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1975 - 1979 baseball cello authentication
Orioles
Posts: 312 ✭✭✭
I've been reading many of the threads on this board and others about the authenticity of cello packs from the late 1970s. It's no secret that many packs, graded or otherwise, are fake. There have been some good threads that have talked about the markings used on the cello pack itself to help determine the year. What I am interested in knowing more about is the cards that an appear on the top of a cello pack. What i've taken from the threads and research is the following:
from 1975-1977 only cards with a double asterisk (**) can appear on the top of a cello pack. I've looked at many of the packs sold on ebay, both graded and ungraded and looked at all the 1975 packs that Fritsch is selling and that seems to hold up with the exception of some star cards. Can anyone point me to a pack from 1975-1977 with a card on top that doesn't have a double asterisk and the player is not a star. For example, i've seen packs with Robin Yount, Thurman Munson and Dave Winfield all from 1975 and they all have single asterisks on them and the same with 1977 Nolan Ryan packs. i'm looking for an example of a common player to test whether what i've seen is true rather than only seeing star players that don't fit the pattern.
In 1978 and 1979 only cards with a D,E,F can appear on the top of a cello pack. Again, looking at packs sold this trend holds up for common players and most stars. But players like 1978 Eddie Murray, Tom Seaver and 1979 Ozzie Smith cards appear on the top of cellos but have an A, B or C. Does anyone have any examples of common players with an A, B or C that they can show.
Thanks for any information you can provide. I'm just trying to get to information that can either prove or disprove what i'm seeing using actual examples that exist.
Jim
from 1975-1977 only cards with a double asterisk (**) can appear on the top of a cello pack. I've looked at many of the packs sold on ebay, both graded and ungraded and looked at all the 1975 packs that Fritsch is selling and that seems to hold up with the exception of some star cards. Can anyone point me to a pack from 1975-1977 with a card on top that doesn't have a double asterisk and the player is not a star. For example, i've seen packs with Robin Yount, Thurman Munson and Dave Winfield all from 1975 and they all have single asterisks on them and the same with 1977 Nolan Ryan packs. i'm looking for an example of a common player to test whether what i've seen is true rather than only seeing star players that don't fit the pattern.
In 1978 and 1979 only cards with a D,E,F can appear on the top of a cello pack. Again, looking at packs sold this trend holds up for common players and most stars. But players like 1978 Eddie Murray, Tom Seaver and 1979 Ozzie Smith cards appear on the top of cellos but have an A, B or C. Does anyone have any examples of common players with an A, B or C that they can show.
Thanks for any information you can provide. I'm just trying to get to information that can either prove or disprove what i'm seeing using actual examples that exist.
Jim
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Surely the experts in the best 3rd party authentication business can tell whether a wax or cello pack has been resealed or tampered......that's why we pay money for authentication.
That's why authenticated wax and cellos run for high dollars.
If the "resealed" opinion was only partially correct then why would anyone pay money for 3rd party authentication?
<< <i>Jim - be careful with your presumption. It is an accurate one as far as it goes, but it would do nothing to detect/deter a fake with correct sequencing. The incorrect stars are just the low hanging fruit. A correct common doesnt mean it isn't a reseal. With the money unopened is drawing from that period right now, I'd expect to see even more junk. >>
I agree with what you are saying. I'm just trying to take it one step at a time. I know a card can be put in the right spot but still be resealed both for cellos and racks but if there are certain cards that cannot be on top that's a start. If i'm wrong about Topps putting certain grouping of cards on top, that's fine i'm willing to listen to other opinions.
Why do we pay for police? They let evil doers get away once in a while. They occasionally botch an investigation. Because an evil doer gets away from the police or they botch an investigation, does that mean that the police do not serve an overwhelming good?
Packs got past Steve and PSA. I too was shocked by this at first, but, I have come to the conclusion that counterfeiting, scammers and fraud is part of not only this hobby but of life. No one is perfect and can catch it all. The good Steve and PSA do for the hobby FAR out weighs the anomalies that get through. Would you rather PSA stop grading packs? Really? Because going back to those days is the only alternative! Its Steve Hart doing the best he can or Nothing! Steve does a damn good job and his opinion has a monetary guarantee backed by a publicly traded company! He made mistakes? I am sure he learned from them and is now better equipped going forward. Focus on the evil doers in the world not the police who try their best to protect us.
<< <i>What makes you say that some "graded" packs are "fake" - I assume you mean some "authenticated" packs are "resealed" or have been tampered?
Surely the experts in the best 3rd party authentication business can tell whether a wax or cello pack has been resealed or tampered......that's why we pay money for authentication.
That's why authenticated wax and cellos run for high dollars.
If the "resealed" opinion was only partially correct then why would anyone pay money for 3rd party authentication? >>
Fair enough......use resealed, tampered or whatever word you want. I wish it was easy enough to just trust a third party authenticator for cards, packs or anything else. I do trust PSA more than most other companies out there but that doesn't mean I shouldn't ask questions. If I am going to continue to collect unopened packs of my favorite Orioles players than I at least want to learn a little more about what I need to be looking for. If I can't learn enough to get comfortable, I should stop collecting them.
<< <i>Jim - be careful with your presumption. It is an accurate one as far as it goes, but it would do nothing to detect/deter a fake with correct sequencing. The incorrect stars are just the low hanging fruit. A correct common doesnt mean it isn't a reseal. With the money unopened is drawing from that period right now, I'd expect to see even more junk. >>
This is a good point - as the value of "common" packs goes up, the chances of bogus packs with the proper sequence increases.
That said, if what Jim is saying is true (and I've yet to see evidence that it isn't), then that means there are a LOT more than just "a few" bogus cellos that were authenticated.
Doug
<< <i>
<< <i>Jim - be careful with your presumption. It is an accurate one as far as it goes, but it would do nothing to detect/deter a fake with correct sequencing. The incorrect stars are just the low hanging fruit. A correct common doesnt mean it isn't a reseal. With the money unopened is drawing from that period right now, I'd expect to see even more junk. >>
This is a good point - as the value of "common" packs goes up, the chances of bogus packs with the proper sequence increases.
That said, if what Jim is saying is true (and I've yet to see evidence that it isn't), then that means there are a LOT more than just "a few" bogus cellos that were authenticated.
Doug >>
You make a good point too Doug. And if what you say is true, a majority of the 'bogus' packs you talk about were knowingly submitted to PSA and SOLD to unsuspecting victims by one person!
Fair enough Snuffy - I'm just curious as to what % error we can still call "authentication", true authentication ---- 1%, 5%, 10%?
I'll wager that many collectors, if they knew the true numbers, wouldn't pay the prices that "authentic" unopened material currently commands.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Jim - be careful with your presumption. It is an accurate one as far as it goes, but it would do nothing to detect/deter a fake with correct sequencing. The incorrect stars are just the low hanging fruit. A correct common doesnt mean it isn't a reseal. With the money unopened is drawing from that period right now, I'd expect to see even more junk. >>
This is a good point - as the value of "common" packs goes up, the chances of bogus packs with the proper sequence increases.
That said, if what Jim is saying is true (and I've yet to see evidence that it isn't), then that means there are a LOT more than just "a few" bogus cellos that were authenticated.
Doug >>
You make a good point too Doug. And if what you say is true, a majority of the 'bogus' packs you talk about were knowingly submitted to PSA and SOLD to unsuspecting victims by one person! >>
I guess I don't understand why that matters in the context of this discussion - there is another thread on that. That said, if you really think that bogus packs are only coming from one source you are being short sighted. Do you really believe that the same person submitted 22 1978 Murray O/T packs and 16 1979 Ozzie O/T packs?
Doug
I've seen a 78 cello with mixed up sequence that has common players on front and back. Showed to me by a board member so perhaps they'll chime in.
<< <i>Fair enough Snuffy - I'm just curious as to what % error we can still call "authentication", true authentication ---- 1%, 5%, 10%?
I'll wager that many collectors, if they knew the true numbers, wouldn't pay the prices that "authentic" unopened material currently commands. >>
Respectfully, I think a better question is whats the better alternative to what we have? Should PSA stop authenticating packs? Would that be better for the hobby and increase pack values and give people more confidence? I don't think so. The hobby needs to keep learning from its mistakes and keep sharing information and keep a spotlight on evil doers and prevent them from doing more harm.
As far as your question to me, I would have no idea what the percentage is, but, I know whatever it is, buying a PSA slabbed pack is a far better option then buying most raw packs off of ebay. As a matter of discussion, do you have a better alternative to PSA and Steve for unopen product? I don't, but, I would be very open to listening to ideas!
Already when bogus packs have been pointed out, some of the owners of those packs seem much more interested in finding a parachute and exit, and unfortunately another unsuspecting person becomes a new owner.
<< <i>For some, such as me, the better option is not to purchase vintage unopened as I think the hobby criminals are too damn good at what they do, and there is too great a chance of a mistake "getting by" the gentlemen authenticating the packs. >>
And for you and many other people that is a very valid and very understandable option and opinion! However, for many others, making this part of the hobby go away is not an option. The question remains is there a better solution then PSA and Steve to make buying unopen material safer for those people that want it? I don't think so... again, I am open to hearing ideas!
<< <i>
<< <i>Fair enough Snuffy - I'm just curious as to what % error we can still call "authentication", true authentication ---- 1%, 5%, 10%?
I'll wager that many collectors, if they knew the true numbers, wouldn't pay the prices that "authentic" unopened material currently commands. >>
Respectfully, I think a better question is whats the better alternative to what we have? Should PSA stop authenticating packs? Would that be better for the hobby and increase pack values and give people more confidence? I don't think so. The hobby needs to keep learning from its mistakes and keep sharing information and keep a spotlight on evil doers and prevent them from doing more harm.
As far as your question to me, I would have no idea what the percentage is, but, I know whatever it is, buying a PSA slabbed pack is a far better option then buying most raw packs off of ebay. As a matter of discussion, do you have a better alternative to PSA and Steve for unopen product? I don't, but, I would be very open to listening to ideas! >>
Excellent point Snuffy and it's the elephant in the room (probably one of many). It's something I struggle with myself.
<< <i>It would be great if we could keep the snide comments count down and actually have a conversation about unopened where people learn a thing or two before the thread goes poof.
I've seen a 78 cello with mixed up sequence that has common players on front and back. Showed to me by a board member so perhaps they'll chime in. >>
Thanks for the on-point response. I am hoping to learn more. If anyone has a cheat-sheet of the one asterisk and two asterisk stars from the 1970s, posting it or pm-ing it to me would be appreciated. There can be much to learn here, and a basic list would be a nice start. I could put one together if it doesn't exist.
<< <i>
<< <i>For some, such as me, the better option is not to purchase vintage unopened as I think the hobby criminals are too damn good at what they do, and there is too great a chance of a mistake "getting by" the gentlemen authenticating the packs. >>
And for you and many other people that is a very valid and very understandable option and opinion! However, for many others, making this part of the hobby go away is not an option. The question remains is there a better solution then PSA and Steve to make buying unopen material safer for those people that want it? I don't think so... again, I am open to hearing ideas! >>
It would be nice if we could have a single unopened conversation where theories and facts were discussed instead of the same old tired BS that eventually gets threads removed. The OP didn't mention PSA once. Let's have a conversation about it and maybe some collectors will learn a thing or two and not get hosed on a future deal.
<< <i>
<< <i>It would be great if we could keep the snide comments count down and actually have a conversation about unopened where people learn a thing or two before the thread goes poof.
I've seen a 78 cello with mixed up sequence that has common players on front and back. Showed to me by a board member so perhaps they'll chime in. >>
Thanks for the on-point response. I am hoping to learn more. If anyone has a cheat-sheet of the one asterisk and two asterisk stars from the 1970s, posting it or pm-ing it to me would be appreciated. There can be much to learn here, and a basic list would be a nice start. I could put one together if it doesn't exist. >>
That's a great idea. I'd be willing to assist.
Here is the 1975 list I compiled for myself. I think it's right but if anyone finds something incorrect, let me know. Here goes nothing....
* 1 Hank Aaron 74 HL -- Atlanta Braves
* 2 Lou Brock 74 HL -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 3 Bob Gibson 74 HL -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 4 Al Kaline 74 HL -- Detroit Tigers
* 5 Nolan Ryan 74 HL -- California Angels
* 6 Mike Marshall 74 HL -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 7 Bosman/Busby/Ryan
* 8 Rogelio Moret -- Boston Red Sox
* 9 Frank Tepedino -- Atlanta Braves
* 10 Willie Davis -- Montreal Expos
* 11 Bill Melton -- Chicago White Sox
* 12 David Clyde -- Texas Rangers
* 13 Gene Locklear -- San Diego Padres
* 14 Milt Wilcox -- Cleveland Indians
* 15 Jose Cardenal -- Chicago Cubs
* 16 Frank Tanana -- California Angels
* 17 Dave Concepcion -- Cincinnati Reds
* 18 Ralph Houk -- Detroit Tigers
* 19 Jerry Koosman -- New York Mets
* 20 Thurman Munson -- New York Yankees
* 21 Rollie Fingers -- Oakland Athletics
* 22 Dave Cash -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 23 Bill Russell -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 24 Al Fitzmorris -- Kansas City Royals
* 25 Lee May -- Houston Astros
* 26 Dave McNally -- Baltimore Orioles
* 27 Ken Reitz -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 28 Tom Murphy -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 29 Dave Parker -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 30 Bert Blyleven -- Minnesota Twins
* 31 Dave Rader -- San Francisco Giants
* 32 Reggie Cleveland -- Boston Red Sox
* 33 Dusty Baker -- Atlanta Braves
* 34 Steve Renko -- Montreal Expos
* 35 Ron Santo -- Chicago White Sox
* 36 Joe Lovitto -- Texas Rangers
* 37 Dave Freisleben -- San Diego Padres
* 38 Buddy Bell -- Cleveland Indians
* 39 Andy Thornton -- Chicago Cubs
* 40 Bill Singer -- California Angels
* 41 Cesar Geronimo -- Cincinnati Reds
* 42 Joe Coleman -- Detroit Tigers
* 43 Cleon Jones -- New York Mets
* 44 Pat Dobson -- New York Yankees
* 45 Joe Rudi -- Oakland Athletics
* 46 Danny Ozark -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 47 Tommy John -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 48 Freddie Patek -- Kansas City Royals
* 49 Larry Dierker -- Houston Astros
* 50 Brooks Robinson -- Baltimore Orioles
* 51 Bob Forsch -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 52 Darrell Porter -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 53 Dave Giusti -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 54 Eric Soderholm -- Minnesota Twins
* 55 Bobby Bonds -- New York Yankees
* 56 Rick Wise -- Boston Red Sox
* 57 Dave Johnson -- Atlanta Braves
* 58 Chuck Taylor -- Montreal Expos
* 59 Ken Henderson -- Chicago White Sox
* 60 Fergie Jenkins -- Texas Rangers
* 61 Dave Winfield -- San Diego Padres
* 62 Fritz Peterson -- Cleveland Indians
* 63 Steve Swisher -- Chicago Cubs
* 64 Dave Chalk -- California Angels
* 65 Don Gullett -- Cincinnati Reds
* 66 Willie Horton -- Detroit Tigers
* 67 Tug McGraw -- New York Mets
* 68 Ron Blomberg -- New York Yankees
* 69 John Odom -- Oakland Athletics
* 70 Mike Schmidt -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 71 Charlie Hough -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 72 Jack McKeon -- Kansas City Royals
* 73 J.R. Richard -- Houston Astros
* 74 Mark Belanger -- Baltimore Orioles
* 75 Ted Simmons -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 76 Ed Sprague -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 77 Richie Zisk -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 78 Ray Corbin -- Minnesota Twins
* 79 Gary Matthew -- San Francisco Giants
* 80 Carlton Fisk -- Boston Red Sox
* 81 Ron Reed -- Atlanta Braves
* 82 Pat Kelly -- Chicago White Sox
* 83 Jim Merritt -- Texas Rangers
* 84 Enzo Hernandez -- San Diego Padres
* 85 Bill Bonham -- Chicago Cubs
** 86 Joe Lis -- Cleveland Indians
* 87 George Foster -- Cincinnati Reds
* 88 Tom Egan -- California Angels
* 89 Jim Ray -- Detroit Tigers
* 90 Rusty Staub -- New York Mets
* 91 Dick Green -- Oakland Athletics
* 92 Cecil Upshaw -- New York Yankees
* 93 Davey Lopes -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 94 Jim Lonborg -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 95 John Mayberry -- Kansas City Royals
* 96 Mike Cosgrove -- Houston Astros
* 97 Earl Williams -- Baltimore Orioles
* 98 Rich Folkers -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 99 Mike Hegan -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 100 Willie Stargell -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 101 Gene Mauch -- Montreal Expos
* 102 Joe Decker -- Minnesota Twins
* 103 Rick Miller -- Boston Red Sox
* 104 Bill Madlock -- Chicago Cubs
* 105 Buzz Capra -- Atlanta Braves
* 106 Mike Hargrove -- Texas Rangers
* 107 Jim Barr -- San Francisco Giants
* 108 Tom Hall -- Cincinnati Reds
* 109 George Hendrick -- Cleveland Indians
* 110 Wilbur Wood -- Chicago White Sox
* 111 Wayne Garrett -- New York Mets
* 112 Larry Hardy -- San Diego Padres
* 113 Elliott Maddox -- New York Yankees
* 114 Dick Lange -- California Angels
* 115 Joe Ferguson -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 116 Lerrin LaGrow -- Detroit Tigers
* 117 Earl Weaver -- Baltimore Orioles
* 118 Mike Anderson -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 119 Tommy Helms -- Houston Astros
* 120 Steve Busby -- Kansas City Royals
* 121 Bill North -- Oakland Athletics
* 122 Al Hrabosky -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 123 Johnny Briggs -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 124 Jerry Reuss -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 125 Ken Singleton -- Montreal Expos
* 126 Checklist 1-132
* 127 Glen Borgmann -- Minnesota Twins
* 128 Bill Lee -- Boston Red Sox
* 129 Rick Monday -- Chicago Cubs
* 130 Phil Niekro -- Atlanta Braves
* 131 Toby Harrah -- Texas Rangers
* 132 Randy Moffitt -- San Francisco Giants
* 133 Dan Driessen -- Cincinnati Reds
* 134 Ron Hodges -- New York Mets
* 135 Charlie Spikes -- Cleveland Indians
* 136 Jim Mason -- New York Yankees
* 137 Terry Forster -- Chicago White Sox
* 138 Del Unser -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 139 Horacio Pina -- California Angels
* 140 Steve Garvey -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 141 Mickey Stanley -- Detroit Tigers
* 142 Bob Reynolds -- Baltimore Orioles
* 143 Cliff Johnson -- Houston Astros
* 144 Jim Wohlford -- Kansas City Royals
* 145 Ken Holtzman -- Oakland Athletics
* 146 John McNamara -- San Diego Padres
* 147 Pedro Garcia -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 148 Jim Rooker -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 149 Tim Foli -- Montreal Expos
* 150 Bob Gibson -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 151 Steve Brye -- Minnesota Twins
* 152 Mario Guerrero -- Boston Red Sox
* 153 Rick Reuschel -- Chicago Cubs
* 154 Mike Lum -- Atlanta Braves
* 155 Jim Bibby -- Texas Rangers
* 156 Dave Kingman -- San Francisco Giants
* 157 Pedro Borbon -- Cincinnati Reds
* 158 Jerry Grote -- New York Mets
* 159 Steve Arlin -- Cleveland Indians
* 160 Graig Nettles -- New York Yankees
* 161 Stan Bahnsen -- Chicago White Sox
* 162 Willie Montanez -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 163 Jim Brewer -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 164 Mickey Rivers -- California Angels
* 165 Doug Rader -- Houston Astros
* 166 Woodie Fryman -- Detroit Tigers
* 167 Rich Coggins -- Baltimore Orioles
* 168 Bill Greif -- San Diego Padres
* 169 Cookie Rojas -- Kansas City Royals
* 170 Bert Campaneris -- Oakland Athletics
* 171 Ed Kirkpatrick -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 172 Darrel Johnson -- Boston Red Sox
* 173 Steve Rogers -- Montreal Expos
* 174 Bake McBride -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 175 Don Money -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 176 Burt Hooton -- Chicago Cubs
* 177 Vic Correll -- Atlanta Braves
* 178 Cesar Tovar -- Texas Rangers
* 179 Tom Bradley -- San Francisco Giants
* 180 Joe Morgan -- Cincinnati Reds
* 181 Fred Beene -- Cleveland Indians
* 182 Don Hahn -- New York Mets
* 183 Mel Stottlemyre -- New York Yankees
* 184 Jorge Orta -- Chicago White Sox
* 185 Steve Carlton -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 186 Willie Crawford -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 187 Denny Doyle -- California Angels
* 188 Tom Griffin -- Houston Astros
* 189 Berra/Campanella MVP
* 190 Sauer/Shantz MVPs
* 191 Campanella/Rosen MVP
* 192 Berra/Mays MVPs
* 193 Berra/Campanella MVP
* 194 Mantle/Newcombe MVPs
* 195 Mantle/Aaron MVPs
* 196 Banks/Jensen MVPs
* 197 Fox/Banks MVPs
* 198 Groat/Maris MVPs
* 199 Maris/Robinson MVPs
* 200 Mantle/Wills MVPs
* 201 Howard/Koufax MVPs
* 202 Boyer/Robinson MVPs
* 203 Mays/Versalles MVPs
* 204 Clemente/Robinson
* 205 Cepeda/Yastrzemski
* 206 Gibson/McLain MVPs
* 207 Killebrew/McCovey
* 208 Bench/Powell MVPs
* 209 Blue/Torre MVPs
* 210 Allen/Bench MVPs
* 211 Jackson/Rose MVPs
** 212 Burroughs/Garvey MVP
* 213 Oscar Gamble -- Cleveland Indians
* 214 Harry Parker -- New York Mets
* 215 Bobby Valentine -- California Angels
* 216 Giants Team -- San Francisco Giants
* 217 Lou Piniella -- New York Yankees
* 218 Jerry Johnson -- Houston Astros
* 219 Ed Herrmann -- Chicago White Sox
* 220 Don Sutton -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 221 Aurelio Rodriguez -- Detroit Tigers
* 222 Dan Spillner -- San Diego Padres
* 223 Robin Yount -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 224 Ramon Hernandez -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 225 Bob Grich -- Baltimore Orioles
* 226 Bill Campbell -- Minnesota Twins
* 227 Bob Watson -- Houston Astros
* 228 George Brett -- Kansas City Royals
* 229 Barry Foote -- Montreal Expos
* 230 Jim Hunter -- Oakland Athletics
* 231 Mike Tyson -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 232 Diego Segui -- Boston Red Sox
* 233 Billy Grabarkewitz -- Chicago Cubs
* 234 Tom Grieve -- Texas Rangers
* 235 Jack Billingham -- Cincinnati Reds
* 236 Dick Williams -- California Angels
* 237 Carl Morton -- Atlanta Braves
* 238 Dave Duncan -- Cleveland Indians
* 239 George Stone -- New York Mets
* 240 Garry Maddox -- San Francisco Giants
* 241 Dick Tidrow -- New York Yankees
* 242 Jay Johnstone -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 243 Jim Kaat -- Chicago White Sox
* 244 Bill Buckner -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 245 Mickey Lolich -- Detroit Tigers
* 246 Red Schoendienst -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 247 Enos Cabell -- Baltimore Orioles
* 248 Randy Jones -- San Diego Padres
* 249 Danny Thompson -- Minnesota Twins
* 250 Ken Brett -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 251 Fran Healy -- Kansas City Royals
* 252 Fred Scherman -- Houston Astros
* 253 Jesus Alou -- Oakland Athletics
* 254 Mike Torrez -- Montreal Expos
* 255 Dwight Evans -- Boston Red Sox
* 256 Billy Champion -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 257 Checklist 133-264
* 258 Dave LaRoche -- Chicago Cubs
* 259 Len Randle -- Texas Rangers
* 260 Johnny Bench -- Cincinnati Reds
* 261 Andy Hassler -- California Angels
* 262 Rowland Office -- Atlanta Braves
* 263 Jim Perry -- Cleveland Indians
* 264 John Milner -- New York Mets
** 265 Ron Bryant -- San Francisco Giants
** 266 Sandy Alomar -- New York Yankees
** 267 Dick Ruthven -- Philadelphia Phillies
** 268 Hal McRae -- Kansas City Royals
** 269 Doug Rau -- Los Angeles Dodgers
** 270 Ron Fairly -- Montreal Expos
* 271 Jerry Moses -- Detroit Tigers
* 272 Lynn McGlothen -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 273 Steve Braun -- Minnesota Twins
* 274 Vicente Romo -- San Diego Padres
** 275 Paul Blair -- Baltimore Orioles
** 276 Chuck Tanner -- Chicago White Sox
** 277 Frank Taveras -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 278 Paul Lindblad -- Oakland Athletics
* 279 Milt May -- Houston Astros
* 280 Carl Yastrzemski -- Boston Red Sox
** 281 Jim Slaton -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 282 Jerry Morales -- Chicago Cubs
** 283 Steve Foucault -- Texas Rangers
** 284 Ken Griffey -- Cincinnati Reds
** 285 Ellie Rodriguez -- California Angels
** 286 Mike Jorgensen -- Montreal Expos
** 287 Roric Harrison -- Atlanta Braves
** 288 Bruce Ellingsen -- Cleveland Indians
** 289 Ken Rudolph -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 290 Jon Matlack -- New York Mets
** 291 Bill Sudakis -- New York Yankees
** 292 Ron Schueler -- Philadelphia Phillies
** 293 Dick Sharon -- Detroit Tigers
** 294 Geoff Zahn -- Los Angeles Dodgers
** 295 Vada Pinson -- Kansas City Royals
* 296 Alan Foster -- St. Louis Cardinals
** 297 Craig Kusick -- Minnesota Twins
* 298 Johnny Grubb -- San Diego Padres
* 299 Bucky Dent -- Chicago White Sox
** 300 Reggie Jackson -- Oakland Athletics
* 301 Dave Roberts -- Houston Astros
** 302 Rick Burleson -- Boston Red Sox
* 303 Grant Jackson -- Baltimore Orioles
** 304 Danny Murtaugh -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 305 Jim Colborn -- Milwaukee Brewers
** 306 Carew/Garr
** 307 Allen/Schmidt
** 308 Bench/Burroughs
* 309 Brock/North
* 310 Hntr/Jnk/Msrsmth/Nkr
** 311 Capra/Hunter Ldrs
** 312 Ryan/Carlton Ldrs
* 313 Forster/Marshall
* 314 Buck Martinez -- Kansas City Royals
** 315 Don Kessinger -- Chicago Cubs
* 316 Jackie Brown -- Texas Rangers
* 317 Joe Lahoud -- California Angels
* 318 Ernie McAnally -- Montreal Expos
* 319 Johnny Oates -- Atlanta Braves
** 320 Pete Rose -- Cincinnati Reds
* 321 Rudy May -- New York Yankees
* 322 Ed Goodson -- San Francisco Giants
* 323 Fred Holdsworth -- Detroit Tigers
* 324 Ed Kranepool -- New York Mets
* 325 Tony Oliva -- Minnesota Twins
* 326 Wayne Twitchell -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 327 Jerry Hairston -- Chicago White Sox
* 328 Sonny Siebert -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 329 Ted Kubiak -- Oakland Athletics
* 330 Mike Marshall -- Los Angeles Dodgers
** 331 Frank Robinson -- Cleveland Indians
* 332 Fred Kendall -- San Diego Padres
* 333 Dick Drago -- Boston Red Sox
* 334 Greg Gross -- Houston Astros
** 335 Jim Palmer -- Baltimore Orioles
* 336 Rennie Stennett -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 337 Kevin Kobel -- Milwaukee Brewers
** 338 Rick Stelmaszek -- Chicago Cubs
** 339 Jim Fregosi -- Texas Rangers
* 340 Paul Splittorff -- Kansas City Royals
* 341 Hal Breeden -- Montreal Expos
* 342 Leroy Stanton -- California Angels
* 343 Danny Frisella -- San Diego Padres
* 344 Ben Oglivie -- Detroit Tigers
** 345 Clay Carroll -- Cincinnati Reds
* 346 Bobby Darwin -- Minnesota Twins
* 347 Mike Caldwell -- San Francisco Giants
* 348 Tony Muser -- Chicago White Sox
* 349 Ray Sadecki -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 350 Bobby Murcer -- San Francisco Giants
* 351 Bob Boone -- Philadelphia Phillies
** 352 Darold Knowles -- Chicago Cubs
* 353 Luis Melendez -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 354 Dick Bosman -- Cleveland Indians
* 355 Chris Cannizzaro -- San Diego Padres
* 356 Rico Petrocelli -- Boston Red Sox
* 357 Ken Forsch -- Houston Astros
* 358 Al Bumbry -- Baltimore Orioles
* 359 Paul Popovich -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 360 George Scott -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 361 Walter Alston -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 362 Steve Hargan -- Texas Rangers
** 363 Carmen Fanzone -- Chicago Cubs
** 364 Doug Bird -- Kansas City Royals
** 365 Bob Bailey -- Montreal Expos
* 366 Ken Sanders -- California Angels
** 367 Craig Robinson -- Atlanta Braves
* 368 Vic Albury -- Minnesota Twins
** 369 Merv Rettenmund -- Cincinnati Reds
* 370 Tom Seaver -- New York Mets
** 371 Gates Brown -- Detroit Tigers
** 372 John D'Acquisto -- San Francisco Giants
** 373 Bill Sharp -- Chicago White Sox
** 374 Eddie Watt -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 375 Roy White -- New York Yankees
** 376 Steve Yeager -- Los Angeles Dodgers
** 377 Tom Hilgendorf -- Cleveland Indians
* 378 Derrel Thomas -- San Diego Padres
** 379 Bernie Carbo -- Boston Red Sox
* 380 Sal Bando -- Oakland Athletics
** 381 John Curtis -- St. Louis Cardinals
** 382 Don Baylor -- Baltimore Orioles
** 383 Jim York -- Houston Astros
** 384 Del Crandall -- Milwaukee Brewers
** 385 Dock Ellis -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 386 Checklist 265-396
** 387 Jim Spencer -- Texas Rangers
** 388 Steve Stone -- Chicago Cubs
** 389 Tony Solaita -- Kansas City Royals
* 390 Ron Cey -- Los Angeles Dodgers
** 391 Don DeMola -- Montreal Expos
** 392 Bruce Bochte -- California Angels
* 393 Gary Gentry -- Atlanta Braves
** 394 Larvell Blanks -- Atlanta Braves
** 395 Bud Harrelson -- New York Mets
** 396 Fred Norman -- Cincinnati Reds
* 397 Bill Freehan -- Detroit Tigers
** 398 Elias Sosa -- St. Louis Cardinals
** 399 Terry harmon -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 400 Dick Allen -- Chicago White Sox
* 401 Mike Wallace -- New York Yankees
** 402 Bob Tolan -- San Diego Padres
* 403 Tom Buskey -- Cleveland Indians
* 404 Ted Sizemore -- St. Louis Cardinals
** 405 John Montague -- Montreal Expos
* 406 Bob Gallagher -- New York Mets
* 407 Herb Washington -- Oakland Athletics
** 408 Clyde Wright -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 409 Bob Robertson -- Pittsburgh Pirates
** 410 Mike Cuellar -- Baltimore Orioles
* 411 George Mitterwald -- Chicago Cubs
** 412 Bill Hands -- Texas Rangers
** 413 Marty Pattin -- Kansas City Royals
* 414 Manny Mota -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 415 John Hiller -- Detroit Tigers
* 416 Larry Lintz -- Montreal Expos
** 417 Skip Lockwood -- California Angels
* 418 Leo Foster -- Atlanta Braves
** 419 Dave Goltz -- Minnesota Twins
** 420 Larry Bowa -- Philadelphia Phillies
** 421 Yogi Berra -- New York Mets Team
* 422 Brian Downing -- Chicago White Sox
** 423 Clay Kirby -- Cincinnati Reds
* 424 John Lowenstein -- Cleveland Indians
** 425 Tito Fuentes -- San Francisco Giants
** 426 George Medich -- New York Yankees
** 427 Clarence Gaston -- Atlanta Braves
** 428 Dave Hamilton -- Oakland Athletics
** 429 Jim Dwyer -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 430 Luis Tiant -- Boston Red Sox
** 431 Rod Gilbreath -- Atlanta Braves
* 432 Ken Berry -- Milwaukee Brewers
** 433 Larry Demery -- Pittsburgh Pirates
** 434 Bob Locker -- Chicago Cubs
** 435 Dave Nelson -- Texas Rangers
** 436 Ken Failing -- Chicago Cubs
** 437 Al Cowens -- Kansas City Royals
** 438 Don Carrithers -- Montreal Expos
** 439 Ed Brinkman -- Detroit Tigers
* 440 Andy Messersmith -- Los Angeles Dodgers
** 441 Bobby Heise -- California Angels
** 442 Maximino Leon -- Atlanta Braves
* 443 Frank Quilici -- Minnesota Twins
* 444 Gene Garber -- Philadelphia Phillies
* 445 Felix Millan -- New York Mets
** 446 Bart Johnson -- Chicago White Sox
* 447 Terry Crowley -- Cincinnati Reds
* 448 Frank Duffy -- Cleveland Indians
* 449 Charlie Williams -- San Francisco Giants
* 450 Willie McCovey -- San Diego Padres
* 451 Rick Dempsey -- New York Yankees
** 452 Angel Mangual -- Oakland Athletics
** 453 Claude Osteen -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 454 Doug Griffin -- Boston Red Sox
* 455 Don Wilson -- Houston Astros
* 456 Bob Coluccio -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 457 Mario Mendoza -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 458 Ross Grimsley -- Baltimore Orioles
* 459 A.L. Championships
** 460 Steve Garvey -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 461 Reggie Jackson -- Oakland Athletics
* 462 W.S. Game 2
* 463 Rollie Fingers -- Oakland Athletics
* 464 W.S. Game 4
* 465 W.S. Game 5
* 466 W.S. Summary
* 467 Ed Halicki -- San Francisco Giants
* 468 Bobby Mitchell -- Milwaukee Brewers
* 469 Tom Dettore -- Chicago Cubs
** 470 Jeff Burroughs -- Texas Rangers
** 471 Bob Stinson -- Montreal Expos
* 472 Bruce Dal Canton -- Kansas City Royals
* 473 Ken McMullen -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 474 Luke Walker -- Detroit Tigers
* 475 Darrell Evans -- Atlanta Braves
* 476 Ed Figueroa -- California Angels
** 477 Tom Hutton -- Philadelphia Phillies
** 478 Tom Burgmeier -- Minnesota Twins
* 479 Ken Boswell -- Houston Astros
* 480 Carlos May -- Chicago White Sox
** 481 Will McEnaney -- Cincinnati Reds
* 482 Tom McCraw -- Cleveland Indians
** 483 Steve Ontiveros -- San Francisco Giants
** 484 Glenn Beckert -- San Diego Padres
* 485 Sparky Lyle -- New York Yankees
* 486 Ray Fosse -- Oakland Athletics
* 487 Preston Gomez -- Houston Astros
** 488 Bill Travers -- Milwaukee Brewers
** 489 Cecil Cooper -- Boston Red Sox
** 490 Reggie Smith -- St. Louis Cardinals
* 491 Doyle Alexander -- Baltimore Orioles
* 492 Rich Hebner -- Pittsburgh Pirates
** 493 Don Stanhouse -- Texas Rangers
** 494 Pete La---k -- Chicago Cubs
* 495 Nelson Briles -- Kansas City Royals
* 496 Pepe Frias -- Montreal Expos
** 497 Jim Nettles -- Detroit Tigers
** 498 Al Downing -- Los Angeles Dodgers
* 499 Marty Perez -- Atlanta Braves
** 500 Nolan Ryan -- California Angels
* 501 Bill Robinson -- Philadelphia Phillies
** 502 Pat Bourque -- Oakland Athletics
** 503 Fred Stanley -- New York Yankees
** 504 Buddy Bradford -- Chicago White Sox
* 505 Chris Speier -- San Francisco Giants
** 506 Leron Lee -- Cleveland Indians
** 507 Tom Carroll -- Cincinnati Reds
** 508 Bob Hansen -- Milwaukee Brewers
** 509 Dave Hilton -- San Diego Padres
** 510 Vida Blue -- Oakland Athletics
* 511 Billy Martin -- Texas Rangers
** 512 Larry Milbourne -- Houston Astros
** 513 Dick Pole -- Boston Red Sox
* 514 Jose Cruz -- Houston Astros
** 515 Manny Sanguillen -- Pittsburgh Pirates
** 516 Don Hood -- Baltimore Orioles
** 517 Checklist 397-528
** 518 Leo Cardenas -- Texas Rangers
** 519 Jim Todd -- Chicago Cubs
** 520 Amos Otis -- Kansas City Royals
* 521 Dennis Blair -- Montreal Expos
* 522 Gary Sutherland -- Detroit Tigers
** 523 Tom Paciorek -- Los Angeles Dodgers
** 524 John Doherty -- California Angels
** 525 Tom House -- Atlanta Braves
** 526 Larry Hisle -- Minnesota Twins
** 527 Mac Scarce -- Philadelphia Phillies
** 528 Eddie Leon -- Chicago White Sox
** 529 Gary Thomasson -- San Francisco Giants
** 530 Gaylord Perry -- Cleveland Indians
** 531 Sparky Anderson -- Cincinnati Reds
** 532 Gorman Thomas -- Milwaukee Brewers
** 533 Rudy Meoli -- California Angels
** 534 Alex Johnson -- New York Yankees
** 535 Gene Tenace -- Oakland Athletics
** 536 Bob Moose -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 537 Tommy Harper -- Boston Red Sox
** 538 Duffy Dyer -- Pittsburgh Pirates
** 539 Jesse Jefferson -- Baltimore Orioles
** 540 Lou Brock -- St. Louis Cardinals
** 541 Roger Metzger -- Houston Astros
** 542 Pete Broberg -- Texas Rangers
** 543 Larry Biittner -- Montreal Expos
** 544 Steve Mingori -- Kansas City Royals
** 545 Billy Williams -- Oakland Athletics
** 546 John Knox -- Detroit Tigers
** 547 Von Joshua -- Los Angeles Dodgers
** 548 Charlie Sands -- California Angels
** 549 Bill Butler -- Minnesota Twins
** 550 Ralph Garr -- Atlanta Braves
** 551 Larry Christenson -- Philadelphia Phillies
** 552 Jack Brohamer -- Cleveland Indians
** 553 John Boccabella -- San Francisco Giants
** 554 Rich Gossage -- Chicago White Sox
** 555 Al Oliver -- Pittsburgh Pirates
** 556 Tim Johnson -- Milwaukee Brewers
** 557 Larry Gura -- New York Yankees
** 558 Dave Roberts -- San Diego Padres
** 559 Bob Montgomery -- Boston Red Sox
** 560 Tony Perez -- Cincinnati Reds
** 561 Alvin Dark -- Oakland Athletics
** 562 Gary Nolan -- Cincinnati Reds
** 563 Wilbur Howard -- Houston Astros
* 564 Tommy Davis -- Baltimore Orioles
** 565 Joe Torre -- New York Mets
** 566 Ray Burris -- Chicago Cubs
** 567 Jim Sundberg -- Texas Rangers
** 568 Dale Murray -- Montreal Expos
** 569 Frank White -- Kansas City Royals
** 570 Jim Wynn -- Los Angeles Dodgers
** 571 Dave Lemanczyk -- Detroit Tigers
** 572 Roger Nelson -- Chicago White Sox
** 573 Orlando Pena -- California Angels
** 574 Tony Taylor -- Philadelphia Phillies
** 575 Gene Clines -- New York Mets
** 576 Phil Roof -- Minnesota Twins
** 577 John Morris -- San Francisco Giants
** 578 Dave Tomlin -- San Diego Padres
** 579 Skip Pitlock -- Chicago White Sox
** 580 Frank Robinson -- Cleveland Indians
** 581 Darrel Chaney -- Cincinnati Reds
** 582 Eduardo Rodriguez -- Milwaukee Brewers
** 583 Andy Etchebarren -- Baltimore Orioles
** 584 Mike Garman -- St. Louis Cardinals
** 585 Chris Chambliss -- New York Yankees
** 586 Tim McCarver -- Boston Red Sox
** 587 Chris Ward -- Chicago Cubs
** 588 Rick Auerbach -- Los Angeles Dodgers
** 589 Clyde King -- Atlanta Braves
** 590 Cesar Cedeno -- Houston Astros
** 591 Glenn Abbott -- Oakland Athletics
** 592 Balor Moore -- Montreal Expos
** 593 Gene Lamont -- Detroit Tigers
** 594 Jim Fuller -- Baltimore Orioles
** 595 Joe Niekro -- Atlanta Braves
** 596 Ollie Brown -- Philadelphia Phillies
** 597 Winston Llenas -- California Angels
** 598 Bruce Kison -- Pittsburgh Pirates
** 599 Nate Colbert -- Detroit Tigers
** 600 Rod Carew -- Minnesota Twins
** 601 Juan Benequez -- Boston Red Sox
** 602 John Vukovich -- Cincinnati Reds
** 603 Lew Krausse -- Atlanta Braves
** 604 Oscar Zamora -- Chicago Cubs
** 605 John Ellis -- Cleveland Indians
** 606 Bruce Miller -- San Francisco Giants
** 607 Jim Holt -- Oakland Athletics
** 608 Gene Michael -- New York Yankees
** 609 Ellie Hendricks -- Baltimore Orioles
** 610 Ron Hunt -- St. Louis Cardinals
** 611 Bill Virdon -- New York Yankees
** 612 Terry Hughes -- Boston Red Sox
** 613 Bill Parsons -- Oakland Athletics
** 614 Kuck/Milr/Ruhl/Sibrt -- Houston Astros
** 615 Drcy/Lnrd/Undrwd/Web -- Philadelphia Phillies
** 616 Jim Rice -- Boston Red Sox
** 617 Doug DeCinces -- Baltimore Orioles
** 618 Eastrly/McGrgr/Rhodn
** 619 Ayla/Nymn/Smth/Turnr
** 620 Gary Carter -- Montreal Expos
** 621 Dny/Estwk/Krn/Vntdos
** 622 Fred Lynn -- Boston Red Sox
** 623 Keith Hernandez -- St. Louis Cardinals
** 624 Knczny/Lvle/Otn/Slmn
** 625 Boog Powell -- Baltimore Orioles
** 626 Larry Haney -- Oakland Athletics
** 627 Tom Walker -- Montreal Expos
** 628 Ron LeFlore -- Detroit Tigers
** 629 Joe Hoerner -- Kansas City Royals
** 630 Greg Luzinski -- Philadelphia Phillies
** 631 Lee Lacy -- Los Angeles Dodgers
** 632 Morris Nettles -- California Angels
** 633 Paul Casanova -- Atlanta Braves
** 634 Cy Acosta -- Chicago White Sox
** 635 Chuck Dobson -- California Angels
** 636 Charlie Moore -- Milwaukee Brewers
** 637 Ted Martinez -- New York Mets
** 638 Jim Marshall -- Chicago Cubs Team
** 639 Steve Kline -- Cleveland Indians
** 640 Harmon Killebrew -- Minnesota Twins
** 641 Jim Northrup -- Baltimore Orioles
** 642 Mike Phillips -- San Francisco Giants
** 643 Brent Strom -- San Diego Padres
** 644 Bill Fahey -- Texas Rangers
** 645 Danny Cater -- Boston Red Sox
** 646 Checklist 529-660
** 647 Claudell Washington -- Oakland Athletics
** 648 Dave Pagan -- New York Yankees
** 649 Jack Heidemann -- St. Louis Cardinals
** 650 Dave May -- Atlanta Braves
** 651 John Morlan -- Pittsburgh Pirates
** 652 Lindy McDaniel -- Kansas City Royals
** 653 Lee Richard -- Chicago White Sox
** 654 Jerry Terrell -- Minnesota Twins
** 655 Rico Carty -- Cleveland Indians
** 656 Bill Plummer -- Cincinnati Reds
** 657 Bob Oliver -- Baltimore Orioles
** 658 Vic Harris -- Chicago Cubs
** 659 Bob Apodaca -- New York Mets
** 660 Hank Aaron -- Milwaukee Brewers
Hopefully we could get others to put up other sets. I may try to put together an Excel ss that we can distribute, as well.
<< <i>I'm just curious as to what % error we can still call "authentication", true authentication ---- 1%, 5%, 10%? >>
What you pay for is an educated opinion, not necessarily a guarantee with authentication services. Unless a company carries out some form of Quality Assurance / Quality Control specifically designed to test their accuracy it's always going to remain speculation as to how "good" they are. An analytical lab will add samples with known concentrations of a chemical for example to the samples being analyzed, from this they can determine numerically the accuracy of their equipment or process. In this application it may be possible to design a QA/QC program where the company seeds the submissions with known bogus packs to in effect test the accuracy of an authentication process.
At the end of the day it's up to the individual whether an 89% or 99% accuracy rate is comforting enough to them to allow them to buy unopened. If one isn't comfortable with the risk, don't buy.
I've loaded the document to google docs. It is an excel file with a tab for each year. For some reason, when i set it up in google docs, it takes away the tabs and just posts the sheets back to back but you can see where the set changes. It is in order by year. if you want it emailed to you, just PM me with your address and i'll send it to you.
Here is the link:
75 to 79 list
Jim
Topps Archives
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Arthur
<< <i>Jim, that is outstanding. Thank you very much for sharing it with us. If I PM you my email address do you think you could email the Excel ss to me so I could have it with tabs?
Arthur >>
You can click file at the top left of the google doc and download it.
<< <i>I've been reading many of the threads on this board and others about the authenticity of cello packs from the late 1970s. It's no secret that many packs, graded or otherwise, are fake. There have been some good threads that have talked about the markings used on the cello pack itself to help determine the year. What I am interested in knowing more about is the cards that an appear on the top of a cello pack. What i've taken from the threads and research is the following:
from 1975-1977 only cards with a double asterisk (**) can appear on the top of a cello pack. I've looked at many of the packs sold on ebay, both graded and ungraded and looked at all the 1975 packs that Fritsch is selling and that seems to hold up with the exception of some star cards. Can anyone point me to a pack from 1975-1977 with a card on top that doesn't have a double asterisk and the player is not a star. For example, i've seen packs with Robin Yount, Thurman Munson and Dave Winfield all from 1975 and they all have single asterisks on them and the same with 1977 Nolan Ryan packs. i'm looking for an example of a common player to test whether what i've seen is true rather than only seeing star players that don't fit the pattern.
In 1978 and 1979 only cards with a D,E,F can appear on the top of a cello pack. Again, looking at packs sold this trend holds up for common players and most stars. But players like 1978 Eddie Murray, Tom Seaver and 1979 Ozzie Smith cards appear on the top of cellos but have an A, B or C. Does anyone have any examples of common players with an A, B or C that they can show.
Thanks for any information you can provide. I'm just trying to get to information that can either prove or disprove what i'm seeing using actual examples that exist.
Jim >>
I hate to play devils advocate here gentlemen, but who says only double asterisk cards can be on the top of these cellos.
Who says only sheet D E F cards can appear on the top of a cello from these years?
Can anybody point me to a reliable source who says this is always the case?
Lastly, if anyone can provide a reliable source, or documentation proving that this is always the case.......does anyone here honestly believe Steve Hart would NOT know this, authenticate the pack anyways?
I understand some things will slip by even the best, but it is being insinuated that Steve Hart does not know these things.....which is laughable at best.
I hate to state the obvious here gentlemen, but Steve Hart has seen and handled more vintage unopened product than everyone on this board combined.
Again, somebody please point me to documented proof that certain sheets ALWAYS appear on top, with no exceptions. I do not care for the opinion of someone who has opened a box, or a case and based their facts on that alone.
<< <i>
<< <i>I've been reading many of the threads on this board and others about the authenticity of cello packs from the late 1970s. It's no secret that many packs, graded or otherwise, are fake. There have been some good threads that have talked about the markings used on the cello pack itself to help determine the year. What I am interested in knowing more about is the cards that an appear on the top of a cello pack. What i've taken from the threads and research is the following:
from 1975-1977 only cards with a double asterisk (**) can appear on the top of a cello pack. I've looked at many of the packs sold on ebay, both graded and ungraded and looked at all the 1975 packs that Fritsch is selling and that seems to hold up with the exception of some star cards. Can anyone point me to a pack from 1975-1977 with a card on top that doesn't have a double asterisk and the player is not a star. For example, i've seen packs with Robin Yount, Thurman Munson and Dave Winfield all from 1975 and they all have single asterisks on them and the same with 1977 Nolan Ryan packs. i'm looking for an example of a common player to test whether what i've seen is true rather than only seeing star players that don't fit the pattern.
In 1978 and 1979 only cards with a D,E,F can appear on the top of a cello pack. Again, looking at packs sold this trend holds up for common players and most stars. But players like 1978 Eddie Murray, Tom Seaver and 1979 Ozzie Smith cards appear on the top of cellos but have an A, B or C. Does anyone have any examples of common players with an A, B or C that they can show.
Thanks for any information you can provide. I'm just trying to get to information that can either prove or disprove what i'm seeing using actual examples that exist.
Jim >>
I hate to play devils advocate here gentlemen, but who says only double asterisk cards can be on the top of these cellos.
Who says only sheet D E F cards can appear on the top of a cello from these years?
Can anybody point me to a reliable source who says this is always the case?
Lastly, if anyone can provide a reliable source, or documentation proving that this is always the case.......does anyone here honestly believe Steve Hart would NOT know this, authenticate the pack anyways?
I understand some things will slip by even the best, but it is being insinuated that Steve Hart does not know these things.....which is laughable at best.
I hate to state the obvious here gentlemen, but Steve Hart has seen and handled more vintage unopened product than everyone on this board combined.
Again, somebody please point me to documented proof that certain sheets ALWAYS appear on top, with no exceptions. I do not care for the opinion of someone who has opened a box, or a case and based their facts on that alone. >>
I understand your doubts, but for the purposes of this thread and information sharing among collectors I think it's best to just leave PSA and Steve Hart out of this thread altogether. I'm much less concerned with what they think than I am with what we, as a group of collectors, might be able to discover.
I hate to play devils advocate here gentlemen, but who says only double asterisk cards can be on the top of these cellos.
Who says only sheet D E F cards can appear on the top of a cello from these years?
Can anybody point me to a reliable source who says this is always the case?
Lastly, if anyone can provide a reliable source, or documentation proving that this is always the case.......does anyone here honestly believe Steve Hart would NOT know this, authenticate the pack anyways?
I understand some things will slip by even the best, but it is being insinuated that Steve Hart does not know these things.....which is laughable at best.
I hate to state the obvious here gentlemen, but Steve Hart has seen and handled more vintage unopened product than everyone on this board combined.
Again, somebody please point me to documented proof that certain sheets ALWAYS appear on top, with no exceptions. I do not care for the opinion of someone who has opened a box, or a case and based their facts on that alone. >>
That's a fair point and part of what i'm trying to figure out. I don't know. I'm just giving my observations on what i've seen on the packs that I have seen for sale on ebay and looked at on VCP and looked at on a website like Fritsch's. I know when I read threads about rack packs that people have real good information about the cards that should be in each section and in some cases can list out which cards will be in the pack (i.e. how many cards down in a 75 rack pack a George Brett card would be).
I'm assuming (maybe incorrectly) that if rack packs have that pattern then so do cellos. It probably isn't always the case and that's why i'd like to see a pack that doesn't fit the trend we see. As poor as quality control at Topps was back in the 70s, i'm sure meeting the 'always' standard is hard to do. The fact is that most of what i've learned about this hobby has come from other people's experience. I guess I didn't pay as much attention to it when I was younger to be an expert.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I've been reading many of the threads on this board and others about the authenticity of cello packs from the late 1970s. It's no secret that many packs, graded or otherwise, are fake. There have been some good threads that have talked about the markings used on the cello pack itself to help determine the year. What I am interested in knowing more about is the cards that an appear on the top of a cello pack. What i've taken from the threads and research is the following:
from 1975-1977 only cards with a double asterisk (**) can appear on the top of a cello pack. I've looked at many of the packs sold on ebay, both graded and ungraded and looked at all the 1975 packs that Fritsch is selling and that seems to hold up with the exception of some star cards. Can anyone point me to a pack from 1975-1977 with a card on top that doesn't have a double asterisk and the player is not a star. For example, i've seen packs with Robin Yount, Thurman Munson and Dave Winfield all from 1975 and they all have single asterisks on them and the same with 1977 Nolan Ryan packs. i'm looking for an example of a common player to test whether what i've seen is true rather than only seeing star players that don't fit the pattern.
In 1978 and 1979 only cards with a D,E,F can appear on the top of a cello pack. Again, looking at packs sold this trend holds up for common players and most stars. But players like 1978 Eddie Murray, Tom Seaver and 1979 Ozzie Smith cards appear on the top of cellos but have an A, B or C. Does anyone have any examples of common players with an A, B or C that they can show.
Thanks for any information you can provide. I'm just trying to get to information that can either prove or disprove what i'm seeing using actual examples that exist.
Jim >>
I hate to play devils advocate here gentlemen, but who says only double asterisk cards can be on the top of these cellos.
Who says only sheet D E F cards can appear on the top of a cello from these years?
Can anybody point me to a reliable source who says this is always the case?
Lastly, if anyone can provide a reliable source, or documentation proving that this is always the case.......does anyone here honestly believe Steve Hart would NOT know this, authenticate the pack anyways?
I understand some things will slip by even the best, but it is being insinuated that Steve Hart does not know these things.....which is laughable at best.
I hate to state the obvious here gentlemen, but Steve Hart has seen and handled more vintage unopened product than everyone on this board combined.
Again, somebody please point me to documented proof that certain sheets ALWAYS appear on top, with no exceptions. I do not care for the opinion of someone who has opened a box, or a case and based their facts on that alone. >>
I understand your doubts, but for the purposes of this thread and information sharing among collectors I think it's best to just leave PSA and Steve Hart out of this thread altogether. I'm much less concerned with what they think than I am with what we, as a group of collectors, might be able to discover. >>
I completely understand, and agree that knowledge is power.
The thing that troubles me on this stuff is the absolutes that are passed around on this board from time to time.
I remember reading a thread on this subject some time ago. The whole "only cards from this sheet can be on top" point was being made by the pack sealer himself.
Personally, I have seen cellos with cards face up on the bottom and top, cards upside down in packs, etc. etc. Until we have documented proof that x sheet cards were on top, or bottom EVERY time.....all we have is speculation.
The guy who was the supposed expert on these around here turned out to be the dirtiest of them all. We can say that xx sheet cards are on top MOST of the time for sure....but nobody can say this is always the case.
For any packs that are questionable, doubtful, etc.....I will take my chances with Steve Hart any day of the week. Is he perfect, no, but his integrity and knowledge of the product is second to none.
<< <i>Again, the topic of this thread has nothing to do with PSA or Steve Hart. Most hobby knowledge is discovered by a grou of collectors getting together and comparing notes/theories. I will say this, I looked for a non-sequence cello pack that didn't involve a star card for months on ebay and never saw a single one. We're talking about hundreds of packs. Is that infallible? Of course not. But it's better to have a solid theory to work off of than to dismiss something because there's a minute chance it's not correct. >>
Understood, and I respect and appreciate the efforts you have taken to try and research.
To be fair, however, hundreds of packs is a drop in a bucket. These were produced in case form by the thousands, and were made 40 years ago.
Just saying, there is more than a minute chance.
Again, everything said with utmost respect.
Either way, it's a fascinating avenue that hasn't been explored and should prove to be a fun exercise since our kind usually enjoys this type of minutia. It will also undoubtedly be an on-going work that hopefully we'll be able to add to and explore more in time. But it clearly warrants discussion and I'd hate to see another thread go away because some people got off-topic.
I also agree that my hundreds of packs are a drop in a bucket. But this is something that I only just recently started to monitor and the results so far have been curious, to say the least.
I agree with that comment 100%
Can we say from the input and analysis so far that the rule for 1975 Cello packs is looking like that only cards with a double asterisk (**) can appear on the top of these cello packs unless there was "an exceptions to the rule" at the Topps factory during production of the packs? If so, the next question for discussion is how do you tell a factory "exception to the rule" from a fake? Also, if we are able to tell an "exception to the rule" from a fake why does the top card even matter? Its amazing that ANY pack can be authenticated! After this, I have more respect for people who put their reputations on the line authenticating these then ever before. Wow!
* 375 Roy White -- New York Yankees
* 74 Mark Belanger -- Baltimore Orioles
For myself, it comes down to this: if it looks to good to be true, it probably is.
There is a lot more information out there beyond sequence. Is it the right wrapper, how is the seal. Folks here with a lot of knowledge, like Tim for one, have shared that knowledge in the hopes that fellow collectors don't get burned.
I used this example in a PM, but I'll use it again. Please think about it for a second:
People counterfeit money, often. With over a dozen security features built into the currency and the Secret Service on your butt for doing it. Do you really think cardboard and/or cellophane would be all that hard to get by if someone had both the skill and motive?
One more thought: who here has not gotten back a PSA 5 they thought was a 9, but missed the tiniest wrinkle? Graders are people too.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
* 85 Bill Bonham -- Chicago Cubs
* 8 Rogelio Moret -- Boston Red Sox
* 336 Rennie Stennett -- Pittsburgh Pirates
* 237 Carl Morton -- Atlanta Braves
<< <i>
Understood, and I respect and appreciate the efforts you have taken to try and research.
To be fair, however, hundreds of packs is a drop in a bucket. These were produced in case form by the thousands, and were made 40 years ago.
Just saying, there is more than a minute chance. >>
Hundreds of packs is not a "drop in the bucket" just because it's a small percentage of all packs produced. Without quoting probability and statistics theory, just apply common sense. Let's say a million two-headed coins are made. You flip a hundred and every one comes up heads. You've only tested .01% of the group, but wouldn't you be fairly certain the coins were not legit even so?
Point is there may be a main path, but rest assured there are many paths from the Topps plant to the marketplace, and not much of anyone really cared that much about how it all happened.
However, I really am forgetting what we are trying to prove here. The fun is wearing off and again... I haven't scratched the surface!.
* 454 Doug Griffin -- Boston Red Sox
<< <i>I'm sure that the workers at the Topps plant in 1975 cared about about perfect collation and would have destroyed any boxes created that broke the */** rule.
Point is there may be a main path, but rest assured there are many paths from the Topps plant to the marketplace, and not much of anyone really cared that much about how it all happened. >>
There are certain realities about the way product was produced that stem from facts of process, not whether anyone cared about the result.
<< <i>For myself, it comes down to this: if it looks to good to be true, it probably is. >>
As far as rules go.... This one is the one that makes the most sense to me at this time! Well stated Sir!