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The problem with requiring a CAC sticker before you buy a coin, or bid on one in an auction
TahoeDale
Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
Are you one of the many(?) collectors who now require a coin to be stickered before you would consider buying it,
or paying full market value, or even possibly a premium?
I am not sure how many coins have been seen by this service, but it has to be a very small % of all graded coins.
The last 2 coins I have purchased, paying a premium for both, had no sticker, and I assume they had not ever
been submitted for approval. If they had, and were turned down for some reason, that would not have affected the
price I was willing to pay. I luckily have the ability to grade in the series I collect.
But if you do require the "approval", and are willing to pay premium money for only those coins, boy are you missing out!!
Check out the latest listings by Legend Morphy for the July sale at PCGS Vegas. Some very nice coins are going to be overlooked,
if the criteria above is adhered to.
or paying full market value, or even possibly a premium?
I am not sure how many coins have been seen by this service, but it has to be a very small % of all graded coins.
The last 2 coins I have purchased, paying a premium for both, had no sticker, and I assume they had not ever
been submitted for approval. If they had, and were turned down for some reason, that would not have affected the
price I was willing to pay. I luckily have the ability to grade in the series I collect.
But if you do require the "approval", and are willing to pay premium money for only those coins, boy are you missing out!!
Check out the latest listings by Legend Morphy for the July sale at PCGS Vegas. Some very nice coins are going to be overlooked,
if the criteria above is adhered to.
TahoeDale
0
Comments
The sticker doesn't mean squat to me!
It's just one persons opinion.....and you know what they say about opinions.
I've seen stickered coins that were butt ugly and overgraded.
BS. I will take JA's skill level over yours any day. You just went overboard over an AT'd polished coin - you really don't have a leg to stand on making comments like that.
<< <i>I completely agree with you.
The sticker doesn't mean squat to me!
It's just one persons opinion.....and you know what they say about opinions.
I've seen stickered coins that were butt ugly and overgraded. >>
Question for you Dimeman - do you think a CAC sticker makes a coin more liquid when trying to sell?
Mind? No.
Like? Sure.
Not all my coins have seen CAC (it costs $$$) and I had many coins before CAC. I have a couple of coins (four figures) that aren't CAC'ed and I am ok with that. I like the coin and bought the coin.
I do not, however, hold anything against CAC and I don't mind the extra opinion.
I will not require it though (our everyman's 1/2c collection has mostly CAC'ed coins, but it was not a requirement. Matter of fact, most were submitted by me, last year, and I had all but a couple CAC...the couple that didn't were "nice coins, and would CAC at a grade lower", but it's an opinion and I paid what I felt the coin was worth).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
My decisions don't turn on the sticker.
80-100% rate that many other seasoned forum collectors have experienced in their respective areas. And frankly, if you're paying full sticker price for a coin that doesn't yet have one,
and ends up not getting one, you're out 10-35% depending on grade/TPG holder. At least that's what I see in gem silver type. That game is no different than buying fresh, old holdered
collections that have been off the market for 15-25 years. In order to buy those types of coins you almost have to pay upgrade money. How did that Silbermunzen auction turn out for
so many old holdered coins that were perceived as upgrades? It's essentially a similar game with the stickers. If one really wants to show off their "grading chops" go out and
buy decent unstickered NGC gem type coins that you like for PCGS equivalent money. Then let us know how things go with crosses/stickers. If I don't like a stickered coin I won't buy
it. I've seen a few, including an NGC MS68 bust half that I didn't like. But, for the most part I've been ok with 75% or more of the stickered coins I see.
<< <i>I've seen stickered coins that were butt ugly and overgraded. >>
I agree with you!
Only in the eyes of brainwashed people who believe JA is the all knowing coin god, which he is not.
TDN - On the dime.....all I said is that it should have graded. It's a 63 all day. There were quite a few others who agreed with me.
<< <i>I've seen stickered coins that were butt ugly and overgraded.
BS. I will take JA's skill level over yours any day. You just went overboard over an AT'd polished coin - you really don't have a leg to stand on making comments like that. >>
x2.
Until a collector knows how to identify all the different methods coin doctors use to alter coins, they are playing a fools game by paying large amounts of money for coins that are not CAC'd. There is a big difference between knowing how to grade and how to identify doctored coins.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>The sticker doesn't mean squat to me!
It's just one persons opinion.....and you know what they say about opinions.
The numbers on the labels in the plastic holders people buy are opinions, too.
Just sayin'...
<< <i>I've seen stickered coins that were butt ugly and overgraded.
BS. I will take JA's skill level over yours any day. You just went overboard over an AT'd polished coin - you really don't have a leg to stand on making comments like that. >>
TDN, that was a rather crass comment, don't you think? I mean, DIMEMAN stated his opinion, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I actually share his opinion, as I have also stated that an errant CAC coin "here-and-there" is over-graded and/or less than attractive. Let the man have his opinion.
By the way, you are surely aware that CAC has reconsidered certain coins that they stickered, and later took them off of the market because they felt that they made an error. You are, aren't you? I mean, you should be, considering your close relationship with JA. We all make mistakes. (that last sentence was intended for the human beings on this forum)
Just to be clear, I personally feel that JA is one of the most talented numismatists in the world. He is also very ethical and an asset to our hobby. No doubt about those facts. However, not everyone is required to agree with what he says every darn, single time. Unless of course you are a Kool-Aid-drinking sheep.
However, it can also be reassuring for buyers to know that a second (or is it third) set of eyes agrees about the quality of the coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>I've seen stickered coins that were butt ugly and overgraded.
BS. I will take JA's skill level over yours any day. You just went overboard over an AT'd polished coin - you really don't have a leg to stand on making comments like that. >>
TDN, that was a rather crass comment, don't you think? I mean, DIMEMAN stated his opinion, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I actually share his opinion, as I have also stated that an errant CAC coin "here-and-there" is over-graded and/or less than attractive. Let the man have his opinion.
By the way, you are surely aware that CAC has reconsidered certain coins that they stickered, and later took them off of the market because they felt that they made an error. You are, aren't you? I mean, you should be, considering your close relationship with JA. We all make mistakes. (that last sentence was intended for the human beings on this forum)
Just to be clear, I personally feel that JA is one of the most talented numismatists in the world. He is also very ethical and an asset to our hobby. No doubt about those facts. However, not everyone is required to agree with what he says every darn, single time. Unless of course you are a Kool-Aid-drinking sheep. >>
Numisma,
I differ with your assessment of DIMEMAN's comment. He was, I believe, suggesting that his opinion was just as qualified as JA's is. That, to me also, is BS. I don't think TDN was being crass by calling that out. DIMEMAN was showing off his Internet cajones against JA, but without nearly the same recognized credentials.
So, yes, JA is human and can make mistakes. CAC as an org too. But that doesn't negate the utter ridiculousness of DIMEMAN's attitude relative to this topic.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I agree with Bochiman:
<< <i>Require? No.
Mind? No.
Like? Sure.
Not all my coins have seen CAC (it costs $$$) and I had many coins before CAC. I have a couple of coins (four figures) that aren't CAC'ed and I am ok with that. I like the coin and bought the coin. I do not, however, hold anything against CAC and I don't mind the extra opinion. >>
since the advent of his company's position in this hobby.
All I am saying is that most of the coins you or I will have a chance to buy have never seen the light of the stickering phenom, and
at least some that have been turned down are still quite nice, affordable and deserving of market value.
I am going to bid on several of the coins in the upcoming Legend Morphy sale, that have been described as unapproved by CAC, and
in my opinion, are solid for grade. I hope that no one else bids.
And to add perspective which might be part of what the OP was getting at when we talk about the added value that the sticker adds (some might say premium coins already have value add but the same coin brings more with a sticker). By talking about the value add the inverse is te value subtracted which is the coins without and if we are going to be honest, that squarely affects collectors disproportionally as dealers know how to get out from under said problems or should. I see it as more of a dealer boon than a collector aid although it does help collectors on resale for their handful of stickered coins. But If you bought only CAC coins from the jump you would probably pay a bigger premium on the buy side than you would gain in sell side. Basically people are falling for the same conundrum of buy high sell lower, the quality is not the point.
<< <i>I do think CACs business model befits from having 75% of the crap pre-filtered by the big two and then picking the cream of the crop from there without the burden of 30years of cumulative consumer impacting mistakes behind them.
It will be interesting to see if CAC coins need an outside verifier after years of added up missteps or worse if the JA name moves on for what ever reason. >>
It eased the workload, sure. But CAC wasn't likely to misstep on the TPG rejects.
If CAC morphs, all bets are off.
Lance.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I wish JA would tell me why my rejects are rejects. I have some that I really like. >>
Has he not told you when you asked? Or have you not asked?
He tells the people that ask from my understanding.
<< <i>I wish JA would tell me why my rejects are rejects. I have some that I really like. >>
Put a note in with your next submission that you would like to discuss the results. He will be happy to call you.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Numisma,
I differ with your assessment of DIMEMAN's comment. He was, I believe, suggesting that his opinion was just as qualified as JA's is.
So, yes, JA is human and can make mistakes. CAC as an org too......
>>
That's not how I read it though. DIMEMAN simply stated that he's seen CAC coins that were overgraded and "butt ugly". "Butt ugly" is a matter of taste so DM has every right to that opinion. "Overgraded" is also an opinion and if what you said last "JA makes mistakes" then there is no reason to believe DM's statements are trying to equate himself with JA. He's just saying he's seen coins that are ugly.
The problem with all of this is that there is too much generalizing. The fact is each coin needs to be evaluated on its own. When I look at a coin I say to myself "Do I like it". I then look at it closer to see if I roughly agree with the TPG grade. Now with CAC I can also note if JA agrees. At that point I ask the price and negotiate from there.
It's a simple method in that if the coin strikes me as "ugly" I really couldn't CARE LESS what it grades, whether CAC agrees or what the price is. I simply move on to the next coin. So trying to generalize or worry about the whole coin market based a few mistake coins or coins I don't like in the first place strikes me as a big waste of time. I just use the tools available to me to buy coins I like. Simple.
jom
<< <i>I've seen stickered coins that were butt ugly and overgraded.
BS. I will take JA's skill level over yours any day. You just went overboard over an AT'd polished coin - you really don't have a leg to stand on making comments like that. >>
This is akin to saying that if a person lies once, he should never be trusted to tell the truth again. If we are all branded for having made a mistake as unreliable or untrustworthy, who would eventually ever be trusted? Ask people who try to sell CAC'd coins to dealers what the dealers think of JA's expertise . CAC stickers coins with more accuracy than the TPG's variability in grading them - not something a real statistician would be comfortable with.
Lately, I prefer this type of coin over one that's been net-graded and beaned.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
My comments:
1) The market has determined (at least for now) that a coin with a sticker will usually sell for more than a coin without one.
2) A second opinion is useful in many aspects of life.
3) Only one of the opinions was formed with complete visual and tactile access to all surfaces of the coin.
4) Markets and standards can be fickle.
5) A closed-minded, dogmatic approach to anything in numismatics (or life in general) often limits one's ability to see and appreciate a larger world.
6) My ability to identify problems, grade appropriately, and keep myself out of trouble is orders of magnitude lower than PCGS, CAC, or NGC.
7) The rather weighty influence of a single individual on the market may not be entirely healthy in the long term.
8) PQ coins have always sold at a premium. How you identify them is up to you.
9) The coin inside the little plastic thingy does not change, regardless of how many labels, stickers, awards, stars, or opinions it has received.
10) All grading is subjective. The consequences of that truth really, really bother some people.
Personally, I am most comfortable buying expensive coins in PCGS plastic with green stickers. I am perfectly happy buying coins in PCGS plastic without stickers in my primary series or with the approval of a trusted agent. I choose not to look at most coins in NGC plastic, mostly due to registry purposes. I am fully aware that by doing this I'm passing over many very nice coins. I don't see the crossover game as particularly enjoyable or worthwhile, and with few exceptions, I'm not comfortable making the bet that everything will work out after a crackout.
<< <i>I completely agree with you.
The sticker doesn't mean squat to me!
It's just one persons opinion.....and you know what they say about opinions.
I've seen stickered coins that were butt ugly and overgraded. >>
Jom,
I offer you DM's full initial response. He's not just asserting that he disagrees with CAC on some pop of beaned coins, and he's not just asserting that CAC can be wrong.
In the totality of his post, he is asserting that his opinion is just as relevant (or irrelevant) as CAC's. I feel that JA and his CAC folks are much more qualified than DM to render an opinion on the quality of coins. Just compare their credentials.
I think DM was caught waving his Internet cajones around and got called on it.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
At least some that have been turned down are still quite nice, affordable and deserving of market value.
If you choose to limit your purchases to only CAC approved coins you will be overlooking many nice coins.
As TwoSides2aCoin points out "There are a lot of diamonds still in the rough."
If you have the ability to grade and identify the many different methods coin doctors use to alter coins you will do fine.
If your grading and detection skills are good you can save some money on the buy side by purchasing non approved coins
and realize higher prices on the sell side on those coins that CAC approves.
Personally I have found JA's willingness to share his expertise very refreshing and extremely helpful.
I give CAC high marks in the both the seated and trade dollar series. CAC is not perfect but I agree with about 90% of
the approved coins I have seen.
The answer below is nothing more than an ignorant statement.
Do you think a CAC sticker makes a coin more liquid when trying to sell?
"Only in the eyes of brainwashed people who believe JA is the all knowing coin god, which he is not."
I like this one from BryceM quite a bit:
"6) My ability to identify problems, grade appropriately, and keep myself out of trouble is orders of magnitude lower than PCGS, CAC, or NGC."
I've admitted this here and elsewhere and continue to do so. For whatever reason, coin collectors are an interesting, stubborn, fiercely independent mix of people, and many will never want to admit that they "can't grade for themselves." To me, this is another way of saying, "My grading does not need to improve." I have never heard anyone from CAC tell me, "No need for you to learn to grade. Just leave it to us." In fact, the stickers and their explanation of the ones that don't sticker are a tool to improve your grading, if you will acknowledge the need to improve.
By the way, I agree with TahoeDale that there are good unstickered coins out there and to ignore them entirely is close-minded and unfortunate. Let's just say that if I'm spending a good deal of money, I tread quite a bit more carefully.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
<< <i>
<< <i>I've seen stickered coins that were butt ugly and overgraded. >>
I agree with you! >>
I agree also. CAC is a good service, and if some collectors are comfortable with it they should use it, but it is not perfect. You can make purchasing mistakes with it. The point that needs to be made is that a CAC sticker indicates that the dealers who support the service are willing to buy and sell the coins in their marketing network. It does not mean that the coin is "perfect" or "superior" for the grade. It might be those things, and often is, but not all CAC approved coins are "perfect."
I've had experience with two expensive coins, purchased through auctions that missed the mark. CAC bought one of them from me, and I was able return the other one. I've seen coins with CAC stickers that were "off" while reviewing auction lots. There was also the case of a net graded (AU sharpness with damage, net graded to VF) 1807 dime that was discussed extensively ATS. The sticker on that one was ultimately pulled.
Now, the "circle the wagons" guys can come attack me for my views. It is the standard pattern.
If I passed on some of the opportunities I have had to purchase some coins simply because they did not have CAC stickers, I'd be a very frustrated collector. The opportunity to buy some items that have eye appeal with the proper grades only comes occasionally, and making a CAC sticker a requirement only makes that search more difficult.
<< <i>I've seen stickered coins that were butt ugly and overgraded.
BS. I will take JA's skill level over yours any day. >>
Has CAC/JA ever bought back some of their mistakes? If so, isn't it possible there are other mistakes that are still in the marketplace? Is it possible that DIMEMAN saw some of these coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I've seen stickered coins that were butt ugly and overgraded. >>
I agree with you! >>
I agree also. CAC is a good service, and if some collectors are comfortable with it they should use it, but it is not perfect. You can make purchasing mistakes with it. The point that needs to be made is that a CAC sticker indicates that the dealers who support the service are willing to buy and sell the coins in their marketing network. It does not mean that the coin is "perfect" or "superior" for the grade. It might be those things, and often is, but not all CAC approved coins are "perfect."
I've had experience with two expensive coins, purchased through auctions that missed the mark. CAC bought one of them from me, and I was able return the other one. I've seen coins with CAC stickers that were "off" while reviewing auction lots. There was also the case of a net graded (AU sharpness with damage, net graded to VF) 1807 dime that was discussed extensively ATS. The sticker on that one was ultimately pulled.
Now, the "circle the wagons" guys can come attack me for my views. It is the standard pattern.
If I passed on some of the opportunities I have had to purchase some coins simply because they did not have CAC stickers, I'd be a very frustrated collector. The opportunity to buy some items that have eye appeal with the proper grades only comes occasionally, and making a CAC sticker a requirement only makes that search more difficult. >>
What's amazing is that coins that wowed 2 or more graders at PCGS AND also 2 sets of eyes at CAC can still be questionably graded.
"One thing we don't realize is happening is that seeing more bean coins in hand or at shows sharpens the average collectors eye."
Below are some addition positive benefits I have seen.
Helping to identify processed, doctored, and problem coins, thereby improving the overall quality of ones holdings.
Allowing many people to purchase and trade coins with more confidence, helping to strengthen the coin market.
Helping to properly distinguish solid and above average coins from lesser quality coins of the same grade.
Providing feedback on coins that facilitates learning and sharpens the average collectors eye.
without even knowing what you're talking about I'd take TDN's opinion over the "others" you mentioned.
Eric
For instance, how did this coin get into a 67+ holder first of all, but then.....CAC agrees? I added the requirement for "MS65". That gash on the check is certainly not minor, and is certainly in a focal area. Now, the coin is 2 full grades higher, and a "+" and a CAC!!
"MS/PR-65 Minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike"
Images from ha.com
you cannot grade by photography.
It shouldn't come off as a surprise to anybody that people who don't often get involved on the selling side of the hobby would be skeptical of a product that initial metrial contribution to the hobby is to empower the up-sell by dealers on the collectrs buy side. All while devaluing the coins they currently hold without said redundant opinion.
While a net postive by any standard for the hobby it is not without unintended consequences and winners & losers. IMO dealers are way ahead on the real-time winning and losing scale while collectors who use the service to better their collection will win out in the long term.
If not for coins, I would have stressed out raising my kids alone. Now that they're grown and gone, I stress out coin people.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
My rant on CAC was not a personal attack on JA, BUT I feel that I can tell if a coin is nice or not just as good as he can. I have been doing this for over 50 years and it just irritates me when people say that a coin is not any good without the sticker. First of all not all coins have been submitted to CAC so that is totally a moot point. In my search for all dimes and all of the varieties I will look at all coins in all holders or raw coins as well. If I like the coin and I am willing to pay the price...I buy it. Then I send it to PCGS for grading and/or attribution. There are times I disagree with PCGS, but after careful study I can USUALLY see why they did what they did. But not always. And that does not mean I am always wrong and they are always right! But like in sports they are the umpire and their call is the one that counts. In my defense I will say that I have called in and complained about some of their calls and after a second look they saw it differently. This just proves that nobody is right all the time.
I am sure that there are a lot of coins that would sticker, but I never have or ever will send coins to CAC. The coin is what it is and doesn't need a sticker to prove it.
There are still a lot of knowledgeable collectors out there who buy the coin NOT the sticker.
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>There are still a lot of knowledgeable collectors out there who buy the coin NOT the sticker. >>
And there are collectors, like you, who don't follow this maxim if the coin happens to be in an NGC holder!
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
<< <i>Hey, it is what it is. I try to tell it like it is and if some of my poorly constructed sentences offend some I'm sorry for that.
My rant on CAC was not a personal attack on JA, BUT I feel that I can tell if a coin is nice or not just as good as he can. I have been doing this for over 50 years and it just irritates me when people say that a coin is not any good without the sticker. First of all not all coins have been submitted to CAC so that is totally a moot point. In my search for all dimes and all of the varieties I will look at all coins in all holders or raw coins as well. If I like the coin and I am willing to pay the price...I buy it. Then I send it to PCGS for grading and/or attribution. There are times I disagree with PCGS, but after careful study I can USUALLY see why they did what they did. But not always. And that does not mean I am always wrong and they are always right! But like in sports they are the umpire and their call is the one that counts. In my defense I will say that I have called in and complained about some of their calls and after a second look they saw it differently. This just proves that nobody is right all the time.
I am sure that there are a lot of coins that would sticker, but I never have or ever will send coins to CAC. The coin is what it is and doesn't need a sticker to prove it.
There are still a lot of knowledgeable collectors out there who buy the coin NOT the sticker. >>
Once you recognize that you can't tell if a coin is nice just as well as he can, then you can start to learn. Look - I won the PCGS grading contest one year and was second the next - and I cannot tell the things they can do to coins these days. Yes, without a doubt there are good coins without the CAC sticker - and without a doubt the price per quality is becoming evened out (or perhaps even has swung too far). Buy what you like at a price that seems right but recognized that the price for CAC stickered classic material has a lot to do with the fact that so many coins have been worked over.