Options
PCGS registry sets with coin that wont cross and otherwise don't exist. Something the best coins are
seateddime
Posts: 6,180 ✭✭✭
I buy coins and not holders.
CAC has altered my approach to collecting at the registry level.
Where as my early years of collecting was a raw dansco set I made the move into registry set coins in 2006. At that time Gerry Fortin sold be a MS62 1856 S Dime in an NGC holder to buy a PCGS example of the same coin.
I spent many years focused on either PCGS or NGC coins but the registry set was just NGC as they accepted both coins. There was a time maybe NGC was a little looser on grades but that was long ago and now I find often they are tougher. I often find very lightly cleaned NGC net graded coins and send them to PCGS who will straight grade them. This is true in my experience on Bust coins.
Somewhere about 2011 I began to try to build a PCGS Seated Dime set. With so many duplicates this was easy. Many cross crossed over in 2010 but no much these days.
CAC has altered my approach here. Now in the case of for example my 1877 S Dime NGC MS66 - CAC I attempted 1 time to cross this coin. PCGS did not cross it. The coin, in my opinion is everything I could want in 77-S. They are insanely tough in 65 or better. While I do have a 99.12% PCGS set, many coins are very far from the best I can offer.
Some coins are grandfathered into the Elaisberg set at higher grades and are in NGC holders. They won't cross. I actually own coins that are my competition.
While yes I do have serious overlap to where I have 2 example of the same coin because they are different varieties, I have stopped trying to sell NGC coins to buy PCGS coins. If there is a sticker on an NGC coin AND I like the coin too, that is it. I am done.
Sure if I can upgrade a NGC MS63 CAC that won't cross with a PCGS MS65 CAC I will do it but that is upgrading coins and not plastic.
I have sent coins that should not even exist to PCGS and they don't cross. There is a reason one New Orleans coin is represented by AU in the #1 set, estimated as AU in the Elaisberg set and I have not one but 3 NGC MS examples. PCGS won't cross them because the extra copper content in the coins has resulted in a funky purple skin on all of them.
This is why there has been a shift in my collecting objective and others are going the same route.
Buy the best coin you can afford or locate and even if you can't add it to the PCGS set it is a great value based on what you are going to save.
CAC has afforded me the second opinion I need on my amazing NGC coins that may never be crossed ( I won't try again)
Yes my 1851 O is a MS64 NGC. yeoldeone has an NGC 65 in his NGC #1 set and Gerry Fortin has a NGC63.
There have never been but a lone MS61 PCGS ever offered at auction - nothing finer.
As for the 4 PCGS Unc listed in the pop reports, where are they? At least one is now in a higher grade NGC holder.
I did try and cross 2 coins - MS62 and MS64 - both came back QC.
It is these coins where you have to forget the hope of having you best coins in PCGS plastic. After selling a friend my AU PCGS my set will have to live with a VF35 while my collection sports a MS64.
CAC has altered my approach to collecting at the registry level.
Where as my early years of collecting was a raw dansco set I made the move into registry set coins in 2006. At that time Gerry Fortin sold be a MS62 1856 S Dime in an NGC holder to buy a PCGS example of the same coin.
I spent many years focused on either PCGS or NGC coins but the registry set was just NGC as they accepted both coins. There was a time maybe NGC was a little looser on grades but that was long ago and now I find often they are tougher. I often find very lightly cleaned NGC net graded coins and send them to PCGS who will straight grade them. This is true in my experience on Bust coins.
Somewhere about 2011 I began to try to build a PCGS Seated Dime set. With so many duplicates this was easy. Many cross crossed over in 2010 but no much these days.
CAC has altered my approach here. Now in the case of for example my 1877 S Dime NGC MS66 - CAC I attempted 1 time to cross this coin. PCGS did not cross it. The coin, in my opinion is everything I could want in 77-S. They are insanely tough in 65 or better. While I do have a 99.12% PCGS set, many coins are very far from the best I can offer.
Some coins are grandfathered into the Elaisberg set at higher grades and are in NGC holders. They won't cross. I actually own coins that are my competition.
While yes I do have serious overlap to where I have 2 example of the same coin because they are different varieties, I have stopped trying to sell NGC coins to buy PCGS coins. If there is a sticker on an NGC coin AND I like the coin too, that is it. I am done.
Sure if I can upgrade a NGC MS63 CAC that won't cross with a PCGS MS65 CAC I will do it but that is upgrading coins and not plastic.
I have sent coins that should not even exist to PCGS and they don't cross. There is a reason one New Orleans coin is represented by AU in the #1 set, estimated as AU in the Elaisberg set and I have not one but 3 NGC MS examples. PCGS won't cross them because the extra copper content in the coins has resulted in a funky purple skin on all of them.
This is why there has been a shift in my collecting objective and others are going the same route.
Buy the best coin you can afford or locate and even if you can't add it to the PCGS set it is a great value based on what you are going to save.
CAC has afforded me the second opinion I need on my amazing NGC coins that may never be crossed ( I won't try again)
Yes my 1851 O is a MS64 NGC. yeoldeone has an NGC 65 in his NGC #1 set and Gerry Fortin has a NGC63.
There have never been but a lone MS61 PCGS ever offered at auction - nothing finer.
As for the 4 PCGS Unc listed in the pop reports, where are they? At least one is now in a higher grade NGC holder.
I did try and cross 2 coins - MS62 and MS64 - both came back QC.
It is these coins where you have to forget the hope of having you best coins in PCGS plastic. After selling a friend my AU PCGS my set will have to live with a VF35 while my collection sports a MS64.
I seldom check PM's but do check emails often jason@seated.org
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
0
Comments
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
If you have say an 1868 S MS65 NGC and are showing a PCGS AU50 is this really what it is all about?
Some coins like even a very expensive and tough 1941 S Walker are readily available. Anytime I want to upgrade my killer toned PCGS 64 it is just writing a check. That is easy.
Coins like say an AU 1843 O Seated Dime just are not around for purchase at just about any price unless a collector want to break up a set.
It took me many years to conclude that NGC/CAC coins should get crossed over to PCGS if possible but if they don't cross that NGC coins they stay. There is no other option for a true collector who wants to display the best possible set of coins, not just matching plastic.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>It took me many years to conclude that NGC/CAC coins should get crossed over to PCGS if possible but if they don't cross that NGC coins they stay. There is no other option for a true collector who wants to display the best possible set of coins, not just matching plastic. >>
Of course there is an option: Cross the NGC coins at the grade that PCGS thinks they are.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>
<< <i>It took me many years to conclude that NGC/CAC coins should get crossed over to PCGS if possible but if they don't cross that NGC coins they stay. There is no other option for a true collector who wants to display the best possible set of coins, not just matching plastic. >>
Of course there is an option: Cross the NGC coins at the grade that PCGS thinks they are. >>
You can't cross coins they call Questionable Color. I got 5 of them.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It took me many years to conclude that NGC/CAC coins should get crossed over to PCGS if possible but if they don't cross that NGC coins they stay. There is no other option for a true collector who wants to display the best possible set of coins, not just matching plastic. >>
Of course there is an option: Cross the NGC coins at the grade that PCGS thinks they are. >>
You can't cross coins they call Questionable Color. I got 5 of them. >>
Oh. That's different.
Coin Rarities Online
Commems and Early Type
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>Just so the new collectors don't think this is the gospel, there are gorgeous and properly graded coins in both holders and there are also some veteran collectors who don't seek out plastic, cross-overs, beans, pluses and stars because they can render their own judgement about coins. >>
TPG/plastic is kind of like the advent of using GPS devices in our cars. Nothing wrong with trusting a TPG's grade, but you should really learn to grade for yourself; which seems to be a dying art? Kind of like using a real paper map to navigate ones way around this great country of ours.
<< <i>What interests me is the point of a registry set is to display the BEST coin in your set.
>>
I will agree with what you typed above.
That said, however, the problem you are talking about isn't about a "registry set" but rather about the PCGS registry set.
The way I see it (and, I have coins that won't cross and I agree with NGC, so I have kept the coins but can't put them in our sets at PCGS) is that the PCGS registry set is about displaying the BEST coins in PCGS plastic that you have in your set.
Going into it with that mindset, and enjoying my coins for what they are, I don't worry about it past that.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Maybe CAC grades the solid as in being which holder the coin is in. I don't know and don't really care. PCGS is the best holder to have coins in....period! That is not to say there are not nice coins in ngc holders. There are some nice coins in all holders. I have bought many of my dimes in other holders and then either crossed them to PCGS or cracked them out and sent to PCGS raw. It is all PCGS for me....not because of the plastic, but because I want to be in the PCGS Registry not the ngc registry.
The OP wants to be in the Registry so he has to play by the rules. I and many dealers feel that there is a bias towards NGC coins by PCGS that makes it hard to get something crossed. Many have ceased to try. IMO NGC is much more consisted with their grading than PCGS for the coins I collect. If I grant that PCGS is stricter in their grading then how does one define better - strictness with inconsistency? or looser with consistency? There is no "better". I contend there is simply a preference for some people.
My experiences are so different from this statement.
I've seen all kinds of problem coins that got problem-free NGC grades that PCGS wouldn't touch.
Two coins that PCGS labeled "Genuine Tooled" which NGC graded as problem free (one had an NGC market value of $2,500 and one was closer to $10,000)
A whole slew of colorfully toned coins that NGC graded as problem-free and PCGS labeled "Genuine Questionable Color"
A colorfully toned coin that NGC graded as problem-free and PCGS came back with "Genuine Altered Surface (Lacquer)"
I bought a problem free NGC graded CBH, which PCGS wouldn't grade due to a (too large in their eyes) planchett flaw.
Also when crossing copper coins (especially proof copper) from NGC to PCGS, they typically drop one grade (when they do cross at all).
Finally I have seen a number of NGC + Green CAC coins that wouldn't cross to PCGS at grade.
I would be curious to hear of (others) experiences with PCGS graded coins that NGC rejected (that is, coins going the other way) ...
and also would love to see some statistics of coins going both ways (if anyone has any).
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Your collection is what you have at the end of the day laid out on the table in front of you, not a collection of points on a server.
<< <i>This begs the question - if CAC is a valued opinion as to the coin being solid for the grade, why wouldn't a CAC'd NGC cross to PCGS at the same grade? It is a rhetorical question that has been previously asked and inadequately answered. >>
Because PCGS people CAN'T SEE the parts of the coin [as in the edges] that are hidden by the holder so they are somewhat reluctant to crack it out. That is why many will grade the same when resubmitted raw. Unfortunately as dealers and/or collectors we don't have the same luxury and must base our decisions 100% on the coin in the holder.
<< <i>This begs the question - if CAC is a valued opinion as to the coin being solid for the grade, why wouldn't a CAC'd NGC cross to PCGS at the same grade? It is a rhetorical question that has been previously asked and inadequately answered. >>
Yes, I asked the question yesterday in another thread and did not get an adequate answer there. I'm very glad others are thinking the same thing at least....
<< <i>Because PCGS people CAN'T SEE the parts of the coin [as in the edges] that are hidden by the holder so they are somewhat reluctant to crack it out. That is why many will grade the same when resubmitted raw. Unfortunately as dealers and/or collectors we don't have the same luxury and must base our decisions 100% on the coin in the holder. >>
So, generally speaking, a CAC'd coin at either service is the same. I've believed this all along so this reasoning makes sense (ie edge issue with the NGC holder) from PCGS's POV.
Since doing the registry holds little interest to me I don't spend money on regrades. Collectors should really spend more time satisfying what they want to collect than worrying about what others think of their collection, IMO.
jom
<< <i>This begs the question - if CAC is a valued opinion as to the coin being solid for the grade, why wouldn't a CAC'd NGC cross to PCGS at the same grade? It is a rhetorical question that has been previously asked and inadequately answered. >>
Because they don't, especially in toned 19th century choice/gem bust and seated coins. My own and others experiences in gem MS seated bear this out.
We all know the reasons. It's just the way it is and isn't going to change. If those same coins (NGC cac) are cracked out and sent in blind to PCGS, the ones that don't have
QT or similar issues will probably grade the same. There are a ton of legacy NGC coins from the 1998-2008 era that are lower end and will never cross. Don't kid yourself
that the NGC and PCGS grading from 5 yrs ago was really close. 2-3 tenths of a MS point is not close imo. Even then NGC coins brought 5-15% all the time vs. PCGS.
There wasn't enough product to go around during the bull market so even lower end coins had strong demand. That isn't the case today. I could care less about registry points.
My concern is only that comparable NGC coins fetch less money that PCGS....ALWAYS. This has been the case for 15-20 years now. It wasn't the case in 1986-1990. Yes, NGC
brought this upon themselves. It's just sad that even their good coins suffer.
If PCGS offered the option of conditionally crossing a coin based on a satisfactory viewing in the holder.....I'd agree to let them crack it and check for rim or edge issues that might
have gone undetected. If they don't like the coin out of the holder, then my bad and cross it at the grade they think appropriate. But first I'd like them to state based on what they
see in the holder, they'd probably cross it. Unfortunately, this option doesn't exist. And I don't know if it would actually make a difference.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>I always wondered if CAC wasn't motivated to sticker as many NGC coins as possible. PCGS is "the" brand. The community reaffirms this with their spending. Increasing the importance of NCG elevates the relevance of CAC, which benefits from the existence of a credible alternative to PCGS. Otherwise, CAC becomes understood as JA and his pals identifying which coins they like for the grade PCGS has assigned. That's not all bad. Rick Snow took that path years ago. >>
CAC has only been a big negative in the side of NGC from what I've seen. Most of the unc and proof type coins I see stickered are fine, regardless of holders. From my own
stickering of my collection back in 2008, a number of the NGC coins that I thought were solid for the grade failed to sticker. I was told they were decent coins and properly
graded, but in their opinion were C level coins or low end for the grade. I don't think any of the PCGS type coins I had reviewed by them failed to sticker. So I guess my logic would be
if I like a coin in a PCGS holder it probably has a better chance of stickering than an NGC coin I like. And since I've almost always purchased toned type coins, it has put me into an
area where anyone can question the color on the coin. In type coins PCGS has always accepted slightly fewer marks for the grade than NGC (my experiences only). PCGS is far
more critical of color that isn't 100% right to them. PCGS also seems a little more critical of strike weaknesses at the gem level. Roll those 3 up and I think it leads to PCGS coins being
more likely to sticker than NGC. I've seen nothing that suggests CAC is trying to force stickers on liner NGC coins. If anything, I think they are rejecting those. Their job is to buy and
sell coins they have stickered (ie make a market for them). The last thing they want to do is to be on the hook for liner coins down the road should the market weaken again. Since
CAC has been around the price differential between PCGS and NGC stickered coins has increased. That to me suggests there is no favoritism towards NGC. If I were in JA's shoes, I'd
be more critical of NGC coins knowing their market liquidity is not as strong. However, I would never say that in public.
Business is business. It pays to do it right. I buy coins...but realize that in a weak market that the holder/label are just as critical to success