<< <i>This may be Laura's best report ever--you can feel the passion in her writing.
Congrats to all. including George--he has to support all the weak knees that occurred over the last several days. >>
George is the man.
You are right Dale. That may have been Laura's best report ever. I think she was still shaking inside when she wrote that. I could feel it in her writing. Awesome
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>This may be Laura's best report ever--you can feel the passion in her writing.
Congrats to all. including George--he has to support all the weak knees that occurred over the last several days. >>
George is the man.
You are right Dale. That may have been Laura's best report ever. I think she was still shaking inside when she wrote that. I could feel it in her writing. Awesome
I just read this again and it was easy to overlook the first time but it's probably just as important as the sale of the dollar. Pretty existing stuff actually
"A VERY imporant note about our customer who bought this amazing Chain Cent. He is from Asia! The US Rare coin market is truely international. We have other customers from Singapore, England, Canada, and India. It fascinates us to no end there is someone sitting on the other side of the world who cherishes US rarities as much as we do. He was not afraid of the price (he was prepared to go a lot higher) as he has paid MORE for other coins we have sold him! Many congrats to the new coins new owner!"
I can say from working a 150 days a year in Asia that collecting Americana is the real deal. I know many that are obsessed by it. Foreign buyers maybe the driver of US rarities going forward. Tons of liquidity. Who knew US coins could be so sexy?
Make no mistake about it, there are off shore customers putting together top shelf US rarity collections.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I think it is a little sad when US treasures leave for other countries but since our laws don't prevent it and we live in a Global Economy this will become the norm more and more unless coin collecting can become a little more sexy in the US and US buyers are willing to out bid the international buyers. This will add to the challenges of putting together TOP SETS when things are scattered further and further apart in family collections that are passed on to generation after generation without them being sold.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>I think it is a little sad when US treasures leave for other countries but since our laws don't prevent it and we live in a Global Economy this will become the norm more and more unless coin collecting can become a little more sexy in the US and US buyers are willing to out bid the international buyers. This will add to the challenges of putting together TOP SETS when things are scattered further and further apart in family collections that are passed on to generation after generation without them being sold. >>
I collect French First Edition books from the 1800's. I became intrigued with them when i worked out of Europe most of the year in the 90's. I'm sure the French hate it when some of "their" treasures leave the country. I do understand your point Greg.
I also collect wine (small time hood ). Let's go back to the French. Trust me, if it wasn't for Asia the French wine market would have collapsed during the financial crisis. Asia was buying and supporting all the physical wine and the first growth futures during that period. Today the market couldn't be much stronger. It is so strong that some of the top producers are suspending selling futures and will just cellar their own wine. Sort of what Legend is doing with the 1794 dollar. They know when they have a winner. Napa Valley needs to send a thank you note as well to China/Japan/HK. So yes, to your point it is a global economy. Thank goodness.
Asia has always had a fascination with Americana. From jeans to our music. The amount of wealth in Asia at the top 1% is STAGGERING. It has to go somewhere. Some will flow into rarities.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I do not see them as a long term holder of the coin. It was suppose to have been tied up 3 years ago for a long long time. I think Martin got the last laugh on TDN. Once he recieves his settlement check he may come on here and proclaim it to only be a 5 mil coin. as others before.
Cool coin reguardless of price.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>I think it is a little sad when US treasures leave for other countries but since our laws don't prevent it and we live in a Global Economy this will become the norm more and more unless coin collecting can become a little more sexy in the US and US buyers are willing to out bid the international buyers. This will add to the challenges of putting together TOP SETS when things are scattered further and further apart in family collections that are passed on to generation after generation without them being sold. >>
I collect French First Edition books from the 1800's. I became intrigued with them when i worked out of Europe most of the year in the 90's. I'm sure the French hate it when some of "their" treasures leave the country. I do understand your point Greg.
I also collect wine (small time hood ). Let's go back to the French. Trust me, if it wasn't for Asia the French wine market would have collapsed during the financial crisis. Asia was buying and supporting all the physical wine and the first growth futures during that period. Today the market couldn't be much stronger. It is so strong that some of the top producers are suspending selling futures and will just cellar their own wine. Sort of what Legend is doing with the 1794 dollar. They know when they have a winner. Napa Valley needs to send a thank you note as well to China/Japan/HK. So yes, to your point it is a global economy. Thank goodness.
Asia has always had a fascination with Americana. From jeans to our music. The amount of wealth in Asia at the top 1% is STAGGERING. It has to go somewhere. Some will flow into rarities.
<< <i>I think Martin got the last laugh on TDN. Once he recieves his settlement check he may come on here and proclaim it to only be a 5 mil coin. as others before. >>
Martin is a class act. He would never do that. He simply is moving on to a new adventure in the coin hobby just as Legend/Tradedollarnut are doing.
Don't you see???? They are both time travelers like most of us in this great hobby? Only the number of zeros after the first number is different on what it takes to buy their coins.
Steve: Thanks for bringing that up ... I had forgotten about it.
Yes, gold outperformed this mega rarity and that is even with gold being down 3% in the past 12 months! Additionally, you do not have the selling expense with gold that you do with this coin. No doubt Stacks/Bowers returned a decent portion of the buyers' fee to Martin but the typical buy/sell spread on a large bullion transaction is between 1%-2%. In other words, gold did even better than the raw numbers when looking at the net numbers.
So, to repeat my observation, Legend essentially paid 6,033 ozs. of gold for this coin with gold spot at $1,660/oz. Let's once again come back in 3-5 years and see how this mega rarity performed as compared to a 6,033 oz. gold position. That should be interesting.
Also, consider that it would have cost Martin 6,500 ozs. of gold for this coin when he purchased it. But, it only cost Legend 6,033 ozs. of gold to buy it this week! If this trend continues in less than 100 years Oreville's heirs will be able to purchase this coin if he starts stocking up on gold bullion ASAP!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>I think Martin got the last laugh on TDN. Once he recieves his settlement check he may come on here and proclaim it to only be a 5 mil coin. as others before. >>
Martin is a class act. He would never do that. He simply is moving on to a new adventure in the coin hobby just as Legend/Tradedollarnut are doing.
Don't you see???? They are both time travelers like most of us in this great hobby? Only the number of zeros after the first number is different on what it takes to buy their coins. >>
I also disagree. That coin still has upside potential. $10M shocks people now, but in the world of rare collectibles (particularly fine art) this figure doesn't mean much. Legend also will benefit from tons of publicity that will no doubt attract additional clients from around the world. Buying this coin was a gutsy, shrewd move.
And don't even try to compare this with gold bullion. There have been many years when gold went nowhere. The market influences concerning bullion and rare coins (or other collectibles) don't exactly coincide. The reasons for putting $10M in gold vs. this coin aren't the same either. Is there any special pride of ownership where bullion gold is concerned? No
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
Was discussing with TDN yesterday the price of this coin since 1947 vs. PMs.
The 1794 has increased in price 5,000 to 10,000X. The graph was too small to get the exact 1947 price. No doubt it got some additional "recognition" in the past 20 yrs that has boosted its price considerably. In that same time frame silver has increased in price no more than 100X. Gold around 43X. So clearly, this coin has put it an amazing performance in the past 65 yrs during a very inflationary period almost custom made for it. Not much outperforms gold and silver during their cyclical bull markets lasting approx 17-18 years on average. Like anything else, it pays to be on the right side of a 20 yr cycle when investing/speculating. The rarities usually don't have big down cycles. But in the case of the 1794$ it did drop from $1 MILL to just over $400K during the fallout of the 1989 bull market. I wonder how much of that price drop was just liquidity, and not actually the value of the coin. It sold for a little over $250K in the mid-1980's at Stack's Amon Carter sale. Gold had a 71% drop from 1980 to 2001. Good things do have big drops from time to time. Gold and silver are still consolidating their moves from Oct 2008-2011. There is still another major leg up to come in the next 2-5 yrs. At that time Wondercoin can write the final act of the 1794$ vs. gold.
I will make a completely unscientific observation about the tremendous sums of money being spent on extreme numismatic rarities, paintings and the like - the world is awash in ridiculous amounts of QE-produced play money. I don't think that a $10M price tag is all that impressive anymore considering the true value of the pieces of paper being spent.
That being said I still wish I had $10M in play money to buy coins like that! And, I think that Sperber did sum up the gut-churning feelings of bidding on a special coin at auction quite nicely.
I am probably one of the few people who noticed, but the Nafzinger 1852 Large Cent in MS 65 RD sold for $32,900. Laura said this may be one of the nicest RD Large Cents out there.
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but:
1) I suppose the PCGS color guarantee applies, as the coin was holdered before their cut-off re copper color can be proven re provenance. 2) Braided Hair RD copper is not difficult to find for the 1850s. 5 RDs are readily available, except for the 1857. While many aren't anything special to look at, a number of them I've seen are attractive coins. Paying large multiples of sheet for a late date Braided Hair Large Cent in 5 RD strikes me like paying large premiums for say, a colorful 1881 S Morgan. 3) Paying a large sum for a genuinely rare coin, like Laura's 1794 dollar is one thing. I get that. Paying such a premium for a relatively common coin is another matter.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
I seem to recall that you had to be the same owner of a slabbed RD cent by PCGS when they changed the rule in order for the color guarantee to be still in effect.
Change in ownership voids the warranty after the rule change, as I recall.
The coin company for billyunaires, I s'pose. It makes me wonder, whatever happened to Jay Parrino? For the longest time he dealt in this kind of market (and then, tried to establish the same in comics, but was a few years ahead in that area.) I know TDN has posted that he and Jay had some sort of "history."
I look at the sale of this coin in two different ways. In one way, I'm glad that it went for strong money. I honestly didn't think it would. But if coins like these at the top start tanking, that's a really big problem. And in another way, the $10M mark is huge. If TDN and Legends intended to make a statement, they did. And if by this statement they bring some new faces and money to the coin market, we should all be thanking them.
<< <i>The 'it's all about money' aspect of that report sickens me. >>
That's not fair, Laura's job as a dealer is to dig up special coins and protect her clients interests. Consider that most people would consider taking advantage of buyers = losing money, she is simply laying out the blue print for her segment of the market that has made her and plenty of others around her lots of money and built world class collections. If all others were so forth coming.
If you get your kicks off on more historical niches with less concern for profits and preservation, that doesn't make you a more enlightened collector, just different. And she isn't writing it from a collectors perspective anyway. Beside I would be willing to put her actual scholarly merits up against many of the people who look down on her.
I enjoyed reading that again. Last night at dinner the subject came up and we relayed to two clients how it was six months of hell planning for the coin. Reading Laura's words just reinforces that in my mind.
The Internet gives anyone with an opinion the forum to voice it, no matter how parochial or one-sided that opinion may be.
I know Laura really well, and she is hardly anything like how her detractors portray her. The fact that she's been a lightening rod on issues means that she's a lot more than people see.
Comments
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
Legend should install a red "bat phone" in the office for all the future phone calls from the Pogues to pry that baby loose.
I give it 6 months to 2 yrs.
Congrats to all. including George--he has to support all the weak knees that occurred over the last several days.
<< <i>This may be Laura's best report ever--you can feel the passion in her writing.
Congrats to all. including George--he has to support all the weak knees that occurred over the last several days. >>
George is the man.
You are right Dale. That may have been Laura's best report ever. I think she was still shaking inside when she wrote that. I could feel it in her writing. Awesome
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>This may be Laura's best report ever--you can feel the passion in her writing.
Congrats to all. including George--he has to support all the weak knees that occurred over the last several days. >>
George is the man.
You are right Dale. That may have been Laura's best report ever. I think she was still shaking inside when she wrote that. I could feel it in her writing. Awesome
MJ >>
Even my monitor trembled.
<< <i>This may be Laura's best report ever--you can feel the passion in her writing.
>>
Yup. If you've ever chased a coin you really wanted at auction, she nails what it is like here.
"A VERY imporant note about our customer who bought this amazing Chain Cent. He is from Asia! The US Rare coin market is truely international. We have other customers from Singapore, England, Canada, and India. It fascinates us to no end there is someone sitting on the other side of the world who cherishes US rarities as much as we do. He was not afraid of the price (he was prepared to go a lot higher) as he has paid MORE for other coins we have sold him! Many congrats to the new coins new owner!"
I can say from working a 150 days a year in Asia that collecting Americana is the real deal. I know many that are obsessed by it. Foreign buyers maybe the driver of US rarities going forward. Tons of liquidity. Who knew US coins could be so sexy?
Make no mistake about it, there are off shore customers putting together top shelf US rarity collections.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Does that make this a business expense to depreciate on Legend's taxes instead inventory?
CPAs?
<< <i>No plans to resell?
Does that make this a business expense to depreciate on Legend's taxes instead inventory?
CPAs? >>
No. It is an investment that ties up a bunch of capital, but probably capital they can spare.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>I think it is a little sad when US treasures leave for other countries but since our laws don't prevent it and we live in a Global Economy this will become the norm more and more unless coin collecting can become a little more sexy in the US and US buyers are willing to out bid the international buyers. This will add to the challenges of putting together TOP SETS when things are scattered further and further apart in family collections that are passed on to generation after generation without them being sold. >>
I collect French First Edition books from the 1800's. I became intrigued with them when i worked out of Europe most of the year in the 90's. I'm sure the French hate it when some of "their" treasures leave the country. I do understand your point Greg.
I also collect wine (small time hood ). Let's go back to the French. Trust me, if it wasn't for Asia the French wine market would have collapsed during the financial crisis. Asia was buying and supporting all the physical wine and the first growth futures during that period. Today the market couldn't be much stronger. It is so strong that some of the top producers are suspending selling futures and will just cellar their own wine. Sort of what Legend is doing with the 1794 dollar. They know when they have a winner. Napa Valley needs to send a thank you note as well to China/Japan/HK. So yes, to your point it is a global economy. Thank goodness.
Asia has always had a fascination with Americana. From jeans to our music. The amount of wealth in Asia at the top 1% is STAGGERING. It has to go somewhere. Some will flow into rarities.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Well, just Love coins, period.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Cool coin reguardless of price.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>I think it is a little sad when US treasures leave for other countries but since our laws don't prevent it and we live in a Global Economy this will become the norm more and more unless coin collecting can become a little more sexy in the US and US buyers are willing to out bid the international buyers. This will add to the challenges of putting together TOP SETS when things are scattered further and further apart in family collections that are passed on to generation after generation without them being sold. >>
I collect French First Edition books from the 1800's. I became intrigued with them when i worked out of Europe most of the year in the 90's. I'm sure the French hate it when some of "their" treasures leave the country. I do understand your point Greg.
I also collect wine (small time hood ). Let's go back to the French. Trust me, if it wasn't for Asia the French wine market would have collapsed during the financial crisis. Asia was buying and supporting all the physical wine and the first growth futures during that period. Today the market couldn't be much stronger. It is so strong that some of the top producers are suspending selling futures and will just cellar their own wine. Sort of what Legend is doing with the 1794 dollar. They know when they have a winner. Napa Valley needs to send a thank you note as well to China/Japan/HK. So yes, to your point it is a global economy. Thank goodness.
Asia has always had a fascination with Americana. From jeans to our music. The amount of wealth in Asia at the top 1% is STAGGERING. It has to go somewhere. Some will flow into rarities.
MJ >>
This. First hand.
<< <i>I think Martin got the last laugh on TDN. Once he recieves his settlement check he may come on here and proclaim it to only be a 5 mil coin. as others before. >>
Martin is a class act. He would never do that. He simply is moving on to a new adventure in the coin hobby just as Legend/Tradedollarnut are doing.
Don't you see???? They are both time travelers like most of us in this great hobby? Only the number of zeros after the first number is different on what it takes to buy their coins.
Steve: Thanks for bringing that up ... I had forgotten about it.
Yes, gold outperformed this mega rarity and that is even with gold being down 3% in the past 12 months! Additionally, you do not have the selling expense with gold that you do with this coin. No doubt Stacks/Bowers returned a decent portion of the buyers' fee to Martin but the typical buy/sell spread on a large bullion transaction is between 1%-2%. In other words, gold did even better than the raw numbers when looking at the net numbers.
So, to repeat my observation, Legend essentially paid 6,033 ozs. of gold for this coin with gold spot at $1,660/oz. Let's once again come back in 3-5 years and see how this mega rarity performed as compared to a 6,033 oz. gold position. That should be interesting.
Also, consider that it would have cost Martin 6,500 ozs. of gold for this coin when he purchased it. But, it only cost Legend 6,033 ozs. of gold to buy it this week! If this trend continues in less than 100 years Oreville's heirs will be able to purchase this coin if he starts stocking up on gold bullion ASAP!
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>I think Martin got the last laugh on TDN. Once he recieves his settlement check he may come on here and proclaim it to only be a 5 mil coin. as others before. >>
Martin is a class act. He would never do that. He simply is moving on to a new adventure in the coin hobby just as Legend/Tradedollarnut are doing.
Don't you see???? They are both time travelers like most of us in this great hobby? Only the number of zeros after the first number is different on what it takes to buy their coins. >>
I also disagree. That coin still has upside potential. $10M shocks people now, but in the world of rare collectibles (particularly fine art) this figure doesn't mean much. Legend also will benefit
from tons of publicity that will no doubt attract additional clients from around the world. Buying this coin was a gutsy, shrewd move.
And don't even try to compare this with gold bullion. There have been many years when gold went nowhere. The market influences concerning bullion and rare coins (or other collectibles) don't exactly coincide. The reasons for
putting $10M in gold vs. this coin aren't the same either. Is there any special pride of ownership where bullion gold is concerned? No
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
The 1794 has increased in price 5,000 to 10,000X. The graph was too small to get the exact 1947 price. No doubt it got some additional "recognition" in the past 20 yrs that has boosted its price considerably. In that same time frame silver has increased in price no more than 100X. Gold around 43X. So clearly, this coin has put it an amazing performance in the past 65 yrs during a very inflationary period almost custom made for it. Not much outperforms gold and silver during their cyclical bull markets lasting approx 17-18 years on average. Like anything else, it pays to be on the right side of a 20 yr cycle when investing/speculating. The rarities usually don't have big down cycles. But in the case of the 1794$ it did drop from $1 MILL to just over $400K during the fallout of the 1989 bull market. I wonder how much of that price drop was just liquidity, and not actually the value of the coin. It sold for a little over $250K in the mid-1980's at Stack's Amon Carter sale. Gold had a 71% drop from 1980 to 2001. Good things do have big drops from time to time. Gold and silver are still consolidating their moves from Oct 2008-2011. There is still another major leg up to come in the next 2-5 yrs. At that time Wondercoin can write the final act of the 1794$ vs. gold.
That being said I still wish I had $10M in play money to buy coins like that! And, I think that Sperber did sum up the gut-churning feelings of bidding on a special coin at auction quite nicely.
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but:
1) I suppose the PCGS color guarantee applies, as the coin was holdered before their cut-off re copper color can be proven re provenance.
2) Braided Hair RD copper is not difficult to find for the 1850s. 5 RDs are readily available, except for the 1857. While many aren't anything special to look at, a number of them I've seen are attractive coins. Paying large multiples of sheet for a late date Braided Hair Large Cent in 5 RD strikes me like paying large premiums for say, a colorful 1881 S Morgan.
3) Paying a large sum for a genuinely rare coin, like Laura's 1794 dollar is one thing. I get that. Paying such a premium for a relatively common coin is another matter.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Change in ownership voids the warranty after the rule change, as I recall.
<< <i>LEGEND IS MARKET LEADER, NOT A FOLLOWER >>
Good statement
<< <i>Please correct me if I am mistaken, but:
1) I suppose the PCGS color guarantee applies, as the coin was holdered before their cut-off re copper color can be proven re provenance. >>
Unfortunately, a change of ownership after 1/1/10 kills the color guarantee.
Lance.
http://www.legendcoin.com/cgi-bin/inventory/cms2.pl?page=market_report&article=307
Video of the actual bidding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyIdC3j5Krg
And here's some background on the theory of "jump bidding", aka "shock and awe", in case people are not familiar with it:
http://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/cavery/Strategic%20Jump%20Bidding%20in%20English%20Auctions.pdf
<< <i>The 'it's all about money' aspect of that report sickens me. >>
That's not fair, Laura's job as a dealer is to dig up special coins and protect her clients interests. Consider that most people would consider taking advantage of buyers = losing money, she is simply laying out the blue print for her segment of the market that has made her and plenty of others around her lots of money and built world class collections. If all others were so forth coming.
If you get your kicks off on more historical niches with less concern for profits and preservation, that doesn't make you a more enlightened collector, just different. And she isn't writing it from a collectors perspective anyway. Beside I would be willing to put her actual scholarly merits up against many of the people who look down on her.
I enjoyed reading that again. Last night at dinner the subject came up and we relayed to two clients how it was six months of hell planning for the coin. Reading Laura's words just reinforces that in my mind.
I know Laura really well, and she is hardly anything like how her detractors portray her. The fact that she's been a lightening rod on issues means that she's a lot more than people see.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com