Have there been any counterfeit CAC-stickered slabs yet?

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kiyote
kiyote Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I'm still looking for a good Trade Dollar and CAC seems like one more layer of protection...
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.

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  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,762 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>I'm still looking for a good Trade Dollar and CAC seems like one more layer of protection... >>



    I doubt anyone would bother to fake CAC stickers since one can easily go to the CAC web site and check the slab serial number to verify that CAC stickered the coin.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

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  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,762 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I'm still looking for a good Trade Dollar and CAC seems like one more layer of protection... >>



    I doubt anyone would bother to fake CAC stickers since one can easily go to the CAC web site and check the slab serial number to verify that CAC stickered the coin. >>



    What is the difference when someone punches in the pcgs or ngc cert, same thing except you might get lucky and see a photo. Unortuantely CAC doesn't take photos. So please explain why someone wouldn't copy a cac sticker to make more money and lend more assurance on a coin? >>



    Not sure I understand your question. The CAC web site has a look-up feature where you can input the slab serial number to verify that coin was indeed CAC stickered. Unless someone counterfeited the entire slab and label, it should be easy to verify that this specific slab was stickered by CAC.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • stealer
    stealer Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I'm still looking for a good Trade Dollar and CAC seems like one more layer of protection... >>



    I doubt anyone would bother to fake CAC stickers since one can easily go to the CAC web site and check the slab serial number to verify that CAC stickered the coin. >>



    What is the difference when someone punches in the pcgs or ngc cert, same thing except you might get lucky and see a photo. Unortuantely CAC doesn't take photos. So please explain why someone wouldn't copy a cac sticker to make more money and lend more assurance on a coin? >>



    Not sure I understand your question. The CAC web site has a look-up feature where you can input the slab serial number to verify that coin was indeed CAC stickered. Unless someone counterfeited the entire slab and label, it should be easy to verify that this specific slab was stickered by CAC. >>


    I do believe your latter situation is mission specific to the OP.
  • BustHalfBrian
    BustHalfBrian Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭✭
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    OP - Your question is whether "CAC-stickered slabs" have been counterfeited (implying that both the CAC sticker and the slab are counterfeit), not whether just the CAC stickers themselves have been counterfeited and applied to real slabs? Am I right so far?

    Whichever it is, both seem impractical. The CAC stickers do not command a premium that would make them worth counterfeiting.
  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Only a matter of time..... likely to happen to increase marketability of the counterfeit...Cheers, RickO
  • mgoodm3
    mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
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    Not difficult to fool the CAC lookup. Counterfeit an existing slab that is already stickered.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • Davideo
    Davideo Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭✭
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    I don't think the idea would be to increase the value of the counterfeit, but make it more likely to trick an unsuspecting buyer. And I think the assumption would be the crook would be counterfeiting the coin, slab and sticker such that everything matches. It's definitely more work, but if it is worth it to the counterfeiters, it will happen.
  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,762 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I think I misunderstood the question. I thought the OP was asking about counterfeit CAC stickers being put on slabs that were lacking the CAC sticker.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • stealer
    stealer Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>Whichever it is, both seem impractical. The CAC stickers do not command a premium that would make them worth counterfeiting. >>


    I think I'll have to disagree. With the advent of CAC stickers people are much more willing to buy simply because they see the green. A lot of new collectors might be told to look for the green if they want that extra "layer of protection" and they may not readily recognize counterfeit slabs. I can see this becoming a huge problem on eBay if the seller has blurry photos. Guilty as charged, I'd feel comfortable buying a CAC'd slab from blurry photos crossing my fingers for a score.
  • hof1998
    hof1998 Posts: 21 ✭
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    I go to 3+shows a month, 2 live auctions and sell on Ebay and I have to say CAC stickers bring quite a premium to a coin. To be clear I am not saying they SHOULD bring a premium, but they do. Just yesterday I was at a coin auction where a stickered Morgan that bid at $600 went for $740 (and then they paid 10% premium on top of that). This is just one example, but every CAC sticker I see at live auctions brings a nice hefty bump over GS bid. Also, to give perspective, all the hundreds of other slabbed coins went for below GS bid, which usually equaled GS bid after the 10% buyer's premium.

    Just what I have seen. Again, I'm not saying it's correct, but that is the reality of these stickers in the resale market.
  • BAJJERFAN
    BAJJERFAN Posts: 31,666 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>I think I misunderstood the question. I thought the OP was asking about counterfeit CAC stickers being put on slabs that were lacking the CAC sticker. >>



    Why do that when you can use the real thing?
    theknowitalltroll;
  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,762 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>

    << <i>I think I misunderstood the question. I thought the OP was asking about counterfeit CAC stickers being put on slabs that were lacking the CAC sticker. >>



    Why do that when you can use the real thing? >>



    Most coins won't qualify. Also, it costs money and time to get coins CAC stickered.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • kiyote
    kiyote Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>I think I misunderstood the question. I thought the OP was asking about counterfeit CAC stickers being put on slabs that were lacking the CAC sticker. >>



    And as the OP I'm not even sure what I was asking but that sounds close. image
    "I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
  • lkeigwin
    lkeigwin Posts: 16,895 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    While it is easy enough to check the cert# to see if CAC stickered the coin my guess is that few people actually do this unless there is some suspicion.
    Lance.
    Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
  • roadrunner
    roadrunner Posts: 28,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Most CAC coins will get a decent once over by a fairly decent grader before making their way to an end user. A counterfeiter better be putting decently graded coins into the holders
    unless they want to raise red flags around their operation. While people routinely expect to see lower end coins in top tier holders, you don't quite expect to see a pile of low end
    stickered coins with any one seller. I don't think this is worth the extra effort or risk to a counterfeiter. The less red flags they waive the better the odds they won't get caught.
    Maybe I'm wrong but I would think most people that are looking to buy CAC coins already can tell if they are nice for the grade.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • BAJJERFAN
    BAJJERFAN Posts: 31,666 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>Most CAC coins will get a decent once over by a fairly decent grader before making their way to an end user. A counterfeiter better be putting decently graded coins into the holders
    unless they want to raise red flags around their operation. While people routinely expect to see lower end coins in top tier holders, you don't quite expect to see a pile of low end
    stickered coins with any one seller. I don't think this is worth the extra effort or risk to a counterfeiter. The less red flags they waive the better the odds they won't get caught.
    Maybe I'm wrong but I would think most people that are looking to buy CAC coins already can tell if they are nice for the grade. >>



    Assuming the counterfeiter is smarter than the average bear, if one was counterfeiting a slab and a coin that is already in the CAC pop reports, why not just send it back to be restickered? No real need to try to fake a green bean with so many real ones out there. Of course just make sure the coin measures up.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • roadrunner
    roadrunner Posts: 28,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Assuming the counterfeiter is smarter than the average bear, if one was counterfeiting a slab and a coin that is already in the CAC pop reports, why not just send it back to be restickered? No real need to try to fake a green bean with so many real ones out there. Of course just make sure the coin measures up.

    Sending a counterfeit slab and different coin back to JA? That's inviting the kind of attention a counterfeiter doesn't need. JA has seen more slabs than 99% of the collectors and
    dealers out there. I would think if a counterfeiter is that good, and they are putting a solid coin worth all the money in a fake holder.....why even bother? Just became a TPG
    grader or crack out artist. All the skills are already in place.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • BAJJERFAN
    BAJJERFAN Posts: 31,666 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>Assuming the counterfeiter is smarter than the average bear, if one was counterfeiting a slab and a coin that is already in the CAC pop reports, why not just send it back to be restickered? No real need to try to fake a green bean with so many real ones out there. Of course just make sure the coin measures up.

    Sending a counterfeit slab and different coin back to JA? That's inviting the kind of attention a counterfeiter doesn't need. JA has seen more slabs than 99% of the collectors and
    dealers out there. I would think if a counterfeiter is that good, and they are putting a solid coin worth all the money in a fake holder.....why even bother? Just became a TPG
    grader or crack out artist. All the skills are already in place. >>



    As long as it is in the database does JA even look at reholders?
    theknowitalltroll;
  • roadrunner
    roadrunner Posts: 28,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i> As long as it is in the database does JA even look at reholders? >>



    Since we're talking about trying to slip a coin buy them, I would suspect that someone checks the quality of the coin and the holder to ensure things look legit.
    If they aren't doing it now....they soon will be.

    Again, I wouldn't send JA a counterfeited holder/insert just to try and slip a marginal coin by them. I'd be surprised if JA's regrade/reholder business is all that brisk.
    Even more reason those coins might get looked at fairly close.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • BAJJERFAN
    BAJJERFAN Posts: 31,666 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    << <i>

    << <i> As long as it is in the database does JA even look at reholders? >>



    Since we're talking about trying to slip a coin buy them, I would suspect that someone checks the quality of the coin and the holder to ensure things look legit.
    If they aren't doing it now....they soon will be.

    Again, I wouldn't send JA a counterfeited holder/insert just to try and slip a marginal coin by them. I'd be surprised if JA's regrade/reholder business is all that brisk.
    Even more reason those coins might get looked at fairly close. >>



    CAC only restickers. My error on the reholder.
    theknowitalltroll;

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