Slabbing early american copper
rays
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Is becomming increasingly difficult. I've been doing this awhile now, and I think I know something about tooling, environmental damage, cleaning, etc.
A decade ago one of out ten of my raw submissions were body bagged. Now its like 60%.
Today I got results on an 1800/1798 (S-191) in VF condition, a few circulation marks, no porosity or hairlines, comes back Genuine 98 damage.
My last submission a perfect VF 1798 rev of '95 (S-155) that was body bagged 3 times for tooling. I don't see it. I showed it to David Hall, he gave it to Mr. Wrubel, who called me to say he saw evidence of corrosion removal on the obverse. They must have a special microscope because even knowing where to look, I can't see it.
OK rant over.
A decade ago one of out ten of my raw submissions were body bagged. Now its like 60%.
Today I got results on an 1800/1798 (S-191) in VF condition, a few circulation marks, no porosity or hairlines, comes back Genuine 98 damage.
My last submission a perfect VF 1798 rev of '95 (S-155) that was body bagged 3 times for tooling. I don't see it. I showed it to David Hall, he gave it to Mr. Wrubel, who called me to say he saw evidence of corrosion removal on the obverse. They must have a special microscope because even knowing where to look, I can't see it.
OK rant over.
0
Comments
<< <i>I don't know what to tell you, except to keep trying on the pieces you really believe in. >>
That has worked on about 80% of the pieces originally body bagged. I give up on the S-155. The S-191 was a first attempt (and came with a guarantee-to-slab from a major EAC dealer).
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>EAC resists slabbing on principle. >>
Famous last words!
<< <i>the other part of the perspective is that buyers (OK, me) often reject slabbed early copper (specifically, Classic Head cents) because we are a bit picky about what we see and don't always agree with the TPGs as to grade or "problem-free" condition. I think most of the time, I feel early copper gets graded a touch higher than I would grade. Perhaps I've been hanging around EAC people and they're bad influences
Most of the time I don't care what grade PCGS assigns, as long as it is not Genuine.
A raw copper, deemed genuine by a major TPG, still has value even if it does not appeal to as wide a collector base. And a handful of dealers control the bulk of the market for early coppers. The ones I deal with do not have problems buying/selling raw coins.
Call me old-fashioned, but I am one of the dinosaurs who routinely cracks large cents out of slabs. I don't have much use for market grading applied to large cents because I don't see enough consistency during the years it's been around.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>I agree with Barndog, except for his last sentence. A decade ago, lots of early coppers were being graded (especially anything with a 17XX date) even if they had issues like burnished areas. Grading seems tighter now, as it should be. However, there are still lots early coppers (particularly early- and some middle-date large cents, as well as lots of 'red' coins) that were worked on at some point, managed to get past graders into slabs, and now sit in dealers' inventories.
A raw copper, deemed genuine by a major TPG, still has value even if it does not appeal to as wide a collector base. And a handful of dealers control the bulk of the market for early coppers. The ones I deal with do not have problems buying/selling raw coins.
Call me old-fashioned, but I am one of the dinosaurs who routinely cracks large cents out of slabs. I don't have much use for market grading applied to large cents because I don't see enough consistency during the years it's been around. >>
I crack every Classic Head cent out to store the coins in a special album
<< <i>
<< <i>the other part of the perspective is that buyers (OK, me) often reject slabbed early copper (specifically, Classic Head cents) because we are a bit picky about what we see and don't always agree with the TPGs as to grade or "problem-free" condition. I think most of the time, I feel early copper gets graded a touch higher than I would grade. Perhaps I've been hanging around EAC people and they're bad influences
Most of the time I don't care what grade PCGS assigns, as long as it is not Genuine. >>
since you pick them out and have meticulous taste, they really should just acquiesce!
I have a couple of slabbed VF30 coins with more detail and eye appeal than one or two of my slabbed 40 coins. These were all bought as EAC 20 coins.
So, if an EAC 20 coin is slabbed 25, 30 or 35 does it really matter? Seems like overgraded NGC early copper is discounted at auction (think of all the Rasmussen "AU" slabs). Undergraded coins sell for big premiums as well.
Depends on who's thinking about purchasing the coin.
The more knowledgeable the prospective buyer, the less reliant he is on the TPG grade.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I have a very choice '35 Head of '35 from Doug Bird that BB'd at both services for altered surfaced, which looks like original smooth chocolate to
me and others. I have a '39 Head of '40 from Reynolds, choice with traces of original red, that he graded XF45 (EAC obviously), NGC graded it MS61, and PCGS graded it AU53 - I feel it's a legit commercial AU58. So I'll buy slabbed copper, but likely won't submit anymore raw coins.
I did score on two Classic Head large cents this summer, which were in PCI 'problem' holders. An 1810/09 Fine corroded (VF detail, decent color with just a trace of micro porosity, seen much worse slabbed Ok at the majors), and an 1811, VG, scratched (Fine/VF detail, a little dark, old small scratch that saw plenty of circulation after it occurred), that the dealer graciously priced back of Greysheet VG pricing
<< <i>I don't care too much for numerical grades when I find a coin with the look that I prefer. I guess grading by price is the way I do it for my set. >>
I have a good friend that collects early copper and another that collects bust halves. They have both been collecting their series for a long time and for both of them, the price has become the 'grade'.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't care too much for numerical grades when I find a coin with the look that I prefer. I guess grading by price is the way I do it for my set. >>
I have a good friend that collects early copper and another that collects bust halves. They have both been collecting their series for a long time and for both of them, the price has become the 'grade'. >>
Every time I have asked Doug Bird what he grades a particular coin in his inventory, he responds with a price, not a grade.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't care too much for numerical grades when I find a coin with the look that I prefer. I guess grading by price is the way I do it for my set. >>
I have a good friend that collects early copper and another that collects bust halves. They have both been collecting their series for a long time and for both of them, the price has become the 'grade'. >>
Every time I have asked Doug Bird what he grades a particular coin in his inventory, he responds with a price, not a grade. >>
Ditto when I have talked to him at a show a few times.
He "grades" strongly
Also interesting, along the same vein, is how many EAC dealers will kibosh the plastic grade (say, PCGS), and call it something much lower (say, 10 points, as Doug says that is common), but the price is that of what the higher PCGS grade would be.
I did take a coin in PCGS plastic to Doug recently, to get his opinion, and he told me his 10pt difference (EAC is roughly 10 points back from PCGS grade).....what was interesting was that a year or two ago, I bought the coin raw from him and he priced it, and even said the grade, at which PCGS graded it.....now that it was in plastic, it was a bit lower....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Using PCGS pricing for an EAC net-graded coin is pointless. This is why people like Robinson and Noyes put out their own pricing guides at various times.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
To be honest, I have seen a fair share of corroded chain cents in slabs from both companies. I guess there is quite a bit of leniency when it comes to key dates.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>That is one reason I have stopped buying raw early copper. You never know what was done to the coin in the past that can not be seen with a simple loupe.
To be honest, I have seen a fair share of corroded chain cents in slabs from both companies. I guess there is quite a bit of leniency when it comes to key dates. >>
Chains are special.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't care too much for numerical grades when I find a coin with the look that I prefer. I guess grading by price is the way I do it for my set. >>
I have a good friend that collects early copper and another that collects bust halves. They have both been collecting their series for a long time and for both of them, the price has become the 'grade'. >>
Every time I have asked Doug Bird what he grades a particular coin in his inventory, he responds with a price, not a grade. >>
Yep, the numbers after the $ is what really matters.
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
WS
Even though my batting average has been lower with copper (about 80% lately), the ones that do grade sell as fast as I can make them.
merse
<< <i>
<< <i>That is one reason I have stopped buying raw early copper. You never know what was done to the coin in the past that can not be seen with a simple loupe.
To be honest, I have seen a fair share of corroded chain cents in slabs from both companies. I guess there is quite a bit of leniency when it comes to key dates. >>
Chains are special. >>
Truer words were never spoken. Grading a Chain cent is easy, as long as you have 40 years of experience
and have graded at least 200 Chain cents each year, often the same coins over and over and over....
<< <i> Every time I have asked Doug Bird what he grades a particular coin in his inventory, he responds with a price, not a grade. >>
Ditto when I have talked to him at a show a few times.
He "grades" strongly
Also interesting, along the same vein, is how many EAC dealers will kibosh the plastic grade (say, PCGS), and call it something much lower (say, 10 points, as Doug says that is common), but the price is that of what the higher PCGS grade would be.
...
Likewise Chris McCawley, at least for Sheldon, not Newcomb dates. Laughably, I know of quite a few Naftzger Newcomb-variety coins that were bagged
Not a good idea to buy early coppers from specialty dealers unless you have some understanding of EAC net grading, even if the coin is in a graded slab. Otherwise, you could easily end up paying for a choice coin, but getting something worth much less. OTOH, generalist dealers sometimes sell market graded coins, ones that EACers would deem 'choice', for bargains.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I knew it would happen.
grade this material.
<< <i>2x2 typewritten envelopes with cloth bags. Assign you OWN grade. >>
My original post pre-supposed that I wanted slabbed coins. This could be for any of a number of reasons:
1. Registry set
2. Ease of sale
3. Guarantee of grade and authenticity
Some of the scarcer early date varieties have become so valuable that I couldn't see buying them raw or without a slab guarantee:
S-1
S-48
S-264
Similarly, I would think it very risky to crack out a PCGS slabbed S-48 simply for the pleasure of writing my own grade on a 2 x 2. Cracked-out coins do not always go back in no-problem holders as easily as they are cracked out.
<< <i>
<< <i>2x2 typewritten envelopes with cloth bags. Assign you OWN grade. >>
My original post pre-supposed that I wanted slabbed coins. This could be for any of a number of reasons:
1. Registry set
2. Ease of sale
3. Guarantee of grade and authenticity
Some of the scarcer early date varieties have become so valuable that I couldn't see buying them raw or without a slab guarantee:
S-1
S-48
S-264
Similarly, I would think it very risky to crack out a PCGS slabbed S-48 simply for the pleasure of writing my own grade on a 2 x 2. Cracked-out coins do not always go back in no-problem holders as easily as they are cracked out. >>
I actually think that there is less risk cracking out copper than other coins. Since so many copper collectors prefer raw, there is always a strong market for rare copper even if it would fail to get back into a slab. Much harder to find a good home for certain silver and gold issues that would end up in problem holders. Well attended copper auctions of raw coins are available to a much greater extent as well.
merse
<< <i>[I actually think that there is less risk cracking out copper than other coins. Since so many copper collectors prefer raw, there is always a strong market for rare copper even if it would fail to get back into a slab. Much harder to find a good home for certain silver and gold issues that would end up in problem holders. Well attended copper auctions of raw coins are available to a much greater extent as well. >>
All of the major collections to come on the market in the last few years: Holmes, Naftzger, Husak... all slabbed prior to sale.
<< <i>I actually think that there is less risk cracking out copper than other coins. Since so many copper collectors prefer raw, there is always a strong market for rare copper even if it would fail to get back into a slab. Much harder to find a good home for certain silver and gold issues that would end up in problem holders. Well attended copper auctions of raw coins are available to a much greater extent as well. >>
Yes, there is still a large market base for raw copper, but you are still excluding some potential customers (the only drink Kool-Aid guys) if you crack it out and it doesn't recert.
1 27790549 1452 1800/1798 1C USA VF35BN
If it's worth doing once, it's worth doing again.
<< <i>It's a bit of an interesting question, how much does the grade assigned by the TPG on the slab influence the value of an early date cent?
I have a couple of slabbed VF30 coins with more detail and eye appeal than one or two of my slabbed 40 coins. These were all bought as EAC 20 coins.
So, if an EAC 20 coin is slabbed 25, 30 or 35 does it really matter? Seems like overgraded NGC early copper is discounted at auction (think of all the Rasmussen "AU" slabs). Undergraded coins sell for big premiums as well. >>
I ended up with a couple of the Rasmussen over graded copper coins (Draped Bust and Classice Head) in the after market to fill in my set. I just got tired of playing the game. Some of the more expensive pieces in slabs that I considered at the shows had problems, and yet they were graded and in some cases had asking prices that were double or more the money I paid for the Rasmussen pieces. Yet I could send in EAC condition census coins, and they would get body bags. When it comes to early copper, some pigs are more equal than other pigs, and it is frustrating.