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My 1816 Large Cent

mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I've been working on trying to attribute my 1816 Large in VG.From the pictures I saw of the various Newcomb varieties for 1816 LC,I'm seing that my coin doesn't match any of them.

All of the attributed-by-Newcomb variety Large Cents used in the images have a very distinct dot between "ONE" and "CENT." I can find no evidence on my 1816 Large Cent that there ever was a dot between "ONE" and "CENT." Even though the coin is only VG,I still hould be able to see a dot.

New Variety here? 1816 "No Dot"?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

Comments

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting that 1816 is the first year of the so-called Liberty Head Large Cents.It may be that the first ones were made with "No Dot" and the dot was added for who knows what reason later.

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is there such a thing as a book chronicling the history of the dot on coins?The Canadians have used dots on their coins.Why wouldn't we?

    It so happens there are 9 known Newcomb varieties for 1816 Large Cents.

    I noticed the dot in the images I saw first thing.Every single Newcomb variety for 1816 has a dot.Then I look for the dot on my coin and find none.More importantly,no evidence can be see that there ever was a dot on my '16.

    Anyone here up on Early American Copper?

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hint-you may get a reply if you supply pics!!
    image
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • lostincoinslostincoins Posts: 4,278 ✭
    Yours looks better.
    image
    image
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "AMERICA" does not meld into the rim,as struck,so the old matron says.Definitely not N-3.Also,I ruled out N-2 because there is no die break to be seen just right of the date on my coin.The die break can be seen clearly on N-2 in the images I saw.No photo for N-1 is available,unfortunately.

    If anyone here has images of an 1816 N-1,feel free to post it here.By the time I got to N-4,I had noticed N-2 and N-3 had the dot and so do the rest of the Newcomb varieties for 1816.

    I realize my images are fuzzy but I can't fix that until I get new camera.

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Check the spacing of the digits in the date on both of the coins posted thus far.First "1" is farther away from the "8" than the second "1" on both coins.

    Also,I don't see a dot on the second 1816 either.Would the dot have once been there between the "ONE" and "CENT" and have worn away on our coins?

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The spacing of the digits in the date seems to be different on the two coins.

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If there is a difference in distance from the 8 to the two 1's,it is most obvious on the second coin.The digits in the date on my coin are actually quite evenly spaced.The second coin digit spacing appears to careless to me.Notice how close the 6 and the second 1 are.

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • lostincoinslostincoins Posts: 4,278 ✭
    no dot on mine mr 1874 and does not look like there was one
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Using the digit spacing in the date,I've concluded that my coin could be an N-6.I haven't seen an N-1,however.

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    lostincoins,your coin appears to be an N-8 to me.Again,the digit spacing and angle of the digits is telling the story about which variety it is.

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • joecopperjoecopper Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭
    mr - this is an 1816 N6

    Leaf diagnostics D - C, S - PC, F - NR, C - NR
    center, past center, near right
    Also on most die states except really early the dentils are merged below left ribbon

    E in States is high - also E is tilted a hair left
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    thanks joecopper.Now I understand why grading service gets handome amount for attributing by die variety.

    Is it true that most copper guys don't want their coins in a slab?

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>thanks joecopper.Now I understand why grading service gets handome amount for attributing by die variety.

    Is it true that most copper guys don't want their coins in a slab? >>



    imo it is a combination of don't want/don't need
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm thinking that Large Cents that aren't RD or RB are best left out of slab.That's my opinion,for what its worth.

    Handle these delightful coins with care and everything will be fine.

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • joecopperjoecopper Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭
    mr - I think that it generally true that a majority of copper collectors prefer their coins unslabbed. There is, however, a move by some to slab using PCGS. I expect that it may continue but hope not. I preferred mine unslabbed but did have a few in slabs, generally the rarer ones which were purchased thusly. Also, when selling many get slabbed to appeal to the non-copper folks. There is no question that TPG grading is not as strict as EAC primarily in grades F15 to mint state.
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why do some of the Liberty Large Cents have the dot between "ONE" and "CENT" and others don't?The image of 1816 N-6 that I was looking at to help attribute my 1816 has a distinct dot.Mine doesn't have a dot and from what I can tell,never did.

    What's up with the dot on early Large Cents?

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,801 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From what I've read, center dots are put in the die by the engraver as a means to use a compass to rule out the positions of peripheral letters, stars, etc. Recall that on these early coins, only the center images were 'hubbed', all the outside images were later added by hand punching.

    Why do some show it and others don't? Not really sure - I'd surmise is some cases the dots were burnished off, or later lapping of the dies reduced or eliminated them altogether. Maybe some engravers made very small dots that easily wore off - either from the die with time, or
    from the coins, through circulation. Hopefully some more knowledgeable guys will chime in and educate all of us!


    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780 ✭


    << <i>From what I've read, center dots are put in the die by the engraver as a means to use a compass to rule out the positions of peripheral letters, stars, etc. Recall that on these early coins, only the center images were 'hubbed', all the outside images were later added by hand punching.

    Why do some show it and others don't? Not really sure - I'd surmise is some cases the dots were burnished off, or later lapping of the dies reduced or eliminated them altogether. Maybe some engravers made very small dots that easily wore off - either from the die with time, or
    from the coins, through circulation. Hopefully some more knowledgeable guys will chime in and educate all of us! >>



    So...it is not unlike the CNC hole under a MIJ or MIM Fender pick guard?

    Eric
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,894 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Often the centering dot is impressed and apparent. Sometimes it is not due to wear, strike, die maintenance, grease, etc. Nothing special going on here.

    Here's another N6 to compare yours to.
    Lance.

    imageimage
    Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,801 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I will also add for the OP, that the dot is not confined to the reverse, or even to large cents. I think it's readily apparent on them because the rev of the large cents is an open field, and a dot is not easily obscured by eagle feathers, etc.
    For kicks, look at some of the high grade early quarters in the upcoming Heritage auction.

    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Makes sense that the dot was used for alignment purposes.I did notice that some of the dots I saw in images of the various varieties of 1816 Large Cent were faint.All of them had the dot though so not finding one on my coin,i started to dream that i had something special over and above it being just an N-6.

    Lance,thanks for the great image of 1816 N-6. Trade you straight across,i pay for all shipping,mine without the dot for yours with the dot.image

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.

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