New Orleans Spring ANA Tax Announcement

NebuchadnezzarTheGreat · February 5, 2013 9:23PM

So, we just received the following message from the ANA regarding taxes at the New Orleans Show:

Jan. 31, 2013 The American Numismatic Association would like to inform dealers about a tax form required for participation at National Money ShowSM, May 9-11 in New Orleans. City of New Orleans The City of New Orleans requires that National Money Show participants (or anyone making sales in Orleans Parish) complete an occupational license tax form and pay a $50 fee. The form can be found at www.nationalmoneyshow.com/dealers-resources.aspx. The city has a 5-percent sales tax rate, which must be collected on all sales. State of Louisiana The State of Louisiana offers a tax exemption on collector coins, bullion coins and bullion, which applies per transaction to sales of $1,000 and more, according to the Industry Council for Tangible Assets (ICTA). The state has a 4-percent sales tax rate, among the lowest in the nation. While the ANA cannot provide legal, accounting or other advice on these issues, we would like to bring this to your attention so that you can complete the necessary form prior to the convention. Should you need assistance with any tax issues for the State of Louisiana or City of New Orleans, please contact your personal tax or legal advisor. You may also contact the State of Louisiana Department of Revenue at (225) 219-7469 or the City of New Orleans Bureau of Revenue at (504) 658-1600.

The ANA continues to trump the future and current show locations being affected by state taxes. Why was this not mentioned before this past week? Also, now that they've announced this, they will not allow table cancellations based on this new, last minute information and fees...

I'd appreciate a reply from an ANA Board Member regarding this and why this was not sent in a more timely manner. This is very costly and will inevitably kill any retail business to be had at the show...

STONE · February 5, 2013 9:33PM

Not much of a surprise that the ANA didn't send this until much later. It is unfortunate and should have been public for all dealers up front.

On the other hand, this probably won't kill the show. 5% tax is not very much especially since it only applies to sales under $1,000.
In addition, at least the tax rate is a nice # like 5%, rather than 6.25% or something like that.

I might attend since it isn't far from Dallas, and I like NO.

NebuchadnezzarTheGreat · February 5, 2013 9:36PM

<< Not much of a surprise that the ANA didn't send this until much later. It is unfortunate and should have been public for all dealers up front.

On the other hand, this probably won't kill the show. 5% tax is not very much especially since it only applies to sales under $1,000.
In addition, at least the tax rate is a nice # like 5%, rather than 6.25% or something like that.

I might attend since it isn't far from Dallas, and I like NO.

>>

You're exactly right,...however good luck on selling even a $1000 coin with a 5% tax rate...anything under $1000 will cost 9% in tax and anything over $1k will still have the 5% city tax...
I'm okay if they didn't know about it until now, but the cancellation fee just moved up to 50% (of an expensive table fee) plus $250 as it is under 90 days before the show...

2ltdjorn · February 5, 2013 9:37PM

I will be in NO

EagleEye · February 5, 2013 9:40PM

This is very costly and will inevitably kill any retail business to be had at the show...

This is a minor issue. They are smart to collect the $50 fee, since most coin sales will either be wholesale or over $1,000. Book sellers will be hurt the most.

NebuchadnezzarTheGreat · February 5, 2013 9:43PM

<< This is very costly and will inevitably kill any retail business to be had at the show...

This is a minor issue. >>

You are incorrect sir. When do collectors enjoy paying 5% tax? The $50 is obviously a non-event, but just another fee to add on.

Cameonut · February 5, 2013 9:48PM

So how will most dealers handle the 5% tax?

Add 5% to their quoted prices, or just eat it in their margin?

My guess is that prices will rise by 5%.

FWIW - here in NC, I have to pay 6.75% state sales tax on items I sell at shows. I bake it into the price I quote.

NebuchadnezzarTheGreat · February 5, 2013 10:14PM

<< So how will most dealers handle the 5% tax?

Add 5% to their quoted prices, or just eat it in their margin?

My guess is that prices will rise by 5%.

FWIW - here in NC, I have to pay 6.75% state sales tax on items I sell at shows. I bake it into the price I quote. >>

i think that most non-modern, non-crackout dealers have profit margins of around 10% or so, and based on that, the taxes have to be passed on to the buyer...

mingot · February 5, 2013 10:33PM

First the power outage and now this.

Good job, home town

djm · February 5, 2013 10:35PM

These shows should only be held in states with no sales tax. Like Nevada and New Hampshire.

mingot · February 5, 2013 10:53PM

<< These shows should only be held in states with no sales tax. Like Nevada and New Hampshire. >>

And georgia -- at least on coins and bullion.

NebuchadnezzarTheGreat · February 5, 2013 10:57PM

<< These shows should only be held in states with no sales tax. Like Nevada and New Hampshire. >>

Or we should at least know the tax structures before we sign up for tables!

robertpr · February 5, 2013 11:21PM

<< These shows should only be held in states with no sales tax. Like Nevada and New Hampshire. >>

Exactly. I don't understand why they would decide to hold the show in NO given this.

RYK · February 5, 2013 11:30PM

<< 

<< These shows should only be held in states with no sales tax. Like Nevada and New Hampshire. >>

Exactly. I don't understand why they would decide to hold the show in NO given this. >>

Perhaps they were not aware of these tax complications until they were committed.

I think this will put a damper on the show, especially at the level of the typical collector in the sub-$1000 category.

blu62vette · February 5, 2013 11:36PM

I cant make it to NO but if I was I would happily pay $50 for the permit. If customers know the 5% ahead of time no big deal. I am sure there will be plenty of cash transactions at the show. The show generates enough income for me $50 is not a big deal. Dealers who get up in arms over a small fee like this can find better things to worry about. Notification should have been better, but the fee itself is not a big deal.

USMoneylover · February 5, 2013 11:36PM

<< 

<< These shows should only be held in states with no sales tax. Like Nevada and New Hampshire. >>

And georgia -- at least on coins and bullion. >>

I'm pretty sure the table holders at the last Dalton,GA show had this happen as well. From what I heard, it did hurt retail business.

blu62vette · February 5, 2013 11:38PM

<< 

<< 

<< These shows should only be held in states with no sales tax. Like Nevada and New Hampshire. >>

Exactly. I don't understand why they would decide to hold the show in NO given this. >>

Perhaps they were not aware of these tax complications until they were committed.

I think this will put a damper on the show, especially at the level of the typical collector in the sub-$1000 category. >>

They may have been negotiating for a exemption.

GregL · February 5, 2013 11:55PM

<< The ANA continues to trump the future and current show locations being affected by state taxes. Why was this not mentioned before this past week? Also, now that they've announced this, they will not allow table cancellations based on this new, last minute information and fees...

I'd appreciate a reply from an ANA Board Member regarding this and why this was not sent in a more timely manner. This is very costly and will inevitably kill any retail business to be had at the show... >>

The issue of state sales taxes and their impact on ANA convention locations is something which has become increasingly important over the past year and a half since I've been on the ANA Board. Jeff Garrett and Gary Adkins have done a very good job of making the rest of the board aware of the impact of taxes on our member dealers. From my recollection, there were no concerns mentioned by any board member at the time the decision was made to hold the 2013 convention in New Orleans. Obviously, local taxes are an additional issue and I will make sure those are looked into prior to any future convention decisions.

According to information from ICTA, only 19 states have no state sales tax on coins and bullion -- obviously local sales taxes can still be charged in a state without a state sales tax. It would be ideal to always hold all conventions in one of these 19 states, but I don't think a convention in Alaska, Delaware, Iowa, Montana, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, South Dakota or Wyoming would really draw the attendance we would hope. (No offense to anyone from those states, but just trying to be practical.)

If we are to avoid states with ANY sales tax, that greatly limits our site selection (especially when conflicts with other shows like FUN and Whitman are taken into account). As a result, a number of conventions are held in states with sales taxes that have some exemptions -- like the $1000 or higher sale in Louisiana. (2010 in Boston was the most recent.)

My most serious concern with what has happened here is the late notice regarding the city sales tax. I will do my best to find out why this was not sent out earlier.

Greg

WTCG · February 6, 2013 12:10AM

Issues like this are an annoyance but they happen. In any other industry this would be a non issue but since we're in the one where you have people who won't pause to drop $20,000 in a flash on one coin then raise holy hell over a $2 admission fee it can create a significant psychological disadvantage for the retail element of the show.

It's a one time show. People will gripe and moan but I doubt no more than one or two dealers would cancel even if they could.

shorecoll · February 6, 2013 12:49AM

This is NO you are discussing, the land of open containers. The ANA should pay the dude that owns the place on Bourbon that has the 20 frozen beverage machines to move 10 of them to the convention center for the duration of the show and give free 48 ounce daiquiris with every admission...there will be no complaints about sales taxes, prices, or anything else. You could set up free Hurricane bars throughout the show, but that would be kind of obvious.

GeorgeKellogg · February 6, 2013 1:07AM

The tax exemption for coins priced at $1,000 and above should cut down on haggling for a coin with a $1,000 asking price

.

ianrussell · February 6, 2013 1:15AM

The great thing about this show is that it's in New Orleans...really looking forward to hanging out there.

- Ian

RYK · February 6, 2013 1:57AM

<< The tax exemption for coins priced at $1,000 and above should cut down on haggling for a coin with a $1,000 asking price

. >>

Well, that's certainly looking at the bright side!

RYK · February 6, 2013 1:57AM

<< The great thing about this show is that it's in New Orleans...really looking forward to hanging out there.

- Ian >>

Be careful!

WTCG · February 6, 2013 2:14AM

<< The great thing about this show is that it's in New Orleans...really looking forward to hanging out there.

- Ian >>

Very good. I'll bring my camera.

USMoneylover · February 6, 2013 2:18AM

<< 

<< The great thing about this show is that it's in New Orleans...really looking forward to hanging out there.

- Ian >>

Very good. I'll bring my camera. >>

That will be a show report I WON'T want to see

NebuchadnezzarTheGreat · February 6, 2013 2:20AM

But, the over $1,000 law may not apply in New Orleans? Does anyone know if you are still required to charge 5% on sales over $1000 for the local tax law?

Thanks for the response Greg!

NebuchadnezzarTheGreat · February 6, 2013 2:22AM

<< 

<< 

<< These shows should only be held in states with no sales tax. Like Nevada and New Hampshire. >>

And georgia -- at least on coins and bullion. >>

I'm pretty sure the table holders at the last Dalton,GA show had this happen as well. From what I heard, it did hurt retail business. >>

This actually happened at the Tennessee State Show outside of Chattanooga. It's been a law for many years, but they just now realized the affects it would have on the show.

ianrussell · February 6, 2013 2:25AM

<< 

<< The great thing about this show is that it's in New Orleans...really looking forward to hanging out there.

- Ian >>

Be careful! >>

Poor choice in words on my part. But in all seriousness, it should be a fun city to have a coin show in. I know people who are attending who typically don't attend the smaller ANA...just because it's New Orleans.

- Ian

Elcontador · February 6, 2013 3:06AM

Some states (I believe CA is one of them) allow dealers who are physically present in the state for less than X number of days not to be required to have a state sales tax permit and collect sales tax on coin sales below a certain amount (in CA, it is now $1,500).

What a number of out of state dealers do is to treat sales of coins in a state to which they travel as if they are made in their own state and shipped to said state. This way, there is no sales tax, because the coins were deemed to be shipped in interstate commerce and said dealer is not required to have a sales tax permit in the state where the show is located.

In this situation, if the coin sale is under the prescribed amount, the buyer is responsible for paying the use tax on this purchase on his State individual income tax return in the year the sale took place (which as a practical matter, very few people do).

DoubleEagle59 · February 6, 2013 3:09AM

Get used to it...

Higher costs with higher spending, coupled with less production = MORE TAXES!!

RichieURich · February 6, 2013 3:27AM

I've read the ANA's announcement and both the New Orleans city sales tax regulation and the Louisiana state sales tax regulation.

What I can't determine, despite all of that reading, is whether or not there is a resale exemption from sales taxes for dealer-to-dealer sales. Can anyone shed any light on this?

s4ny · February 6, 2013 4:16AM

<< 

<< The great thing about this show is that it's in New Orleans...really looking forward to hanging out there.

- Ian >>

Be careful! >>

Be careful for sure. You wander 3 blocks in the wrong direction from Bourbon St and you are in a place
more dangerous than any place in NY City.

NebuchadnezzarTheGreat · February 6, 2013 4:28AM

<< I've read the ANA's announcement and both the New Orleans city sales tax regulation and the Louisiana state sales tax regulation.

What I can't determine, despite all of that reading, is whether or not there is a resale exemption from sales taxes for dealer-to-dealer sales. Can anyone shed any light on this? >>

I asked this specifically to the ANA but haven't received a response yet. Seems that they are skirting the answer in the convention department which scares me.

GregL · February 6, 2013 5:02AM

FYI - I have just learned that City of New Orleans follows the Louisiana state tax exemption for numismatic sales over $1000.

There should be a clarification sent out regarding this shortly.

Greg

johnny9434 · February 6, 2013 5:08AM

if you live in connecticut, starting november 5th amazon will start charging tax on all items. just an update with whats going on here. for whats its worth

Elcontador · February 6, 2013 5:54AM

<< 
What I can't determine, despite all of that reading, is whether or not there is a resale exemption from sales taxes for dealer-to-dealer sales. Can anyone shed any light on this? >>

If you have a seller's permit in a particular state, resale sales are not subject to sales tax in most states. They are listed as resales on the sales tax forms which are completed. On audit, you'd better be able to supply the resale certificate numbers of those who bought your coins for resale, or you'll owe the tax on such sales, plus penalties.

That being said, Louisiana has many laws peculiar to that state, and I have no idea what Boudreaux is up to in this matter.

Unknown · February 6, 2013 6:46AM

This content has been removed.

PTVETTER · February 6, 2013 6:56AM

there is NO sales tax on coins or bullion in PA.

there is tax on supplies and currency however.

not too unhapppy about the supplies but currency is an other subject.

The best locations are Pittsburgh and Philidelphia.

I prefer Pittsburgh more reasonable rates for food and hotels.

Why can't the ANA see this?????

Along with approximately 75% of the ANA members are withing 8-10 hours driving time of Pittsburgh

TwoSides2aCoin · February 6, 2013 6:59AM

Wouldn't it be simplest to file the form for fifty bucks, assess four percent on each sale, submit a check to the Louisiana Department of Revenue and be done with it before ya got home ?

Taxes are not as complex as changing rules.

GregL · February 6, 2013 7:19AM

<< The best locations are Pittsburgh and Philidelphia.

I prefer Pittsburgh more reasonable rates for food and hotels.

Why can't the ANA see this????? >>

We have... The Fall 2011 convention was in Pittsburgh and the Summer 2012 convention was in Philadelphia.

I heard MANY good comments about Philadelphia, but some of the union issues at the convention center may make it more difficult to host a convention there.

I greatly enjoyed Pittsburgh and I think it will remain on our list of sites in future years.

Greg

19Lyds · February 6, 2013 7:24AM

<< This is very costly and will inevitably kill any retail business to be had at the show... >>

Why would it kill retail business at the show? I mean, it's not like the locals aren't already paying a 9% Sales Tax anyway. Even Louisiana folks who travel into New Orleans are already paying that tax rate. Exactly WHY should the Coin Show be any different?

Of course, if you're implying that a bulk of the business at an ANA Show is "out of state dealer to dealer business", I don't know that I'd classify that as "retail business".

Gosh, aren't we a spoiled bunch. (Both Collectors and Dealers) Too used to not paying interstate sales taxes for online purchases perhaps? Or perhaps too used to coins and bullion being considered "investment items" when everybody knows that coins and bullion are terrible investments.

golden · February 6, 2013 7:26AM

<< there is NO sales tax on coins or bullion in PA.

there is tax on supplies and currency however.

not too unhapppy about the supplies but currency is an other subject.

The best locations are Pittsburgh and Philidelphia.

I prefer Pittsburgh more reasonable rates for food and hotels.

Why can't the ANA see this?????

Along with approximately 75% of the ANA members are withing 8-10 hours driving time of Pittsburgh >>

The Philadelphia and the Pittsburgh ANA conventions were great.

amwldcoin · February 6, 2013 7:36AM

Here are my comments regarding Pittsburg! Perhaps it can be addressed as I don't have any desires to attend ANA shows in the future due to my complaint!

Union bullcrap of course...but the ANA thinks all the non PNG dealers can get in and get set up in 2 hours! I'm sorry...but after struggling to get set up with multiple interuptions and security risks(I finally was set up by 12 after the show opened) I will not place myself in that situation again. The folks at the ANA need to put theirselves in the position of the dealers attending! Would you take the risks you expect dealers to take??? I have done quite a few ANA shows. Ironically I said the same thing after the show in 2004!

What say you ANA?????

Edit to add! If the set up at New Orleans is anything like Pittsburg...I reall feel sorry for the dealers who attend. New Orleans does have a rep!

GregL · February 6, 2013 7:41AM

<< What say you ANA????? >>

Have you spoken with ANA Convention Director Rhonda Scurek? She is the right person to understand why the schedule is the way it is. She can be reached at scurek@money.org or (719) 482-9839.

The schedule for New Orleans has 6 hours of dealer setup: Wednesday 3-7pm and Thursday 8-10am.

Greg

shorecoll · February 6, 2013 7:41AM

NO is great and I can tell many stories, but won't because they are most definitely OT. You do need to be careful for many reasons. It is a PARTY town and they strictly encourage over the top everything...I believe the daiquiris and frozen margaritas sold on the street are 36 or 48 ounce and those are appetizers. The last convention I attended there, one of the attendees made one of those wrong turns and got killed (mugged and stabbed to death). This was pre-Katrina and I haven't been back since, so I don't know if it's better. The cops are out in force in the tourist areas but don't exist in other areas. I have never had any issue on Bourbon or around the casinos. Enough scary stories...the food alone makes it worth the risk.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 6, 2013 7:43AM

Egad, Ebay, EAC

Guess the date, the grade and how much it sales for on eBay.... and how much my 1099 from Pay Pal was and how much taxes are on sales of coins and bullion in Nebraska , plus who will win the NBA title , and win an ounce of silver. Taxes on the winnings are the responsibility of the winner.

amwldcoin · February 6, 2013 7:46AM

<< 

<< What say you ANA????? >>

Have you spoken with ANA Convention Director Rhonda Scurek? She is the right person to understand why the schedule is the way it is. She can be reached at scurek@money.org or (719) 482-9839.

The schedule for New Orleans has 6 hours of dealer setup: Wednesday 3-7pm and Thursday 8-10am.

Greg >>

What? No PNG Day???

New Orleans Spring ANA Tax Announcement

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