And, the best part of all of this (now that we bring of Jr), is that he would NEVER play for the Yankees- no matter what "riches" and "fame" (as said by Yankees' fans) would have come from playing there.
You continue to both underestimate the earning potential of the Pacific Northwest and overvalue NYs influence. Six figure paydays? So let's assume 400 autos at 250 = 100k. He'd have to do 650 (!!!) signings and not do any whi a Marine to make up the difference.
But let's call this what it is: you think any team not the Yankees is a joke and beneath them. You can't grasp the idea tat someone onus mother city/team more appealing so you're grasping at straws to make sense of it. You can't sit there bashing this deal without bashing the Ellsbury deal even more. But because Ellsbury signed with the Yanks and not the Mariners you're cool with it.
The more Yankee fans and the idiotic ny press bashes this deal the more I love it. Suck it, Yankees.
That Yankee brand gets worth less and less each and every year as more clubs spend north of 125 million and the Yankees continue to drift further and further from contention. Facts are facts and those are the facts.
First off, it wouldn't just be signings. I'm sure there are large regional businesses that he could pitch for during and after his playing days. >>
Why would a guy who's making $175 million do this? He wouldn't, plain and simple. How many autograph signings is Jeter doing? He's the most popular Yankee of the current era and I doubt he's doing much more than a handful of appearances (if he does any at all). Why would you? I wouldn't.
<< <i>I don't think any team is a joke. You obviously have serious insecurity issues about the team you root for. He didn't leave because he wanted to live in Seattle or play for the Mariners. He left, as you've repeatedly stated, for the money, as well as the banner advertising of saying, "This is the contract I signed." That's all fine for near term satisfaction but will all be forgotten years from now. I would normally hate the Ellsbury signing and have stated that I don't like the deal in a bubble but it makes sense for the Yankees. What are they gonna do, field .600 OPS minor leaguers??? Even for Seattle, I'm not remotely bashing them but stating that they made a bad decision. The Yankees have made PLENTY of bad decisions. So what? I'm not even bashing Cano. I'm saying I think he made a mistake and in time will regret his decision. >>
Ellsbury posted a .567 OPS last year, so how exactly is than an upgrade? And they're paying him major money and giving it someone who's oft injured. If you're going to bash the Cano signing, the Ellsbury signing makes even less sense.
<< <i>Yet your seething insecurities are forcing you to take this personally for some odd reason and you relegate yourself, as usual, to attacking the Yankees and their fans because you have nothing intellectual to say, as usual. You ask why I should feel bad for Cano? Because he was a member of the team I like and I have some vested interested in what's best for him. The better question would be why you should care so much about my opinions??? Probably because you KNOW that everything I'm saying is the TRUTH. >>
<< <i>Cano would do pitches because he likes being in the limelight, not necessarily for the money. For the same reason that he loves home run derbys, he likes getting attention. If he didn't feel slighted or underpaid, I'm convinced he do those things for free. And anyhow, since everyone is SO HUNG up on money according to you, why wouldn't he do it if it adds more MONEY to his pockets? >>
Wait, you're the one suggesting he would do them. How many is he doing now, if he's so in need of attention?
<< <i>Do you even know what OPS is? I thought your comment on Pedroia was just a typo but now you are completely misstating Ellsbury's numbers. >>
My mistake, I got Pedroia and Ellsbury mixed up. Yes, his .781 is definitely an upgrade, but how long is he going to be able to play for? 100 games?
<< <i>An opinion can very well be the truth. Some people have the opinion that Trout was the best player this year. Some have the opinion that Cabrera and others might feel another player was. One of those opinions is the TRUTH. Can't believe you don't understand simple logic like this, but I can't say I'm surprised either. >>
No, those opinions cannot be truth, if there's more than one answer. Are you serious right now? You've deviated so far from the original premise it's not even funny, but given the delusion that you and most Yankee fans seem to thrive upon I can't say I'm suprised.
Cano's 'legacy' will not be negatively impacted if he continues his career path and puts up numbers in Seattle. If he ends up (as he's projected) with over 3000 hits and 400 or more home runs, he'll be a first ballot hall of famer, and yes, Virginia, HoF players can actually come from teams outside NY.
Forget it. Sitting there suggesting the opinion of who's the best player is fact or truth is decision beyond approach. But then coming from a Yankee fan who thinks the only legacy worth having is one in pinstripes I'm not surprised. Enjoy the old, tried and expensive team that will be trotting out there next year. I expect the Yankees to miss the playoffs again and I'm not alone.
There are plenty of athletes, especially when taking extensions into account. However, just to show the most obvious examples, how about the trio in Miami? >>
What about them? You realize with no state income tax Lebron is actually making more money than he would have in Cleveland. Plenty of athletes, yet you can only come up with one? How about you do it in baseball, where there's no salary cap to speak of. In the NFL and NBA, there's a certain level that players can make and that's it. In baseball, I doubt you'll have much luck finding premium players who took less money to stay with a team.
<< <i>And to think that a legacy of being a premier player for life with the Yankees isn't a premium in the eyes of history shows ignorance on your part, but I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume you're just being disingenuous. >>
Ignorance? Why, because I'm not blinded by the facade of the Yankee 'mystique'? Where was this bile when the Yankees were luring players away in their prime? When Tex, or Sabathia, or Ellsbury, or Beltran, or any of countless other players took insane money to play with the Yankees, that's ok, but for a player to go away from NY, suddenly that's blasphemy? You can't have your cake and eat it too. This is a BUSINESS first and foremost, and each and every player owes it to themselves and their family to get the max money no matter what. Yankee fans are just insulted that their team is no longer the only one that can write these types of checks. >>
I think you're way out of line here. The NYY are the most prestigious team in all of MLB, and certainly the team with the most global appeal. You can despise them, but it is what it is.
Leaving the Yankees to go to Seattle would be like leaving Real Madrid in order to cash a check at Paris St. Germain or Manchester City. There's a strong argument for doing so, and you'll definitely die wealthier if you choose that route, but your legacy won't have nearly the traction that it would if you would have stayed with the bigger team.
<< <i>The list of baseball players who have maintained a high level of fan appreciation (on a national level) after switching teams and making a cash grab in their '30's seems to me like a very short one. >>
That's only because so few players maintain a high level of appreciation after they are no longer playing as great as they once were, regardless of how much cash they grab or if the uniform changes. Appreciation for Pujols outside of St Louis wouldn't be any higher if he stayed. The only reason why it's dropped is because he isn't hitting as well. How much do people appreciate Chas Utley for taking a discount to stay in Philadelphia now that he he's been hurt every year since signing that contract?
Among players from previous decades, Ryan, Henderson, Maddux (made the cash grab in his 20s, but his legacy was already nearly as long as Cano's) and Griffey are as well appreciated (on a national level) as anyone
If Cano plays at a truly great level, he will be highly appreciated like those players. If he doesn't come close to living up to the contract no one will care much about him. Which is probably a better deal than New York, where far more people will be more deeply disgusted by him once his performance declines >>
I disagree. Obviously this is a subjective analysis, but I don't believe that baseball players who change teams while a) already having established themselves as superstars, and b) at the height of their physical abilities, are as appreciated by the neutral fan as those who do not. As for Henderson and Ryan, I'm not sure this argument holds sway with players from 30+ years ago (there are plenty of others from that time, including Rose, Winfield, Reggie, etc., who maintained a high national profile after changing teams). As for Maddux, he was in no way a 'star' when he left Chicago. Yes, he had just won the Cy Young; however, he only had five (six?) full years in the majors, and only two A.S. appearances.
Why the change? My guess is because baseball players occupied a cultural space thirty years ago that they simply do not occupy anymore. Individual ballplayers were often revered- warts and all- by the fans who watched them. Fast forward thirty years, after a succession of labor strikes and PED scandals, as well as an escalation of wages to a level that most Americans find simply incomprehensible, and we have (I think) seen a gradual shift in how fans find value in baseball. They are not as interested anymore in the individual players as they are in the teams they represent, which means that the fans' interest in and admiration for any given ballplayers is far more tenuous than it was in bygone eras.
This hypothesis isn't really testable (which, upon reflection, I see means that it really isn't a hypothesis), but I think it's illustrative to look at the baseball players in the past twenty years who have consistently kept fans' attention and respect; in other words, those who seem to have some kind of 'legacy'. Very few of the names on that list belong to players who jumped ship for more money at the height of their physical powers. >>
that's largely true, but I think the key factor here is the complete regionalization of MLB in the Regional Sports Network era. Factor in the comically long MLB season and a lot of these players seem to have no real interest in building their own brands. There was a recent article in the Pitt Post Gazette detailing all the endorsements and appearances that Andrew McCutchen has been turning down in wake of his MVP award. I feel another part of it is there's a certain level of self-promotion that goes into landing those national deals, and like hockey, baseball kind of frowns on that...what with "The Code" and all. They're not the NBA where self promotion is about as ingrained in the culture as Gary Glitter tunes. I just don't think there are that many attention whores in MLB save for the A-rod, David Ortiz, Millar, Nyjer Morgan, and Beardy Wilson types that really concern themselves with building an independent brand away from baseball...or at the very least, away from their city. There are opportunities there. Goober Manning banked $15M from endorsements last year. Jeter cashed $9M worth of something, apparently....Nike and Gillette, I suppose. Seems like the gap should be wider when Manning is all over everything but I guess terrible pizza companies pay less than Nike and Gillette. Ichiro checks in at $6M (heavily Japan-market aided), and then no other MLBer accrued more than $2.5M in national endorsements. The salaries are so high, the season is so long, MLB's marketing machine is a total St Louis grade tire-fire, but the regional opportunities are there. I've been watching Kerry Wood hawk Chevys for years after all and he hasn't been relevant in 7 or 8 years.
<< <i>This hypothesis isn't really testable (which, upon reflection, I see means that it really isn't a hypothesis), but I think it's illustrative to look at the baseball players in the past twenty years who have consistently kept fans' attention and respect; in other words, those who seem to have some kind of 'legacy'. Very few of the names on that list belong to players who jumped ship for more money at the height of their physical powers. >>
What about players who didn't change teams, yet still failed to hold onto attention and respect. That list must be far longer than the list of players that did hold capture such a legacy. So it's a pretty small chance he achieves it either way. Losing that small chance of being held in higher regard on internet chat rooms for $10 or $20 million seems like a reasonable trade-off
<< <i>This hypothesis isn't really testable (which, upon reflection, I see means that it really isn't a hypothesis), but I think it's illustrative to look at the baseball players in the past twenty years who have consistently kept fans' attention and respect; in other words, those who seem to have some kind of 'legacy'. Very few of the names on that list belong to players who jumped ship for more money at the height of their physical powers. >>
What about players who didn't change teams, yet still failed to hold onto attention and respect. That list must be far longer than the list of players that did hold capture such a legacy. So it's a pretty small chance he achieves it either way. Losing that small chance of being held in higher regard on internet chat rooms for $10 or $20 million seems like a reasonable trade-off >>
I don't think that's a very long list at all if you're restricting your sample to players who have had HOF-worthy (or at least, very, very distinguished) careers.
Comments
And, the best part of all of this (now that we bring of Jr), is that he would NEVER play for the Yankees- no matter what "riches" and "fame" (as said by Yankees' fans) would have come from playing there.
But let's call this what it is: you think any team not the Yankees is a joke and beneath them. You can't grasp the idea tat someone onus mother city/team more appealing so you're grasping at straws to make sense of it. You can't sit there bashing this deal without bashing the Ellsbury deal even more. But because Ellsbury signed with the Yanks and not the Mariners you're cool with it.
The more Yankee fans and the idiotic ny press bashes this deal the more I love it. Suck it, Yankees.
<< <i>
First off, it wouldn't just be signings. I'm sure there are large regional businesses that he could pitch for during and after his playing days.
>>
Why would a guy who's making $175 million do this? He wouldn't, plain and simple. How many autograph signings is Jeter doing? He's the most popular Yankee of the current era and I doubt he's doing much more than a handful of appearances (if he does any at all). Why would you? I wouldn't.
<< <i>I don't think any team is a joke. You obviously have serious insecurity issues about the team you root for. He didn't leave because he wanted to live in Seattle or play for the Mariners. He left, as you've repeatedly stated, for the money, as well as the banner advertising of saying, "This is the contract I signed." That's all fine for near term satisfaction but will all be forgotten years from now. I would normally hate the Ellsbury signing and have stated that I don't like the deal in a bubble but it makes sense for the Yankees. What are they gonna do, field .600 OPS minor leaguers??? Even for Seattle, I'm not remotely bashing them but stating that they made a bad decision. The Yankees have made PLENTY of bad decisions. So what? I'm not even bashing Cano. I'm saying I think he made a mistake and in time will regret his decision. >>
Ellsbury posted a .567 OPS last year, so how exactly is than an upgrade? And they're paying him major money and giving it someone who's oft injured. If you're going to bash the Cano signing, the Ellsbury signing makes even less sense.
<< <i>Yet your seething insecurities are forcing you to take this personally for some odd reason and you relegate yourself, as usual, to attacking the Yankees and their fans because you have nothing intellectual to say, as usual. You ask why I should feel bad for Cano? Because he was a member of the team I like and I have some vested interested in what's best for him. The better question would be why you should care so much about my opinions??? Probably because you KNOW that everything I'm saying is the TRUTH. >>
How can your OPINION be the TRUTH? LOL
<< <i>Cano would do pitches because he likes being in the limelight, not necessarily for the money. For the same reason that he loves home run derbys, he likes getting attention. If he didn't feel slighted or underpaid, I'm convinced he do those things for free. And anyhow, since everyone is SO HUNG up on money according to you, why wouldn't he do it if it adds more MONEY to his pockets? >>
Wait, you're the one suggesting he would do them. How many is he doing now, if he's so in need of attention?
<< <i>Do you even know what OPS is? I thought your comment on Pedroia was just a typo but now you are completely misstating Ellsbury's numbers. >>
My mistake, I got Pedroia and Ellsbury mixed up. Yes, his .781 is definitely an upgrade, but how long is he going to be able to play for? 100 games?
<< <i>An opinion can very well be the truth. Some people have the opinion that Trout was the best player this year. Some have the opinion that Cabrera and others might feel another player was. One of those opinions is the TRUTH. Can't believe you don't understand simple logic like this, but I can't say I'm surprised either. >>
No, those opinions cannot be truth, if there's more than one answer. Are you serious right now? You've deviated so far from the original premise it's not even funny, but given the delusion that you and most Yankee fans seem to thrive upon I can't say I'm suprised.
Cano's 'legacy' will not be negatively impacted if he continues his career path and puts up numbers in Seattle. If he ends up (as he's projected) with over 3000 hits and 400 or more home runs, he'll be a first ballot hall of famer, and yes, Virginia, HoF players can actually come from teams outside NY.
<< <i>
<< <i>
There are plenty of athletes, especially when taking extensions into account. However, just to show the most obvious examples, how about the trio in Miami?
>>
What about them? You realize with no state income tax Lebron is actually making more money than he would have in Cleveland. Plenty of athletes, yet you can only come up with one? How about you do it in baseball, where there's no salary cap to speak of. In the NFL and NBA, there's a certain level that players can make and that's it. In baseball, I doubt you'll have much luck finding premium players who took less money to stay with a team.
<< <i>And to think that a legacy of being a premier player for life with the Yankees isn't a premium in the eyes of history shows ignorance on your part, but I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume you're just being disingenuous. >>
Ignorance? Why, because I'm not blinded by the facade of the Yankee 'mystique'? Where was this bile when the Yankees were luring players away in their prime? When Tex, or Sabathia, or Ellsbury, or Beltran, or any of countless other players took insane money to play with the Yankees, that's ok, but for a player to go away from NY, suddenly that's blasphemy? You can't have your cake and eat it too. This is a BUSINESS first and foremost, and each and every player owes it to themselves and their family to get the max money no matter what. Yankee fans are just insulted that their team is no longer the only one that can write these types of checks. >>
I think you're way out of line here. The NYY are the most prestigious team in all of MLB, and certainly the team with the most global appeal. You can despise them, but it is what it is.
Leaving the Yankees to go to Seattle would be like leaving Real Madrid in order to cash a check at Paris St. Germain or Manchester City. There's a strong argument for doing so, and you'll definitely die wealthier if you choose that route, but your legacy won't have nearly the traction that it would if you would have stayed with the bigger team.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The list of baseball players who have maintained a high level of fan appreciation (on a national level) after switching teams and making a cash grab in their '30's seems to me like a very short one. >>
That's only because so few players maintain a high level of appreciation after they are no longer playing as great as they once were, regardless of how much cash they grab or if the uniform changes. Appreciation for Pujols outside of St Louis wouldn't be any higher if he stayed. The only reason why it's dropped is because he isn't hitting as well. How much do people appreciate Chas Utley for taking a discount to stay in Philadelphia now that he he's been hurt every year since signing that contract?
Among players from previous decades, Ryan, Henderson, Maddux (made the cash grab in his 20s, but his legacy was already nearly as long as Cano's) and Griffey are as well appreciated (on a national level) as anyone
If Cano plays at a truly great level, he will be highly appreciated like those players. If he doesn't come close to living up to the contract no one will care much about him. Which is probably a better deal than New York, where far more people will be more deeply disgusted by him once his performance declines >>
I disagree. Obviously this is a subjective analysis, but I don't believe that baseball players who change teams while a) already having established themselves as superstars, and b) at the height of their physical abilities, are as appreciated by the neutral fan as those who do not. As for Henderson and Ryan, I'm not sure this argument holds sway with players from 30+ years ago (there are plenty of others from that time, including Rose, Winfield, Reggie, etc., who maintained a high national profile after changing teams). As for Maddux, he was in no way a 'star' when he left Chicago. Yes, he had just won the Cy Young; however, he only had five (six?) full years in the majors, and only two A.S. appearances.
Why the change? My guess is because baseball players occupied a cultural space thirty years ago that they simply do not occupy anymore. Individual ballplayers were often revered- warts and all- by the fans who watched them. Fast forward thirty years, after a succession of labor strikes and PED scandals, as well as an escalation of wages to a level that most Americans find simply incomprehensible, and we have (I think) seen a gradual shift in how fans find value in baseball. They are not as interested anymore in the individual players as they are in the teams they represent, which means that the fans' interest in and admiration for any given ballplayers is far more tenuous than it was in bygone eras.
This hypothesis isn't really testable (which, upon reflection, I see means that it really isn't a hypothesis), but I think it's illustrative to look at the baseball players in the past twenty years who have consistently kept fans' attention and respect; in other words, those who seem to have some kind of 'legacy'. Very few of the names on that list belong to players who jumped ship for more money at the height of their physical powers. >>
that's largely true, but I think the key factor here is the complete regionalization of MLB in the Regional Sports Network era. Factor in the comically long MLB season and a lot of these players seem to have no real interest in building their own brands. There was a recent article in the Pitt Post Gazette detailing all the endorsements and appearances that Andrew McCutchen has been turning down in wake of his MVP award. I feel another part of it is there's a certain level of self-promotion that goes into landing those national deals, and like hockey, baseball kind of frowns on that...what with "The Code" and all. They're not the NBA where self promotion is about as ingrained in the culture as Gary Glitter tunes. I just don't think there are that many attention whores in MLB save for the A-rod, David Ortiz, Millar, Nyjer Morgan, and Beardy Wilson types that really concern themselves with building an independent brand away from baseball...or at the very least, away from their city. There are opportunities there. Goober Manning banked $15M from endorsements last year. Jeter cashed $9M worth of something, apparently....Nike and Gillette, I suppose. Seems like the gap should be wider when Manning is all over everything but I guess terrible pizza companies pay less than Nike and Gillette. Ichiro checks in at $6M (heavily Japan-market aided), and then no other MLBer accrued more than $2.5M in national endorsements. The salaries are so high, the season is so long, MLB's marketing machine is a total St Louis grade tire-fire, but the regional opportunities are there. I've been watching Kerry Wood hawk Chevys for years after all and he hasn't been relevant in 7 or 8 years.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
<< <i>This hypothesis isn't really testable (which, upon reflection, I see means that it really isn't a hypothesis), but I think it's illustrative to look at the baseball players in the past twenty years who have consistently kept fans' attention and respect; in other words, those who seem to have some kind of 'legacy'. Very few of the names on that list belong to players who jumped ship for more money at the height of their physical powers. >>
What about players who didn't change teams, yet still failed to hold onto attention and respect. That list must be far longer than the list of players that did hold capture such a legacy. So it's a pretty small chance he achieves it either way. Losing that small chance of being held in higher regard on internet chat rooms for $10 or $20 million seems like a reasonable trade-off
<< <i>
<< <i>This hypothesis isn't really testable (which, upon reflection, I see means that it really isn't a hypothesis), but I think it's illustrative to look at the baseball players in the past twenty years who have consistently kept fans' attention and respect; in other words, those who seem to have some kind of 'legacy'. Very few of the names on that list belong to players who jumped ship for more money at the height of their physical powers. >>
What about players who didn't change teams, yet still failed to hold onto attention and respect. That list must be far longer than the list of players that did hold capture such a legacy. So it's a pretty small chance he achieves it either way. Losing that small chance of being held in higher regard on internet chat rooms for $10 or $20 million seems like a reasonable trade-off >>
I don't think that's a very long list at all if you're restricting your sample to players who have had HOF-worthy (or at least, very, very distinguished) careers.