eBay Returns Policy Unenforceable

Boosibri · May 3, 2013 6:11AM

Pretty shocking experience. Seller had a 14 day return policy and after seeing the coin in hand it was clearly over graded. I contacted them for a return after 2 days and they refused to honor their policy. eBay customer support ruled in favor of the seller in the case saying that since the coin was in fact graded as stated in the listing that the seller is not in breach and that they have no obligation to force the seller to honor the return policy.

Never expected that the return policies are nothing but words on the page. It will certainly prevent me from ever buying a high value coin on eBay ever again. Only saving grace is that the coin is very nice just not for the assigned grade.

SamByrd · May 3, 2013 6:27AM

was the coin in a legitimate TPG slab?. Were there decent images in the listing. Was the return policy stated in the listing?How about a link to the action and some images of the coin in hand. 2 sides to a auction.

Boosibri · May 3, 2013 6:30AM

Pictures were poor, return was stated as 14 days, in an NGC AU58 holder. Coin is nice but a 53-55.

Link to auction

Thread w/Pics

s4ny · May 3, 2013 6:31AM

Give him a neg.

Boosibri · May 3, 2013 6:32AM

<< Give him a neg. >>

That's the worst part, I can't. eBay ruled in his favor because the "Item was as described".

LindeDad · May 3, 2013 6:39AM

So you know how to grade better than three paid professionals your saying. Sorry but your the one at fault in this case if you buy a professionally graded coin and do not agree with the grade use the grade guarantee of the grading service. Neither eBay or the seller did anything wrong.

LanceNewmanOCC · May 3, 2013 6:40AM

.
that is astonishing the return policy was not enforceable. what is the point of having one?

without getting into the details, my motto, "never give a reason." 99% of the time when i mentioned anything about why i was returning an item, it went south quick. even when asked now, i will not give a reason come hell or high water. keep it simple.

usually not a fan of ebay rants, aside from the counterfeits, but this is pretty crazy and good to know for members that purchase high-dollar coins. if they want a return, it is possible further action may be required.

edited to add: those images were insufficient for one to make an informed decision and that is what i would have told ebay.
.

ColonelKlinck · May 3, 2013 6:41AM

<< So you know how to grade better than three paid professionals your saying. Sorry but your the one at fault in this case if you buy a professionally graded coin and do not agree with the grade use the grade guarantee of the grading service. Neither eBay or the seller did anything wrong. >>

I agree....Should be no return priv's on top tier third party graded coins.

mrpotatoheadd · May 3, 2013 6:44AM

<< Pictures were poor, return was stated as 14 days, in an NGC AU58 holder. Coin is nice but a 53-55. >>

If, after reviewing the coin in hand and determining that the correct grade was MS63, would you have contacted the seller in order to return the coin because it was not properly graded?

Boosibri · May 3, 2013 6:45AM

<< So you know how to grade better than three paid professionals your saying. Sorry but your the one at fault in this case if you buy a professionally graded coin and do not agree with the grade use the grade guarantee of the grading service. Neither eBay or the seller did anything wrong. >>

Seriously, so I should not be able to use a stated return policy because it was graded by NGC? Not following the logic.

Kove · May 3, 2013 6:47AM

<< So you know how to grade better than three paid professionals your saying. Sorry but your the one at fault in this case if you buy a professionally graded coin and do not agree with the grade use the grade guarantee of the grading service. Neither eBay or the seller did anything wrong. >>

I would disagree that the seller did nothing wrong, Syl. 14 day return, to me, means returns for any reason, as long as the coin is in the original holder and condition.

It gets a little tougher when it's won in an auction, as auctions aren't intended to be "on approval" formats like a Buy It Now.

I wouldn't rule out all higher-value coins on eBay. However, I would be more careful when pics are as crappy as this seller's, and I would be more careful in an auction format. Buy It Now with good pics should not be a problem.

It also teaches the lesson that to preserve the ability to leave a negative, you might want to think twice about getting eBay involved.

s4ny · May 3, 2013 6:48AM

I don't understand why you cannot give a neg. You were not satisfied. At least give
ratings of 1 where you can.

I don't understand why there is a return policy and then there is no return policy.
What is the point?

I would pursue this further up in the Ebay organization. It seems they are making policy
that violates their own policies.

STONE · May 3, 2013 6:50AM

Likewise, the opposite happened to me.

I was selling a coin, described properly, and without a return policy. Ebay forced the return upon me!

LanceNewmanOCC · May 3, 2013 6:50AM

<< 

<< So you know how to grade better than three paid professionals your saying. Sorry but your the one at fault in this case if you buy a professionally graded coin and do not agree with the grade use the grade guarantee of the grading service. Neither eBay or the seller did anything wrong. >>

Seriously, so I should not be able to use a stated return policy because it was graded by NGC? Not following the logic. >>

it is really dumb logic and should be ignored. all coins in TPG holders could not be any less equal and the images sucked. if the listing had no return option i would not be on your side but that is supposed to be the safety net for transactions that are less than optimal when a return option is stated. the return should have been granted from the crappy images alone. if the seller's aren't required to have accurate images and don't have to accept returns when they clearly state that they do, seriously, what is the point?

also it was nice of you to try an get the coin back as soon as possible. some people take the 14 days to heart and really drag the whole thing out. now a 14 day return policy, now that is something stupid all the way around for coins. toasters and tvs ok but not coins.
.

Justlooking · May 3, 2013 6:56AM

I don't think you should be able to return coins graded by a third party. That's just my opinion.

BUT, if there's a 14-day return policy, it should absolutely be honored. I'm not sure, but I don't think ebay's return policy says you have to have a legitimate reason for returning an item. Technically, you can return anything for any reason. I might be wrong on that one ...

Boosibri · May 3, 2013 6:59AM

<< So you know how to grade better than three paid professionals your saying. Sorry but your the one at fault in this case if you buy a professionally graded coin and do not agree with the grade use the grade guarantee of the grading service. Neither eBay or the seller did anything wrong. >>

Have you ever seen an over graded coin?

Davideo · May 3, 2013 7:10AM

<< Likewise, the opposite happened to me.

I was selling a coin, described properly, and without a return policy. Ebay forced the return upon me! >>

Yeah, I thought this was the policy, at least unofficially. IE, buyer can claim anything is not properly described and force the seller to accept a return.

TomB · May 3, 2013 7:11AM

The seller offered a 14-day return policy and you attempted to use the policy. If ebay will not stand by you then go directly to your credit card and I think you may win your case.

HalfStrike · May 3, 2013 7:23AM

panther · May 3, 2013 7:24AM

"So you know how to grade better than three paid professionals your saying. Sorry but your the one at fault in this case if you buy a professionally graded coin and do not agree with the grade use the grade guarantee of the grading service. Neither eBay or the seller did anything wrong."

AnkurJ · May 3, 2013 7:40AM

Do a paypal chargeback, or a chargeback with your credit card company. That will get eBay's attention.

coinhunters · May 3, 2013 7:40AM

Just more proof that EBAY is shoot themselves in the pocketbook. Move on and take your business elsewhere and let EBAY die a slow agonizing death!

Ahrensdad · May 3, 2013 7:43AM

In my opinion, a return policy means a return is accepted for any reason so long the coin is returned in its holder in the same condition sent, unless if stated otherwise. This return should be accepted. It's doesn't matter if the OP thinks they can grade better than a TPG. He doesn't like the coin. He is within his rights to not like the coin at the stated grade. We've all seen coins in top tier TPG holders we don't like or don't like at the grade.

nibanny · May 3, 2013 7:44AM

<< In my opinion, a return policy means a return is accepted for any reason so long the coin is returned in its holder in the same condition sent, unless if stated otherwise. This return should be accepted. It's doesn't matter if the OP thinks they can grade better than a TPG. He doesn't like the coin. He is within his rights to not like the coin at the stated grade. We've all seen coins in top tier TPG holders we don't like or don't like at the grade. >>

SamByrd · May 3, 2013 7:45AM

one other aspect without knowing the other side of this , one can appeal the decision of ebay as well. Very often ebay will reconsider a case
and change the result. Customer service is often very helpful in these situations.

crypto79 · May 3, 2013 7:51AM

Looks like to me you wanted a PCGS quality 58 for an NGC price. While the seller should honor their policy you got what you paid for. If you want a PCGS quality 58 you stand a much better chance getting one when you buy a pcgs holdered coin.

JamesMurray · May 3, 2013 8:02AM

<< Looks like to me you wanted a PCGS quality 58 for an NGC price. While the seller should honor their policy you got what you paid for. If you want a PCGS quality 58 you stand a much better chance getting one wen you buy a pcgs holdered coin. >>

TwoSides2aCoin · May 3, 2013 8:03AM

Absolutely shocking developments. (not really, but it looks good in type)

mrpotatoheadd · May 3, 2013 8:08AM

<< Pictures were poor... >>

Not poor enough to keep you from making three bids even though nobody else was bidding, apparently.

<< Coin is nice but a 53-55. >>

But you already knew that, right? From the thread you linked to, where you said: "It's in an N58 holder, which in hand is supported by the luster but not the detail. I see it as a P53/55."

So- you got a coin that was exactly as you expected, did you not?

And yes, sellers should honor their return policies. Plenty of fail to go around here.

rhedden · May 3, 2013 8:19AM

Buying from a sideways, poorly lighted, scanner-type image off eBay, eh? And it's a NGC holder, too? You've got to know it's not going to be a PQ AU58+++ CAC gold sticker beauty. Yes, it's appalling that the return policy was not honored, and thanks for telling us so we know to be more careful (!!), but I just don't know why you bought it in the first place. You know where to get PQ coins with great photos- off the websites of top-shelf, reputable dealers.

FWIW, it looks like a pretty nice coin that might be above average for a NGC AU58. Maybe you should keep it and enjoy it.

messydesk · May 3, 2013 8:21AM

Why the hell do people bid on stuff when the pictures are absolute crap, especially when that kind of money is involved? On those rare occasions that I sell coins on eBay, I make sure the pictures are decent. The stupid thing is that in doing so, I give an accurate picture of the coin and it undoubtedly costs me bidders who will pay extra for a coin with a crappy picture on speculation that it might be a gem. Sometimes eBay is a profoundly stupid place.

Boosibri · May 3, 2013 8:24AM

<< 

<< Pictures were poor... >>

Not poor enough to keep you from making three bids even though nobody else was bidding, apparently.

<< Coin is nice but a 53-55. >>

But you already knew that, right? From the thread you linked to, where you said: "It's in an N58 holder, which in hand is supported by the luster but not the detail. I see it as a P53/55."

So- you got a coin that was exactly as you expected, did you not?

And yes, sellers should honor their return policies. Plenty of fail to go around here. >>

I posted the thread after I got the coin from the seller. I hoped for a full 58 not a 53/55. Point is that a buyer has no protection from a seller refusing to accept returns under a posted return policy.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 3, 2013 8:48AM

<< 

<< 

<< Pictures were poor... >>

Not poor enough to keep you from making three bids even though nobody else was bidding, apparently.

<< Coin is nice but a 53-55. >>

But you already knew that, right? From the thread you linked to, where you said: "It's in an N58 holder, which in hand is supported by the luster but not the detail. I see it as a P53/55."

So- you got a coin that was exactly as you expected, did you not?

And yes, sellers should honor their return policies. Plenty of fail to go around here. >>

I posted the thread after I got the coin from the seller. I hoped for a full 58 not a 53/55. Point is that a buyer has no protection from a seller refusing to accept returns under a posted return policy. >>

Actually, the buyer has protection, but not a guarantee he can get what he hopes for by judging the grade. Here is where CAC might have helped tremendously....and you would have had to pay for it. In essence, we are still responsible for our own action. It's clear you paid some tuition for it to make the forum.

mrpotatoheadd · May 3, 2013 9:00AM

<< I posted the thread after I got the coin from the seller. >>

You're right. I misread the date on the thread- sorry.

<< I hoped for a full 58 not a 53/55. >>

According to NGC, it is a 58. You could always take it up with them if you think it's overgraded, couldn't you?

Wabbit2313 · May 3, 2013 9:02AM

There is more to this story. Seller has to take it back.

And yes to the previous comment, they make you take back anything, even with no returns allowed. 14 day return..... come on.

So what is the real story I guess would be my question. Post what eBay said to you. Maybe that will shed some light.

BryceM · May 3, 2013 9:02AM

The condition of the coin is irrelevant.

The grade of the coin is irrelevant.

The fact that the coin is in a TPG holder is irrelevant.

The buyer's opinion of the coin is irrelevant.

The seller's opinion of the coin is irrelevant.

The auction has an unconditional 14 day return policy, no? Where is the ambiguity in this? Items can be returned for any reason or no reason at all.

Like 99% of disputes that get aired out here on the boards, the best option is to first, make sure you're right. Check your facts! Second, demand satisfaction, escalate the case to supervisors / superiors if needed, and most of all remain 100% polite and professional throughout the entire process. Irrational or unreasonable people often don't get the same quality of service as pushy, rude, or threatening ones. Not saying you are, or that you did, but it's a pretty common problem on this planet.

If nothing else works, go to the credit card company. They'll side with you if you remain calm and can present a rational argument.

You'll have more ammo with eBay and the CC people if you've already returned the item. Otherwise they'll just tell you to call back once he has received it. Make durn sure you get a signature from the receiving party.

LindeDad · May 3, 2013 9:04AM

<< 

<< 

<< Pictures were poor... >>

Not poor enough to keep you from making three bids even though nobody else was bidding, apparently.

<< Coin is nice but a 53-55. >>

But you already knew that, right? From the thread you linked to, where you said: "It's in an N58 holder, which in hand is supported by the luster but not the detail. I see it as a P53/55."

So- you got a coin that was exactly as you expected, did you not?

And yes, sellers should honor their return policies. Plenty of fail to go around here. >>

I posted the thread after I got the coin from the seller. I hoped for a full 58 not a 53/55. Point is that a buyer has no protection from a seller refusing to accept returns under a posted return policy. >>

Actually if you had not opened the "Item not as described" case and just told the seller you wanted to return things might of went different. Those cases basically call the seller a liar and nobody likes to be called that.

BTW I personally feel eBay has messed up the return part of dealing with coins but it's now their rules we are all playing by.

Boosibri · May 3, 2013 9:10AM

<< Actually if you had not opened the "Item not as described" case and just told the seller you wanted to return things might of went different. Those cases basically call the seller a liar and nobody likes to be called that.

BTW I personally feel eBay has messed up the return part of dealing with coins but it's now their rules we are all playing by. >>

I did notify the seller and he refused the return saying I waited to long 2-3 days).

My point in this thread was to inform others of a policy interpretation which I clearly made so as to help others. Seems like that's done.

kryptonitecomics · May 3, 2013 9:17AM

<< The condition of the coin is irrelevant.

The grade of the coin is irrelevant.

The fact that the coin is in a TPG holder is irrelevant.

The buyer's opinion of the coin is irrelevant.

The seller's opinion of the coin is irrelevant.

The auction has an unconditional 14 day return policy, no? Where is the ambiguity in this? Items can be returned for any reason or no reason at all.

Like 99% of disputes that get aired out here on the boards, the best option is to first, make sure you're right. Check your facts! Second, demand satisfaction, escalate the case to supervisors / superiors if needed, and most of all remain 100% polite and professional throughout the entire process. Irrational or unreasonable people often don't get the same quality of service as pushy, rude, or threatening ones. Not saying you are, or that you did, but it's a pretty common problem on this planet.

If nothing else works, go to the credit card company. They'll side with you if you remain calm and can present a rational argument.

You'll have more ammo with eBay and the CC people if you've already returned the item. Otherwise they'll just tell you to call back once he has received it. Make durn sure you get a signature from the receiving party. >>

This makes sense....as a seller on Ebay I hate returns as almost all the returns are of graded coins with stellar images but.....I have a 14-day return policy (pushed on me by Ebay) and I would never decline a return for any reason...it's simply bad business when you have a stated policy and don't live up to it.

For those getting stuck in the mud about the grade and holder...you are completely missing the point and I am sure if the shoe was on the other foot you would fight tooth an nail against a seller that wouldn't honor a stated return policy....for whatever reason you wanted to return it.

derryb · May 3, 2013 9:19AM

Your beef on the grade is with NGC, you received exactly what the seller was selling. You lost the case because the item was as described. You have a legitimate beef with the seller for not honoring a return policy and should have talked with ebay about that instead of filing a claim.

ebaybuyer · May 3, 2013 10:05AM

yeah, by opening a SNAD case you stuck your foot in your a** im peresently dealing with the same issue, a seated quarter graded by "a very familiar" TPG, the pics looked good, but the coin is obviously cleaned.. would i open a SNAD cse or politely ask the seller if i can return it >>> which would YOU prefer as a seller ?? its probably worth what i paid for it, but its not a nice original coin. and id hate to pass it onto someone that will only buy original PCGS graded coins as it shouldnt even be in the plastic

mrpotatoheadd · May 3, 2013 10:07AM

From the other thread:

<< The last PCGS 58 to sell went for $6K and ther have been basically no trades in many years on a quality 55 or 58 excluding the P58 mentioned. I'm feeling OK about the financial position around the coin at $3,500 into it as a P53/55 given the quality that I think is there. >>

From this thread:

<< I hoped for a full 58 not a 53/55. >>

I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that most people would like to get a $6k coin for $3.5k. And yes, the seller should honor his return policy.

CuKevin · May 3, 2013 10:18AM

<< The condition of the coin is irrelevant.

The grade of the coin is irrelevant.

The fact that the coin is in a TPG holder is irrelevant.

The buyer's opinion of the coin is irrelevant.

The seller's opinion of the coin is irrelevant.

The auction has an unconditional 14 day return policy, no? Where is the ambiguity in this? Items can be returned for any reason or no reason at all. >>

I completely agree. 14 day return means 14 day return regardless of reason, which I believe is eBay policy.

airplanenut · May 3, 2013 10:18AM

Now, not reading many of the other responses, this looks pretty open and shut. The seller offered and return policy, and then he didn't accept a return. Period. Even if you were the worst-intentioned buyer ("I'll only keep it if it's an MS66")--and in no way are you--you'd still have the right to return the coin for any reason. If your claim was for SNAD, I can see how eBay sided with the seller in that the coin is graded, but your beef isn't with the description so much as you should have an unconditional return ability. I would appeal the ruling, and perhaps either point out that as an AU58 it doesn't look uncirculated (as the seller says it does), or just call eBay and point out that the return wasn't allowed. I'd also consider filing a chargeback.

Of course, while it's beside the point, dropping this much money on a coin with those pictures was a terrible idea. While I want to blame you for that, the fact is your complaint would be valid however nice the pictures are. The seller said you could return it, and then said you can't. And a good seller should always honor the return policy. For instance, I got this email today:

"i would like to return this coin. It has been severely polished which is not stated within the description."

I gave the return instructions, but also pointed the buyer to the description, which says, "A flashy coin that has been polished."

I never limited returns to only being for reasonable things, so I'll still take it. It's the cost of doing business on eBay.

phnatacc · May 3, 2013 10:22AM

Seller is a scumbag and taking advantage of eBay perks through offering a return policy which he doesn't live up to. You don't HAVE to offer to take returns, he did, and he should have taken the coin back.

ebaybuyer · May 3, 2013 10:24AM

one of the biggest problems with ebay is they do not have provisions for friendly returns.. and opening a SNAD should be a LAST resort in a case where the coin is significantly NOT as described, not in a situation where you dont agree with the grade. in that case, you politely ask the seller for return instructions. once you put the seller on the hot seat, dont expect them to bend over backwards to do anything for you. its an awful expensive lesson, but next time, if the seller offers a return policy, use it much wore wisely. opening a SNAD case for an item that you dont agree with the grade of, has nothing to do with the description of the item, it has to do with you not agreeing with the grade. im surprised as ebay almost never sides with the seller, its sucks but you could have helped the whole process go in another direction

TwoSides2aCoin · May 3, 2013 10:26AM

You could whisper me the seller's name so I don't fall prey or victim. Maybe your approach was bad, but your intent doesn't matter. I have to take back very few items, but I always have to take back words, and we know this is impossible. All I can do is ask forgiveness if I led anyone astray. But seriously, PM me. "mums" the word.

Banemorth · May 3, 2013 10:28AM

<< You could whisper me the seller's name so I don't fall prey or victim. Maybe your approach was bad, but your intent doesn't matter. I have to take back very few items, but I always have to take back words, and we know this is impossible. All I can do is ask forgiveness if I led anyone astray. But seriously, PM me. "mums" the word. >>

Link to the original auction.

SUMORADA · May 3, 2013 10:30AM

So you know how to grade better than three paid professionals your saying. Sorry but your the one at fault in this case if you buy a professionally graded coin and do not agree with the grade use the grade guarantee of the grading service. Neither eBay or the seller did anything wrong.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 3, 2013 10:31AM

I've heard of the dog whisperer and the horse whisperer. Now a WHITE ELEPHANT whisperer

So, in seriousness , despite the return policy , who thinks the price is too high for the coin ?

sniocsu · May 3, 2013 10:42AM

If there is a return policy stated; it should be honored

eBay Returns Policy Unenforceable

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