<< <i>Erik Williams didn't become a starter until 1992 >>
Which was also when Dallas went from good to the the best in history.
You were right to say the line didn't become great until after Smith arrived. But that was because they were great lineman. Like every other player who played on those teams, he would have had the same abilities and limitations whether he played for the Cowboys or the Chiefs, whether Emmitt Smith was the running back or if it was Tyrone Wheatley
Williams was one of the few lineman that only played alongside Smith. Allen was in the Pro Bowl every year when the Cowboys had Smith and then every year after Smith left. Stepnoski made the Pro Bowl when he played with Smith and after he left. Donaldson made the Pro Bowl when he played with Smith and for years before he got to Dallas. Gogan only made the Pro Bowl after he left the Cowboys
Again, you are completely correct to say the Cowboys line wasn't great until after Smith had been there for a couple years. But that is completely meaningless. Just as it is not the line that made Smith a great running back, it wasn't Smith that made them all Pro Bowl lineman >>
I think the argument can be made that Smith's success brought attention to the Cowboys OL and that's why many of them made the Pro Bowl for the 1st time in their careers.
The team made the jump in 1992 but Smith lead the way by establishing himself as one of the best backs in the game in 1991 when he lead the league in rushing. Overall the OL was a good unit but Smith was the real difference maker for that group.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>That offensive line was made up of cast offs and mid round draft picks, they didn't become "great" until Smith arrived in Dallas in 1990 (a team that was in a real slump for the second half of the 80's). >>
Two of the five weren't around until Smith arrived. The two that left combined for five Pro Bowls without Smith >>
Tuinei 7 year veteran Newton 4 year veteran Stepnoski 1 year veteran (only managed to start 4 games as a rookie) Gesek 3 year veteran Gogan 3 year veteran
My point was that they were all experienced players and they were essentially middle of the road offensive lineman (at best) before Smith arrived in Dallas. >>
I am not objective as Barry is my favorite all-time NFL player and I am from Detroit. He was truly a "one-of-a-kind" running back. Yes, he quit on his team. I quit on the Lions 6 years ago after 30 years of being a fan and it was the most liberating decision around sports I have made. I don't fault Barry for quitting on that idiot franchise a bit. dfr you make a very interesting point regarding the great Dallas line, but you know that the entire team was on horse steroids during their championship years? The steroids were not on the banned list at the time and it gave them a clear advantage physically against the rest of the NFL. I don't care enough about football anymore to get indignant...
<< <i> I am not objective as Barry is my favorite all-time NFL player and I am from Detroit. He was truly a "one-of-a-kind" running back. Yes, he quit on his team. I quit on the Lions 6 years ago after 30 years of being a fan and it was the most liberating decision around sports I have made. I don't fault Barry for quitting on that idiot franchise a bit. dfr you make a very interesting point regarding the great Dallas line, but you know that the entire team was on horse steroids during their championship years? The steroids were not on the banned list at the time and it gave them a clear advantage physically against the rest of the NFL. I don't care enough about football anymore to get indignant... >>
While you are free and clear to quit being a fan of the team, Barry was under contract and making millions and millions of dollars as an employee of that team. If he was really that upset, he wouldn't have signed a multi-year contract then quit two years later.
The Cowboys weren't (and still aren't) alone in pushing the limits of what substances can be used and gotten away with.
Grew up 5 minutes from the Silverdome, been a Lions fan all my life. So let's clear up a few things:
1) Herman Moore *WAS* a star. That's not even debatable. Leading the league in catches twice, topping 100 catches three straight seasons, yeah, that means you're a star. 4-time Pro Bowler and 3-time first team All-Pro. C'mon.
2) Barry quit on his team. Make no mistake about it, he tried to screw the Lions, and there was a LOT of resentment toward him at the time. That has subsided but it definitely was there at the time. Remember, he didn't just retire. He quit right before training camp so that the Lions: A) Had already missed the chance to draft a replacement and; had already missed the free agent signing period. No question about it, that was intentional, and the Lions were absolutely right to go after him for his signing bonus.
3) The Lions QB situation was a disaster for much of Barry's time in Detroit. However, for one magical year, Scott Mitchell absolutely WAS a stud. 4300 yds, 32 TDs, 12 INTs. Those are ridiculous numbers for the time period. Yeah, he went south right after that after the disaster against the Eagles and getting hurt* but in 1995, he was a legit stud QB.
* - Let us also not forget that Mitchell got hurt because Lomas Brown intentionally let it happen. If that doesn't tell you how messed up the Lions organization is, nothing will.
<< <i>Why people remember Barry so fondly is that he was the first real 'highlight reel' running back. His flashy runs would be run on NFL recaps over and over. Emmitt was much more workman like, more north and south.
I always love the strawmen people construct in this debate. 'What would Sanders have done with that line!?' He'd have exactly the same stats he has now, and suggesting that Emmitt wouldn't have been a stud in Detroit is impossible to prove.
But if you want to compare the two, why did Barry struggle so much in the postseason? He had one career touchdown. One. In 91 career attempts, and that touchdown occurred in the waning moments of a game Detroit already had well in hand. Emmitt, on the other hand, had 19 in 349 attempts, for a 1 TD per 18 attempt average. As far as teammates go, people continually forget that while Emmitt's line was better, Barry wasn't exactly the only star on his team. People forget because they didn't win, but Herman Moore (who forgot about him? I did!) averaged nearly 1200 yards a season in a seven year run, capped by a monstrous 1686 yard outburst in 1995. Throw in Sanders' benefit of playing in a dome at home and it gives more ammo to the Emmitt side.
It's easy to bag on Emmitt now; he's awful behind the camera, he lingered too long (something most athletes tend to do), and he did that dancing with the stars show (but, so did Jerry Rice). But let's not forget that Sanders QUIT on his team and his fans - he wasn't hurt, he wasn't being 'classy'. He was just two years into a new contract and had to be taken to court to return the prorated amount of his signing bonus.
Did Emmitt benefit from a better team? Sure, but Barry definitely wasn't playing with scrubs (two continual deep threat receivers absolutely helped stretch the field), and let's not forget that Barry also holds the record for negative runs: 336 runs for a total of -952 yards.
Both were amazing runners, but for one to dismiss the other without looking deeper into the facts is blissful ignorance. >>
Great observations of both backs & their careers. One was a was a highlight reel waiting to happen while the other was a workman like grinder.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>Grew up 5 minutes from the Silverdome, been a Lions fan all my life. So let's clear up a few things:
1) Herman Moore *WAS* a star. That's not even debatable. Leading the league in catches twice, topping 100 catches three straight seasons, yeah, that means you're a star. 4-time Pro Bowler and 3-time first team All-Pro. C'mon. >>
This. Without a doubt. People want to make light of Moore because he played in an era when the NFL was still entering it's run as the most popular sport in America, but Moore was indeed at the top of his game, and he did indeed help open holes for Sanders. Sanders defenders want to say that Moore benefited from having Sanders, but it was definitely a mutual thing. Guys weren't loading up 8 in the box for Sanders, defenses HAD to account for the passing game.
As a long time Vikings fan I saw Barry twice a year and must admit he was probably the most exciting runner I have ever seen, I am not old enough to remember Sayers.
HOWEVER how anyone can really think he is the best RB of all time is beyond me. I also saw Walter Payton twice a year and he was the better running back.
Joe
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Erik Williams didn't become a starter until 1992 >>
Which was also when Dallas went from good to the the best in history.
You were right to say the line didn't become great until after Smith arrived. But that was because they were great lineman. Like every other player who played on those teams, he would have had the same abilities and limitations whether he played for the Cowboys or the Chiefs, whether Emmitt Smith was the running back or if it was Tyrone Wheatley
Williams was one of the few lineman that only played alongside Smith. Allen was in the Pro Bowl every year when the Cowboys had Smith and then every year after Smith left. Stepnoski made the Pro Bowl when he played with Smith and after he left. Donaldson made the Pro Bowl when he played with Smith and for years before he got to Dallas. Gogan only made the Pro Bowl after he left the Cowboys
Again, you are completely correct to say the Cowboys line wasn't great until after Smith had been there for a couple years. But that is completely meaningless. Just as it is not the line that made Smith a great running back, it wasn't Smith that made them all Pro Bowl lineman >>
I think the argument can be made that Smith's success brought attention to the Cowboys OL and that's why many of them made the Pro Bowl for the 1st time in their careers.
The team made the jump in 1992 but Smith lead the way by establishing himself as one of the best backs in the game in 1991 when he lead the league in rushing. Overall the OL was a good unit but Smith was the real difference maker for that group.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>That offensive line was made up of cast offs and mid round draft picks, they didn't become "great" until Smith arrived in Dallas in 1990 (a team that was in a real slump for the second half of the 80's). >>
Two of the five weren't around until Smith arrived. The two that left combined for five Pro Bowls without Smith >>
Tuinei 7 year veteran
Newton 4 year veteran
Stepnoski 1 year veteran (only managed to start 4 games as a rookie)
Gesek 3 year veteran
Gogan 3 year veteran
My point was that they were all experienced players and they were essentially middle of the road offensive lineman (at best) before Smith arrived in Dallas. >>
I am not objective as Barry is my favorite all-time NFL player and I am from Detroit. He was truly a "one-of-a-kind" running back. Yes, he quit on his team. I quit on the Lions 6 years ago after 30 years of being a fan and it was the most liberating decision around sports I have made. I don't fault Barry for quitting on that idiot franchise a bit.
dfr you make a very interesting point regarding the great Dallas line, but you know that the entire team was on horse steroids during their championship years? The steroids were not on the banned list at the time and it gave them a clear advantage physically against the rest of the NFL. I don't care enough about football anymore to get indignant...
<< <i>
I am not objective as Barry is my favorite all-time NFL player and I am from Detroit. He was truly a "one-of-a-kind" running back. Yes, he quit on his team. I quit on the Lions 6 years ago after 30 years of being a fan and it was the most liberating decision around sports I have made. I don't fault Barry for quitting on that idiot franchise a bit.
dfr you make a very interesting point regarding the great Dallas line, but you know that the entire team was on horse steroids during their championship years? The steroids were not on the banned list at the time and it gave them a clear advantage physically against the rest of the NFL. I don't care enough about football anymore to get indignant... >>
While you are free and clear to quit being a fan of the team, Barry was under contract and making millions and millions of dollars as an employee of that team. If he was really that upset, he wouldn't have signed a multi-year contract then quit two years later.
The Cowboys weren't (and still aren't) alone in pushing the limits of what substances can be used and gotten away with.
1) Herman Moore *WAS* a star. That's not even debatable. Leading the league in catches twice, topping 100 catches three straight seasons, yeah, that means you're a star. 4-time Pro Bowler and 3-time first team All-Pro. C'mon.
2) Barry quit on his team. Make no mistake about it, he tried to screw the Lions, and there was a LOT of resentment toward him at the time. That has subsided but it definitely was there at the time. Remember, he didn't just retire. He quit right before training camp so that the Lions: A) Had already missed the chance to draft a replacement and;
3) The Lions QB situation was a disaster for much of Barry's time in Detroit. However, for one magical year, Scott Mitchell absolutely WAS a stud. 4300 yds, 32 TDs, 12 INTs. Those are ridiculous numbers for the time period. Yeah, he went south right after that after the disaster against the Eagles and getting hurt* but in 1995, he was a legit stud QB.
* - Let us also not forget that Mitchell got hurt because Lomas Brown intentionally let it happen. If that doesn't tell you how messed up the Lions organization is, nothing will.
Peterson should have another 3 to 5 years of top-tier all-pro in him...
Erik
<< <i>Why people remember Barry so fondly is that he was the first real 'highlight reel' running back. His flashy runs would be run on NFL recaps over and over. Emmitt was much more workman like, more north and south.
I always love the strawmen people construct in this debate. 'What would Sanders have done with that line!?' He'd have exactly the same stats he has now, and suggesting that Emmitt wouldn't have been a stud in Detroit is impossible to prove.
But if you want to compare the two, why did Barry struggle so much in the postseason? He had one career touchdown. One. In 91 career attempts, and that touchdown occurred in the waning moments of a game Detroit already had well in hand. Emmitt, on the other hand, had 19 in 349 attempts, for a 1 TD per 18 attempt average. As far as teammates go, people continually forget that while Emmitt's line was better, Barry wasn't exactly the only star on his team. People forget because they didn't win, but Herman Moore (who forgot about him? I did!) averaged nearly 1200 yards a season in a seven year run, capped by a monstrous 1686 yard outburst in 1995. Throw in Sanders' benefit of playing in a dome at home and it gives more ammo to the Emmitt side.
It's easy to bag on Emmitt now; he's awful behind the camera, he lingered too long (something most athletes tend to do), and he did that dancing with the stars show (but, so did Jerry Rice). But let's not forget that Sanders QUIT on his team and his fans - he wasn't hurt, he wasn't being 'classy'. He was just two years into a new contract and had to be taken to court to return the prorated amount of his signing bonus.
Did Emmitt benefit from a better team? Sure, but Barry definitely wasn't playing with scrubs (two continual deep threat receivers absolutely helped stretch the field), and let's not forget that Barry also holds the record for negative runs: 336 runs for a total of -952 yards.
Both were amazing runners, but for one to dismiss the other without looking deeper into the facts is blissful ignorance. >>
Great observations of both backs & their careers. One was a was a highlight reel waiting to happen while the other was a workman like grinder.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>Grew up 5 minutes from the Silverdome, been a Lions fan all my life. So let's clear up a few things:
1) Herman Moore *WAS* a star. That's not even debatable. Leading the league in catches twice, topping 100 catches three straight seasons, yeah, that means you're a star. 4-time Pro Bowler and 3-time first team All-Pro. C'mon.
>>
This. Without a doubt. People want to make light of Moore because he played in an era when the NFL was still entering it's run as the most popular sport in America, but Moore was indeed at the top of his game, and he did indeed help open holes for Sanders. Sanders defenders want to say that Moore benefited from having Sanders, but it was definitely a mutual thing. Guys weren't loading up 8 in the box for Sanders, defenses HAD to account for the passing game.
HOWEVER how anyone can really think he is the best RB of all time is beyond me. I also saw Walter Payton twice a year and he was the better running back.
Joe