<< <i>Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the blue holders (the newer ones) were used exclusively for reholdered old ANACS coins to indicate that they are not covered by the new ANACS's guarantee which applies to the yellow/gold holders only. >>
Based on the CDN CMI they are essentially even at 67% with ICG a tad higher. PCGS and NGC are roughly even at 83%. So a statement ANACS and ICG are tied for third would be one I would agree with.
Most of my ANACS and ICG coins are gone having been cracked and submitted to NGC (direct submittal) or PCGS via Teletrade raw coin service. An ICG modern commem dollar graded MS70 is about to be cracked and sent to NGC along with some other coins.
As far as the others PCI (they are still grading coins?) After my first (and only) submission to them when they first came out both myself and a friend shook our heads and he said "they don't know how to grade." Then we both laughed at the hair inside the slabs and he said "what did they do grade these in a barn?" For years after that I would pick off PCI circulated coins they had undergraded and got higher grades somewhere else. They were horrible on mods too grading obvious 69-70's at 66 or 67. I remember a 1909-O $5 Indian offered me in a PCI XF 45 slab for $700 at a show in the early 1990's which was an obvious AU 58 or better with really nice luster but some noticeable patch of hairlines (or cleaning marks) on the reverse. I frankly think it was a cleaned details coin by todays standards and this was before the PCI red holder. No way I was touching that one but a dealer from Louisiana bought and took a chance on it. He may have cracked it and put it in a raw 2x2 marked "CH BU" for his shop. I remember a guy coming by my table in 2003 with a box of SEGS slabs everyone was passing on them or offering him MS60 bluebook. I have not seen anyone since with that many SEGS coins.
I remember a guy coming out with a currency grading service shortly after CGA. He was so incompetent he could not even line up the numerical grades consistently with the descriptions in the greensheet or industry calling 65 choice cu. After getting getting a submission back and angry at this I called him on it and after some conversation he hung up on me. Shortly after he folded.
<< <i>Based on the CDN CMI they are essentially even at 67% with ICG a tad higher. PCGS and NGC are even at 83%. So a statement ANACS and ICG are tied for third would be true. >>
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
I read the replies regarding NGC, but when PCGS still will not grade so many items a person has no choice.
I called them recently on some really nice foreign Medals and Jetons (one 18th century) they asked me to send in photos and info. I sent in the photos, cataloging descriptions and references, and auction history. They said that dept would review it, they did-NO.
So as long as that is the case, what choice do we have.
NumbersUsa, FairUs, Alipac, CapsWeb, and TeamAmericaPac
I'm surprised at all the negative remarks in this thread directed against NGC. Are they really that bad or have you guys just been drinking too much Kool Aid?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I'm surprised at all the negative remarks in this thread directed against NGC. Are they really that bad or have you guys just been drinking too much Kool Aid? >>
It's new and improved, extra-strength Kool Aid. The vast majority of dealers and collectors, otherwise known as "the market" do not support this position.
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” — Benjamin Franklin
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
I use ICG mostly due to the fact that I can hand them a coin at the shows that they are at and their representative will tell me a grade and whether that coin is worthwhile encapsulating or not. I am not to sure if any other TPG will do that at a show. I also have no problems when submitting error / variety coins and using the various filing numbers in the many different systems in variety community.
Yes, I do know graders in both ICG and NGC, but that does not influence my decision on which company to use. The graders that I do know are excellent in what they do and it is no matter what company they are from. It is company policies that seem to gum up the works for me.
PCGS does not encapsulate minor varieties and the varieties that they do encapsulate tend to have a hefty fee attached for doing so. I am also not to sure if PCGS is still following the CPG as a guide for encapsulation or not. I do know that they use to.
NGC as far as encapsulation of varieties and errors is a big ? for me. I just do not know.
ICG and ANACS do encapsulate varieties, minor or not and will more than likely use the variety number system that you want on the label; Wexler's, CONECA, Coppercoin's, Traildies, MADdieclashes, etc. and their fees for variety and error encapsulation is much less the the "upper" tier TPGs.
If I had one complaint to air concerning the encapsulation of variety and error coins it would be the mis-labeling of certain those coins. No one company is above this fault and I have encountered mistakes from each TPG; some serious, some laughable and some not so serious. What does count is the way that the company handles such mistakes and I do know from experience that ICG gets a gold star for correcting their mis-labelings.
<< <i>#1. PCGS #2. NGC #3.ANACS That's it!!! As for me, there is no other than these three,period! sorry, my thoughts. >>
That's really the only logical answer based on market acceptance (price for the same quality in the same holder) and liquidity. You will always find great, good, and lousy coins in anyone's holders. A coin to coin comparison is useless. You need to consider comparing the complete 25 year body of work, not just a single coin.
It certainly still does come down to the coin. But to get PCGS or even NGC prices for an ANACS or ICG coin, that thing better be killer...better yet, an upgrade shot. No one will give you solid PCGS or NGC coin money for an equivalent "appearing" quality ANACS or ICG coin. In 19th century mint state type coinage my experiences are that ANACS and ICG are essentially raw coins selling for what their most likely conservative grade is. If the assigned grade was MS64 then more than likely it will fetch MS63 PCGS/NGC money. If the OP's orig question is about all the various types of services offered, then that is quite different that grading accuracy and repeatability. There are tons of high quality NGC coins out there, many are now stickered. But, they don't bring PCGS stickered money either unless the coins are very solid or even higher end for the grade. It's sort of irrelevant on how ANACS and ICG compare as the current market from a pricing and liquidity standpoint focuses only on PCGS and NGC. Try to sell either an ANACS or ICG coin sight-unseen to see how relevant they are in today's market. I love the early ANACS, ICG, and PCI holders where undergrades to current market grading can often be found. But those don't come along much any more. For me, it's been easier to cross ANACS type coins than NGC (I'm 100% with ANACS crosses to PCGS....0% with NGC crosses....and 100% on PCGS old holder regrades into upgrades).
<< <i>When ICG first started, IMO, they were the most accurate and consistent of all the services. Unfortunately those days are long gone, as are most of the coins in early ICG slabs. >>
I agree that when ICG first began it was very conservative, and I have had much success with the older holders crossing at or near grade to PCGS. The most recent was an ICG MS66 silver dollar (submitted in the holder) that just came back PCGS MS65+.
This thread was not started to rank the grading services top to bottom, however it has come down to such a ranking. I thought PCGS CU forum monitors were to scratch such threads. Guess they are busy elsewhere, so I will slam as I will.
Since the CU monitors are busy elsewhere, I will further give my personal opinions of the grading services available today. PCGS is most certainly the premier grading service. Anyone that does not understand this, needs help in reality. All of the rest of the grading services are far below PCGS status, in my opinion, including the second place grading service NGC. How can anyone doubt the auction prices realized? Money talks! You must be asleep, if you do not realize the difference in auction prices realized for PCGS coins versus the other grading services coins. NGC is certainly very important as a coin grading service, but they are no where up there with PCGS. Sorry NGC lovers, but I am firm in my beliefs.
I hear that there are other current grading services. ANACS has a place in grading lower valued coins for collectors. That is the ANACS place as a coin grading service, for coin collectors of lower priced coins. ANACS graded coins however, do not bring even near the prices of NGC. ICG coins are considered as raw coins most everywhere I have looked, especially including auctions. JMHO
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
<< <i>This thread was not started to rank the grading services top to bottom, however it has come down to such a ranking. I thought PCGS CU forum monitors were to scratch such threads. Guess they are busy elsewhere, so I will slam as I will.
Since the CU monitors are busy elsewhere, I will further give my personal opinions of the grading services available today. PCGS is most certainly the premier grading service. Anyone that does not understand this, needs help in reality. All of the rest of the grading services are far below PCGS status, in my opinion, including the second place grading service NGC. How can anyone doubt the auction prices realized? Money talks! You must be asleep, if you do not realize the difference in auction prices realized for PCGS coins versus the other grading services coins. NGC is certainly very important as a coin grading service, but they are no where up there with PCGS. Sorry NGC lovers, but I am firm in my beliefs.
I hear that there are other current grading services. ANACS has a place in grading lower valued coins for collectors. That is the ANACS place as a coin grading service, for coin collectors of lower priced coins. ANACS graded coins however, do not bring even near the prices of NGC. ICG coins are considered as raw coins most everywhere I have looked, especially including auctions. JMHO >>
In everything you stated; EXACTLY!!!
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
I consider ANACS and ICG to be about equal. They may be considered second tier grading services but they are far better than buying coins raw.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>This thread was not started to rank the grading services top to bottom, however it has come down to such a ranking. I thought PCGS CU forum monitors were to scratch such threads. Guess they are busy elsewhere, so I will slam as I will.
Since the CU monitors are busy elsewhere, I will further give my personal opinions of the grading services available today. PCGS is most certainly the premier grading service. Anyone that does not understand this, needs help in reality. All of the rest of the grading services are far below PCGS status, in my opinion, including the second place grading service NGC. How can anyone doubt the auction prices realized? Money talks! You must be asleep, if you do not realize the difference in auction prices realized for PCGS coins versus the other grading services coins. NGC is certainly very important as a coin grading service, but they are no where up there with PCGS. Sorry NGC lovers, but I am firm in my beliefs.
I hear that there are other current grading services. ANACS has a place in grading lower valued coins for collectors. That is the ANACS place as a coin grading service, for coin collectors of lower priced coins. ANACS graded coins however, do not bring even near the prices of NGC. ICG coins are considered as raw coins most everywhere I have looked, especially including auctions. JMHO >>
I still don't understand what market price has to do with grading status. Does PCGS often bring a higher price on resale than NGC or ANACS? Yes, but the seller also likely paid less for them in the first place so what difference does it make?
How is paying 1000 dollars for a coin in PCGS plastic then selling it years laster for 1100 dollars any better than buying the same coin in a NGC holder for 850 and selling it for 950 after the same amount of time? If anything, you made a better investment with the NGC coin.
To me grading status depends on consistancy based on that individual company's grading scale--not on what the same coin would be called in different holders. It makes me absolutely no difference if ANACS would call a coin 66 and therefore worth 1500 dollars while PCGS would call it a 64 that was also worth 1500 dollars--as long as it would stay a 66 at ANACS or a 64 at PCGS.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
The question of "Do you think NGC or PCGS is better?" should be rephrased to say "In which TPG's forum do you have a higher post count?"
Saying that PCGS grades coins at a higher standard and then saying that PCGS coins sell for more than equivalently graded coins at other services is at the least inconsistent.
I find it interesting to see the special areas where posters see grading services differently than I do, in my restricted areas of collecting, same with some other posters in their even smaller areas of collecting.
The PCGS CU moderator must be thinking this thread is not a bashing thread, seems fine to me.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
I am quite happy with Anacs as the price for grading is much less than the others and the quality is still there. I then have graded coins at a price I can afford and the coins are protected. The extra money I save is worth it to me and if I sell one I am happy with making less and I know my customer is going to be happier than they would have been with a raw coin.
-Grading is subjective. -The coin is what matters. -Coins that grade the same are still not equal as one may have different characteristics in terms of lustre or originality. -The question seems to imply that one can provide a quantitative ranking based on numbers that have meaning -The problem is the subjective analysis ends at the time the quantitative analysis begins
If you look at plastic and the paper label before you look at or notice the coin, you collect plastic and paper and what is in the plastic is of a secondary consideration... that my friends is not a compelling foundation for collecting coins.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I go by the CDN CMI when comparing grading services. My inventory consists about 95% PCGS and NGC coins (the rest some inexpensive ANACS, ICG). I price the coin and where it falls in the grade range, who's holder its in or even if its slabbed is a moot issue to me and I could care less what people think about it. My nicer raw coins (not worth paying a slab fee), I self slab them with my grade anyway. However, money talks and I have crossed a number of ANACS and ICG coins recently to NGC (submittals) and PCGS (Teletrade Raw Coin Service).
-Grading is subjective. -The coin is what matters. -Coins that grade the same are still not equal as one may have different characteristics in terms of lustre or originality. -The question seems to imply that one can provide a quantitative ranking based on numbers that have meaning -The problem is the subjective analysis ends at the time the quantitative analysis begins
If you look at plastic and the paper label before you look at or notice the coin, you collect plastic and paper and what is in the plastic is of a secondary consideration... that my friends is not a compelling foundation for collecting coins. >>
Couldn't have said it better myself! For me I don't care what holder a coin is in. My in hand inspection is what is going to be the deciding factor of weather or not I'm going to pull my wallet out or not. If an in hand inspection is not possible and I can only go by pics, good images are a must and a return policy is also a must!
Comments
<< <i>Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that the blue holders (the newer ones) were used exclusively for reholdered old ANACS coins to indicate that they are not covered by the new ANACS's guarantee which applies to the yellow/gold holders only. >>
Absolutely not true.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Most of my ANACS and ICG coins are gone having been cracked and submitted to NGC (direct submittal) or PCGS via Teletrade raw coin service. An ICG modern commem dollar graded MS70 is about to be cracked and sent to NGC along with some other coins.
As far as the others PCI (they are still grading coins?) After my first (and only) submission to them when they first came out both myself and a friend shook our heads and he said "they don't know how to grade." Then we both laughed at the hair inside the slabs and he said "what did they do grade these in a barn?" For years after that I would pick off PCI circulated coins they had undergraded and got higher grades somewhere else. They were horrible on mods too grading obvious 69-70's at 66 or 67. I remember a 1909-O $5 Indian offered me in a PCI XF 45 slab for $700 at a show in the early 1990's which was an obvious AU 58 or better with really nice luster but some noticeable patch of hairlines (or cleaning marks) on the reverse. I frankly think it was a cleaned details coin by todays standards and this was before the PCI red holder. No way I was touching that one but a dealer from Louisiana bought and took a chance on it. He may have cracked it and put it in a raw 2x2 marked "CH BU" for his shop. I remember a guy coming by my table in 2003 with a box of SEGS slabs everyone was passing on them or offering him MS60 bluebook. I have not seen anyone since with that many SEGS coins.
I remember a guy coming out with a currency grading service shortly after CGA. He was so incompetent he could not even line up the numerical grades consistently with the descriptions in the greensheet or industry calling 65 choice cu. After getting getting a submission back and angry at this I called him on it and after some conversation he hung up on me. Shortly after he folded.
<< <i>Based on the CDN CMI they are essentially even at 67% with ICG a tad higher. PCGS and NGC are even at 83%. So a statement ANACS and ICG are tied for third would be true. >>
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I called them recently on some really nice foreign Medals and Jetons (one 18th century) they asked me to send in photos and info.
I sent in the photos, cataloging descriptions and references, and auction history. They said that dept would review it, they did-NO.
So as long as that is the case, what choice do we have.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I'm surprised at all the negative remarks in this thread directed against NGC. Are they really that bad or have you guys just been drinking too much Kool Aid? >>
It's new and improved, extra-strength Kool Aid. The vast majority of dealers and collectors, otherwise known as "the market" do not support this position.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
Yes, I do know graders in both ICG and NGC, but that does not influence my decision on which company to use. The graders that I do know are excellent in what they do and it is no matter what company they are from. It is company policies that seem to gum up the works for me.
PCGS does not encapsulate minor varieties and the varieties that they do encapsulate tend to have a hefty fee attached for doing so. I am also not to sure if PCGS is still following the CPG as a guide for encapsulation or not. I do know that they use to.
NGC as far as encapsulation of varieties and errors is a big ? for me. I just do not know.
ICG and ANACS do encapsulate varieties, minor or not and will more than likely use the variety number system that you want on the label; Wexler's, CONECA, Coppercoin's, Traildies, MADdieclashes, etc. and their fees for variety and error encapsulation is much less the the "upper" tier TPGs.
If I had one complaint to air concerning the encapsulation of variety and error coins it would be the mis-labeling of certain those coins. No one company is above this fault and I have encountered mistakes from each TPG; some serious, some laughable and some not so serious. What does count is the way that the company handles such mistakes and I do know from experience that ICG gets a gold star for correcting their mis-labelings.
<< <i>#1. PCGS #2. NGC #3.ANACS That's it!!! As for me, there is no other than these three,period! sorry, my thoughts. >>
That's really the only logical answer based on market acceptance (price for the same quality in the same holder) and liquidity. You will always find great, good, and lousy coins
in anyone's holders. A coin to coin comparison is useless. You need to consider comparing the complete 25 year body of work, not just a single coin.
It certainly still does come down to the coin. But to get PCGS or even NGC prices for an ANACS or ICG coin, that thing better be killer...better yet, an upgrade shot. No one will give you solid PCGS or NGC coin money for an equivalent "appearing" quality ANACS or ICG coin. In 19th century mint state type coinage my experiences are that ANACS and ICG are essentially raw coins selling for what their most likely conservative grade is. If the assigned grade was MS64 then more than likely it will fetch MS63 PCGS/NGC money. If the OP's orig question is about all the various types of services offered, then that is quite different that grading accuracy and repeatability. There are tons of high quality NGC coins out there, many are now stickered. But, they don't bring PCGS stickered money either unless the coins are very solid or even higher end for the grade. It's sort of irrelevant on how ANACS and ICG compare as the current market from a pricing and liquidity standpoint focuses only on PCGS and NGC. Try to sell either an ANACS or ICG coin sight-unseen to see how relevant they are in today's market. I love the early ANACS, ICG, and PCI holders where undergrades to current market grading can often be found. But those don't come along much any more. For me, it's been easier to cross ANACS type coins than NGC (I'm 100% with ANACS crosses to PCGS....0% with NGC crosses....and 100% on PCGS old holder regrades into upgrades).
<< <i>When ICG first started, IMO, they were the most accurate and consistent of all the services. Unfortunately those days are long gone, as are most of the coins in early ICG slabs. >>
I agree that when ICG first began it was very conservative, and I have had much success with the older holders crossing at or near grade to PCGS. The most recent was an ICG MS66 silver dollar (submitted in the holder) that just came back PCGS MS65+.
2. ANACS/ICG
3. Everyone else
JMO
Since the CU monitors are busy elsewhere, I will further give my personal opinions of the grading services available today. PCGS is most certainly the premier grading service. Anyone that does not understand this, needs help in reality. All of the rest of the grading services are far below PCGS status, in my opinion, including the second place grading service NGC. How can anyone doubt the auction prices realized? Money talks! You must be asleep, if you do not realize the difference in auction prices realized for PCGS coins versus the other grading services coins. NGC is certainly very important as a coin grading service, but they are no where up there with PCGS. Sorry NGC lovers, but I am firm in my beliefs.
I hear that there are other current grading services.
<< <i>This thread was not started to rank the grading services top to bottom, however it has come down to such a ranking. I thought PCGS CU forum monitors were to scratch such threads. Guess they are busy elsewhere, so I will slam as I will.
Since the CU monitors are busy elsewhere, I will further give my personal opinions of the grading services available today. PCGS is most certainly the premier grading service. Anyone that does not understand this, needs help in reality. All of the rest of the grading services are far below PCGS status, in my opinion, including the second place grading service NGC. How can anyone doubt the auction prices realized? Money talks! You must be asleep, if you do not realize the difference in auction prices realized for PCGS coins versus the other grading services coins. NGC is certainly very important as a coin grading service, but they are no where up there with PCGS. Sorry NGC lovers, but I am firm in my beliefs.
I hear that there are other current grading services.
In everything you stated; EXACTLY!!!
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>From the historical perspective ANACS is higher than ICG, but over the past few years since ANACS was sold, ICG is ahead of ANACS. >>
+ 1
<< <i>This thread was not started to rank the grading services top to bottom >>
+1
i don't know why i posted. moment of fatigue probably. be fine with me to see it poof. such an inquiry is too subjective.
.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>This thread was not started to rank the grading services top to bottom, however it has come down to such a ranking. I thought PCGS CU forum monitors were to scratch such threads. Guess they are busy elsewhere, so I will slam as I will.
Since the CU monitors are busy elsewhere, I will further give my personal opinions of the grading services available today. PCGS is most certainly the premier grading service. Anyone that does not understand this, needs help in reality. All of the rest of the grading services are far below PCGS status, in my opinion, including the second place grading service NGC. How can anyone doubt the auction prices realized? Money talks! You must be asleep, if you do not realize the difference in auction prices realized for PCGS coins versus the other grading services coins. NGC is certainly very important as a coin grading service, but they are no where up there with PCGS. Sorry NGC lovers, but I am firm in my beliefs.
I hear that there are other current grading services.
I still don't understand what market price has to do with grading status. Does PCGS often bring a higher price on resale than NGC or ANACS? Yes, but the seller also likely paid less for them in the first place so what difference does it make?
How is paying 1000 dollars for a coin in PCGS plastic then selling it years laster for 1100 dollars any better than buying the same coin in a NGC holder for 850 and selling it for 950 after the same amount of time? If anything, you made a better investment with the NGC coin.
To me grading status depends on consistancy based on that individual company's grading scale--not on what the same coin would be called in different holders. It makes me absolutely no difference if ANACS would call a coin 66 and therefore worth 1500 dollars while PCGS would call it a 64 that was also worth 1500 dollars--as long as it would stay a 66 at ANACS or a 64 at PCGS.
Saying that PCGS grades coins at a higher standard and then saying that PCGS coins sell for more than equivalently graded coins at other services is at the least inconsistent.
This thread is overrun with
The PCGS CU moderator must be thinking this thread is not a bashing thread, seems fine to me.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Let me write this directly and to the point.
-Grading is subjective.
-The coin is what matters.
-Coins that grade the same are still not equal as one may have different characteristics in terms of lustre or originality.
-The question seems to imply that one can provide a quantitative ranking based on numbers that have meaning
-The problem is the subjective analysis ends at the time the quantitative analysis begins
If you look at plastic and the paper label before you look at or notice the coin, you collect plastic and paper and what is in the plastic is of a secondary consideration... that my friends is not a compelling foundation for collecting coins.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>ANACS, ICG, PCGS, NGC do not rank...
Let me write this directly and to the point.
-Grading is subjective.
-The coin is what matters.
-Coins that grade the same are still not equal as one may have different characteristics in terms of lustre or originality.
-The question seems to imply that one can provide a quantitative ranking based on numbers that have meaning
-The problem is the subjective analysis ends at the time the quantitative analysis begins
If you look at plastic and the paper label before you look at or notice the coin, you collect plastic and paper and what is in the plastic is of a secondary consideration... that my friends is not a compelling foundation for collecting coins. >>
Couldn't have said it better myself! For me I don't care what holder a coin is in. My in hand inspection is what is going to be the deciding factor of weather or not I'm going to pull my wallet out or not. If an in hand inspection is not possible and I can only go by pics, good images are a must and a return policy is also a must!