<< <i>That said, it's the Hall of FAME, not the "Hall of Statistics Only" or the "Hall of Guys I Think Should Be There".
I don't think that known PED users should be rewarded for taking shortcuts (Bonds is a prime example imo). >>
On that note, it also isn't the Hall-of-Not Taking Shortcuts
And if anything, by using drugs, Bonds is taking a much longer road into the Hall-of-Fame. If he didn't use drugs he would have already made it in >>
A related point: Steroids don't reward people who are lazy- they reward people who are willing to work very, very hard. Say what one will about guys like Clemens, Bonds, and even guys like Lance Armstrong, but one thing you can't take away from them is their unflagging pursuit of physical excellence.
That said, I'm not sure where I stand on the HOF debate; but I do think the issue is far more complicated than most people assume.
<< <i>That said, it's the Hall of FAME, not the "Hall of Statistics Only" or the "Hall of Guys I Think Should Be There".
I don't think that known PED users should be rewarded for taking shortcuts (Bonds is a prime example imo). >>
On that note, it also isn't the Hall-of-Not Taking Shortcuts
And if anything, by using drugs, Bonds is taking a much longer road into the Hall-of-Fame. If he didn't use drugs he would have already made it in >>
Do you believe, like others obviously do, that PEDs like steroids is some kind of 'easy button'? If it was a shortcut to excellence EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE would take them.
<< <i> As to LaRussa... I think he should get in for his managerial success unless someone can prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that he knew about and ignored all PED use during his tenure... >>
Either he was complicit in the steroid use, or he was completely oblivious as to what was going on in multiple locker rooms under his watch. Which would you presume to be the case here? >>
What I presume is innocent until proven guilty. You have an interesting double standard here, especially for someone who's always crying "show proof" on various threads; in your view the guys who obviously did the drugs are somehow getting shafted yet a manager who wasn't complicit should be immediately excluded from the Hall. Trainers? Sure, they could and likely did know who was juicing because they have a lot more daily interactions with virtually every team member...but I think it is plausible that a manager who is just one guy juggling a lot of balls at a given time may not conceivably know what is going on with all members of a given team at all times. Plus, those who were using PEDs weren't exactly doing it out in plain sight. So like I said, show me some evidence of La Russa's complicity or put a sock in it.
<<Do you believe, like others obviously do, that PEDs like steroids is some kind of 'easy button'? If it was a shortcut to excellence EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE would take them.>>
And you know this as fact because...? Yeah. Didn't think so.
The reality (based on medical evidence and many tragic stories over the years, and not just in baseball) is that PEDs ARE a shortcut that is tantamount to making a deal with the devil; with their use you will be at or near the top of your game for a few years... until your body starts failing due to the extra strain placed on it. Some guys are willing to take the risk, but more aren't, especially those who have seen friends and colleagues turned into orthopedic wrecks or worse, dead or dying. You want a good case study? Look at pro wrestling.
<< <i>The reality (based on medical evidence and many tragic stories over the years, and not just in baseball) is that PEDs ARE a shortcut that is tantamount to making a deal with the devil; with their use you will be at or near the top of your game for a few years... until your body starts failing due to the extra strain placed on it. Some guys are willing to take the risk, but more aren't, especially those who have seen friends and colleagues turned into orthopedic wrecks or worse, dead or dying. You want a good case study? Look at pro wrestling. >>
Good point!
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<< <i> What I presume is innocent until proven guilty. You have an interesting double standard here, especially for someone who's always crying "show proof" on various threads; in your view the guys who obviously did the drugs are somehow getting shafted yet a manager who wasn't complicit should be immediately excluded from the Hall. Trainers? Sure, they could and likely did know who was juicing because they have a lot more daily interactions with virtually every team member...but I think it is plausible that a manager who is just one guy juggling a lot of balls at a given time may not conceivably know what is going on with all members of a given team at all times. Plus, those who were using PEDs weren't exactly doing it out in plain sight. So like I said, show me some evidence of La Russa's complicity or put a sock in it. >>
Either LaRussa is the most obvlious manager in the history of the game, or he knew exactly what was going on (like everyone in every clubhouse) and decided to look the other way. If you honestly believe that he (and other managers) didn't know exactly what was going on, you might be the most naive person I've ever met.
<< <i> And you know this as fact because...? Yeah. Didn't think so.
The reality (based on medical evidence and many tragic stories over the years, and not just in baseball) is that PEDs ARE a shortcut that is tantamount to making a deal with the devil; with their use you will be at or near the top of your game for a few years... until your body starts failing due to the extra strain placed on it. Some guys are willing to take the risk, but more aren't, especially those who have seen friends and colleagues turned into orthopedic wrecks or worse, dead or dying. You want a good case study? Look at pro wrestling. >>
Look at pro wrestling, and compare the scripted preconceived event to baseball? That's hilariously out of touch and as ridiculous an analogy as possible. PEDs like steroids only work if you're willing to put in the effort to continue to work out - McGwire and Bonds are widely known as two of the most dedicated gym rats baseball has ever known. LaRussa's public defense against the Mac PED allegations were that he was always in the gym - which is the ONLY way PEDs like steroids will be effective.
Give me a break. You want to believe the rich players are the devil while managers are the angels, and you couldn't be more in the dark.
The fact that pro wrestling's scripted has nothing to do with the issue. It is totally analogous to baseball; in both cases you have guys on the roster who are highly competitive and worried that someone else who's younger, stronger, and/or more talented is going to take their place in the lineup if they don't perform well... so they decide to take a (very dangerous) gamble to try to stay at the top. And if you don't think that fat contracts played any part in that decision as well, then it is you my friend who are naïve.
Back to Tony... once again show me evidence (not your opinion or generalizations like "he HAD to know") that he definitely knew about juicing under his watch and did nothing, and I'll gladly concede that he doesn't merit induction. As far as hanging in the gym, virtually all pro athletes I'm aware of spend a ton of time in the gym... so how do you separate the wheat from the chaff? I'm not naïve enough to think he didn't SUSPECT some guys were using, but again, suspicion and proof are different things. Plus he's trying to run a team with constant pressure from ownership so it's not like he didn't have his own situations to deal with. And again, these guys weren't exactly doing it in front of him so it's not like he could really do anything outside of enforcing any wellness policies that the team had in place at the time.
I will say this... if Tony doesn't get in based on your contentions, then by default none of the juicing players can get in either; that's axiomatic... nor can any other managers of that era who had known users on their rosters.
Side note... funny how you like to target STL guys a lot (Ozzie, Tony, etc.). Card hater much?
<< <i>The fact that pro wrestling's scripted has nothing to do with the issue. It is totally analogous to baseball; in both cases you have guys on the roster who are highly competitive and worried that someone else who's younger, stronger, and/or more talented is going to take their place in the lineup if they don't perform well... so they decide to take a (very dangerous) gamble to try to stay at the top. And if you don't think that fat contracts played any part in that decision as well, then it is you my friend who are naïve. >>
The results of the wrestling matches are predetermined - their taking steroids has NO affect on the outcome. The fact that you continue to press this issue seems curious at best and wildly overreaching and flat out ignorant at worst.
<< <i>Back to Tony... once again show me evidence (not your opinion or generalizations like "he HAD to know") that he definitely knew about juicing under his watch and did nothing, and I'll gladly concede that he doesn't merit induction. >>
So if he didn't know what was happening in his own locker room, under his nose, is somehow...better? This paints him as a doddering fool sleeping in his office completely unaware and ignorant of his own clubhouse, which hardly paints a flattering picture.
<< <i> As far as hanging in the gym, virtually all pro athletes I'm aware of spend a ton of time in the gym... so how do you separate the wheat from the chaff? >>
No, they don't. And they certainly do not hang in the gym like Mac and Bonds did.
<< <i> I'm not naïve enough to think he didn't SUSPECT some guys were using, but again, suspicion and proof are different things. Plus he's trying to run a team with constant pressure from ownership so it's not like he didn't have his own situations to deal with. And again, these guys weren't exactly doing it in front of him so it's not like he could really do anything outside of enforcing any wellness policies that the team had in place at the time. >>
It's cute how you continue to paint LaRussa as somehow innocent in this whole mess, when he (a) repeatedly defended Mac and the allegations against him, (b) brought Mac in to be on the staff in St. Louis despite the rampant and widespread accusations against him, and (c) winked and nodded repeatedly about Canseco's use.
<< <i>I will say this... if Tony doesn't get in based on your contentions, then by default none of the juicing players can get in either; that's axiomatic... nor can any other managers of that era who had known users on their rosters. >>
You're missing my point. If you're going to elect LaRussa based on what he did as a manager of PED using players, then you HAVE to elect the players who carried him to all those wins and world series. Period. They have to go hand in hand.
<< <i>Side note... funny how you like to target STL guys a lot (Ozzie, Tony, etc.). Card hater much? >>
Ozzie Smith is the single most overrated hall of famer ever, and LaRussa will ALWAYS be known as the manager of the A's first. But it's cute how you cardinal fans feel so persecuted. Cute!
The results of the wrestling matches are predetermined - their taking steroids has NO affect on the outcome.
Sorry. I forgot that reading comprehension obviously isn't your strong suit- unless someone's agreeing with you, that is.
Nowhere did I say it had any effect on the outcome of the matches. Sigh.
What I said is that in wrestling as in baseball, there are guys wanting to keep their spot in the lineup... in wrestling that means keeping your slot as the top face or top heel, staying on the televised shows and tour circuit rather than being stuck in the "minors"...an independent or developmental fed making gas money... and ascending from the undercard and midcard level to the top tier, which means a LOT more money. And there are more stories than you can count of guys who juiced (and in some cases paid a huge price- can you say Chris Benoit?) to help achieve that goal.
<< <i>And you know this as fact because...? Yeah. Didn't think so.
The reality (based on medical evidence and many tragic stories over the years, and not just in baseball) is that PEDs ARE a shortcut that is tantamount to making a deal with the devil; with their use you will be at or near the top of your game for a few years... until your body starts failing due to the extra strain placed on it. Some guys are willing to take the risk, but more aren't, especially those who have seen friends and colleagues turned into orthopedic wrecks or worse, dead or dying. You want a good case study? Look at pro wrestling. >>
An entire generation of baseball players used drugs. Almost 30 years later they are providing a very good case study of drug users not turning into dead and dying orthopedic wrecks
Isn't there also a huge difference in side effects based on which drug is used and the dose? Or are all drugs that enhance performance in any way all exactly the same?
I can't even believe I am responding to the goofy notion of equating PED use in wrestling with that in baseball.
I'll spell it out for those in the cheap seats:
THEY ARE NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME.
That being said, you're missing the point entirely. The point is if you're going to punish players for taking PEDs, then you must punish the managers who oversaw these same players, who remained silent when PED use was obvious and apparent, and put aside what their teams did on the backs of these same PED users. It's the height of hypocrisy to hold up LaRussa's managerial accomplishments while at the same time putting down McGwire and all the other PED users who helped carry LaRussa's teams. There is literally no way possibly LaRussa didn't know what was going on in his clubhouse, and literally no way that he wasn't aware of what Mac was using to suddenly hit 70 home runs.
But since you are an unabashed Cardinal apologist, there is no way possible for you to acknowledge this as fact.
<< <i>I can't even believe I am responding to the goofy notion of equating PED use in wrestling with that in baseball.
I'll spell it out for those in the cheap seats:
THEY ARE NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME.
That being said, you're missing the point entirely. The point is if you're going to punish players for taking PEDs, then you must punish the managers who oversaw these same players, who remained silent when PED use was obvious and apparent, and put aside what their teams did on the backs of these same PED users. It's the height of hypocrisy to hold up LaRussa's managerial accomplishments while at the same time putting down McGwire and all the other PED users who helped carry LaRussa's teams. There is literally no way possibly LaRussa didn't know what was going on in his clubhouse, and literally no way that he wasn't aware of what Mac was using to suddenly hit 70 home runs.
But since you are an unabashed Cardinal apologist, there is no way possible for you to acknowledge this as fact. >>
If I were a true Cardinal apologist I'd be claiming that McGwire never used PEDs and should be in the Hall. Didn't say that though, did I?
Like I've said (twice) before... show me proof La Russa knew (not just suspected, but actually knew) of PED use and purposely did nothing and/or that he somehow violated rules regarding PEDs and I'm on board with him not being in the Hall.
As to the analogy with pro wrestling... insofar as the reasoning behind taking PEDs goes, it's accurate and you know it... but I know it hurts to admit you got schooled. Wait until I actually start trying.
<< <i>Jose Canseco said that Tony knew they were using. Supposedly Tony even joked about it. >>
Of course they did, because LaRussa, like all competent managers, know EVERYTHING that's going on in their locker rooms. For someone like telephoto to sit there and suggest LaRussa was ignorant of what was happening is proof positive some guys have NO clue how a MLB team is run, yet runs their mouth like they do.
Interesting point. I can't believe I hadn't thought this through before.
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<< <i>I got schooled by someone making an idiotic and foolish argument? That's cute.
LaRussa knew what was happening and ignored it-you choosing to ignore that doesn't mean he didn't know. >>
I'm ignoring nothing. All I'm saying is... to you and all other La Russa haters...show me some tangible proof he knew and did nothing and I'll be right there with you saying he doesn't deserve the Hall. You're telling everyone how obvious it is... so if that's true, showing proof should be easy for someone with your acumen. So be my guest.
As to the hearsay from Canseco...when someone's trying to sell books and make appearance fees it tends to diminish their objectivity and credibility just a tad IMO.
Edit to add...as to the "running one's mouth as if they know something" comment.... huge pot, meet tiny kettle.
<< <i> I'm ignoring nothing. All I'm saying is... to you and all other La Russa haters...show me some tangible proof he knew and did nothing and I'll be right there with you saying he doesn't deserve the Hall. >>
So if you're going to sit there and believe he didn't know, you're calling him an ignorant fool who doesn't know what's happening in his own locker room. It's impossible to be so dense as to believe this is true.
<< <i>You're telling everyone how obvious it is... so if that's true, showing proof should be easy for someone with your acumen. So be my guest. >>
A manager knows everything happening in his locker room, either through his own eyes or his staff.
<< <i>As to the hearsay from Canseco...when someone's trying to sell books and make appearance fees it tends to diminish their objectivity and credibility just a tad IMO. >>
So we're still on the bashing Canseco because he was selling a book? How many things in that book have turned out to be false? Oh that's right, none.
A manager knows everything happening in his locker room, either through his own eyes or his staff.
...and you know this with absolute certainty, that every manager knows every possible thing happening with every member of his team at all times, regardless of where said team members are or when... because?
<< <i>As to the hearsay from Canseco...when someone's trying to sell books and make appearance fees it tends to diminish their objectivity and credibility just a tad IMO. >>
In general, yes, that's true. However, in the case of Canseco, he's been 100% credible regarding his books and his claims. Not a single claim has been shown to be false and every guy he named has been shown to be guilty of PED use. If he says LaRussa knew, then LaRussa knew. Supposedly Tony even joked about it though I haven't been able to verify it.
<< <i>A manager knows everything happening in his locker room, either through his own eyes or his staff.
...and you know this with absolute certainty, that every manager knows every possible thing happening with every member of his team at all times, regardless of where said team members are or when... because?
You're going to sit there and suggest that a MLB manager doesn't know what's going on in his locker room, especially something this big? You can't possibly be that locked in denial, can you?
As far as 'everything, all the time', certainly not, but to sit there and suggest LaRussa didn't know his players were juicing is the height of willful ignorance. LaRussa knew - just like every other player in the locker room knew who was taking what.
This has nothing to do with ignorance or denial. I'm hardly some mindless fanboy who thinks certain guys can do no wrong. I simply want to see some tangible proof...not hearsay, speculation or biased opinions. Show me proof and I'll be right there with you saying he doesn't belong in the HOF.
So if you'd don't believe he knew what was going on then you have to believe LaRussa is completely ignorant of the most important things happening in the locker room.
<< <i>So if you'd don't believe he knew what was going on then you have to believe LaRussa is completely ignorant of the most important things happening in the locker room. >>
Tony LaRussa started managing Canseco and McGwire in 1987. It is quite possible he knew about their drug use shortly after that. If he did, it's most likely other managers in the league did to. Soon a lot of players would start to figure out what was going on. A couple dozen of those players would eventually make the Hall-of-Fame. Knowledge of drug use and actual drug use is far different in any part of life. When it comes to making the Hall-of-Fame, it has been a major part. Greg Maddux is going to make the Hall-of-Fame this year, Roger Clemens will not. One of them actually used drugs, the other merely knew drug use was going on.
We could say LaRussa benefitted by having players who used drugs. But those drugs did not make him a better manager. McGwire and Canseco were able to hit the ball farther. LaRussa did not make better managerial decisions because of that.
We could say LaRussa benefitted by having players who used drugs. But those drugs did not make him a better manager. McGwire and Canseco were able to hit the ball farther. LaRussa did not make better managerial decisions because of that.
Precisely. That's why he is deserving of the HOF imo. Whether he merely suspected, knew or didn't know-something never proven to this point- his managerial ability has never been called into question... and based on that standard he should be a lock imo.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>One of the biggest opponents to voting in any PED user for the hall is in agreement with me:
>>
Murray Chass has been wrong on virtually every other issue for the Hall-of-Fame selection, so why would this one be any different? >>
Simply showing that even someone as stalwart and stuck in the past as Murray Chass is waking up to this point of view.
<< <i>That said, it's the Hall of FAME, not the "Hall of Statistics Only" or the "Hall of Guys I Think Should Be There".
I don't think that known PED users should be rewarded for taking shortcuts (Bonds is a prime example imo). >>
On that note, it also isn't the Hall-of-Not Taking Shortcuts
And if anything, by using drugs, Bonds is taking a much longer road into the Hall-of-Fame. If he didn't use drugs he would have already made it in
<< <i>
<< <i>That said, it's the Hall of FAME, not the "Hall of Statistics Only" or the "Hall of Guys I Think Should Be There".
I don't think that known PED users should be rewarded for taking shortcuts (Bonds is a prime example imo). >>
On that note, it also isn't the Hall-of-Not Taking Shortcuts
And if anything, by using drugs, Bonds is taking a much longer road into the Hall-of-Fame. If he didn't use drugs he would have already made it in >>
A related point: Steroids don't reward people who are lazy- they reward people who are willing to work very, very hard. Say what one will about guys like Clemens, Bonds, and even guys like Lance Armstrong, but one thing you can't take away from them is their unflagging pursuit of physical excellence.
That said, I'm not sure where I stand on the HOF debate; but I do think the issue is far more complicated than most people assume.
<< <i>
<< <i>That said, it's the Hall of FAME, not the "Hall of Statistics Only" or the "Hall of Guys I Think Should Be There".
I don't think that known PED users should be rewarded for taking shortcuts (Bonds is a prime example imo). >>
On that note, it also isn't the Hall-of-Not Taking Shortcuts
And if anything, by using drugs, Bonds is taking a much longer road into the Hall-of-Fame. If he didn't use drugs he would have already made it in >>
Do you believe, like others obviously do, that PEDs like steroids is some kind of 'easy button'? If it was a shortcut to excellence EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE would take them.
<< <i>
<< <i>
As to LaRussa... I think he should get in for his managerial success unless someone can prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that he knew about and ignored all PED use during his tenure... >>
Either he was complicit in the steroid use, or he was completely oblivious as to what was going on in multiple locker rooms under his watch. Which would you presume to be the case here? >>
What I presume is innocent until proven guilty. You have an interesting double standard here, especially for someone who's always crying "show proof" on various threads; in your view the guys who obviously did the drugs are somehow getting shafted yet a manager who wasn't complicit should be immediately excluded from the Hall. Trainers? Sure, they could and likely did know who was juicing because they have a lot more daily interactions with virtually every team member...but I think it is plausible that a manager who is just one guy juggling a lot of balls at a given time may not conceivably know what is going on with all members of a given team at all times. Plus, those who were using PEDs weren't exactly doing it out in plain sight. So like I said, show me some evidence of La Russa's complicity or put a sock in it.
<<Do you believe, like others obviously do, that PEDs like steroids is some kind of 'easy button'? If it was a shortcut to excellence EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE would take them.>>
And you know this as fact because...? Yeah. Didn't think so.
The reality (based on medical evidence and many tragic stories over the years, and not just in baseball) is that PEDs ARE a shortcut that is tantamount to making a deal with the devil; with their use you will be at or near the top of your game for a few years... until your body starts failing due to the extra strain placed on it. Some guys are willing to take the risk, but more aren't, especially those who have seen friends and colleagues turned into orthopedic wrecks or worse, dead or dying. You want a good case study? Look at pro wrestling.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The reality (based on medical evidence and many tragic stories over the years, and not just in baseball) is that PEDs ARE a shortcut that is tantamount to making a deal with the devil; with their use you will be at or near the top of your game for a few years... until your body starts failing due to the extra strain placed on it. Some guys are willing to take the risk, but more aren't, especially those who have seen friends and colleagues turned into orthopedic wrecks or worse, dead or dying. You want a good case study? Look at pro wrestling. >>
Good point!
<< <i>
What I presume is innocent until proven guilty. You have an interesting double standard here, especially for someone who's always crying "show proof" on various threads; in your view the guys who obviously did the drugs are somehow getting shafted yet a manager who wasn't complicit should be immediately excluded from the Hall. Trainers? Sure, they could and likely did know who was juicing because they have a lot more daily interactions with virtually every team member...but I think it is plausible that a manager who is just one guy juggling a lot of balls at a given time may not conceivably know what is going on with all members of a given team at all times. Plus, those who were using PEDs weren't exactly doing it out in plain sight. So like I said, show me some evidence of La Russa's complicity or put a sock in it. >>
Either LaRussa is the most obvlious manager in the history of the game, or he knew exactly what was going on (like everyone in every clubhouse) and decided to look the other way. If you honestly believe that he (and other managers) didn't know exactly what was going on, you might be the most naive person I've ever met.
<< <i>
And you know this as fact because...? Yeah. Didn't think so.
The reality (based on medical evidence and many tragic stories over the years, and not just in baseball) is that PEDs ARE a shortcut that is tantamount to making a deal with the devil; with their use you will be at or near the top of your game for a few years... until your body starts failing due to the extra strain placed on it. Some guys are willing to take the risk, but more aren't, especially those who have seen friends and colleagues turned into orthopedic wrecks or worse, dead or dying. You want a good case study? Look at pro
wrestling. >>
Look at pro wrestling, and compare the scripted preconceived event to baseball? That's hilariously out of touch and as ridiculous an analogy as possible. PEDs like steroids only work if you're willing to put in the effort to continue to work out - McGwire and Bonds are widely known as two of the most dedicated gym rats baseball has ever known. LaRussa's public defense against the Mac PED allegations were that he was always in the gym - which is the ONLY way PEDs like steroids will be effective.
Give me a break. You want to believe the rich players are the devil while managers are the angels, and you couldn't be more in the dark.
Back to Tony... once again show me evidence (not your opinion or generalizations like "he HAD to know") that he definitely knew about juicing under his watch and did nothing, and I'll gladly concede that he doesn't merit induction. As far as hanging in the gym, virtually all pro athletes I'm aware of spend a ton of time in the gym... so how do you separate the wheat from the chaff? I'm not naïve enough to think he didn't SUSPECT some guys were using, but again, suspicion and proof are different things. Plus he's trying to run a team with constant pressure from ownership so it's not like he didn't have his own situations to deal with. And again, these guys weren't exactly doing it in front of him so it's not like he could really do anything outside of enforcing any wellness policies that the team had in place at the time.
I will say this... if Tony doesn't get in based on your contentions, then by default none of the juicing players can get in either; that's axiomatic... nor can any other managers of that era who had known users on their rosters.
Side note... funny how you like to target STL guys a lot (Ozzie, Tony, etc.). Card hater much?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>The fact that pro wrestling's scripted has nothing to do with the issue. It is totally analogous to baseball; in both cases you have guys on the roster who are highly competitive and worried that someone else who's younger, stronger, and/or more talented is going to take their place in the lineup if they don't perform well... so they decide to take a (very dangerous) gamble to try to stay at the top. And if you don't think that fat contracts played any part in that decision as well, then it is you my friend who are naïve. >>
The results of the wrestling matches are predetermined - their taking steroids has NO affect on the outcome. The fact that you continue to press this issue seems curious at best and wildly overreaching and flat out ignorant at worst.
<< <i>Back to Tony... once again show me evidence (not your opinion or generalizations like "he HAD to know") that he definitely knew about juicing under his watch and did nothing, and I'll gladly concede that he doesn't merit induction. >>
So if he didn't know what was happening in his own locker room, under his nose, is somehow...better? This paints him as a doddering fool sleeping in his office completely unaware and ignorant of his own clubhouse, which hardly paints a flattering picture.
<< <i> As far as hanging in the gym, virtually all pro athletes I'm aware of spend a ton of time in the gym... so how do you separate the wheat from the chaff? >>
No, they don't. And they certainly do not hang in the gym like Mac and Bonds did.
<< <i> I'm not naïve enough to think he didn't SUSPECT some guys were using, but again, suspicion and proof are different things. Plus he's trying to run a team with constant pressure from ownership so it's not like he didn't have his own situations to deal with. And again, these guys weren't exactly doing it in front of him so it's not like he could really do anything outside of enforcing any wellness policies that the team had in place at the time. >>
It's cute how you continue to paint LaRussa as somehow innocent in this whole mess, when he (a) repeatedly defended Mac and the allegations against him, (b) brought Mac in to be on the staff in St. Louis despite the rampant and widespread accusations against him, and (c) winked and nodded repeatedly about Canseco's use.
<< <i>I will say this... if Tony doesn't get in based on your contentions, then by default none of the juicing players can get in either; that's axiomatic... nor can any other managers of that era who had known users on their rosters. >>
You're missing my point. If you're going to elect LaRussa based on what he did as a manager of PED using players, then you HAVE to elect the players who carried him to all those wins and world series. Period. They have to go hand in hand.
<< <i>Side note... funny how you like to target STL guys a lot (Ozzie, Tony, etc.). Card hater much? >>
Ozzie Smith is the single most overrated hall of famer ever, and LaRussa will ALWAYS be known as the manager of the A's first. But it's cute how you cardinal fans feel so persecuted. Cute!
The results of the wrestling matches are predetermined - their taking steroids has NO affect on the outcome.
Sorry. I forgot that reading comprehension obviously isn't your strong suit- unless someone's agreeing with you, that is.
Nowhere did I say it had any effect on the outcome of the matches. Sigh.
What I said is that in wrestling as in baseball, there are guys wanting to keep their spot in the lineup... in wrestling that means keeping your slot as the top face or top heel, staying on the televised shows and tour circuit rather than being stuck in the "minors"...an independent or developmental fed making gas money... and ascending from the undercard and midcard level to the top tier, which means a LOT more money. And there are more stories than you can count of guys who juiced (and in some cases paid a huge price- can you say Chris Benoit?) to help achieve that goal.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>And you know this as fact because...? Yeah. Didn't think so.
The reality (based on medical evidence and many tragic stories over the years, and not just in baseball) is that PEDs ARE a shortcut that is tantamount to making a deal with the devil; with their use you will be at or near the top of your game for a few years... until your body starts failing due to the extra strain placed on it. Some guys are willing to take the risk, but more aren't, especially those who have seen friends and colleagues turned into orthopedic wrecks or worse, dead or dying. You want a good case study? Look at pro wrestling. >>
An entire generation of baseball players used drugs. Almost 30 years later they are providing a very good case study of drug users not turning into dead and dying orthopedic wrecks
Isn't there also a huge difference in side effects based on which drug is used and the dose? Or are all drugs that enhance performance in any way all exactly the same?
I'll spell it out for those in the cheap seats:
THEY ARE NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME.
That being said, you're missing the point entirely. The point is if you're going to punish players for taking PEDs, then you must punish the managers who oversaw these same players, who remained silent when PED use was obvious and apparent, and put aside what their teams did on the backs of these same PED users. It's the height of hypocrisy to hold up LaRussa's managerial accomplishments while at the same time putting down McGwire and all the other PED users who helped carry LaRussa's teams. There is literally no way possibly LaRussa didn't know what was going on in his clubhouse, and literally no way that he wasn't aware of what Mac was using to suddenly hit 70 home runs.
But since you are an unabashed Cardinal apologist, there is no way possible for you to acknowledge this as fact.
<< <i>I can't even believe I am responding to the goofy notion of equating PED use in wrestling with that in baseball.
I'll spell it out for those in the cheap seats:
THEY ARE NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME.
That being said, you're missing the point entirely. The point is if you're going to punish players for taking PEDs, then you must punish the managers who oversaw these same players, who remained silent when PED use was obvious and apparent, and put aside what their teams did on the backs of these same PED users. It's the height of hypocrisy to hold up LaRussa's managerial accomplishments while at the same time putting down McGwire and all the other PED users who helped carry LaRussa's teams. There is literally no way possibly LaRussa didn't know what was going on in his clubhouse, and literally no way that he wasn't aware of what Mac was using to suddenly hit 70 home runs.
But since you are an unabashed Cardinal apologist, there is no way possible for you to acknowledge this as fact. >>
If I were a true Cardinal apologist I'd be claiming that McGwire never used PEDs and should be in the Hall. Didn't say that though, did I?
Like I've said (twice) before... show me proof La Russa knew (not just suspected, but actually knew) of PED use and purposely did nothing and/or that he somehow violated rules regarding PEDs and I'm on board with him not being in the Hall.
As to the analogy with pro wrestling... insofar as the reasoning behind taking PEDs goes, it's accurate and you know it... but I know it hurts to admit you got schooled. Wait until I actually start trying.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
LaRussa knew what was happening and ignored it-you choosing to ignore that doesn't mean he didn't know.
<< <i>Jose Canseco said that Tony knew they were using. Supposedly Tony even joked about it. >>
Of course they did, because LaRussa, like all competent managers, know EVERYTHING that's going on in their locker rooms. For someone like telephoto to sit there and suggest LaRussa was ignorant of what was happening is proof positive some guys have NO clue how a MLB team is run, yet runs their mouth like they do.
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
<< <i>I got schooled by someone making an idiotic and foolish argument? That's cute.
LaRussa knew what was happening and ignored it-you choosing to ignore that doesn't mean he didn't know. >>
I'm ignoring nothing. All I'm saying is... to you and all other La Russa haters...show me some tangible proof he knew and did nothing and I'll be right there with you saying he doesn't deserve the Hall.
You're telling everyone how obvious it is... so if that's true, showing proof should be easy for someone with your acumen. So be my guest.
As to the hearsay from Canseco...when someone's trying to sell books and make appearance fees it tends to diminish their objectivity and credibility just a tad IMO.
Edit to add...as to the "running one's mouth as if they know something" comment.... huge pot, meet tiny kettle.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
I'm ignoring nothing. All I'm saying is... to you and all other La Russa haters...show me some tangible proof he knew and did nothing and I'll be right there with you saying he doesn't deserve the Hall. >>
So if you're going to sit there and believe he didn't know, you're calling him an ignorant fool who doesn't know what's happening in his own locker room. It's impossible to be so dense as to believe this is true.
<< <i>You're telling everyone how obvious it is... so if that's true, showing proof should be easy for someone with your acumen. So be my guest. >>
A manager knows everything happening in his locker room, either through his own eyes or his staff.
<< <i>As to the hearsay from Canseco...when someone's trying to sell books and make appearance fees it tends to diminish their objectivity and credibility just a tad IMO. >>
So we're still on the bashing Canseco because he was selling a book? How many things in that book have turned out to be false? Oh that's right, none.
...and you know this with absolute certainty, that every manager knows every possible thing happening with every member of his team at all times, regardless of where said team members are or when... because?
Oh, wait, don't tell me...because "everyone knows that". *Snicker*
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>As to the hearsay from Canseco...when someone's trying to sell books and make appearance fees it tends to diminish their objectivity and credibility just a tad IMO.
>>
In general, yes, that's true. However, in the case of Canseco, he's been 100% credible regarding his books and his claims. Not a single claim has been shown to be false and every guy he named has been shown to be guilty of PED use. If he says LaRussa knew, then LaRussa knew. Supposedly Tony even joked about it though I haven't been able to verify it.
<< <i>A manager knows everything happening in his locker room, either through his own eyes or his staff.
...and you know this with absolute certainty, that every manager knows every possible thing happening with every member of his team at all times, regardless of where said team members are or when... because?
Oh, wait, don't tell me...because "everyone knows that". *Snicker* >>
You're going to sit there and suggest that a MLB manager doesn't know what's going on in his locker room, especially something this big? You can't possibly be that locked in denial, can you?
As far as 'everything, all the time', certainly not, but to sit there and suggest LaRussa didn't know his players were juicing is the height of willful ignorance. LaRussa knew - just like every other player in the locker room knew who was taking what.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>So if you'd don't believe he knew what was going on then you have to believe LaRussa is completely ignorant of the most important things happening in the locker room. >>
Tony LaRussa started managing Canseco and McGwire in 1987. It is quite possible he knew about their drug use shortly after that. If he did, it's most likely other managers in the league did to. Soon a lot of players would start to figure out what was going on. A couple dozen of those players would eventually make the Hall-of-Fame. Knowledge of drug use and actual drug use is far different in any part of life. When it comes to making the Hall-of-Fame, it has been a major part. Greg Maddux is going to make the Hall-of-Fame this year, Roger Clemens will not. One of them actually used drugs, the other merely knew drug use was going on.
We could say LaRussa benefitted by having players who used drugs. But those drugs did not make him a better manager. McGwire and Canseco were able to hit the ball farther. LaRussa did not make better managerial decisions because of that.
Precisely. That's why he is deserving of the HOF imo. Whether he merely suspected, knew or didn't know-something never proven to this point- his managerial ability has never been called into question... and based on that standard he should be a lock imo.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012