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When it's all said and done, the people know who the best ever is . . .
detroitfan2
Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
detroitfan2
Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭✭
detroitfan2
Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭✭
detroitfan2
Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭✭
detroitfan2
Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭✭
Comments
<< <i>. . . and it isn't Emmitt Smith.
Ask yourself would Emmitt Smith have traded careers with Barry Sanders if given the opportunity? Emmitt would give you an emphatic no.. Now ask yourself what Barry Sanders would say if he was asked if he could trade careers with Emmitt Smith? I think you know what he'd say. In fact, I don't think there is an RB that has played in the last 20 years that wouldn't trade their career with Emmitt.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
Joe
<< <i>Ask yourself would Emmitt Smith have traded careers with Barry Sanders if given the opportunity? Emmitt would give you an emphatic no.. Now ask yourself what Barry Sanders would say if he was asked if he could trade careers with Emmitt Smith? I think you know what he'd say. In fact, I don't think there is an RB that has played in the last 20 years that wouldn't trade their career with Emmitt. >>
Deciding the best ever should be based on what happened on the field, not how close they came to fulfilling all their dreams and desires. When Barry Sanders was on the field he turned the worst franchise in sports history into a playoff team. No other running back in history could have done that
Sanders runs for 2000 yards per year behind that Cowboys' line. Smith runs for 600 for the Lions.
<< <i>
<< <i>. . . and it isn't Emmitt Smith.
Ask yourself would Emmitt Smith have traded careers with Barry Sanders if given the opportunity? Emmitt would give you an emphatic no.. Now ask yourself what Barry Sanders would say if he was asked if he could trade careers with Emmitt Smith? I think you know what he'd say. In fact, I don't think there is an RB that has played in the last 20 years that wouldn't trade their career with Emmitt. >>
And then ask most people who was better and 99% of the people would give an emphatic Barry Sanders.
But yes we have had this debate way too many times although Im actually suprised Sanders got the nod for the cover though, personally I think Montana or Rice would have fit it better.
<< <i> Smith runs for 600 for the Lions. >>
I would go as high as 800.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ask yourself would Emmitt Smith have traded careers with Barry Sanders if given the opportunity? Emmitt would give you an emphatic no.. Now ask yourself what Barry Sanders would say if he was asked if he could trade careers with Emmitt Smith? I think you know what he'd say. In fact, I don't think there is an RB that has played in the last 20 years that wouldn't trade their career with Emmitt. >>
Deciding the best ever should be based on what happened on the field, not how close they came to fulfilling all their dreams and desires. When Barry Sanders was on the field he turned the worst franchise in sports history into a playoff team. No other running back in history could have done that >>
I believe Smith did that as well but he actually took his team multiple Super Bowls.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>I don't think Emmit "took" anyone to a Super Bowl besides his family. Troy, Michael, and the moose were did a bigger job of taking Dallas to the SB than the fancy dancer. >>
LOL, I imagine they racked some hotel bills as well but we saw what happened to the Cowboys when Smith sat out the first few games of the 1993 season.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I remember a game, forget which one, when Emmit took a fake handoff and leaped over the front line - totally bustin' up his shoulder It was hilarious, at least for a non Cowboy fan. Emmit was kick*ss though, but he was NEVER Barry. Here's to Adrian to show 'em both up.
Compliments to Emmitt fans for the record, but Barry owns the greatest in this vote.
Wish I was able to see the earlier players, Sayers, Brown, to be able to really compare history.
Erik
International soccer simply does not count, as a sport. It' just man luvin man there and prancing around a HUGE field.
<< <i>Boopits, you serious ? You 'strongly doubt' anyone here knows about football You sir are a dor** mesage board luv** d**fus.
International soccer simply does not count, as a sport. It' just man luvin man there and prancing around a HUGE field. >>
Ah- I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.
I do like Emmitt Smith's shaving cream ads, which I think needs to count for something.
<< <i>I will say that I think Barry Sanders was more fun to watch (though, as a long suffering Lions fan, I admit to a certain bias here). However, I'm not sure the equates with being a better back.
I do like Emmitt Smith's shaving cream ads, which I think needs to count for something. >>
One must not forget the Just for Men ads either. Emmitt...your beard is weird!
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>
<< <i>I will say that I think Barry Sanders was more fun to watch (though, as a long suffering Lions fan, I admit to a certain bias here). However, I'm not sure the equates with being a better back.
I do like Emmitt Smith's shaving cream ads, which I think needs to count for something. >>
One must not forget the Just for Men ads either. Emmitt...your beard is weird! >>
I'm thinking of the "keep your edge" ads. Was that Just for Men?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I will say that I think Barry Sanders was more fun to watch (though, as a long suffering Lions fan, I admit to a certain bias here). However, I'm not sure the equates with being a better back.
I do like Emmitt Smith's shaving cream ads, which I think needs to count for something. >>
One must not forget the Just for Men ads either. Emmitt...your beard is weird! >>
I'm thinking of the "keep your edge" ads. Was that Just for Men? >>
Got me?
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
2. Jim Brown
3. Marcus Dupree and Earl Campbell
Emmitt moved the chains with north-South running on crucial 3rd short.
Sanders usually rode the sidelines on third and short because of his inability
to move the chains looking to break the big run.
Only a fool would think Emmit wasn't the heart and soul of that Cowboy dynasty.
<< <i>Hopefully in a couple of years Adrian Peterson will end the debate.
Joe >>
i am guessing AP has the same number of rings that Barry has when its all said and done.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
2. Gale Sayers
3. Red Grange
4. Matt Suhey
5. DITKA
<< <i>I'll take Emmitt over the "all-time yards lost from scrimmage leader" Sanders
Emmitt moved the chains with north-South running on crucial 3rd short.
Sanders usually rode the sidelines on third and short because of his inability
to move the chains looking to break the big run.
Only a fool would think Emmit wasn't the heart and soul of that Cowboy dynasty. >>
New and interesting point that I agree with.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'll take Emmitt over the "all-time yards lost from scrimmage leader" Sanders
Emmitt moved the chains with north-South running on crucial 3rd short.
Sanders usually rode the sidelines on third and short because of his inability
to move the chains looking to break the big run.
Only a fool would think Emmit wasn't the heart and soul of that Cowboy dynasty. >>
New and interesting point that I agree with. >>
That's a poor point to agree with unless you know what the value is of a short run v. a long run. The relationship between yards and expected points is almost certainly not linear, so unless you know how many expected points a 60 yard run on 1st/2nd down is worth compared to a 4 yard run on third down this argument is neither here nor there. It's may be an interesting point to ponder, but it doesn't tip the scale in either direction.
GIVE IT A REST!!!!
<< <i>You Sanders fans/Cowboy haters are just too pathetic!
GIVE IT A REST!!!!
The most pathetic are the Emmitt fans/Cowboys haters who refuse to give any credit to the other 10 players who were on the field
Not sure I understand the "Emmitt fans/Cowboys haters" part of the above statement. But yes it takes the whole team to get things done. Emmitt Smith was a great running back and to take credit away from him because the Cowboys were the greatest team ever then.....would be like taking credit away from Jerry Rice because he had Steve Young throwing to him!
STUPID....STUPID...STUPID!!!
I don't know what the facination is with Barry Sanders. He was a average back at best. He was not a power back did not have break away speed as someone else eluded to. He had to run 30 yards to gain 5! Smith was a North and South runner. Remember that once he gets thru the line that everyone loved so much....from there on it was him getting it done by breaking tackles and running over people.
The Cowboys actually have had 2 runners better than Sanders. Tony Dorssett was also a better back!
I could name 10 maybe 20 better actually.
<< <i>Not sure I understand the "Emmitt fans/Cowboys haters" part of the above statement >>
The 1992-93 Cowboys were perhaps the best team ever in NFL history. A major reason for that was because of the great running back they had. But anyone who gives more credit to Smith for the success of that team than he was truly worth must be taking credit away from the others, including the best offensive line in NFL history
(And that is absolutely true for the 1994 49s. We don't take credit away from Rice because of who his quarter back was, we simply accept that if we are to give more credit to Rice than he was worth it would be taking credit away from Young and the others)
For Sanders, in the years before he arrived and the years since he left, the Lions have been the most pathetic franchise in all of sports. Yet for the decade he was on the team they regularly won nine or 10 games. The only reason they were able to overcome their futility in those years was because of the guy who averaged five yards every single time he carried the football
<< <i>The only reason they were able to overcome their futility in those years was because of the guy who averaged five yards every single time he carried the football >>
And just think what Barry could have done with an All-Pro line.
<< <i>And just think what Barry could have done with an All-Pro line. >>
He would have been the same player. Likewise, Smith was the same player when he was on an average team:
The Emmitt Smith Rant
<< <i>
<< <i>Hopefully in a couple of years Adrian Peterson will end the debate.
Joe >>
i am guessing AP has the same number of rings that Barry has when its all said and done. >>
You may be correct, we will see. However it has nothing to do with a "Best ever" individual in a team sport.
Let's make sure all future threads include this factor so that Packer fans can relate.
Joe
<< <i>
<< <i>Not sure I understand the "Emmitt fans/Cowboys haters" part of the above statement >>
The 1992-93 Cowboys were perhaps the best team ever in NFL history. A major reason for that was because of the great running back they had. But anyone who gives more credit to Smith for the success of that team than he was truly worth must be taking credit away from the others, including the best offensive line in NFL history
(And that is absolutely true for the 1994 49s. We don't take credit away from Rice because of who his quarter back was, we simply accept that if we are to give more credit to Rice than he was worth it would be taking credit away from Young and the others)
For Sanders, in the years before he arrived and the years since he left, the Lions have been the most pathetic franchise in all of sports. Yet for the decade he was on the team they regularly won nine or 10 games. The only reason they were able to overcome their futility in those years was because of the guy who averaged five yards every single time he carried the football >>
That offensive line was made up of cast offs and mid round draft picks, they didn't become "great" until Smith arrived in Dallas in 1990 (a team that was in a real slump for the second half of the 80's).
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>That offensive line was made up of cast offs and mid round draft picks, they didn't become "great" until Smith arrived in Dallas in 1990 (a team that was in a real slump for the second half of the 80's). >>
Two of the five weren't around until Smith arrived. The two that left combined for five Pro Bowls without Smith
I always love the strawmen people construct in this debate. 'What would Sanders have done with that line!?' He'd have exactly the same stats he has now, and suggesting that Emmitt wouldn't have been a stud in Detroit is impossible to prove.
But if you want to compare the two, why did Barry struggle so much in the postseason? He had one career touchdown. One. In 91 career attempts, and that touchdown occurred in the waning moments of a game Detroit already had well in hand. Emmitt, on the other hand, had 19 in 349 attempts, for a 1 TD per 18 attempt average. As far as teammates go, people continually forget that while Emmitt's line was better, Barry wasn't exactly the only star on his team. People forget because they didn't win, but Herman Moore (who forgot about him? I did!) averaged nearly 1200 yards a season in a seven year run, capped by a monstrous 1686 yard outburst in 1995. Throw in Sanders' benefit of playing in a dome at home and it gives more ammo to the Emmitt side.
It's easy to bag on Emmitt now; he's awful behind the camera, he lingered too long (something most athletes tend to do), and he did that dancing with the stars show (but, so did Jerry Rice). But let's not forget that Sanders QUIT on his team and his fans - he wasn't hurt, he wasn't being 'classy'. He was just two years into a new contract and had to be taken to court to return the prorated amount of his signing bonus.
Did Emmitt benefit from a better team? Sure, but Barry definitely wasn't playing with scrubs (two continual deep threat receivers absolutely helped stretch the field), and let's not forget that Barry also holds the record for negative runs: 336 runs for a total of -952 yards.
Both were amazing runners, but for one to dismiss the other without looking deeper into the facts is blissful ignorance.
<< <i> Barry wasn't exactly the only star on his team. People forget because they didn't win, but Herman Moore (who forgot about him? I did!) averaged nearly 1200 yards a season in a seven year run, capped by a monstrous 1686 yard outburst in 1995. Throw in Sanders' benefit of playing in a dome at home and it gives more ammo to the Emmitt side >>
Dragging out Herman Moore's name as a star is a pretty good point showing exactly how bad the Lions were. The team did have 50 players on their roster every year, and we still struggle this much to find any All Pro players Sanders played alongside. They had horrible QB, horrible coach, a completely horrible franchise in nearly every way.
One possibility is are that the stud QBs like Scott Mitchell and Erik Kramer and Rodney Peete and Andre Ware and Dave Krieg stretched the field to help the running game. The other possibility is that the running game helped open up the field for the passing game. The very fact that they went through eight starting QBs in 10 years is a pretty good hint about which is correct
The year they had the best offense in the league, are we seriously going to believe Scott Mitchell was somehow a major asset? (the year before that happened he was the worst QB in the league in nearly every measurable way; and the Lions still made the playoffs, partly because he missed half the year, mostly because of Sanders. When his contract was up, no team wanted him)
What Adrian Peterson was doing dragging the Vikings into the playoffs was what Sanders was doing throughout the 90s
You may say that after 10 years he quit on his teammates and his city. Others may say he was able to walk away from the sport with his joints and head still intact. Something that happens far too rarely for anyone in the league, but especially for running backs asked to carry the ball 300 times every single year
<< <i>
Dragging out Herman Moore's name as a star is a pretty good point showing exactly how bad the Lions were. The team did have 50 players on their roster every year, and we still struggle this much to find any All Pro players Sanders played alongside. They had horrible QB, horrible coach, a completely horrible franchise in nearly every way. >>
Dude was an absolute beast, and if he played today, with fantasy football so prevalent, people would LOVE him. 100+ catches, 1200+ yards, national TV? He'd be a superstar. Not his fault he played when he did.
<< <i>One possibility is are that the stud QBs like Scott Mitchell and Erik Kramer and Rodney Peete and Andre Ware and Dave Krieg stretched the field to help the running game. The other possibility is that the running game helped open up the field for the passing game. The very fact that they went through eight starting QBs in 10 years is a pretty good hint about which is correct. >>
Another possibility? They went hand in hand.
<< <i>The year they had the best offense in the league, are we seriously going to believe Scott Mitchell was somehow a major asset? (the year before that happened he was the worst QB in the league in nearly every measurable way; and the Lions still made the playoffs, partly because he missed half the year, mostly because of Sanders. When his contract was up, no team wanted him)
What Adrian Peterson was doing dragging the Vikings into the playoffs was what Sanders was doing throughout the 90s >>
And once he got there, he CHOKED, time and again. If you're going to give him props for 'dragging' his team to the playoffs, you must also hold him accountable for being ABYSMAL in the playoffs.
<< <i>You may say that after 10 years he quit on his teammates and his city. Others may say he was able to walk away from the sport with his joints and head still intact. Something that happens far too rarely for anyone in the league, but especially for running backs asked to carry the ball 300 times every single year >>
I am not alone in saying he quit. If it truly was about walking about with his joints and head intact, why was he demanding a trade just two years prior? Why was he forced by a court to return the signing bonus?
He QUIT on the team and fans that adored him.
Barry Sanders: Choker, Quitter, benefits so much from his teammates and environment
Is that really how you look at the 1990s Lions?
<< <i>I am not alone in saying he quit. >>
You are in a very small minority (when he did retire he was second in NFL history in carries). And you most certainly are alone in believing he wasn't truly great but he benefited from having great teammates
<< <i>Herman Moore: Monstrous, Beast, Star (and completely forgettable)
Barry Sanders: Choker, Quitter, benefits so much from his teammates and environment
Is that really how you look at the 1990s Lions?
<< <i>I am not alone in saying he quit. >>
You are in a very small minority (when he did retire he was second in NFL history in carries). And you most certainly are alone in believing he wasn't truly great but he benefited from having great teammates >>
Moore was forgettable because (a) of all the attention paid to Sanders (and rightfully so), and (b) the NFL wasn't the highlight driven league it is now. If you think for a second a guy who put up 123 catches and nearly 1700 yards wouldn't be a star, then I guess you've never heard of Wes Welker? Look at the pedestal we put that guy on - that's the kind of player Moore was.
Try as you might, I never said Sanders was *just* a choker and quitter - I simply said one must look at his ENTIRE body of work, and not cherry pick the good bits. If one is going to bash Emmitt for hanging on too long, for playing past when he should have been, the opposite criticism must also be leveled at Sanders for quitting on his team and city and fans.
This, however, is a losing battle. People who claim to want debate aren't interested in it - they simply want people to agree with them, and no amount of talking will ever open their eyes to an opposing viewpoint.
For the record, I'd have rather had Payton over either of them.
<< <i>This, however, is a losing battle. People who claim to want debate aren't interested in it - they simply want people to agree with them, and no amount of talking will ever open their eyes to an opposing viewpoint. >>
Maybe not. For most of us, we know we can't change the opinion of the other side and it's not something we care about. We talk (type) just to be able to hear ourselves.
I wouldn't have compared Moore to Welker mainly because of the height difference (Larry Fitzgerald maybe?), but their best seasons do seem to be of equal value. The other major difference is that Moore fell from the star level so quickly. Four straight Pro-Bowls, then washed up before he even turned 30 (interestingly his fall happened as soon as Sanders retired). We'll see if Welker can continue to be among the best into his mid-30s without his star teammate
<< <i>
<< <i>That offensive line was made up of cast offs and mid round draft picks, they didn't become "great" until Smith arrived in Dallas in 1990 (a team that was in a real slump for the second half of the 80's). >>
Two of the five weren't around until Smith arrived. The two that left combined for five Pro Bowls without Smith >>
Tuinei 7 year veteran
Newton 4 year veteran
Stepnoski 1 year veteran (only managed to start 4 games as a rookie)
Gesek 3 year veteran
Gogan 3 year veteran
My point was that they were all experienced players and they were essentially middle of the road offensive lineman (at best) before Smith arrived in Dallas.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>My point was that they were all experienced players and they were essentially middle of the road offensive lineman (at best) before Smith arrived in Dallas. >>
When talking about the great Dallas o-lines of the 90s, that point is not accurate. Erik Williams was there for all their Super Bowls. Including Larry Allen, than means 50% of those Pro Bowl lineman from the early 90s combined for four starts before Smith arrived
<< <i>
<< <i>My point was that they were all experienced players and they were essentially middle of the road offensive lineman (at best) before Smith arrived in Dallas. >>
When talking about the great Dallas o-lines of the 90s, that point is not accurate. Erik Williams was there for all their Super Bowls. Including Larry Allen, than means 50% of those Pro Bowl lineman from the early 90s combined for four starts before Smith arrived >>
Erik Williams didn't become a starter until 1992, after Smith had already established himself by winning ROY in 1990 and leading the league in rushing in 1991. Allen wasn't drafted until 1994 (he started 10 games at RT as a rookie), after Smith had led the league in rushing multiple times, won 2 Super Bowls, was named league & Super Bowl MVP, and was an All Pro.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>Erik Williams didn't become a starter until 1992 >>
Which was also when Dallas went from good to the the best in history.
You were right to say the line didn't become great until after Smith arrived. But that was because they were great lineman. Like every other player who played on those teams, he would have had the same abilities and limitations whether he played for the Cowboys or the Chiefs, whether Emmitt Smith was the running back or if it was Tyrone Wheatley
Williams was one of the few lineman that only played alongside Smith. Allen was in the Pro Bowl every year when the Cowboys had Smith and then every year after Smith left. Stepnoski made the Pro Bowl when he played with Smith and after he left. Donaldson made the Pro Bowl when he played with Smith and for years before he got to Dallas. Gogan only made the Pro Bowl after he left the Cowboys
Again, you are completely correct to say the Cowboys line wasn't great until after Smith had been there for a couple years. But that is completely meaningless. Just as it is not the line that made Smith a great running back, it wasn't Smith that made them all Pro Bowl lineman