumping out 60 plus home runs. >>
So what if they juiced? Juicing doesn't give you the ability to hit the ball. If it was simple as taking a substance, EVERYONE would be taking something and EVERYONE would be hitting 60 homeruns. Nice job, but your argument is completely flawed.
<< <i> Suddenly Bonds joined the fray and hit 73 home runs. How many home runs would Hank Aaron have hit if he were on the sauce? >>
How many would he have hit if he hadn't been popping greenies? Amphetamines, unlike steroids, were illegal but were indeed performance enhancing drugs, and were widely available and used by players back to the 50s.
<< <i> He was a rather slim guy. With drugs maybe he hits 900 homers, maybe 1000. >>
He WAS taking drugs.
<< <i> What about Willie Mays. Had he dodged the draft (missed a season and a half to military service) and had some pharmaceutical help like your heroes, his home run tally would still be untouched. >>
You keep tossing around this word 'heroes' like its some sort of insult.
<< <i>You want to tarnish their legacy with a bunch of slimy, vermin sharing the same hallowed hall? >>
But it's ok to share it with blatantly racist guys like Ty Cobb? And hallowed hall? LOL Methinks you think too highly of the people who played a sport for a living.
<< <i>
Having said that, he still isn't HOF worthy but neither was Reggie. However, his post-season heroics and becoming part of World Series lore got him over the hump. >>
Talk about something that needs repeating, but this gem from stown is amazing. Reggie isn't hall worthy, but Biggio is? Hilarious! I chuckle every time I see this nonsense, and I had to repost it.
<< <i>McGwire's numbers alone show anyone with a brain that he merits induction. Biggio? Did anyone fear that guy? Nobody did. He was the quintessential stat accumulator. Never a league leader, just plodded along, played about 4 years too long because he knew his only shot at the hall was that 3000 hit plateau. If he had failed in his 3000 hit quest, would anyone even mention him as a HoFer? Of course not, but this random, arbitrary number is what he and his mindless backers are hanging their hat on.
McGwire, on the other hand, was a fearsome beast from the moment he came up, and was such until he retired. Yes he used PEDs, but guess what? Nearly everyone in baseball was using, so it's not like he wasn't on a level playing field. Canseco's estimate that 85% of players were using, which was initially laughed at, well we can pretty much assume it's true, as everything else he claimed in that book turned out to be true as well.
Anyone suggesting that even taking away the PED stigma, they wouldn't vote McGwire in? Then it's apparent you're either (a) lying about dismissing the PED thing, or (b) have no idea what it means to be a HoFer. >>
Another "he was feared" argument. That's the same lame phrase uttered over and over by the defenders of the Jim Rice induction. He was feared. Is that the new prerequisite for induction? If that's the case...roll out the red carpet for Kingman, George Foster, and Dave Parker. All pre-roid era stars that will never get in.
Was Tony Gwynn "feared"...was Ozzie Smith "feared"?
Stat accumulator? What do you think the Hall of Fame is?
<< <i>Perhaps if the name were changed to the Hall of Baseball Stats we could all be satisfied. Pete Rose would be near the front as he had the most hits. A robotic smiling Barry Bonds would be next up as he hit the most homers. >>
Fine by me..
Sheesh...Rose, what a total stat accumulator.
They both whould be if not for...well, you know the stories. McGwire would still be sitting by the phone waiting for the call...like the oaf he is.
<< <i>
Another "he was feared" argument. That's the same lame phrase uttered over and over by the defenders of the Jim Rice induction. He was feared. Is that the new prerequisite for induction? If that's the case...roll out the red carpet for Kingman, George Foster, and Dave Parker. All pre-roid era stars that will never get in.
Was Tony Gwynn "feared"...was Ozzie Smith "feared"?
Stat accumulator? What do you think the Hall of Fame is? >>
Ozzie Smith is not a HoFer, and is by far the weakest hitting player in the hall. You want to talk about a one trick pony, all he had was doing backflips. Tony Gwynn? You better believe he was feared, and he could actually hit (unlike Smith).
Sorry, but McGwire's numbers are so far ahead of any of those guys (Kingman, Foster, Parker) it's not even funny. He was a beast - anyone suggesting otherwise simply doesn't possess the ability to understand the game. But go on, keep fighting the good fight (in your head) as if keeping important guys like McGwire, Clemens, and Bonds out of the hall is somehow doing a service to the game and its history, and isn't anything more than a pathetically veiled attempt to hide an entire era. An era which YOU and everyone who was a baseball fan cheered for. YOU cheered in 1998 and Sosa and McGwire brought baseball back from the void. YOU cheered along with Maris' family when McGwire broke the record. YOU cheered the entire summer as Sosa and McGwire battled for the HR lead. If YOU say you didn't, then YOU are lying.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Another "he was feared" argument. That's the same lame phrase uttered over and over by the defenders of the Jim Rice induction. He was feared. Is that the new prerequisite for induction? If that's the case...roll out the red carpet for Kingman, George Foster, and Dave Parker. All pre-roid era stars that will never get in.
Was Tony Gwynn "feared"...was Ozzie Smith "feared"?
Stat accumulator? What do you think the Hall of Fame is? >>
Ozzie Smith is not a HoFer, and is by far the weakest hitting player in the hall. You want to talk about a one trick pony, all he had was doing backflips. Tony Gwynn? You better believe he was feared, and he could actually hit (unlike Smith).
Sorry, but McGwire's numbers are so far ahead of any of those guys (Kingman, Foster, Parker) it's not even funny. He was a beast - anyone suggesting otherwise simply doesn't possess the ability to understand the game. But go on, keep fighting the good fight (in your head) as if keeping important guys like McGwire, Clemens, and Bonds out of the hall is somehow doing a service to the game and its history, and isn't anything more than a pathetically veiled attempt to hide an entire era. An era which YOU and everyone who was a baseball fan cheered for. YOU cheered in 1998 and Sosa and McGwire brought baseball back from the void. YOU cheered along with Maris' family when McGwire broke the record. YOU cheered the entire summer as Sosa and McGwire battled for the HR lead. If YOU say you didn't, then YOU are lying. >>
So dramatic.....such poetry. Brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it all.
That HR race did not bring true fans "back" to baseball...because they never left. It was a nice national story that ESPN could lap up...and casual fans could digest and get behind. That was the type of story that interested my girlfriend at the time. And I swear....I'm not lying. Anymore than I was excited to see Bonds break that oafs HR record a few years after. I remember dopes here in Detroit going to batting practice for the first time EVER when McGwire and the Cardinals came to town for interleague play. I'm sure they'll be bouncing their grandkids on their knees years from now...telling them about that magical summer of 1998. Gross.
I'm not comparing Biggio to Rose. That's what we call a joke, or sarcasm. I'll put it in different font next time so you recognize it.
<< <i>YOU and everyone who was a baseball fan cheered for. YOU cheered in 1998 and Sosa and McGwire brought baseball back from the void. YOU cheered along with Maris' family when McGwire broke the record. YOU cheered the entire summer as Sosa and McGwire battled for the HR lead. If YOU say you didn't, then YOU are lying. >> >>
I also cheered for Lance Armstrong and Joe Paterno............how did that work out.
<< <i> dramatic.....such poetry. Brings a tear to my just thinking about it all. >>
It wasn't meant to be dramatic or poetry, but to each his own.
<< <i>That HR race did not bring true fans "back" to baseball...because they never left. >>
Who said anything about 'true' fans or 'casual' fans? But to sit there and suggest that baseball attendance, or national prominence, or ratings had not take a massive hit due to the strike and cancelled world series is revisionist history, and completely devoid of anything resembling truth.
<< <i> It was a nice national story that ESPN could lap up...and casual fans could digest and get behind. That was the type of story that interested my girlfriend at the time. And I swear....I'm not lying. Anymore than I was excited to see Bonds break that oafs HR record a few years after. I remember dopes here in Detroit going to batting practice for the first time EVER when McGwire and the Cardinals came to town for interleague play. I'm sure they'll be bouncing their grandkids on their knees years from now...telling them about that magical summer of 1998. Gross. >>
You think it was just ESPN who was covering this story? Are you nuts? Forgetful? The media coverage on this race was EVERYWHERE, and yes, I mean EVERYWHERE. The Summer of 1998 WAS magical. It saved baseball. I don't care one iota that you want to try to change history and suggest otherwise, but without that chase, baseball is not where it is today in terms of popularity.
"Sept. 8, 1998, was the rare moment when everyone was watching. The Mark McGwire-Sammy Sosa home run chase had dominated the conversation for six months, giving baseball the national spotlight it hadn't had since the 1994 strike and arguably hasn't had since, at least in a positive way. It's easy to forget how crazy the country got about the home run chase back in 1998. McGwire was a phenomenon all season, wherever he went. Jerry Seinfeld visited him in New York, Dan Marino in Florida, Duchess Sarah Ferguson at Wrigley Field. ("He's my favorite redhead," she said, carrying a bat that McGwire had autographed.) President Clinton, in the depths of Monicagate, referenced him, and the fact that he grew up a Cardinals fan, at every opportunity. David Letterman pitched to him on 57th Street. The craziest was batting practice: Not only would fans line up to fill the stadium two hours early just to watch McGwire take BP, in Colorado, a local affiliate actually aired his batting practice live on broadcast television. It was the highest-rated show of the week. People loved McGwire."
Sitting there and suggesting that only ESPN covered this story, and trying to gloss over the massive, national (and international) impact the HR chase of 1998 had is disingenuous at best and completely ignorant of baseball history at worst. It's what people who want to feign outrage over the thought of their heroes from the past (who simply took other performance enhancing substances) having their records bested by players taking different substances.
<< <i>I'm not comparing Biggio to Rose. That's what we call a joke, or sarcasm. I'll put it in different font next time to you recognize it. >>
No, you were comparing them, suggesting that Rose was an accumulator like Biggio was, just like you tried (and failed) to compare McGwire to Kingman and Parker.
<< <i>
<< <i>YOU and everyone who was a baseball fan cheered for. YOU cheered in 1998 and Sosa and McGwire brought baseball back from the void. YOU cheered along with Maris' family when McGwire broke the record. YOU cheered the entire summer as Sosa and McGwire battled for the HR lead. If YOU say you didn't, then YOU are lying. >> >>
I also cheered for Lance Armstrong and Joe Paterno............how did that work out.
So you want to compare guys who push their bodies to the absolute limit with someone who aided a pedophile? You, sir, are a vile person indeed. Talk about disgusting, that is you in a word. Disgusting.
<< <i>So you want to compare guys who push their bodies to the absolute limit with someone who aided a pedophile? You, sir, are a vile person indeed. Talk about disgusting, that is you in a word. Disgusting. >>
No, but I would certainly group grown men who push drugs onto children in the same category as pedophiles. McGwire should be in prison, not the Hall.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Cheating has no place in professional sports. Once the integrity is gone, it takes a long, long time to get it back.
<< <i>
<< <i>So you want to compare guys who push their bodies to the absolute limit with someone who aided a pedophile? You, sir, are a vile person indeed. Talk about disgusting, that is you in a word. Disgusting. >>
No, but I would certainly group grown men who push drugs onto children in the same category as pedophiles. McGwire should be in prison, not the Hall. >>
Should be in prison? What drugs did McGwire 'push' onto children? I can't wait to hear this nonsense!
<< <i>Once again, the point has been missed. I was cheering for Sosa and McGwire along with many others. The debate that year was whether the ball was juiced "remember that 1985fan? Fact was, the ball was fine, it was the players that were juiced.
Cheating has no place in professional sports. Once the integrity is gone, it takes a long, long time to get it back. >>
But alas, they didn't cheat, so your entire argument is void (not that that is surprising). But keep spinning, at some point you'll say something rational, the whole saying about a broken clock being right twice a day and all.
<< <i>
<< <i>No, but I would certainly group grown men who push drugs onto children in the same category as pedophiles. McGwire should be in prison, not the Hall. >>
Should be in prison? What drugs did McGwire 'push' onto children? I can't wait to hear this nonsense! >>
The percentage of teenagers who have used steroids more than doubled from 1991 to 2003 (from 2.7% to 6.1%) right when the likes of Bonds, McGwire and Sosa were crushing home runs left and right. These men made this drug popular. It would be impossible to know the amount of damage their actions have inadvertently caused, but to honor these men for their stats as a result is sickening.
On a side note, McGwire was asked by congress if he played the game with integrity; McGwire couldn't answer. Why should he be inducted into anything? I would hope that the Baseball Hall of Fame would enshire men who can at least hold their head high when asked about their career.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>
<< <i>Once again, the point has been missed. I was cheering for Sosa and McGwire along with many others. The debate that year was whether the ball was juiced "remember that 1985fan? Fact was, the ball was fine, it was the players that were juiced.
Cheating has no place in professional sports. Once the integrity is gone, it takes a long, long time to get it back. >>
But alas, they didn't cheat, so your entire argument is void (not that that is surprising). But keep spinning, at some point you'll say something rational, the whole saying about a broken clock being right twice a day and all. >>
Oh yes, I am sure that Bonds had a prescription for the clear.
On original post; I really am confused when poster supports players who cheated, yet seems to be against managers who may or may not have known about their players using. A-roid should be in, but none of his managers that did nothing to stop his use, should NOT be allowed in? REALLY?
By the way, anyone who hasn't read Canseco's book hasn't read the ONLY information written by a baseball player about how (and why) he used. He did not do it in front of the manager or other players.
Secondly, the Hall of Fame is not the Hall of Statistical Achievements, if that's what you want start it up, put your 100 or so guys in and then lock the doors. The one we have now is fine, not perfect, but good enough.
To say that the Hall of Fame is meaningless is simply a stupid, ignorant, UNTRUE comment. Should a few not be in, that are in? Yes. Should a few not in, be in? Yes.
<< <i>How about we compromise and induct McGwire with his online pharmacist and Clemens with his personal trainer McNamee? >>
They should have a wing in the museum dedicated to "Game-Used" Syringes. We would really be ignoring the history of the game if we didn't.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
There's so much awesomeness...the acid washed with the belt...no sleeves..."going, going, gone"...like his HOF chances.
As for him being a stat accumulator? Typical myopic barb from you. The guy loved and respected the game of baseball, and the game of baseball (especially in Houston) loved and respected him back. He revered the game so much that his skills naturally eroded and his 5'11", 185-lb frame hardly (if at all) deviated over the course of two decades. Stellar play with squeaky clean longevity.....what a novel concept. I myself have great admiration for players who choose that course, and it's those types I deem Hall worthy if the numerical stars align. But you? Extolling players who are a complete disgrace to the game is what sends a thrill up your leg. In your severely warped mind, expunging the virtues of baseball is acceptable just so long as you save it.
When the road bifurcated in his late 30s, I'm very thankful that Biggio chose the path that didn't include duping an entire fan base and artificially knocking the sh*t out of the Minute Maid train with regularity.
<< <i>Another surreal thread. There's absolutely no rhyme or reason when it comes to a 1985fan rant. It's almost as if you flip a coin, take a wild stance and hang on for dear life just for the sake of argument. With as much progressive fervor as you brought to the table in regard to the Redskins topic, one would think you'd fight just as hard to demand real change and prevent the name of baseball from being sullied even further. Nah. That would make far too much sense. Instead, you'd rather toss all of the reprobates into the sport's sanctuary and omit a quintessential HoFer like Biggio. Heaven forbid you appreciate a guy who played an entire 20-year career for the same franchise, has never once had his name linked to PEDs AND has the numbers to back it up.
As for him being a stat accumulator? Typical myopic barb from you. The guy loved and respected the game of baseball, and the game of baseball (especially in Houston) loved and respected him back. He revered the game so much that his skills naturally eroded and his 5'11", 185-lb frame hardly (if at all) deviated over the course of two decades. Stellar play with squeaky clean longevity.....what a novel concept. I myself have great admiration for players who choose that course, and it's those types I deem Hall worthy if the numerical stars align. But you? Extolling players who are a complete disgrace to the game is what sends a thrill up your leg. In your severely warped mind, expunging the virtues of baseball is acceptable just so long as you save it.
When the road bifurcated in his late 30s, I'm very thankful that Biggio chose the path that didn't include duping an entire fan base and artificially knocking the sh*t out of the Minute Maid train with regularity. >>
I absolutely agree with your thoughts here on Biggio, but calling any steroid user a 'complete disgrace to the game' seems, at least to me, to verge on hyperbole.
Shameful.
100
<< <i>Stellar play with squeaky clean longevity.....what a novel concept. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Stellar play with squeaky clean longevity.....what a novel concept. >>
I thought this was the baseball hall of fame not the boy scouts. Biggio is right up there with ozzie Smith as most undeserving HOF member of all time.