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Cano to Seattle?
1985fan
Posts: 1,952 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
Reports have an offer of 10 years, and between $220-$250 million. Cano is in Seattle tonight, and has agency representation with him (Jay Z is in tow as well).
I love this. Actually having my team be in the hunt of big-time, front-line free agents instead of picking up scraps off the pile is so amazing. I believe Cano is a Mariner before the night is done.
Wow.
I love this. Actually having my team be in the hunt of big-time, front-line free agents instead of picking up scraps off the pile is so amazing. I believe Cano is a Mariner before the night is done.
Wow.
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Mike
(Texas Rangers fan)
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
As for the Yankees, it depends how they spend the money they saved not signing him.
The Mariners had to do something, and THIS something is FAR better than the phat cash NYY gave Ellsbury. Not sure what other kind of vet bat they can get it, but the discussion now turns to David Price
Who's going to be the next captain, face of the franchise, after Jeter?
I thought Cano was the heir apparent.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I can't wait for Price to be out of the AL East. Seattle is fine, but I'd prefer the Dodgers.
10 year deal to a guy that's 31 (from the Dominican, could be 35)? How many of his HRs in Yankee Stadium are going to be fly ball outs in Seattle? How many more of these huge guaranteed contracts will have to be disastrous before teams learn anything? Has no one in Seattle paid attention to the A's payroll? Seattle just committed 3 times as much money to one player than they committed to the entire roster last season.
Not that any of this matters. Won't be able to put it into perspective for about a decade.
<< <i>Those average out to $246 million, which is... pretty much exactly what Cano got. >>
.........and I here there is no income tax in Washington. Bonus!
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
<< <i>Cano is a naturalized citizen >>
So is Alphonso Soriano.
<< <i>
<< <i>Cano is a naturalized citizen >>
So is Alphonso Soriano. >>
The implication here is you think he's older than 37?
<< <i>Good news for Yankee fans. Now they can use that money and spend it on what they really need....pitching. >>
Is there anyone out there WORTH spending on? Or because of the weak market, will NYY be paying too much for pitching next?
That's a looooong contract for a 31 yr old, but fairly 'par for the course' these days. Amazing.
Go M's! Sorry Yanks!
Dave
<< <i>The Mariners had to do something >>
Last time I said something like that, we signed Carlos Lee.
As for the other stuff....ugh. It's always been a mess in Seattle, I NEVER knew about all of that stuff. They have no clue- from being openly opposed to a new basketball arena earlier in the year, and now this. How do they expect people to come watch that mess after enjoying a season of the Seahawks? Winning will get people in the seats I suppose.....
<< <i>And if McClendon connects with this roster and everything clicks? They finish 5 over .500....still want him gone? >>
Yes, because he's not a MLB caliber manager and has proven he's unable to manage a roster.
Oh and cnote the only thing hopeless here is you. Maybe someday you'll realize the difference between results and process but I doubt it. Before I go I'll ask you was McLendon even in your top five with list? I didn't think so.
The idea that he had some legacy that could only be extended in new York is silly and arrogant. Players switch teams all the time and have no trouble with their legacies. Cano can do the same thing.
<< <i>And to think that a legacy of being a premier player for life with the Yankees isn't a premium in the eyes of history shows ignorance on your part, but I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume you're just being disingenuous. >>
Do you know how much Cano cares about how history will see him? Or is that something only he knows and the rest of us are ignorant about?
For many athletes, a paycheck is just another scoreboard. The stuff you can buy with $100 million might not be any different than what you can buy with $200 million, but to some, earning the title of highest paid player is different than not being the highest paid. Kobe Bryant somehow coerced the Lakers into making sure he exceeded the previous highest salaries over the next two years by a very small margin. I doubt that happened accidentally. No one else seems to doubt it was coincidence Cano was pushing for $252 million -- exactly the same as Rodriguez -- then settled for $240 million -- exactly the same as Pujols
<< <i>
There are plenty of athletes, especially when taking extensions into account. However, just to show the most obvious examples, how about the trio in Miami?
>>
What about them? You realize with no state income tax Lebron is actually making more money than he would have in Cleveland. Plenty of athletes, yet you can only come up with one? How about you do it in baseball, where there's no salary cap to speak of. In the NFL and NBA, there's a certain level that players can make and that's it. In baseball, I doubt you'll have much luck finding premium players who took less money to stay with a team.
<< <i>And to think that a legacy of being a premier player for life with the Yankees isn't a premium in the eyes of history shows ignorance on your part, but I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume you're just being disingenuous. >>
Ignorance? Why, because I'm not blinded by the facade of the Yankee 'mystique'? Where was this bile when the Yankees were luring players away in their prime? When Tex, or Sabathia, or Ellsbury, or Beltran, or any of countless other players took insane money to play with the Yankees, that's ok, but for a player to go away from NY, suddenly that's blasphemy? You can't have your cake and eat it too. This is a BUSINESS first and foremost, and each and every player owes it to themselves and their family to get the max money no matter what. Yankee fans are just insulted that their team is no longer the only one that can write these types of checks.
Dustin Pedroia. Based on the Ellsbury and Cano contracts, it seems he could have easily commanded $20m per season. He "settled" for $15m.
<< <i><<<And what athlete has ever signed for less money?>>>
Dustin Pedroia. Based on the Ellsbury and Cano contracts, it seems he could have easily commanded $20m per season. He "settled" for $15m. >>
Easily? When he signed that contract, it made him baseball's highest paid second baseman. If he was really committed to staying in Boston, he would have 'settled' on his existing $10 million salary, and not gotten a 50% raise. But to sit there and suggest someone is going to give Pedroia, who is a very good player, $20 million when he's topped 20 HRs exactly once is laughable. Cano is an appreciably better hitter and was rewarded as such.
<< <i><<<And what athlete has ever signed for less money?>>>
Dustin Pedroia. Based on the Ellsbury and Cano contracts, it seems he could have easily commanded $20m per season. He "settled" for $15m. >>
Exactly. How much does one really need to be successful in life. By the looks of things after the WS - he has a great looking family - financially set for life - his kids will never have to struggle w/ money (as long as they don't do anything stupid). If the player is happy where they are at and the $$ they are earning - what does it really matter how big the number is - as long as you are happy with it!!
<< <i>
No one is suggesting that it is okay or not okay. It's their decision. No one is disputing that. I'm not sure what you're talking about with Tex, or CC or whatever. You're going off on an irrelevant tangent. >>
I'm saying that no one in NY was raising a stink when it was the Yankees flashing money and signing players away from their teams. But when it happens to the Yankees, suddenly there's 'loyalty' that is owed to the team. I'm not sure how that one way street works.
<< <i> No one owes it to themselves to get max money. They do what they want to do. So your comments are entirely clueless. >>
Really? No one does? So if a competing employer came along and offered you 50% more money to do the same exact job, but in a different location, you'd tell them no? Of course you wouldn't. The idea that players are beholden to their team and should sign for less money is ludicrous. We ALL want to make max money.
<< <i> And I think most people agree that Cano would have stayed for less in New York, along with the tax issue which have been significant in dollars. >>
Why didn't he then? Oh that's right, another team offered him more money, and he, like all sane human beings, took it.
<< <i> The Yankees have never been the only team that could write these types of checks so once again your comments are completely clueless. We're talking about legacies, not whether Yankee fans care about whether Cano left of not. I'll say this yet again, for the money, I'm GLAD he's gone. I'd MUCH RATHER deploy $25M elsewhere than on Cano. >>
Legacies are a figment of a fan's imagination. If Cano goes to Seattle and continues his great hitting, being the durable, all around star that he is, his 'legacy' isn't going to suffer at all. Suggesting as much proves you're the one who is clueless. And you'd rather spend $25 million on McCann and Ellsbury, two guys who probably won't be able to play 120 games this year? Makes sense.
<< <i>But one would have to be living in a cave to not understand the added value of being a Yankee. You think Derek Jeter would be anywhere near the icon he is today if he played for the Marlins, even with the two World Series championships they won during his career? He has the most endorsements. His Jersey has sold the most. THAT is the difference. THAT is why his cards sell for an INSANE amount of money. Look at what Mattingly cards bring and he'll never be inducted into the Hall as a player. Relatively to the year of issue, scarcity, etc., his cards take a back seat to virtually no one from the 1980s. Once again, that would CLEARLY not be the case were he not a Yankee. >>
Cano has played in NY for a number of years and has proven that he doesn't care about endorsements. As far as card sales goes, you think Mattingly cares? You think Cano is worried about what his rookie card is going to sell for in 20 years? You bring up all these things that are a figment of a FAN'S imagination. They have NOTHING to do with legacy. You think that David Ortiz's legacy is tarnished for having signed in Boston after playing in Minnesota? You think Barry Bonds' legacy was tarnished signing from Pittsburgh to SF and taking (then) the biggest contract in history? What about Manny Ramirez? The list goes on and on of players who bolted teams to take more money elsewhere, and their 'legacies' turned out just fine.
No, what this is about is Yankee fans being insulted that the team wasn't enough to keep Cano around at a significant discount of what he was worth on the open market. The one player the Yankees should have broken the bank for (young, durable, irreplaceable) is the one they went cheap on. Instead, the Yankees loaded up on more older and injury-prone players. The same players that led them to miss the playoffs this year. The same players that have led the Yankees down a downward spiral. And Yankee fans think Cano 'owes' it to them to sign for millions and millions less, and hold up the 'Legacy!' card as if it actually means something.
Look, we get it, the Yankees have been by far the most successful baseball team in history. They've achieved this through financial might - they've always been able to offer the most money to players, and their geographical advantage has served them well. But now? That table has more than one place setting. Local TV revenue is going through the roof, and team after team is now able to play big ball money. This is the first time I can remember a high end, desirable player has turned his back on the Yankees to go to another team, and that's driving Yankee fans nuts. Driving them to say irrational things like 'I'm glad he's gone!' He was responsible for nearly 20% of the team's home run totals, and offensive WAR numbers has him at 6.8, the second closest? Gardner at 3.5 (who is on the trading block).
So sit there in mock disgust that Cano 'dared' to take $65 million more to go to Seattle. Sit there and think that the only legacy that's worth having is one played entirely in pinstripes. Sit there and make yourself believe the Yankees are better off without him. Those of us with an objective take realize that Cano did what any one of us would do, and his 'legacy' isn't going to suffer one bit.
<< <i>
<< <i><<<And what athlete has ever signed for less money?>>>
Dustin Pedroia. Based on the Ellsbury and Cano contracts, it seems he could have easily commanded $20m per season. He "settled" for $15m. >>
Exactly. How much does one really need to be successful in life. By the looks of things after the WS - he has a great looking family - financially set for life - his kids will never have to struggle w/ money (as long as they don't do anything stupid). If the player is happy where they are at and the $$ they are earning - what does it really matter how big the number is - as long as you are happy with it!! >>
So you would turn down $65 million? Of course you wouldn't, nobody would, and if anyone says they would they're lying.
Umm....the Yankees just gave Ellsbury $22m per, and he's only topped 10 HR's (!) once.
<< <i><<<But to sit there and suggest someone is going to give Pedroia, who is a very good player, $20 million when he's topped 20 HRs exactly once is laughable.>>>
Umm....the Yankees just gave Ellsbury $22m per, and he's only topped 10 HR's (!) once. >>
32 HRs. And his OPS last year was .846, Pedroia was .587. There is no comparison in their power numbers
<< <i>
You can't really be that clueless. If Cano doesn't care about endorsements, why sign with Jay-Z when he already had a superagent who has proven himself better than anyone else in getting the most money for his clients.
>>
So you can either be represented by Boras or one of the most popular music figures in the world. You do the math. You may not be able to relate to this, but artists like Jay Z hold immense sway. If you don't think Cano was stoked to have Jay Z represented him, you might be a little out of touch with pop culture.
<< <i>Card prices are a reflection of a player's popularity based on the legacy they leave behind. And yes, I think they care. I don't think they dwell on the issue but no player wants to think that he cards aren't wanted. >>
We're too close to the topic, but I would have to think that card popularity is probably around 1,000,000 on their list of things to care about.
<< <i>As for the crazy notion that I am insulted or whatever, I have posts in this forum all day long going back over a year saying that I don't even want to pay Cano $120M. Second baseman break down in their early 30s and break down hard. I've said time and time again. >>
Cano has proven himself to be ultra durable, and far more durable than Ellsbury. If you have a problem paying Cano $120M you must be going out of your mind over the Ellsbury deal.
<< <i>Going from Minnesota to Boston is a SERIOUS improvement from a legacy standpoint. It's also a VERY weak example because Ortiz hadn't even built a legacy AT ALL in Minnesota. >>
Why? When he did, Minnesota had been far more successful far more recently than Boston had. It had been decades since Boston had won a title, and Minnesota had recently won two.
<< <i>And after that entire diatribe of your's, you managed to say the one thing that we can all agree on and which was my explicit point from the get go:
"the Yankees have been by far the most successful baseball team in history."
And with that comes a certain prestige for those who have prominently been associated with that "most successful team in history". >>
Of course it does, but to sit there and suggest the only legacy that's worth having is a Yankee one is the height of arrogance and the very attitude that so many fans outside NY HATE about Yankee fans.
<< <i>
No one is suggesting that the only legacy worth having is to be a Yankee. But for someone who had already invested the best years of his career with them, it makes all the sense in the world. >>
Agree 100%. From my perspective, this deal ensures that nobody outside of Seattle will give a damn about Cano five years after he retires. The list of baseball players who have maintained a high level of fan appreciation (on a national level) after switching teams and making a cash grab in their '30's seems to me like a very short one.
<< <i>Why would a music figure hold sway over a baseball player in free agency matters? I think you are out of touch with reality to think that a grown man is going to act like a giggling teenage girl. However, if anyone would, Cano probably would.
>>
Jay Z is an icon. If you disagree it's you who's out of touch.
<< <i>Once again, because you seem to have a difficult time connecting very simple dots, card prices are a direct reflection of the legacy and popularity of players. They may not care that much about card prices, but I'm quite comfortable in stating that they all care immensely about legacy. >>
And I'll say it again for those in the cheap seats: if Cano ends up with 3k hits and 400 hrs he'll rightfully be considered as one of the greatest hitters of all time. His legacy will be secure and it won't have come in NY.
<< <i>The Red Sox have always been more popular than the Twins. When Ortiz was with the Twins, they hadn't won in like over a decade. But my original point is that he hadn't done squat there anyhow.
A lot of second baseman have proven themselves durable until about 32-33 or so when they start breaking down and their numbers plummet for good.
The Ellsbury deal makes sense because the Yanks need players and since Cano didn't seem to want to sign, they needed to fill the roster with high caliber players and they don't have anyone near ready in the farm system.
No one is suggesting that the only legacy worth having is to be a Yankee. But for someone who had already invested the best years of his career with them, it makes all the sense in the world. It's what his father wanted for him and I've no doubt based on following him his whole career that he wanted it too, and badly. He just let machismo and momentary hurt feelings get in the way. >>
He did what any sane rational person would have done and taken the additional 65M dollars. Anyone who's saying they wouldn't have is either a fool, a liar, or both.
<< <i>The list of baseball players who have maintained a high level of fan appreciation (on a national level) after switching teams and making a cash grab in their '30's seems to me like a very short one. >>
That's only because so few players maintain a high level of appreciation after they are no longer playing as great as they once were, regardless of how much cash they grab or if the uniform changes. Appreciation for Pujols outside of St Louis wouldn't be any higher if he stayed. The only reason why it's dropped is because he isn't hitting as well. How much do people appreciate Chas Utley for taking a discount to stay in Philadelphia now that he he's been hurt every year since signing that contract?
Among players from previous decades, Ryan, Henderson, Maddux (made the cash grab in his 20s, but his legacy was already nearly as long as Cano's) and Griffey are as well appreciated (on a national level) as anyone
If Cano plays at a truly great level, he will be highly appreciated like those players. If he doesn't come close to living up to the contract no one will care much about him. Which is probably a better deal than New York, where far more people will be more deeply disgusted by him once his performance declines
<< <i>I'm not sure how destitute you must be to be fixated on money time and time again. If it were $60M and $125M, I could understand. But $175M, along with 3 more potential earning years, along with the more lucrative endorsement and auto signing opportunities FOR LIFE bridges that gap substantially if not entirely. As for Jay-Z, by your logic, he can take over every high caliber free agent because he is such an icon. Keep telling yourself that. >>
3 more potential years? Why make them a 'maybe' when he's 38 and turn them into 'for sures' when he's 30? What endorsement deals has he been privy to so far? What fantastic marketing has he been made a part of under Boras and in NY? Oh wait, what's that? Hardly any? Auto signing opportunities? You can't be that full of yourself as a Yankee fan can you? You think that 3 more years as a 38 year old + signing opportunities is going to make up $65 million? Yeah, YOU keep telling yourself that. And if you can't possibly grasp the power an icon like Jay Z has and the endless cross-marketing opportunities which exist then you should probably stop talking now. Jay Z offers his clients something that no other agent possibly can.
<< <i>Regardless of whether Cano has a Hall of Famer career or not, his legacy would have been immensely more improved had he been a Yankee lifer than to have gone to Seattle. "Any sane rational person" would understand this. >>
Ken Griffey sure seemed to enjoy a Hall of Fame caliber career in Seattle. There's no reason whatsoever to think that Cano won't be able to do the same. Throw in the absence of a media that is 24/7 gunning to take down players and a fanbase devoid of anything resembling rational thought, and it's not a surprise Cano took Seattle. Oh, by the way, Seattle has it's fair share of marketing opportunities as well. You do realize NY doesn't have a stranglehold on ALL marketing, right?
<< <i>
<< <i>The list of baseball players who have maintained a high level of fan appreciation (on a national level) after switching teams and making a cash grab in their '30's seems to me like a very short one. >>
That's only because so few players maintain a high level of appreciation after they are no longer playing as great as they once were, regardless of how much cash they grab or if the uniform changes. Appreciation for Pujols outside of St Louis wouldn't be any higher if he stayed. The only reason why it's dropped is because he isn't hitting as well. How much do people appreciate Chas Utley for taking a discount to stay in Philadelphia now that he he's been hurt every year since signing that contract?
Among players from previous decades, Ryan, Henderson, Maddux (made the cash grab in his 20s, but his legacy was already nearly as long as Cano's) and Griffey are as well appreciated (on a national level) as anyone
If Cano plays at a truly great level, he will be highly appreciated like those players. If he doesn't come close to living up to the contract no one will care much about him. Which is probably a better deal than New York, where far more people will be more deeply disgusted by him once his performance declines >>
I disagree. Obviously this is a subjective analysis, but I don't believe that baseball players who change teams while a) already having established themselves as superstars, and b) at the height of their physical abilities, are as appreciated by the neutral fan as those who do not. As for Henderson and Ryan, I'm not sure this argument holds sway with players from 30+ years ago (there are plenty of others from that time, including Rose, Winfield, Reggie, etc., who maintained a high national profile after changing teams). As for Maddux, he was in no way a 'star' when he left Chicago. Yes, he had just won the Cy Young; however, he only had five (six?) full years in the majors, and only two A.S. appearances.
Why the change? My guess is because baseball players occupied a cultural space thirty years ago that they simply do not occupy anymore. Individual ballplayers were often revered- warts and all- by the fans who watched them. Fast forward thirty years, after a succession of labor strikes and PED scandals, as well as an escalation of wages to a level that most Americans find simply incomprehensible, and we have (I think) seen a gradual shift in how fans find value in baseball. They are not as interested anymore in the individual players as they are in the teams they represent, which means that the fans' interest in and admiration for any given ballplayers is far more tenuous than it was in bygone eras.
This hypothesis isn't really testable (which, upon reflection, I see means that it really isn't a hypothesis), but I think it's illustrative to look at the baseball players in the past twenty years who have consistently kept fans' attention and respect; in other words, those who seem to have some kind of 'legacy'. Very few of the names on that list belong to players who jumped ship for more money at the height of their physical powers.