Please don't take this the wrong way, but if this coin has even the slightest appeal to you, you need to spend time educating yourself on whats nice, and whats original, and what to stay away from. Also, any dealer offering a coin like this at 100 bucks is either a crook, or at least somebody you need to stay away from ! >>
This. Another gentleman in another thread had only posted today after lurking for a year. Said he had learned a lot in that year. Good advice.
Your son likes colorful coins? Try experimenting with some common date silver coins, a potato and a 350 degree oven. Save a bunch of $$ and you can learn to spot AT
Keep your coin passion going but you MUST take 6 months off from buying any coins and educate yourself regarding condition and natural and artificial toning.
The coin in your opening post is a very poor choice because it is greatly overgraded, harshly cleaned and artificially toned....3 MAJOR strikes against it.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
Oh nasty I have been readin things on this site for over a year but with out asking questions how can you get the proper answers. I also am not that much into the lurking thing I like geting right into it being involved expanding my knowledge enjoying my self and doing what I can to enjoy what I have left of my rapidly declining life and that will not change. Some are content so sit back and let others do for them I am content to do for myself as best as I can.
As has previously been said, this coin is essentially worth melt value due to the artificial toning, significant scratches, and wear.
As for knowing how its artificially toned; as previously stated by other members you have to look at thousands of coins and then you begin to develop the "eye". But in short, the toning pattern, and intensity of the colors is way off. As far as the scratches are concerned, you should be able to see how harshly cleaned this coin is. Take a look at all the horizontal and vertical lines. Also, notice how Liberty's hair and the wings on her cap have a significant amount of wear, which prevents it from being a mint state coin. Finally, based on the picture, I don't think this coin has full bands... notice how the center band doesn't appear to be fully split.
Lastly, I believe you are taking everybody's comments too personally. They are trying to help you and dissuade you from purchasing this coin (for anything more than $2). If I found a vintage French horn that was all mangled, with dents, and didn't even play properly and I came to you and said, "hey, I think I'm going to buy this horn for $2,000 from this antique dealer because I like it and think it has some charm", wouldn't you try to point me in the right direction and show me something better?
This is the ANA Summer Seminar. Though some people have problems with the ANA, I believe this is still a worthwhile program. There will be more information on 2014 soon, but for now you can see what it is all about. This is where many people go to learn about coins, there are grading classes, counterfeit classes and all sorts of different subject classes.
If this is your definition of a dealer on the "up and up,".........I'd hate to see what you would call a sheister. Hopefully, you've bought nothing from this guy already except possibly bullion coins.
This coin is worth no more than melt with the AT, cleaning, and scratches.
As others have said, I would probably find another B&M to frequent if the owner's serious about wanting $100 for this. He sounds like he has no idea what he's doing.
I'm inclined to agree with most of what's been said about the coin posted. Please don't take the comments personally. Folks on this forum tend to be very honest, sometimes brutally so! I've been subject to some very harsh reality checks in my time here and like you, continue learning. You're enthusiasm impresses me! And, I think you must have pretty thick skin to survive around here at times... But, don't take comments on your posted coin personally... What people are saying is the truth, and sometimes 'the truth hurts'.
Here's one I picked up some years ago because I liked the color. It wasn't until I got home and studied it more closely that I noticed the circular PMD... Still I think the colors are likely natural.... I could be wrong.... Now, I didn't pay much for this coin and wouldn't be crushed if my bubble was burst....but the great thing about his place is the honesty- and that's a very valuable commodity in this day and age!!!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
As previously stated this is a shop I like to pick for errors as they pay no attention to them, That is what I buy from them like a 1922 Peace dollar VAM-8 for $75.00 in a high AU. This is not the shop I go to for quality items these guys have NAC slabs for sale same as PCGS slabs.
Thanks nwcoast I appreciate it and that is very gutsy showing a coin as damaged and imperfect as that on here, just kidding lol Now seriously that coin is horrible, it has dead fields, no luster, severe damage and would not be gradable. lol Thanks for posting a coin that is not all that also.
Just think how boring things would be with out my posts i give so much ammunition for people to get out their frustrations lol Stick and stones can brake my bones but calling me names will never hurt me. After being dead for awhile most things that are negative are just a triviality. I do what I do because I enjoy it not because others do and at times that bugs those that are others....lol lets get together and all go have a
<< <i>Thank you all and as for the dealers side of the story they are a shop that has a spotty rep that was taken over in a very bitter battle by the children of the owner when he died. I would record the conversations except for the fact that I find that creepy. The dealer has a lot of NAC slabbed coins on display for sale right next to PCGS and NGC and tends to represent them as the same quality. This is the dealer who does not look for errors not even easy to see Peace Dollar VAMs. As stated previously I think the guy is messing with me and I will discuss with him what was stated in this post. Again thank you for all the help. >>
You Misunderstood, I want the Dealer to comment on YOU. Why Not supply them with this website like the ebay seller you called out and now owe an apology too. And as far as recording someone where is that coming from? And I read that you enjoy cherry picking the dealer and yet you come here and bad mouth them? I also like your answer as far as taking a break, why should you stop posting when you have so much to share with this board. It also amazes me that so many on this board are going after the dealer when you do NOT know the whole story.............Just Like the Ebay seller I believe there is more to this story than John is sharing. Enjoy Now go ahead and say some old man is being mean to you again and yet its ok for you to call out others..........Ebay Seller comes here to defend himself............
Well 1tommy the ebay seller you are talking about has not provided any proof that the coin he listed was actually genuine. He did not follow through on the bet, he demanded an apology from all the members who stated in their opinion the coin was not as represented. I have stated I will supply the link to the dealer to comment if they so choose to do so. I have not bad mouthed them at all, all I have done is state facts. You need to go back and read over both posts because your arguments are off base and incorrect. If every person who called out some one selling a coin that is fake, counterfeit, artificially toned, cleaned, or misrepresented in any other way you would be seeing hundreds of apologies on this board on a daily basis. Read the part of my statement you quoted because it makes your argument a moot point. Thank you for your opinion and now would you please offer me that apology you are demanding of me? (of course not) Have a great day 1tommy and may life bring to you what you bring to life.....
Cleaned and AT'd, BUT if it were 1/25th the price (and not cleaned) I'd buy it for the neat die clashing.
"He who loves silver will not be satisfied with silver, nor he who loves abundance, with increase. This also is vanity.
When goods increase, they increase who eat them -- so what profit have the owners, except to see them with their eyes?"
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man’s all.
For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil."
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me." http://www.youtube.com/user/alohabibleprophecy/videos
Please note that this is the PCGS coin forum. PCGS exists for a reason. It protects collectors from things like paying $100 for an AU, harshly cleaned, AT dime worth $1.44. But the only way to avail yourself of that protection is to buy coins in PCGS holders. Let me say that you are not the first, and are unlikely to be the last, new person to come here and post pictures of raw coins that they are interested in buying, or have purchased, that are egregiously over graded, harshly cleaned, AT, or even counterfeit. The first lesson to be learned is buy PCGS holdered coins until you are knowledgeable about grading, detecting counterfeits, altered coins, AT coins etc. to a level of proficiency that matches or rivals the folks in the PCGS grading room.
<< <i>But the only way to avail yourself of that protection is to buy coins in PCGS holders...The first lesson to be learned is buy PCGS holdered coins until you are knowledgeable about grading, detecting counterfeits, altered coins, AT coins etc. to a level of proficiency that matches or rivals the folks in the PCGS grading room.
CG >>
Hello,
There is always self education, observation and books (now we have online resources) - this is what the "old timers" did before there was TPG. I did, and I am sure you did too! What I mean is just this - I am in favor of self education before buying anything. You can still buy a "B" or "C" coin in top 3 TPG plastic. "Tuition" need not cost much if anything IMHO.
Thank you again for the info guys. There is a post right now about fake PCGS holders and coins so the coin in a holder is no guarantee. FTB I feel sorry for you as your life must be just an absolute chore every day to be such a nice, considerate and helpful person as exhibited by you on this board. I have sent you a PM telling you to leave me alone now I am openly asking you to leave me alone. If you have nothing of actual knowledge about the topic of the post I place stay out of it. It is people like you that new people coming to numismatics experience and thus decide that the people in the hobby are all contrite jerks. Stop being hateful life is a gift given to us daily, open your eyes and see this before it is to late. Tomorrow is our hopes and dreams of today and I for one value that. How would you feel if everyone treated you the way you are treating me, such a sad life, I hope you find joy to place in your heart soon.
<< <i>There is always self education, observation and books (now we have online resources) - this is what the "old timers" did before there was TPG. I did, and I am sure you did too! What I mean is just this - I am in favor of self education before buying anything. You can still buy a "B" or "C" coin in top 3 TPG plastic. "Tuition" need not cost much if anything IMHO. >>
Old timers got ripped off up the yangs. That is why we now have TPG. And yes there are low end for the grade coins in TPG plastic but better low end for the grade than ungradeable junk or even counterfeits. Take a look some time at the grading results and/or PCGS statistics for bagged coins. I recall seeing a Not Genuine on a HR Saint that someone submitted--ouch.
<< <i>I was going to keep it in a book we have of Merc dimes no intention of grading it I know it has been wiped/cleaned at some point. My oldes son liked the colors also but I would rather spend 100.00 on something that is persay real than AT if that is what this coin is. The other issues are ok for us as we do circulated sets so we expext some to have damage or cleaning at some point. >>
To answer this in the nicest way -- just because you are doing circulated sets doesn't mean you should be accepting of any damage or cleaning at any point. Your instincts to avoid this coin as AT (and horribly cleaned, to boot) are correct, but I think you need to strengthen them. I personally wouldn't want this piece even for a strict bullion price.
<< <i>negativity runs rampant around here, it is just how it is. It also seems that everyone is supposed to be born with an innate numismatic understanding of everything coin related.Unfortunately I was not born an idiot savant of numismatics and therefore have to at times ask questions about this subject, hobby and business. I also was not born with a numismatic silver spoon in my mouth and have to work my way up in this field. If you would like to buy a vintage sousaphone, french horn, melophone, trumpet, coronet or bugle I can help you out there. Positive thoughts achieve positive results. Failure is never final and success is never ending. If you lead a negative life life will be negative to you etc.... Cant we all be nice to each other, support one another and just be encouraging to prosper the hobby and those in it and yet to begin? >>
Not a single person on this thread is being negative towards you -- rather, towards that dog of a coin. You'd best grow a thicker skin. The coin literally, has no redeeming value. Barely worth the bullion it is, IMO. You should stay far, far away from that "dealer", and find yourself a more reputable one. If however, you like the idea of buying a piece for $100 and getting offered $1.50 when going to sell, more power to you. Most would aspire to do better.
Ok put it this way. I bought this coin RAW for the same $20 dollars, The same amount you would have spent on the coin you posted. So whitch one would you buy? And if that is the only coin that dealer has to sell i'll just pass on it and you should do the same and find a new dealer. This one just came back from grading today.
<< <i>Melt value for something that is not a date rarity. That has been brutalized.
Toning is splotchy. Worked on this obvious is oil sheen like. Wide pools of color banding, but where is the random splotchiness? >>
Technically speaking, the 1917 being discussed just looks like a classic, over-scrubbed piece that then spent time in a Whitman Classic album from the '60s, in that sense it's a natural tone, that's just how they end up looking when the piece has been scrubbed up prior to insertion and then left for 30 to 40 years.
I know this having seen many such coins in old collections of "stuff" when working for a dealer in high school, in addition to my oldest brother's lovingly-cleaned and stored in a Whitman Classic collection of circ Roosevelt dimes he's had since the '60s, all of which have just that appearance.
<< <i>Melt value for something that is not a date rarity. That has been brutalized.
Toning is splotchy. Worked on this obvious is oil sheen like. Wide pools of color banding, but where is the random splotchiness? >>
Technically speaking, the 1917 being discussed just looks like a classic, over-scrubbed piece that then spent time in a Whitman Classic album from the '60s, in that sense it's a natural tone, that's just how they end up looking when the piece has been scrubbed up prior to insertion and then left for 30 to 40 years.
I know this having seen many such coins in old collections of "stuff" when working for a dealer in high school, in addition to my oldest brother's lovingly-cleaned and stored in a Whitman Classic collection of circ Roosevelt dimes he's had since the '60s, all of which have just that appearance. >>
Ignoring the scrub, would you call them AT? Or just funky looking?
Comments
<< <i>Oh and I might add,
Please don't take this the wrong way, but if this coin has even the slightest appeal to you, you need to spend time educating yourself on whats nice, and whats original, and what to stay away from. Also, any dealer offering a coin like this at 100 bucks is either a crook, or at least somebody you need to stay away from ! >>
This.
Another gentleman in another thread had only posted today after lurking for a year. Said he had learned a lot in that year. Good advice.
Even cruising around the sites like the one I linked to above.
Eric
Keep your coin passion going but you MUST take 6 months off from buying any coins and educate yourself regarding condition and natural and artificial toning.
The coin in your opening post is a very poor choice because it is greatly overgraded, harshly cleaned and artificially toned....3 MAJOR strikes against it.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
As has previously been said, this coin is essentially worth melt value due to the artificial toning, significant scratches, and wear.
As for knowing how its artificially toned; as previously stated by other members you have to look at thousands of coins and then you begin to develop the "eye". But in short, the toning pattern, and intensity of the colors is way off. As far as the scratches are concerned, you should be able to see how harshly cleaned this coin is. Take a look at all the horizontal and vertical lines. Also, notice how Liberty's hair and the wings on her cap have a significant amount of wear, which prevents it from being a mint state coin. Finally, based on the picture, I don't think this coin has full bands... notice how the center band doesn't appear to be fully split.
Lastly, I believe you are taking everybody's comments too personally. They are trying to help you and dissuade you from purchasing this coin (for anything more than $2). If I found a vintage French horn that was all mangled, with dents, and didn't even play properly and I came to you and said, "hey, I think I'm going to buy this horn for $2,000 from this antique dealer because I like it and think it has some charm", wouldn't you try to point me in the right direction and show me something better?
rkp
Link
This is the ANA Summer Seminar. Though some people have problems with the ANA, I believe this is still a worthwhile program. There will be more information on 2014 soon, but for now you can see what it is all about. This is where many people go to learn about coins, there are grading classes, counterfeit classes and all sorts of different subject classes.
I hope this helps.
Partner @Gold Hill Coin
you will be able to see thousands of discussions of AT coins
$100 for this? What did P.T. Barnum say?
As others have said, I would probably find another B&M to frequent if the owner's serious about wanting $100 for this. He sounds like he has no idea what he's doing.
Please don't take the comments personally. Folks on this forum tend to be very honest, sometimes brutally so!
I've been subject to some very harsh reality checks in my time here and like you, continue learning.
You're enthusiasm impresses me! And, I think you must have pretty thick skin to survive around here at times...
But, don't take comments on your posted coin personally...
What people are saying is the truth, and sometimes 'the truth hurts'.
Here's one I picked up some years ago because I liked the color. It wasn't until I got home and studied it more closely that I noticed the circular PMD... Still I think the colors are likely natural.... I could be wrong.... Now, I didn't pay much for this coin and wouldn't be crushed if my bubble was burst....but the great thing about his place is the honesty- and that's a very valuable commodity in this day and age!!!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
<< <i>Thank you all and as for the dealers side of the story they are a shop that has a spotty rep that was taken over in a very bitter battle by the children of the owner when he died. I would record the conversations except for the fact that I find that creepy. The dealer has a lot of NAC slabbed coins on display for sale right next to PCGS and NGC and tends to represent them as the same quality. This is the dealer who does not look for errors not even easy to see Peace Dollar VAMs. As stated previously I think the guy is messing with me and I will discuss with him what was stated in this post. Again thank you for all the help. >>
You Misunderstood, I want the Dealer to comment on YOU. Why Not supply them with this website like the ebay seller you called out and now owe an apology too. And as far as recording someone where is that coming from? And I read that you enjoy cherry picking the dealer and yet you come here and bad mouth them? I also like your answer as far as taking a break, why should you stop posting when you have so much to share with this board. It also amazes me that so many on this board are going after the dealer when you do NOT know the whole story.............Just Like the Ebay seller I believe there is more to this story than John is sharing. Enjoy
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
"He who loves silver will not be satisfied with silver, nor he who loves abundance, with increase. This also is vanity.
When goods increase, they increase who eat them -- so what profit have the owners, except to see them with their eyes?"
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man’s all.
For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil."
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."
http://www.youtube.com/user/alohabibleprophecy/videos
Just do not try to sell it on the BST exchange.
Please note that this is the PCGS coin forum. PCGS exists for a reason. It protects collectors from things like paying $100 for an AU, harshly cleaned, AT dime worth $1.44. But the only way to avail yourself of that protection is to buy coins in PCGS holders. Let me say that you are not the first, and are unlikely to be the last, new person to come here and post pictures of raw coins that they are interested in buying, or have purchased, that are egregiously over graded, harshly cleaned, AT, or even counterfeit. The first lesson to be learned is buy PCGS holdered coins until you are knowledgeable about grading, detecting counterfeits, altered coins, AT coins etc. to a level of proficiency that matches or rivals the folks in the PCGS grading room.
CG
<< <i>But the only way to avail yourself of that protection is to buy coins in PCGS holders...The first lesson to be learned is buy PCGS holdered coins until you are knowledgeable about grading, detecting counterfeits, altered coins, AT coins etc. to a level of proficiency that matches or rivals the folks in the PCGS grading room.
CG >>
Hello,
There is always self education, observation and books (now we have online resources) - this is what the "old timers" did before there was TPG. I did, and I am sure you did too!
What I mean is just this - I am in favor of self education before buying anything. You can still buy a "B" or "C" coin in top 3 TPG plastic. "Tuition" need not cost much if anything IMHO.
Best wishes,
Eric
<< <i>There is always self education, observation and books (now we have online resources) - this is what the "old timers" did before there was TPG. I did, and I am sure you did too!
What I mean is just this - I am in favor of self education before buying anything. You can still buy a "B" or "C" coin in top 3 TPG plastic. "Tuition" need not cost much if anything IMHO. >>
Old timers got ripped off up the yangs. That is why we now have TPG. And yes there are low end for the grade coins in TPG plastic but better low end for the grade than ungradeable junk or even counterfeits. Take a look some time at the grading results and/or PCGS statistics for bagged coins. I recall seeing a Not Genuine on a HR Saint that someone submitted--ouch.
CG
<< <i>I was going to keep it in a book we have of Merc dimes no intention of grading it I know it has been wiped/cleaned at some point. My oldes son liked the colors also but I would rather spend 100.00 on something that is persay real than AT if that is what this coin is. The other issues are ok for us as we do circulated sets so we expext some to have damage or cleaning at some point. >>
To answer this in the nicest way -- just because you are doing circulated sets doesn't mean you should be accepting of any damage or cleaning at any point. Your instincts to avoid this coin as AT (and horribly cleaned, to boot) are correct, but I think you need to strengthen them. I personally wouldn't want this piece even for a strict bullion price.
<< <i>negativity runs rampant around here, it is just how it is. It also seems that everyone is supposed to be born with an innate numismatic understanding of everything coin related.Unfortunately I was not born an idiot savant of numismatics and therefore have to at times ask questions about this subject, hobby and business. I also was not born with a numismatic silver spoon in my mouth and have to work my way up in this field. If you would like to buy a vintage sousaphone, french horn, melophone, trumpet, coronet or bugle I can help you out there. Positive thoughts achieve positive results. Failure is never final and success is never ending. If you lead a negative life life will be negative to you etc.... Cant we all be nice to each other, support one another and just be encouraging to prosper the hobby and those in it and yet to begin? >>
Not a single person on this thread is being negative towards you -- rather, towards that dog of a coin. You'd best grow a thicker skin. The coin literally, has no redeeming value. Barely worth the bullion it is, IMO. You should stay far, far away from that "dealer", and find yourself a more reputable one. If however, you like the idea of buying a piece for $100 and getting offered $1.50 when going to sell, more power to you. Most would aspire to do better.
Hoard the keys.
Toning is splotchy. Worked on this obvious is oil sheen like. Wide pools of color banding, but where is the random splotchiness?
<< <i>Looks to me like someone tried to tone the coin to cover-up the harsh cleaning. >>
That's what I was thinking
And some of that toning is heavy. You might end up wirmth an equally ugly dipped coin.
<< <i>Melt value for something that is not a date rarity. That has been brutalized.
Toning is splotchy. Worked on this obvious is oil sheen like. Wide pools of color banding, but where is the random splotchiness? >>
Technically speaking, the 1917 being discussed just looks like a classic, over-scrubbed piece that then spent time in a Whitman Classic album from the '60s, in that sense it's a natural tone, that's just how they end up looking when the piece has been scrubbed up prior to insertion and then left for 30 to 40 years.
I know this having seen many such coins in old collections of "stuff" when working for a dealer in high school, in addition to my oldest brother's lovingly-cleaned and stored in a Whitman Classic collection of circ Roosevelt dimes he's had since the '60s, all of which have just that appearance.
<< <i>
<< <i>Melt value for something that is not a date rarity. That has been brutalized.
Toning is splotchy. Worked on this obvious is oil sheen like. Wide pools of color banding, but where is the random splotchiness? >>
Technically speaking, the 1917 being discussed just looks like a classic, over-scrubbed piece that then spent time in a Whitman Classic album from the '60s, in that sense it's a natural tone, that's just how they end up looking when the piece has been scrubbed up prior to insertion and then left for 30 to 40 years.
I know this having seen many such coins in old collections of "stuff" when working for a dealer in high school, in addition to my oldest brother's lovingly-cleaned and stored in a Whitman Classic collection of circ Roosevelt dimes he's had since the '60s, all of which have just that appearance.
Ignoring the scrub, would you call them AT? Or just funky looking?