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They say dipping isn't doctoring...
Broadstruck
Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
OMG this totally scared the bejesus out of me! 
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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there are 2 types of people out there. those that like vanilla and those that like neapolitan.
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<< <i>What does PCGS say about this coin? >>
AU58 sold for $9,775.00 including BP 5 years ago with 4 bidders.
I agree. It is frightening. Even so, I wish I could get you guys to understand that doctoring is a much more serious problem than dipping. Please read my articles. Yes, dipping is harmful.
Understanding Classic U.S. Coins and Building Excellent Coin Collections, Part 2: Dipped Coins
On many occasions, however, coins naturally retone after having been dipped.
Natural Toning, Dipping and Coin Doctoring, Part 1
The Fabulous Eric Newman Collection, part 6: Auction Results for silver U.S. Coins
The Fabulous Eric Newman Coin Collection, part 3: Draped Bust Quarters
When coins are doctored, people are deceived and/or terrible damage is done!
Defining Coin Doctoring and Dipping -- 09/08/10
The PCGS SecurePlus Program, Part 1: An Explanation
Lance.
:vomit;
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>Where's Ricko?? >>
scrambling to find the owner so he can acquire this coin?
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While I don't care for the coin as-is, it is entirely possible that it was so ugly before that the dip was an improvement.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
dipped or not, I wish I was such an advanced collector with such discriminating taste that I could look down on such a coin, and call it "ruined"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>it's in far nicer condition than any of my draped bust half dollars.
dipped or not, I wish I was such an advanced collector with such discriminating taste that I could look down on such a coin, and call it "ruined" >>
I agree, in part. For the amount of money it takes to get 'er fixed, we're talking five figures and one taco bell napkin.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
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<< <i>If dipping was considered cleaning then 80% of the coins would be bodybagged. >>
I am not saying the tpg's should go to that extent although they woul dbe justified. But maybe a white holder for dipped and a gold holder for undipped, again it is just a subjective opinion but it would be more accurate and reward the original and natural ones and thus take away a great deal of the motivation to dip that currently permeates the hobby. >>
You need to be more consistent, Alan. Either a BB for the dippers or not. We have too many different designations. I liked the old PCGS before the genuine holders were used.
Eric
<< <i>The labels can state: Original surfaces; Dipped and Retoned or Dipped and Untoned or even Properly Dipped or Improperly Dipped; Genuine w/ problem stated (instead of some number). >>
This would never happen and I don't see the need anyway. What's wrong with simply grading coins? We leave market acceptability up to the TPGs. Isn't it better to look at the coin than look at a label?
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<< <i>it's in far nicer condition than any of my draped bust half dollars.
dipped or not, I wish I was such an advanced collector with such discriminating taste that I could look down on such a coin, and call it "ruined" >>
I agree, in part. For the amount of money it takes to get 'er fixed, we're talking five figures and one taco bell napkin. >>
IMHO it isn't about the money it is about what was obviously done. A dealer most probably acquired the coin on the cheap because of what had to be dark negatively toned eye appeal and bought it to dip it inorder to make a killing when he flipped it. To me it is the principle, he is being motivated by the tpg rewarding his destructive behavior. The coin is now ruined, I don't care how great the details might be, it doesn't exist anymore to me. >>
I agree it is in way better condition than any draped bust half I own, too.
Despite it being dipped, if money were not an object, like Baley says (such an advanced collector would not be so discerning, when finding coins or parading them out here, as it were ). So in as much as looking down and being afraid of it , is concerned, I share Baley's thinking. It seems a bit pompous. But that's just feeling and I cannot go by feelings. The facts are, men of greatness have dealt with these coins long before I came on the scene and we cannot change what is or was.
On the point of "cost", Don't you think money is the key ?
It wasn't mine and it isn't mine and I'm not scared of it. A five figure coin that's been treated with the utmost care over the years was not likely mistreated, except for removal of certain residues, or undesirable toning. Again, it's not mine and I have no skin in the game as "dipping" is concerned and would probably not opt for white lustrous rather dark and purdy… even though I know eventually that may be the only way it will move for a premium in the market. So to say it isn't about the money, I would respectfully disagree.
Now what the intent was and the cost of the coin is, isn't my business and I'm not privy to any information on this, or most coins. However, as rewards are concerned, imagine HOW MUCH money it would bring if it were NOT messed with.
The Taco Bell napkin inference was a little tongue in cheek, in the event you did not understand the humor. That's from a thread which humored me greatly.
As to destructive behavior and a ruined coin, I respect your passion on that , too. I still don't know what intent anyone had with the coin, other than money. Some assertions may or may not coincide with the whole truth.
I disagree with some things and agree with others. If you want to know which ones that's easy. I do not subscribe to dipping. It's typically a big no no for me.
I still appreciate the coin except for the slide marks on the obverse and I prefer subdued luster to bright lustrous.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Dipped coins are part of the population of collectible coins. Sometimes, the market rewards dippers. As long as that is true, coins will be dipped, stripped and flipped. Collectors are only afforded the choice of which coins to buy. Sometimes I am convinced we'd be better off perfecting and publishing a less harmful restoration process than tilting at windmills. More coins might be saved.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
it is a fact that in the past it was common practice to dip/clean coins which is probably why PCGS makes the distinction between right and wrong with words like improperly and harshly.
In my experience there are many coins that develop truly ugly toning, and as such are essentially unmarketable, but even worse, will continue to degrade
unless someone conserves the coin.
This is, however, purely speculation since I have no "before" picture to reference.
Greg
<< <i>BTW I do get it, right now the original coins are coveted and typically get the highest prices since they are typically prized and rightly so even though they will be in the very same holder as an market acceptable one. >>
In Morgan Dollars the opposite is generally true. The blast white coins bring a higher price. At the higher levels, maybe at $25k and above where the more discerning buyers reside and the market is narrower, originals are more prized, but at the $100 to say $10,000 level, blast white ( often dipped) rule.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't buy it and I wouldn't want it in my collection. I'd much rather have one that looks "right", but I agree that it demonstrates considerable luster and its surfaces (flow lines, texture, frost) are probably in a decently good state of preservation. There are surely many people who wouldn't find this objectionable.
The obverse hairlines are bothersome though, and they probably weren't so visible before dipping.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>AU58 sold for $9,775.00 including BP 5 years ago with 4 bidders. >>
Too rich for my blood - this one set me back $250:
<< <i>Call me uncultured or unsophisticated, but I don't see it as horrible. I'd rather have this than an ugly, terminal, borderline environmentally damaged piece. It probably looks pretty much like they all did back in the day. >>
I think both are equally bad and I would not own either.
We are not forced to collect coins.
This is a hobby that costs money. Whether you care about the "investment potential" of each coin or not, you still have to pay for the coins you collect. I don't understand why people pay for problem coins like this one. It seems to me that some collectors think they have to settle for a problem coin because they can't afford better or because of rarity or whatever. I say save your money. There are a lot of nice coins out there to spend your money on.
If we all said no to coins like this, the hobby would be better off.
Be a coin snob. Don't settle for inferior coins.
If it was for sale at 51 cents, you would turn down this unworthy, this ruined coin?
wow.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>To be clear, the elite critics would not deign to own this coin at any price?
If it was for sale at 51 cents, you would turn down this unworthy, this ruined coin?
wow. >>
I would put my 51 cents in a jar and add to it as often as I could, saving for a coin that I liked and wanted to own.
Just because something is cheap doesn't mean it's worth the money.
You can go broke buying things that are on sale.
<< <i>Sometimes, when people express concern for "the hobby", I suspect what they really mean is, "My coins of interest and their values" >>
When I express concern for "the hobby", what I really mean is "the hobby".
I'd like a hobby in which dipping / doctoring wasn't so prevalent...and so universally accepted.
There are other things about the hobby that I'd like to change...and they have nothing at all to do with the coins that I collect.
Coins have been "cleaned" since coins have been made.
Whether it is the kid in 1800 rubbing the dirt off the early cent he just dropped in the mud to the early coin club members
in the mid 1800"s who sat around by candle light comparing their coin collections. Bet a few coins were "touched" back then.
I'm with Baley on this one.
Crack that coin out of the plastic it is in and let it breath air again.
That will be a desirable collector coin long after we are all dust.
<< <i>Where's Ricko?? >>
scrambling to find the owner so he can acquire this coin?
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While I am not trying to acquire this coin, I am not 'repulsed' by it either.....each collector is entitled to acquire that which pleases his/her individual tastes...and other collectors may approve or disapprove a coin, but beyond that, it is none of their business what a collector likes - or dislikes. This is a hobby (OK, for some a business/investment)... as such, collect what YOU like.....the owner of a coin is entitled to do with it as he or she pleases....even have it tossed in their coffin if they wish (yep, take it with them). So, wail and wring your hands in agony as you wish, but the coin is what it is, some people want it, you do not have to like it. And yes, Keets is correct, most of the old coins were cleaned at one time and re-tarnished.. this present desire for environmentally damaged coins was not always the standard........and for many today, it is still not. Cheers, RickO
<< <i>To be clear, the elite critics would not deign to own this coin at any price?
If it was for sale at 51 cents, you would turn down this unworthy, this ruined coin?
wow. >>
All early coins have collector value. A holed, worn example of this date is still worth a hundred dollars or two.
Our host is the premier grader in the business and I think was better served when they stuck to the problem free coins. Just my opinion.
Obviously there is a place for the more experienced coins, but keep them separate from the originals.
<< <i>Sometimes, when people express concern for "the hobby", I suspect what they really mean is, "My coins of interest and their values" >>
+1
If one recognizes the fundamental scientific (or at least theological) truth that originality goes out the door when the first few microns of metal are removed from the surfaces, "dipping" is "cleaning".
However....
Both words have taken on baggage in numismatics far beyond their dictionary definitions. "Dipping" is "cleaning" unless you're dipping a coin in (let's say) acetone. The mechanical act of dipping allows acetone to clean off residue. But it doesn't "clean" off residue. And on and on into the miasmic morass of a semantic clusterf@@k
TomB. Feldini, James Garcia and I had spirited debates on precisely this issue in a 40+ blog on the PNG Coin Doctoring Definition website.
My take is that, if we can come together, can open our hearts and minds, we will be shown the True Path(s). .
Back to your regularly scheduled pissing and moaning. .
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<< <i>There are too many purists that I don't believe realize that coins they consider pure are really not completely pure.
Coins have been "cleaned" since coins have been made.
Whether it is the kid in 1800 rubbing the dirt off the early cent he just dropped in the mud to the early coin club members
in the mid 1800"s who sat around by candle light comparing their coin collections. Bet a few coins were "touched" back then.
I'm with Baley on this one.
Crack that coin out of the plastic it is in and let it breath air again.
That will be a desirable collector coin long after we are all dust. >>
You can say all coins were messed with over the years, but we know that isn't true since no one can know what happened over the years since they didn't have the coin in their possession. I am just talking about what the coin looks like now. If the coin appears to be original then that coin should be the poster child for the hobby and promoted as what is acceptable as opposed to the coins that are obviously dipped. We are basically making dealers dip their coins in order to achieve a higher grade and a higher selling price right now. Why are we allowing this to happen to any coin in our hobby? >>
Why are we allowing it? Because there is a significant population of coin collectors who are all bark and no bite. We don't know what that coin looked like before it was dipped. I have dipped a lot of coins that were dark and completely unsalable. I am not talking dark but attractive, I am talking butt ugly. They dipped well and were quite attractive; some even stickered. If it is so important to keep everything original, then maybe you should buy up all the ugly coins that are unsalable.
<< <i>If dipping was considered cleaning then 80% of the coins would be bodybagged. >>
Yes, this is exactly what should happen. The TPG's should be the gatekeepers to keep coins like this from being passed as problem-free. I think it makes sense for this coin to be in a (appropriately-identified problem) holder, as it does indeed have value. But to allow this coin, or any other coin in this deplorable condition, into a problem-free holder is a disservice to the coin _hobby_. It is of course a great service to the coin _industry_, as it allows such problem coins to be marketed at full value alongside the far more rare original, problem-free coins. Indeed this coin, in its original condition, may actually have been worth less in the current accommodating market that values blast white coins over original (tarnished) ones. This is sad, since it results in more and more original coins being ruined each day to make that quick buck at the expense of future generations of collectors who will never be able to enjoy those coins again in their original state.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>Buy it, store it in an album for 60 years and retire off it... >>
This! Since all of the surface contamination is gone and not going to harm the coin...the coin can be allowed to age a bit and re-tone. It could be an absolutely amazing looking coin and it would not take 60 years (that's the retiring part). It could "naturally" re-tone in far less time. It all depends on the the environment it is in.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>I have dipped a lot of coins that were dark and completely unsalable. I am not talking dark but attractive, I am talking butt ugly. They dipped well and were quite attractive; some even stickered. If it is so important to keep everything original, then maybe you should buy up all the ugly coins that are unsalable. >>
That's what it's all about, isn't it? Make the coin pretty so it will sell.
You could also paint all your coins gold. You'd probably sell more that way too.