Pine Tree Shilling

AnkurJ · February 21, 2013 10:45AM

I find these coins very facinating. What can everyone here tell me about them? How many varities and types? I am drawn to one of the small plancet examples as they seem to have the most detail.
Who were they struck by, and how many were made? And I would love to hear some of the history behind them.

Thanks

Ankur

northcoin · February 21, 2013 10:50AM

<< I find these coins very facinating. What can everyone here tell me about them? How many varities and types? I am drawn to one of the small plancet examples as they seem to have the most detail.
Who were they struck by, and how many were made? And I would love to hear some of the history behind them.

Thanks

Ankur >>

Years ago I picked up one in an auction. It is apparent that the stamping was crude as my piece at least is not perfectly shaped and appears to have been hammered like you find ancient coins were made. The pine tree feature is pretty cool and makes them distinctive from many other colonials that are less imaginative in design.

bidask · February 21, 2013 10:55AM

Does this count?

RYK · February 21, 2013 10:59AM

Buy the book...

NewEnglandRarities · February 21, 2013 11:10AM

Pine Tree shillings were struck towards the end of the MA silver run. The mint master was John Hull, whose associate, Robert Sanderson working very closely with him. How many Pine Tree shillings were struck is unknown but it seems that the Pine Trees, especially the small planchet pieces were made over a fairly short period of time, in fairly large quantities. Many of the die varieties known come from the same family of dies with subtle changes made to the dies over time, either to repair the dies, or just to change their appearance.

Pine Trees go from Noe-1 to Noe-31 (Noe-31 is considered a contemporary counterfeit die variety) with about half of them large planchets and half of them small planchets. The standard weight for the coinage was 72 grains, but many are found cut down in diameter as they were used over time (and by people cheating others my clipping off small parts in order to eventually get enough metal to have another shilling for "free"), so most often they a found under their original striking weight.

There are some major types such as the backwards N varieties, the VV for a W varieties and the tree designs can be quite different to the naked eye. The earliest struck Pine Trees were made using a rocker press, like the Oak Tree and Willow Tree coinage before, but it is thought that some of the Small planchet pieces were struck on better equipment giving them a normally superior strike and less planchet waviness.

The coins were stuck up until sometime in the mid 1680s most likely and they were widely circulated throughout the northeastern United States. These are some of the most historical and important coinage that we have surviving today. Just to quote a great line from In Yankee Doodle's Pocket by Will Nipper, "they are the essence of New England and of early America. On a more personal level, they are tangible minders of the ingenuity and independence of the people who made them".

CoinRaritiesOnline · February 21, 2013 11:13AM

Ankur -

A ton has been written about Pine Trees (and Massachusetts Silver in general) through the years, but I'd boil it down to these 2 free sources to start:

1. Mass Silver history.

2. To see a lot of varieties all in one place.

AnkurJ · February 21, 2013 11:42AM

Excellent info, thank you! What does one look for when buying an example? Were many cleaned? Do they come white, dark, or toned?

RYK · February 21, 2013 11:49AM

<< Excellent info, thank you! What does one look for when buying an example? Were many cleaned? Do they come white, dark, or toned? >>

The last thing I look at is the grade on the label. Planchet quality, original color, and centering of design elements are of greater importance than in other areas that I collect.

RYK

NewEnglandRarities · February 21, 2013 11:50AM

<< Excellent info, thank you! What does one look for when buying an example? Were many cleaned? Do they come white, dark, or toned? >>

Many examples have been cleaned, repaired, heavily clipped, etc. When looking to buy one, I would suggest looking for an example that has a good weight 65-70 grains) with nice original color. I would also highly suggest looking for a certified example. Buying from/working with a reputable colonial dealer is always a good idea as well, as some pieces that are certified are not exactly choice for the grade.

A full strike is another thing to look for as many examples are found with large portions of the legends or design missing.

Most original example will be medium gray in color with some lighter and darker toning mixed in. I never really liked examples that I have seen that were white in color, and most I have seen that were white in color were not original IMHO.

Hope this helps.

CoinRaritiesOnline · February 21, 2013 11:51AM

<< Excellent info, thank you! What does one look for when buying an example? Were many cleaned? Do they come white, dark, or toned? >>

They come in every shade, and in every degree of originality (or lack thereof), damaged, clipped, bent, plugged, graffitied, etc.

My best advice is to view hundreds before buying anything, there is a lot to learn and more than I can type here.

Generally speaking, good centering, an even strike and a pleasing shape matters a lot here - more than the numerical grade in my experience.

mbogoman · February 21, 2013 12:07PM

<< Generally speaking, good centering, an even strike and a pleasing shape matters a lot here - more than the numerical grade in my experience. >>

I'll second that. With such a crude manufacturing process, finding an example with the above three qualities is most important. It is what I have looked for in assembling my little collection of MA silver...

Edit: And I really recommend the Salmon book. It's full of info and has great photos of all the types, denominations and varieties (Willow, Oak and Pine)

joebb21 · February 21, 2013 12:09PM

Mr CRO has 4 separate varieties on his website now.

MrEureka · February 21, 2013 12:12PM

My best advice is to view hundreds before buying anything, there is a lot to learn and more than I can type here.

Always better to know as much as possible, but not if it means delaying gratification for too long. The best compromise is to look at hundreds of images online tonight, and to buy a great coin tomorrow if you can find it. Of course, this might not be good advice for a newbie collector, but Ankur is no newbie.

jayPem · February 21, 2013 12:24PM

<< My best advice is to view hundreds before buying anything, there is a lot to learn and more than I can type here.

Always better to know as much as possible, but not if it means delaying gratification for too long. The best compromise is to look at hundreds of images online tonight, and to buy a great coin tomorrow if you can find it. Of course, this might not be good advice for a newbie collector, but Ankur is no newbie. >>

I've never seen this approach recomended here before...A+ for freshness !

AnkurJ · February 21, 2013 12:28PM

Looking in auction archives, it seems the small plancet examples had the most detail. Is that a correct assumption?

NewEnglandRarities · February 21, 2013 12:33PM

<< Looking in auction archives, it seems the small plancet examples had the most detail. Is that a correct assumption? >>

It is probably true that it is a bit easier to find a small planchet in better grade (VF30 or better) with a full strike than it is on a large planchet example.

The average collector who strives for one type example of MA silver tends to seek out a large planchet example just because it is a bigger coin. Thus the demand is slightly stronger and the availability is somewhat less on the large planchet type.

Both a large planchet and the small planchet can be found with an even, strong strike with original color, but the small planchet will probably require a shorter search than the large planchet

CoinRaritiesOnline · February 21, 2013 12:35PM

<< Looking in auction archives, it seems the small plancet examples had the most detail. Is that a correct assumption? >>

Small Planchet types tend to be better and more evenly struck, though many of the Large Planchet types have more intricate designs with more detail in the dies.

MrEureka · February 21, 2013 1:15PM

It is probably true that it is a bit easier to find a small planchet in better grade (VF30 or better) with a full strike than it is on a large planchet example.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that the relief is somewhat higher on the small planchets, which probably largely accounts for the impression that "they come better" than large planchet coins.

spy88 · February 21, 2013 1:35PM

I just love this site for the kind of history you can learn here.

So many knowledgeable people who not only know their coins (series, collection), but the history behind them.

Fascinating posts by NewEnglandRarities and links by CoinRaritiesOnline!!!

lava · February 21, 2013 1:35PM

I would have John at CRO, or Dave now at HLRC, pick you out a nice one. They are attractive.

MrEureka · February 21, 2013 1:37PM

would have John at CRO, or Dave now at HLRC, pick you out a nice one. They are attractive.

Especially John. He's a hunk.

DAVEatHLRC · February 22, 2013 12:26AM

<< would have John at CRO, or Dave now at HLRC, pick you out a nice one. They are attractive.

Especially John. He's a hunk. >>

Amen. He's one good lookin' dude!

MidLifeCrisis · February 22, 2013 12:37AM

<< 

<< would have John at CRO, or Dave now at HLRC, pick you out a nice one. They are attractive.

Especially John. He's a hunk. >>

Amen. He's one good lookin' dude! >>

Ha! Wow.

Billet7 · February 22, 2013 12:47AM

Now I want to see what John looks like.

I've seen some GREAT pine tree coins at CRO through the years. Seems like the average grade is VF30. Seems like most of the ones I see are hitting in at that range, perhaps that's just because a VF is their target grade, maybe not. Just an observation.

mgoodm3 · February 22, 2013 2:06AM

Got this one through CRO. I like them a lot.

BillJones · February 22, 2013 3:01AM

Check out my registry set:'

Pine Tree Coinage Set

BillJones · February 22, 2013 3:06AM

You can make a small run on the Oak Tree coins as well. The Oak Tree two pence is among the most common of all of the Massachusetts silver coinage. Here is one that is graded EF-45.

And here is an Oak Tree Shilling. You may not like this because of the centering, but you kind of have to go with the flow on these coins.

BillJones · February 22, 2013 3:32AM

<< My best advice is to view hundreds before buying anything, there is a lot to learn and more than I can type here. >>

Just my opinion, but if you have to look at hundreds of them before you buy anything, I don't think that you will be buying any in your lifetime. They are not a rare as the Maryland, Lord Baltimore coinage, but you would have to go to a lot a shows and inspect a lot of auction losts to see hundreds of them.

RYK · February 22, 2013 3:51AM

<< 

<< My best advice is to view hundreds before buying anything, there is a lot to learn and more than I can type here. >>

Just my opinion, but if you have to look at hundreds of them before you buy anything, I don't think that you will be buying any in your lifetime. They are not a rare as the Maryland, Lord Baltimore coinage, but you would have to go to a lot a shows and inspect a lot of auction losts to see hundreds of them. >>

I generally agree, but I would add that Mass silver is SO different from most things that US coin collectors that in order to best appreciate one, you really have to see a bunch in a wide range of price and condition. As an extreme example, you cannot apply Morgan dollar standards and collecting approach to Pine Tree Shillings.

Edit: I meant to say that you CANNOT apply Morgan dollar standards to the PTS.

BillJones · February 22, 2013 4:36AM

<< As an extreme example, you can apply Morgan dollar standards and collecting approach to Pine Tree Shillings. >>

If you do that you might buy a small planchet Pine Tree some day, but you will never buy any of the others. The rocker press strike caused virtually all of them to be struck bent, and most collectors would never buy a bent Morgan dollar, unless it was from a bullion junk box.

CoinRaritiesOnline · February 22, 2013 6:01AM

<< Just my opinion, but if you have to look at hundreds of them before you buy anything, I don't think that you will be buying any in your lifetime. They are not a rare as the Maryland, Lord Baltimore coinage, but you would have to go to a lot a shows and inspect a lot of auction losts to see hundreds of them. >>

A lifetime? Really? There were nearly 60 pieces of Mass silver in Stack's November auction alone, and another 40 in the Americana sale, another 9 in Heritage's FUN auction, etc., to say nothing of what is currently on dealer site's, in display cases on bourse floors, posted here for show and tell, etc.

In my opinion, someone interested in taking this plunge would be well served by seeing what's out there, at what price, which auction lots sold for strong prices, which ones went wanting, etc.

Of course, I did a lot of online research and made 4 trips to the appliance store before choosing a new dishwasher, so I may be a more careful buyer than some.

Justacommeman · February 22, 2013 6:16AM

From the CRO Vault of Christmas Past. I look at this everyday. An extremely (emphasis on extreme) uncommon look for these. I sit and wait.

by the way I think the Willow Tree is the pick of the litter for coolness. MJ

rays · February 22, 2013 7:00AM

<< From the CRO Vault of Christmas Past. I look at this everyday. An extremely (emphasis on extreme) uncommon look for these. I sit and wait.

by the way I think the Willow Tree is the pick of the litter for coolness. MJ

>>

That coin has spoiled me. I keep looking for it's twin.

rays · February 22, 2013 7:11AM

<< Now I want to see what John looks like.

I've seen some GREAT pine tree coins at CRO through the years. Seems like the average grade is VF30. Seems like most of the ones I see are hitting in at that range, perhaps that's just because a VF is their target grade, maybe not. Just an observation. >>

John's photo used to be on the PCGS website, I don't see it now.

Justacommeman · February 22, 2013 8:00AM

>>

That coin has spoiled me. I keep looking for it's twin. >>

I'm hoping for triplets as I want one also.

MJ

RYK · February 22, 2013 8:07AM

<< >>

That coin has spoiled me. I keep looking for it's twin. >>

I'm hoping for triplets as I want one also.

MJ >>

Where's the Octamom when you need her?

SmEagle1795 · February 22, 2013 8:07AM

<< 

<< Now I want to see what John looks like.

I've seen some GREAT pine tree coins at CRO through the years. Seems like the average grade is VF30. Seems like most of the ones I see are hitting in at that range, perhaps that's just because a VF is their target grade, maybe not. Just an observation. >>

John's photo used to be on the PCGS website, I don't see it now. >>

It's on the CoinFacts homepage.

ColonelJessup · February 22, 2013 9:24AM

<< would have John at CRO, or Dave now at HLRC, pick you out a nice one. They are attractive.

Especially John. He's a hunk. >>

A churning urn of burning funk

ColonelJessup · February 22, 2013 9:28AM

For a typical coin look at 2010 ANA Platinum Night. There's a lovely piece from Ford in Dwight Manley's set.

johnny9434 · February 23, 2013 2:45AM

boy there sure some nice mass. stuff out there

SmEagle1795 · February 23, 2013 3:36AM

Here's my Pine Tree Shilling: PCGS VF35 CAC from CRO. I personally prefer the large planchet over the small and love this variety, where they misspell "MASATUSETS" (missing the 'H') and all of the 'N's are printed backwards. This is an R5+ variety but many of the others are fairly available.

BillJones · February 23, 2013 7:52AM

Here is my small planchet Pine Tree Shilling, a Noe-16. I was hoping it would come back as an EF-40, but it came back in a VF-35 holder. Grading these coins is not that easy because they don't have microscopic detail in the design. In other words there is not "LIBERTY" in the head band.

CoinRaritiesOnline · February 23, 2013 7:58AM

<< That coin has spoiled me. I keep looking for it's twin. >>

I do not have its twin, though I did load its 2nd cousin into the Archive.

RYK · February 23, 2013 8:35AM

Here is my second PTS, a common Noe-29, a small planchet, which was actually the first one I acquired from CRO:

DrPete · February 27, 2013 6:55AM

Anyone know why Massachusetts is spelled the way it is on these coins?

BryceM · February 27, 2013 8:52AM

<< In other words there is not "LIBERTY" in the head band. >>

LOL!

Pine Tree Shilling

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