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Best set in the Registry-how important is this to the High end collectors?
TahoeDale
Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
The recent Newman collection has come out of hiding, and there has been some discussion re the early dollars in this fab set,
but without a certain 1794 dollar that could have been purchased.
I have given some thought to the fact that I will eventually lose the No. 1 ranking of my early and capped bust halves. Have I made a mistake
in not buying the 1815 in 66(still in another TPG slab), 1817/4 in AU 50, and a few other rare varieties?
While I have enjoyed owning all the coins I have, there will always be a better/higher graded set in my series, as there will be for all series, if enough time passes.
More home runs will be hit, more bases stolen, more passes completed, and the record for the mile run will be beat, one day. Again and again
As Jack Nicholas has said, it has been great to own the record for most majors won, but if Tiger does not break it, someone will. And he hopes
he will be able to congratulate Tiger or whomever when that happens.
As I will for the passionate collector who tops my set.
but without a certain 1794 dollar that could have been purchased.
I have given some thought to the fact that I will eventually lose the No. 1 ranking of my early and capped bust halves. Have I made a mistake
in not buying the 1815 in 66(still in another TPG slab), 1817/4 in AU 50, and a few other rare varieties?
While I have enjoyed owning all the coins I have, there will always be a better/higher graded set in my series, as there will be for all series, if enough time passes.
More home runs will be hit, more bases stolen, more passes completed, and the record for the mile run will be beat, one day. Again and again
As Jack Nicholas has said, it has been great to own the record for most majors won, but if Tiger does not break it, someone will. And he hopes
he will be able to congratulate Tiger or whomever when that happens.
As I will for the passionate collector who tops my set.
TahoeDale
0
Comments
<< <i>......... Not all of the numerically highest graded coins look the best, what would a collector say about being #2 but having the coins they feel most satisfied with? >>
The registry set #1 spots are dominated by people who have, basically, infinite money. For WLH, the infinite deep pockets are owned by Forsythe. For the short set, it is Struppler.
However, as a #2 collector for the late date set and short sets, I am well beyond satisfied with my collections. I totally agree with your observation that 'Not all of the numerically highest graded coins look the best'. While very much biased, I could rattle off over a dozen issues where I feel my collection has the better example.
I don't doubt for a fraction of a nanosecond that it would be way, way cool to simply purchase any coin at any cost at any time, as these heavy hitters can do. Certainly I would work my early WLH collection more agressively if I was in a position where money were not a factor. I certainly would have a few of the extremely high end half dollars featured in the RLevoi set (I still kick myself for not self-imposing a world of financial hurt and going after that wonderful 1919-S that is featured in this set), and I would have purchased far more GBW pieces when Pinnacle sold that set years ago.
As a young child I was always pushed to be the smartest, fastest, most athletic, strongest, etc etc etc...I succeeded in many of these areas but frequently it was within a narrow focus or specialty.
Who here was pushed as a child to be the 2nd, 3rd or 4th best in everything they did? I doubt many were although that may be where they ended up. Everyone dreams to be #1. Simple. I think it is very important to the high end collectors.
Most people would not regard me as a high end collector because of my current narrow focus. Since I focus on Mercury Dimes and since I learned early that Top Pop Mercury Dimes are frequently cost prohibitive for now, I decided to narrow my focus to the varieties. I learned quickly that my bank account cannot compete with the bank accounts of so many others that enjoy the hobby of kings but I also learned how I could be more knowledgeable than most when given a specialty or niche. I also learned that I might take a few more risks than others. I also learned that I might be one of the most aggressive and dedicated to obtaining the best pieces I could find. When you combine these different factors, I am well on my way to building what I hope to be the finest collection of Mercury Dime Varieties known and would not mind being remembered for that. Within my niche of Mercury Dime Varieties I now have 14 that are Top Pop.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I appreciate more hearing about those high end collectors who have the best sets but who do NOT participate in the registry. >>
I only appreciate that when those sets come up for sale so I can pick through the best stuff, photograph it, show it to others and help educate the collecting community as a whole while building knowledge and interest. I think the registry provides much more than just a competition.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>Anyone with a fat wallet can buy a high ranking set. It's not hard to assemble labels. Assembling nice coins is different. >>
Not true when it comes to hunting varieties! Not true by a long shot! Knowledge and the hard work of Cherrypicking come into play big time!!!
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>Anyone with a fat wallet can buy a high ranking set. It's not hard to assemble labels. Assembling nice coins is different. >>
Actually, this is not true. Some collections are so tightly held that even a fat wallet cannot compete
Now, as a dealer, many times I see a coin that is nicer than one in a higher graded holder.
There are few records that are unbeatable. Except for Cy Young's 511 wins, and some others. IMO, someday most registry sets existing now will be exceeded by someone else. That is why there is a registry set "All-Time" list.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Last year I was privileged to be #1 ATS for the 1795 to 1933 gold type set category. I knew it was a fluke and that it won't last because there are many better coins out there than what I have. It was just that a lot of pieces that fell in place for me. Now I'm #3 and thousands of registry points behind the two who are ahead of me. The only way I could catch them would be if I re-tooled my entire collection with high grade Proof and Mint State coins. I can't afford to that, and the fire is not in my belly to do it.
The registry concept is fun, and it's a great place to showcase your collection and educate other collectors, but it's not be all and end all of collecting. I'm the only guy ATS that is 100% complete for all the type sets from the half cent to the $20 gold. That to me is just as good as being the #1 guy who is missing some key coins, mainly because he will only put super grade coins in his collection.
In many cases, yes - in others, not so much.
<< <i>The recent Newman collection has come out of hiding, and there has been some discussion re the early dollars in this fab set,
but without a certain 1794 dollar that could have been purchased.
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PCGS could just adjust the his set in the Registry to add a higher graded 1794 because he probably could have bought one at the time... they've done it for other collectors of that period by adding in "assumed grades" for those guys who never really bought the coins for their sets, like Eliasberg... I understand why they added those into the sets, but sometimes the "assumed grades" aren't too realistic as they often assume these guys would have had the top pop coin!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>When I was a collector, I realized that someone else always has something you don't have. As such, in my collections where I was looking for great coins, I tried to get the best coins for the set, not necessarily the coin that had the highest graded holder.
Now, as a dealer, many times I see a coin that is nicer than one in a higher graded holder.
There are few records that are unbeatable. Except for Cy Young's 511 wins, and some others. IMO, someday most registry sets existing now will be exceeded by someone else. That is why there is a registry set "All-Time" list. >>
WAS a collector????
I find myself drawn into the registry set battles. Luckily I only have 1 coin I wish I had not bought and have passed on many upgrades since! I am also fairly sure there are 2 sets out there better than mine.
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<< <i>Anyone with a fat wallet can buy a high ranking set. It's not hard to assemble labels. Assembling nice coins is different. >>
Actually, this is not true. Some collections are so tightly held that even a fat wallet cannot compete >>
Not saying I could buy the top ranking set, but definitely a high ranking one.
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<< <i>Anyone with a fat wallet can buy a high ranking set. It's not hard to assemble labels. Assembling nice coins is different. >>
Actually, this is not true. Some collections are so tightly held that even a fat wallet cannot compete >>
Not saying I could buy the top ranking set, but definitely a high ranking one. >>
While I'd agree that people can closely hold some fine pieces/sets, everything has a price. It's just a matter of what the magic number is.
The facility with which a person can assemble a high-ranking set depends a bit on the series. It wouldn't be all that difficult to put together a top-20 registry set of Morgans, Walkers, or Peace dollars. It might even be possible, within a month or two, to acquire a top-ten set by making a single phone call to a single dealer. The collection of labels might be impressive, but the coins would likely be poorly matched and would not meet my personal standards or tastes. The number one or number two set, on the other hand, for most series would usually require a more significant effort, money, and plenty of patience.
If you want to gauge how important set ranking is to an individual, look and see if their collection is public or private.
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<< <i>Anyone with a fat wallet can buy a high ranking set. It's not hard to assemble labels. Assembling nice coins is different. >>
Actually, this is not true. Some collections are so tightly held that even a fat wallet cannot compete >>
Not saying I could buy the top ranking set, but definitely a high ranking one. >>
While I'd agree that people can closely hold some fine pieces/sets, everything has a price. It's just a matter of what the magic number is. >>
Easy to say but when you actually try it you will find it's not as true as you think. That's the voice of experience.
If money was no object I could build a SUPER set in ALL my series. The fact is that in most series the high end uncs are easier to find than circs. All it takes is money and to argue this point will not change it as a fact.
Also, I agree with Mr. Jones. I would rather have a complete set than a #1 set missing coins.
And last but not least I agree that top sets will continue to be beat. A perfect example is my retired set of Mercury Dimes that was #1 in 2002 and 2004. Now that set is down somewhere in the 20's.
As far as the deep pocket part, of course I'm talking rare 18th and early 19th century stuff. Anything later is always available for a price.
<< <i>Trust me, a complete set sucks. You need some missing coins to keep your mind on the hunt.
As far as the deep pocket part, of course I'm talking rare 18th and early 19th century stuff. Anything later is always available for a price. >>
Not true when it comes to varieties! Not true at all. Many many many many examples can be provided just in dimes alone if you want them. It becomes a knowledge is POWER and intense dedication to looking for some coins for many years...NO MATTER HOW DEEP THE POCKETS! I just can't emphasize enough how untrue your statement is when it comes to varieties.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
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<< <i>Trust me, a complete set sucks. You need some missing coins to keep your mind on the hunt.
As far as the deep pocket part, of course I'm talking rare 18th and early 19th century stuff. Anything later is always available for a price. >>
Not true when it comes to varieties! Not true at all. Many many many many examples can be provided just in dimes alone if you want them. It becomes a knowledge is POWER and intense dedication to looking for some coins for many years...NO MATTER HOW DEEP THE POCKETS! I just can't emphasize enough how untrue your statement is when it comes to varieties. >>
Not sure I understand how the above and the below are consistent.
If money was no object I could build a SUPER set in ALL my series. The fact is that in most series the high end uncs are easier to find than circs. All it takes is money and to argue this point will not change it as a fact.
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<< <i>Trust me, a complete set sucks. You need some missing coins to keep your mind on the hunt.
As far as the deep pocket part, of course I'm talking rare 18th and early 19th century stuff. Anything later is always available for a price. >>
Not true when it comes to varieties! Not true at all. Many many many many examples can be provided just in dimes alone if you want them. It becomes a knowledge is POWER and intense dedication to looking for some coins for many years...NO MATTER HOW DEEP THE POCKETS! I just can't emphasize enough how untrue your statement is when it comes to varieties. >>
Not sure I understand how the above and the below are consistent.
If money was no object I could build a SUPER set in ALL my series. The fact is that in most series the high end uncs are easier to find than circs. All it takes is money and to argue this point will not change it as a fact. >>
I do not believe they are consistent. DIMEMAN and I don't always agree and he can even come in here to admit it. I think there might be some things getting crossed or misunderstood.
There are Roosevelt varieties he has been searching for and cannot find. There are Barber varieties that he has been searching for and cannot find. There are Mercury Dime varieties I have been searching for for 3.5 years with ZERO luck. Money does not matter...We cannot find the darn coins. PCGS POPS are fewer than 5 for many coins in the 20th Century.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>TDN - For the right price I could own your Trade Dollars!
What you don't understand is that most people with money got that way because they understand value and also that they won't give up something they treasure for other than life changing money. So while you say that lightly, if you actually HAD the money you would never offer me the life changing amount it would take to buy them
Looks good on paper but fails in real life. Sorry
It just goes to show you how many different kinds of collectors there are out there that get immense satisfaction out of the way they approach coins.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
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<< <i>Anyone with a fat wallet can buy a high ranking set. It's not hard to assemble labels. Assembling nice coins is different. >>
Actually, this is not true. Some collections are so tightly held that even a fat wallet cannot compete >>
At some point you have to find a coin to be able to buy it. And the higher you go up the scale the harder that is to do. I have a client right now that pretty much is stuck due to unavailability, not price.
IF I had the money I could buy any coin I wanted.......PERIOD!!!!
Tell me, since we are fantasizing hypotheticals - how do you buy a coin from Bill Gates?
Game...Set.....Match!
Let's say you *are* Bill Gates - how do you wrest the unique in private hands 1822 $5 from fellow billionaire M.P.? It isn't as easy as you make it out to be....
You know I am right. If I had say 100 billion....I could buy any coin from any body! And you know it.
<< <i>TDN - Sorry but you are wrong! Same with any coin in strong hands.
IF I had the money I could buy any coin I wanted.......PERIOD!!!! >>
There are most definitely coins in the possession of collectors where money alone won't allow you to purchase them.
Such as THE 1911 Canada Silver dollar. There are only two in existence, one has a permanent residence in a museum. The owner is well-off, and no amount of money would simply let you buy that piece from him whenever you want. If/when he gets tired of it (or dies), MAYBE you have a shot to buy it. If it ever goes to auction.
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Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>I don't care to own the 1822 5$, but guarantee I could get it if I wanted it.
You know I am right. If I had say 100 billion....I could buy any coin from any body! And you know it. >>
You just don't get it. Anyone with over a few billion has all the money they could ever need. If you're just gonna give it to your kids, to charity or to the government and some yahoo comes and tries to give you more for something you'd rather have, then no is the answer.
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<< <i>Anyone with a fat wallet can buy a high ranking set. It's not hard to assemble labels. Assembling nice coins is different. >>
Actually, this is not true. Some collections are so tightly held that even a fat wallet cannot compete >>
Not saying I could buy the top ranking set, but definitely a high ranking one. >>
While I'd agree that people can closely hold some fine pieces/sets, everything has a price. It's just a matter of what the magic number is. >>
Easy to say but when you actually try it you will find it's not as true as you think. That's the voice of experience. >>
Obviously I don't have the funds or desire to do so, but I'm pretty confident that with $1M I could assemble a Seated Dollar set that would rank #2 within two years. It would be an aesthetically lousy collection, plenty of the coins would be dogs, and there would likely be little consistency to their appearance, but the set would beat the current #2.
Same thing with Trade Dollars.
Not looking to start an argument over this, but looking at what goes through Heritage and SB alone, you could probably do the majority of it from your computer chair.
I should add, I'm speaking about the current, active sets. Not the "All Time"
Apparently not.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Best set in the Registry-how important is this to the High end collectors? >>
To collectors of high grade sets as defined by a registry, having the highest ranked set is the most important goal.
To collectors of comprehensive pre-1840 die variety sets, registry sets are largely irrelevant.
I always thought the best set of early US coins was the Ed Price complete set of draped bust dimes and quarter eagles. Price collected what he considered to be the best examples, including many gem uncirculated coins along with a unique 1796 JR-7 dime graded F-2. Price also discovered 1803 JR-5, an accomplishment that only a knowledgeable numismatist could attain, and something that a high end collector could never do.
Other sets such as the Warren Miller complete early dollar collection that contains several unique die marriages, and owner of The Overton Collection of early half dollars, are great collections that took many years and are the most complete collections that were ever assembled of their series. There are no registry sets of early half dollars that begin to compare with the Meyer and Westmoreland County collections.
Price, Miller, TOC, Meyer, and Westmoreland did not list their sets on a registry, even though some would be the highest ranked sets.
And my presence is like a drunk sailor tripping into the Pentagon while the President is being briefed on matters of war.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I actually know a billionaire... know how he became a billionaire? He sees everything aside from family (I think he'd sell his kids, though) as assets. Assets he can buy/sell/trade/lease/etc to generate revenue and profits. He scraped his way up from nothing to being a billionaire because he looks at everything as a business decision. So I can assure you that if the return was enough, you could pry any coin/collection out of privately held hands. >>
All that you can reliably conclude from this single example is that this person may have been willing to sell a $1m coin to you for $2m when his assets were, say, in the $100m range.
With assets in the $2b range, margninal utility of wealth is lower, and he might not want to sell for $2m or $10m if it puts his registry set below yours.
And you cannot conclude anything about the many other folks with $1b+, from this single example. "any coin/collection" - no. You just can't go from one to all like that!
Finally, to rework one of TDN's points, if *ALL* billionaires are only making "rational business decisions" and are thus happy to sell any of their assets at a profit, then you,
as a billionaire would not be offering $2m for a $1m coin since you can buy any one of a number of similarly attractive and marketable $1m coins for $1m + $10k .
If you are an irrational billionaire offering $2m for $1m, then you have to grant the possibility that the holder of the coin is also irrational and won't sell it for less than your total assets....
Irrational is not the right word, though. It is more like "speculative", in terms of how a person values a unique (top pop) item.
Sure, if you had the money to buy TDN basic trade dollar set, you would not WANT to buy it because TDN is a such a strong owner of such set. It means a lot to him. In order to buy such set you would have to pay too much to acquire it, and that is the price point in which as a seasoned numismatist, you would be smart enough to drop out.
I am sure you have some of the same kind of coins that are not for sale until it gets to a rediculous price point at which nearly everyone drops out.
I know I do and I am sure every collector has their special coins that they feel is irreplaceable.
Coin collectors as a rule are pretty rational. They will most often just sit and wait for the right coin instead of letting their emotion running amok and paying any price for the coin they truly want. Yes, once in a while, we go stir crazy.