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Are there ANY consequences for shill bidding?

So I'm looking at a PSA 9 1975 OPC Nolan Ryan card in eBay completed items when I see the same card was listed a month later by the same seller. The winning bidder of the card has 92% of their bidding with the seller and bid again on the card the second time it was listed, even though they WON the card a month earlier. Are there absolutely ZERO consequences for stuff like this? It makes me want to quit the hobby like so many others have.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-O-Pee-Chee-Nolan-Ryan-California-Angels-500-PSA-9-no-10s-/190857295009

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-O-Pee-Chee-Nolan-Ryan-California-Angels-500-PSA-9-no-10s-/190872583147

Comments

  • JMDVMJMDVM Posts: 950 ✭✭✭
    zero
  • MrNearMintMrNearMint Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭
    Schill bidders should have their Schill bid finger broken off, not cut off but actually broken off!
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 27,982 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's chronic on ebay because there are no reprecussions for it.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • jmmiller777jmmiller777 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭
    It mostly means the guy didn't want to depart with his item. The guy should just put a reserved price on it and be honest with his listings. Of course, I don't usually bid on reserved items.
    CURRENT PROJECTS IN WORK:
    To be honest, no direction, but...
    1966-69 Topps EX+
    1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9
    All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
    image
  • MrNearMintMrNearMint Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭
    Jmmiller,
    I think it most means they want to scam people out of money by jacking up the price.
  • jboxjbox Posts: 411 ✭✭
    I noticed it with that seller as well. Shilling a ton of his own auctions for sure.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 27,982 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • dytch2220dytch2220 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Technically, there are consequences. It seems they are seldom enforced or thoroughly investigated though.

    Self-bidding, known as shill bidding or shilling, is forbidden by eBay rules and is generally illegal in the traditional auction world. Participation in a bidding ring would be a violation of federal statutes prohibiting mail fraud and wire fraud. Each count carries a maximum penalty of up to five years in prison and $1 million in fines. >>



    If ebay doesn't care, though, why would the seller have anything to fear? >>



    I understand your point and agree. I just felt like adding technical accuracy to the subject. I've reported flagrant shilling to eBay for someone who would had the same buyer bidding up their auctions and then would re-list the item, linked to the original auction. The feedback was not followed up on in such a long time period that I gave up and canceled my report.
    The N8 Collection: PSA Registry Sets & Showcases
  • Just self imposed guilt, which unfortunately many shillers do not have.
  • Webb63Webb63 Posts: 118 ✭✭
    I don't condone shill bidding but I have to admit, I'm not nearly as "up in arms" about it as much as many of the members here are. It seems pretty simple to me...DO NOT bid more for an item than you are wiling to pay. If you win an item for a price ABOVE the shill bid amount, then that's now the going market price for that item...you SET it with your bid!!!! If you lose out to the shill bidder, then the dude overestimated the value of that item, and he now owns it...still. People seem to always want "a deal" on the item they are bidding on...I do too...who doesn't want to pay less for something? But, when I bid on something, I do so knowing that I may ACTUALLY have to pay that amount...anything less than my max bid is purely a bonus!
  • MrNearMintMrNearMint Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭
    Webb66 is a Schiller, GIT THE ROPE!!
  • Webb63Webb63 Posts: 118 ✭✭
    nope...rarely even list on eBay. Just an adamant follower of the boards and really love the hundreds/thousands of posts I've read over the last year or two. Like I said, i just don't get it. if you place a max bid on an item, expect to pay that amount. Who goes to Vegas and is pissed that Vegas had the audacity to take the $xxx I gambled with????? Don't take more that you were willing to lose.
  • Just be smarter than the Shiller.

    If the shill wins, you outsmarted them. > If you win, the shill outsmarted you.

  • Higher the selling price, more money eBay makes, thus no consequence of shill bidding.
  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,161 ✭✭✭
    Sniping is a great way to combat shilling. There are those who do not think so. Contrary to them, I am a big believer.
    Some people are like slinkies..Not really good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when you push one down a flight of stairs.

    yup
  • seablasterseablaster Posts: 183 ✭✭✭
    Bidders want an auction that is not tampered with. If there is a minimum price that the seller requires, then obtain it legitimately; place a reserve or buy-it-now/best offer.

    Shilling appears to be rampant and it is difficult to eliminate although sniping does help. Establishing a somewhat random bidding pattern is of some utility too.
  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 3,813 ✭✭✭✭✭
    eBay is complicit, as far as I'm concerned. I've been a member for 16 years and I thoroughly cleansed my hands of them more than a decade ago. I once brought to light the most egregious example of shill bidding I had ever witnessed (a non-card listing), and for roughly 20 minutes my intelligence was insulted by a rep over the phone. Let's just say that I'm very thankful the discourse didn't take place in the flesh.

    So if clandestine thievery is your thing, the light just turned green and you're about to hop on the autobahn. Fortunately for the hobby, enough collectors head in the opposite direction when the road bifurcates.
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 9,086 ✭✭


    << <i>Sniping is a great way to combat shilling. There are those who do not think so. Contrary to them, I am a big believer. >>



    yup. just decide what ya wanna pay. then nobody shills you. it's your choice. win it or lose it and move on.
  • There should be major consequences for shill bidding!

    Unless of course you accidentally bid on your own auction while trying to purchase the exact same card that you're currently selling for some inexplicable reason. I'm sure we've all done this once or twice.
  • Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 10,831 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Sniping is a great way to combat shilling. There are those who do not think so. Contrary to them, I am a big believer. >>



    yup. just decide what ya wanna pay. then nobody shills you. it's your choice. win it or lose it and move on. >>




    There are plenty of safety bids on the close. If you look at the high percentage bidders with various sellers not all of those bids are placed early on. With a large percentage of bids coming in at the end the shill bidders realize this and many snipe as well to ensure a higher price.

    I don't think any bidding strategy completely insulates you from shill bidding.



  • Mickey71Mickey71 Posts: 3,531 ✭✭✭
    Unfortunately......I believe about 80% of the big boys on EBAY are doing it. I see the same cards over and over being bought and sold and then resold by the original seller. It's crazy.
  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 3,521 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Sniping is a great way to combat shilling. There are those who do not think so. Contrary to them, I am a big believer. >>



    +1
  • miwlvrnmiwlvrn Posts: 3,521 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It mostly means the guy didn't want to depart with his item. The guy should just put a reserved price on it and be honest with his listings. Of course, I don't usually bid on reserved items. >>



    Forget reserve price. What's so friggin' hard about starting your item with an initial price of what you're willing to let it go for? There's no rule that says you have to start everything at $0.99. If you want/need $100 for it, start it there, and if it gets bid up higher than that, great. If not, no big deal, you got the amount you needed anyway. Obviously, this is much better than buy-it-now since you pay less in fees for the auction starting at the price you want vs. the fees for BIN.
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 9,086 ✭✭


    << <i>I don't think any bidding strategy completely insulates you from shill bidding. >>



    it's not even about having a strategy. my strategy is to give up on strategy. image

    as i mentioned before, decide what you want to pay, no more. make it your mantra. no one shills you if you make your own choice, or if you have a suspicion just walk away.

    i've bailed countless auctions because of suspicion. it's easy. and even if a thousand people jump in at the end of an auction with their own version of "best price", they still need to beat mine. if they do, fine. i've had a great deal of success at buying on eBay by learning to just let stuff go and amazingly enough, the same stuff DOES eventually pop back up again, and the percentages seem to work in my favor if i decide to bid again.
  • bobbybakerivbobbybakeriv Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭


    << <i>So I'm looking at a PSA 9 1975 OPC Nolan Ryan card in eBay completed items when I see the same card was listed a month later by the same seller. The winning bidder of the card has 92% of their bidding with the seller and bid again on the card the second time it was listed, even though they WON the card a month earlier. Are there absolutely ZERO consequences for stuff like this? It makes me want to quit the hobby like so many others have.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-O-Pee-Chee-Nolan-Ryan-California-Angels-500-PSA-9-no-10s-/190857295009

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-O-Pee-Chee-Nolan-Ryan-California-Angels-500-PSA-9-no-10s-/190872583147 >>



    The guy is a douche. There aren't any laws/rules in the world that can change that.
  • CWCW Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I don't condone shill bidding but I have to admit, I'm not nearly as "up in arms" about it as much as many of the members here are. It seems pretty simple to me...DO NOT bid more for an item than you are wiling to pay. If you win an item for a price ABOVE the shill bid amount, then that's now the going market price for that item...you SET it with your bid!!!! If you lose out to the shill bidder, then the dude overestimated the value of that item, and he now owns it...still. People seem to always want "a deal" on the item they are bidding on...I do too...who doesn't want to pay less for something? But, when I bid on something, I do so knowing that I may ACTUALLY have to pay that amount...anything less than my max bid is purely a bonus! >>



    The market price of a card should be determined by what two people are willing to pay, not what one person is willing to pay above a false shill bid.

    Let's say you place a snipe on a card for $300. Yes, that's what you are willing to pay, but why should you actually have to pay that? So the next legitimate bid is at $201. In a legit auction, you'll pay $206 for the card.

    Now, let's introduce a shill bid of $275. Your bid is now raised and you end up paying $280 for the card. How is this not basically the equivalent of the shill bidder reaching into your pocket and STEALING $75? I know that ignorance is bliss, but why would anyone ever be OK with paying more than they are supposed to pay? Just because ebay's system makes it easy place a shill, it does not make the practice ethically right.
  • The only way to win this fraudulent pseudo-auction game is not to play.

    So first decide what you want to pay.

    Then set your sniping tool for the last 10 seconds of the auction.

    DO NOT play their game.



    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.

    DaveB in St.Louis
  • addicted2ebayaddicted2ebay Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭
    I've never been shilled with a BIN and 90% of the cards I buy are from there. Call me crazy. image
    ebay mobile does not suck anymore


  • << <i>I've never been shilled with a BIN and 90% of the cards I buy are from there. Call me crazy. image >>



    You're not. I'd say 75% of my buys are BIN.

    The pseudo-auction is a sucker's game.

    Sure you can occasionally get some good deals, but for the few times
    you can do that it's not worth it.
    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.

    DaveB in St.Louis
  • bishopbishop Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭
    This is for Dave this CubbsKiller

    image
    Topps Baseball-1948, 1951 to 2017
    Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
    Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007

    Al
  • Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 10,831 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I've never been shilled with a BIN and 90% of the cards I buy are from there. Call me crazy. image >>



    You're not. I'd say 75% of my buys are BIN.

    The pseudo-auction is a sucker's game.

    Sure you can occasionally get some good deals, but for the few times
    you can do that it's not worth it. >>





    Are you suggesting bidding in EBAY auctions is a sucker's game?
  • KbKardsKbKards Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭
    It's a suckers game when your only determination of how much you're willing to pay is based on how much somebody else is willing to pay. If your evaluation and limit on a card is $250, and you see one in an auction at $300, then most people will refrain from bidding. If you see it at $300 and bid $305 just because somebody else was willing to pay $300 then you'll continue to be run up by shills and suckers like you. You let other bidders decide what you'll pay and you don't know if the bids are legitimate or not.
  • bishopbishop Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭
    Some sellers will not part with a card(s) unless they get their price. Some do it with a BIN, some with a reserve, some with a minimum first bid, and some with shills. As strictly a buyer on ebay, it does not matter to me which of these methods they use. If I want/need the card I set my snipe for what I am willing to pay and that's it.
    Topps Baseball-1948, 1951 to 2017
    Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
    Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007

    Al
  • Mickey71Mickey71 Posts: 3,531 ✭✭✭
    A snipe can be shilled just like any other bid. No difference at all. NONE.

    High bid is $200

    Shiller bids $275 with 2 minutes to go

    You set your $300 snipe yesterday to go off with 5 seconds left.

    You win the item for $280.

    You and the shiller were the only bids above $200.....BINGOimage
  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 8,038 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>A snipe can be shilled just like any other bid. No difference at all. NONE.

    High bid is $200

    Shiller bids $275 with 2 minutes to go

    You set your $300 snipe yesterday to go off with 5 seconds left.

    You win the item for $280.

    You and the shiller were the only bids above $200.....BINGOimage >>



    You are correct, you win the card for $20.00 less than you were willing to pay. Since ebay is (and not likely EVER) going to do anything about shill bids or bid retractions (very similar to shilling), the only alternative I can see is to not bid above what you are willing to pay.

    Have fun with the hobby

    Joe
    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I've never been shilled with a BIN and 90% of the cards I buy are from there. Call me crazy. image >>



    You're not. I'd say 75% of my buys are BIN.

    The pseudo-auction is a sucker's game.

    Sure you can occasionally get some good deals, but for the few times
    you can do that it's not worth it. >>



    Are you suggesting bidding in EBAY auctions is a sucker's game? >>



    I said the pseudo-auction is. This is the auction where somebody gets suckered
    into continuing to bid up an item, and often against one or more shill bidders.
    These crooks often work in teams. Never bid until the last minute of the auction.
    If you don't know how to use a sniping tool -- then get educated.

    The correct way to defeat these people is to do what I said earlier -- snipe at the very last moment at a price
    that you feel is good. Anyone that bids on an item before the last minute of the auction is just
    wasting their time IMHO and are subject to being a sucker.

    I've been involved in eBAY auctions since 1999 and use it a lot but you have to use some common sense.

    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.

    DaveB in St.Louis


  • << <i>This is for Dave this CubbsKiller

    image >>



    Yeah I've seen that book. There is some kind of masochistic tendency to being a Cubs fan.

    I really have little sympathy for them -- they've got a better franchise right there in town.
    Maybe not this year -- but most years.
    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.

    DaveB in St.Louis
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