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Are there ANY consequences for shill bidding?
McDonnellFarm
Posts: 13
So I'm looking at a PSA 9 1975 OPC Nolan Ryan card in eBay completed items when I see the same card was listed a month later by the same seller. The winning bidder of the card has 92% of their bidding with the seller and bid again on the card the second time it was listed, even though they WON the card a month earlier. Are there absolutely ZERO consequences for stuff like this? It makes me want to quit the hobby like so many others have.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-O-Pee-Chee-Nolan-Ryan-California-Angels-500-PSA-9-no-10s-/190857295009
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-O-Pee-Chee-Nolan-Ryan-California-Angels-500-PSA-9-no-10s-/190872583147
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-O-Pee-Chee-Nolan-Ryan-California-Angels-500-PSA-9-no-10s-/190857295009
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-O-Pee-Chee-Nolan-Ryan-California-Angels-500-PSA-9-no-10s-/190872583147
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Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
To be honest, no direction, but...
1966-69 Topps EX+
1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9
All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
I think it most means they want to scam people out of money by jacking up the price.
Self-bidding, known as shill bidding or shilling, is forbidden by eBay rules and is generally illegal in the traditional auction world. Participation in a bidding ring would be a violation of federal statutes prohibiting mail fraud and wire fraud. Each count carries a maximum penalty of up to five years in prison and $1 million in fines.
<< <i>Technically, there are consequences. It seems they are seldom enforced or thoroughly investigated though.
Self-bidding, known as shill bidding or shilling, is forbidden by eBay rules and is generally illegal in the traditional auction world. Participation in a bidding ring would be a violation of federal statutes prohibiting mail fraud and wire fraud. Each count carries a maximum penalty of up to five years in prison and $1 million in fines. >>
If ebay doesn't care, though, why would the seller have anything to fear?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>Technically, there are consequences. It seems they are seldom enforced or thoroughly investigated though.
Self-bidding, known as shill bidding or shilling, is forbidden by eBay rules and is generally illegal in the traditional auction world. Participation in a bidding ring would be a violation of federal statutes prohibiting mail fraud and wire fraud. Each count carries a maximum penalty of up to five years in prison and $1 million in fines. >>
If ebay doesn't care, though, why would the seller have anything to fear? >>
I understand your point and agree. I just felt like adding technical accuracy to the subject. I've reported flagrant shilling to eBay for someone who would had the same buyer bidding up their auctions and then would re-list the item, linked to the original auction. The feedback was not followed up on in such a long time period that I gave up and canceled my report.
If the shill wins, you outsmarted them. > If you win, the shill outsmarted you.
Shilling appears to be rampant and it is difficult to eliminate although sniping does help. Establishing a somewhat random bidding pattern is of some utility too.
So if clandestine thievery is your thing, the light just turned green and you're about to hop on the autobahn. Fortunately for the hobby, enough collectors head in the opposite direction when the road bifurcates.
<< <i>Sniping is a great way to combat shilling. There are those who do not think so. Contrary to them, I am a big believer. >>
yup. just decide what ya wanna pay. then nobody shills you. it's your choice. win it or lose it and move on.
Unless of course you accidentally bid on your own auction while trying to purchase the exact same card that you're currently selling for some inexplicable reason. I'm sure we've all done this once or twice.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sniping is a great way to combat shilling. There are those who do not think so. Contrary to them, I am a big believer. >>
yup. just decide what ya wanna pay. then nobody shills you. it's your choice. win it or lose it and move on. >>
There are plenty of safety bids on the close. If you look at the high percentage bidders with various sellers not all of those bids are placed early on. With a large percentage of bids coming in at the end the shill bidders realize this and many snipe as well to ensure a higher price.
I don't think any bidding strategy completely insulates you from shill bidding.
<< <i>Sniping is a great way to combat shilling. There are those who do not think so. Contrary to them, I am a big believer. >>
+1
<< <i>It mostly means the guy didn't want to depart with his item. The guy should just put a reserved price on it and be honest with his listings. Of course, I don't usually bid on reserved items. >>
Forget reserve price. What's so friggin' hard about starting your item with an initial price of what you're willing to let it go for? There's no rule that says you have to start everything at $0.99. If you want/need $100 for it, start it there, and if it gets bid up higher than that, great. If not, no big deal, you got the amount you needed anyway. Obviously, this is much better than buy-it-now since you pay less in fees for the auction starting at the price you want vs. the fees for BIN.
<< <i>I don't think any bidding strategy completely insulates you from shill bidding. >>
it's not even about having a strategy. my strategy is to give up on strategy.
as i mentioned before, decide what you want to pay, no more. make it your mantra. no one shills you if you make your own choice, or if you have a suspicion just walk away.
i've bailed countless auctions because of suspicion. it's easy. and even if a thousand people jump in at the end of an auction with their own version of "best price", they still need to beat mine. if they do, fine. i've had a great deal of success at buying on eBay by learning to just let stuff go and amazingly enough, the same stuff DOES eventually pop back up again, and the percentages seem to work in my favor if i decide to bid again.
<< <i>So I'm looking at a PSA 9 1975 OPC Nolan Ryan card in eBay completed items when I see the same card was listed a month later by the same seller. The winning bidder of the card has 92% of their bidding with the seller and bid again on the card the second time it was listed, even though they WON the card a month earlier. Are there absolutely ZERO consequences for stuff like this? It makes me want to quit the hobby like so many others have.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-O-Pee-Chee-Nolan-Ryan-California-Angels-500-PSA-9-no-10s-/190857295009
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-O-Pee-Chee-Nolan-Ryan-California-Angels-500-PSA-9-no-10s-/190872583147 >>
The guy is a douche. There aren't any laws/rules in the world that can change that.
<< <i>I don't condone shill bidding but I have to admit, I'm not nearly as "up in arms" about it as much as many of the members here are. It seems pretty simple to me...DO NOT bid more for an item than you are wiling to pay. If you win an item for a price ABOVE the shill bid amount, then that's now the going market price for that item...you SET it with your bid!!!! If you lose out to the shill bidder, then the dude overestimated the value of that item, and he now owns it...still. People seem to always want "a deal" on the item they are bidding on...I do too...who doesn't want to pay less for something? But, when I bid on something, I do so knowing that I may ACTUALLY have to pay that amount...anything less than my max bid is purely a bonus! >>
The market price of a card should be determined by what two people are willing to pay, not what one person is willing to pay above a false shill bid.
Let's say you place a snipe on a card for $300. Yes, that's what you are willing to pay, but why should you actually have to pay that? So the next legitimate bid is at $201. In a legit auction, you'll pay $206 for the card.
Now, let's introduce a shill bid of $275. Your bid is now raised and you end up paying $280 for the card. How is this not basically the equivalent of the shill bidder reaching into your pocket and STEALING $75? I know that ignorance is bliss, but why would anyone ever be OK with paying more than they are supposed to pay? Just because ebay's system makes it easy place a shill, it does not make the practice ethically right.
So first decide what you want to pay.
Then set your sniping tool for the last 10 seconds of the auction.
DO NOT play their game.
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>I've never been shilled with a BIN and 90% of the cards I buy are from there. Call me crazy. >>
You're not. I'd say 75% of my buys are BIN.
The pseudo-auction is a sucker's game.
Sure you can occasionally get some good deals, but for the few times
you can do that it's not worth it.
DaveB in St.Louis
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
<< <i>
<< <i>I've never been shilled with a BIN and 90% of the cards I buy are from there. Call me crazy. >>
You're not. I'd say 75% of my buys are BIN.
The pseudo-auction is a sucker's game.
Sure you can occasionally get some good deals, but for the few times
you can do that it's not worth it. >>
Are you suggesting bidding in EBAY auctions is a sucker's game?
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
High bid is $200
Shiller bids $275 with 2 minutes to go
You set your $300 snipe yesterday to go off with 5 seconds left.
You win the item for $280.
You and the shiller were the only bids above $200.....BINGO
<< <i>A snipe can be shilled just like any other bid. No difference at all. NONE.
High bid is $200
Shiller bids $275 with 2 minutes to go
You set your $300 snipe yesterday to go off with 5 seconds left.
You win the item for $280.
You and the shiller were the only bids above $200.....BINGO >>
You are correct, you win the card for $20.00 less than you were willing to pay. Since ebay is (and not likely EVER) going to do anything about shill bids or bid retractions (very similar to shilling), the only alternative I can see is to not bid above what you are willing to pay.
Have fun with the hobby
Joe
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I've never been shilled with a BIN and 90% of the cards I buy are from there. Call me crazy. >>
You're not. I'd say 75% of my buys are BIN.
The pseudo-auction is a sucker's game.
Sure you can occasionally get some good deals, but for the few times
you can do that it's not worth it. >>
Are you suggesting bidding in EBAY auctions is a sucker's game? >>
I said the pseudo-auction is. This is the auction where somebody gets suckered
into continuing to bid up an item, and often against one or more shill bidders.
These crooks often work in teams. Never bid until the last minute of the auction.
If you don't know how to use a sniping tool -- then get educated.
The correct way to defeat these people is to do what I said earlier -- snipe at the very last moment at a price
that you feel is good. Anyone that bids on an item before the last minute of the auction is just
wasting their time IMHO and are subject to being a sucker.
I've been involved in eBAY auctions since 1999 and use it a lot but you have to use some common sense.
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>This is for Dave this CubbsKiller
>>
Yeah I've seen that book. There is some kind of masochistic tendency to being a Cubs fan.
I really have little sympathy for them -- they've got a better franchise right there in town.
Maybe not this year -- but most years.
DaveB in St.Louis