Why is this guy allowed to stay in business so long?
SAM5969
Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭
It's amazing the amount of roll scams there are on eBay, and I am a big believer in caveat emptor .. But I also believe there is an obligation to shut down an obvious scam with enough supporting evidence to confirm it.
This guy has been selling the same rolls - I am only checking a couple of specific areas but have seen the same rolls being sold for months. I am sick of seeing the same stock photo roll under the Barber Quarter/Half categories --- these rolls have been listed for months...The naive JQP buyer really thinks he has thousands of "Early clad quarter rolls" that so happen to have a Barber quarter on top .. and that the roll may be filled with goodies? .... And of course we all know 39 quarters are clad with the lone silver quarter on top. the rolls are selling for an astounding $80+ sometimes - For sure a fool and his money are soon parted BUT .. come on eBay - It's pretty damn obvious what is going on. This guy obtains hundreds of clad rolls from the corner bank and adds a silver coin to each and makers an 800% profit... Really? And this is allowed to go on for months....years...
This roll game is as old as eBay .. But when it's this obvious.. Is there really nothing to be done? Or is he not doing anything illegal? Just unethical? The fact he states them all as being "unsearched" is in itself a lie. Of course it is unsubstantiated but everyone knows the truth
Negatives
Rolls for sale
All items for sale
It's all junk - And he is making a fortune? Really ???
Who the hell is buying all this rubbish ... when does he "run out of" a gullible buyer base
This guy has been selling the same rolls - I am only checking a couple of specific areas but have seen the same rolls being sold for months. I am sick of seeing the same stock photo roll under the Barber Quarter/Half categories --- these rolls have been listed for months...The naive JQP buyer really thinks he has thousands of "Early clad quarter rolls" that so happen to have a Barber quarter on top .. and that the roll may be filled with goodies? .... And of course we all know 39 quarters are clad with the lone silver quarter on top. the rolls are selling for an astounding $80+ sometimes - For sure a fool and his money are soon parted BUT .. come on eBay - It's pretty damn obvious what is going on. This guy obtains hundreds of clad rolls from the corner bank and adds a silver coin to each and makers an 800% profit... Really? And this is allowed to go on for months....years...
This roll game is as old as eBay .. But when it's this obvious.. Is there really nothing to be done? Or is he not doing anything illegal? Just unethical? The fact he states them all as being "unsearched" is in itself a lie. Of course it is unsubstantiated but everyone knows the truth
Negatives
Rolls for sale
All items for sale
It's all junk - And he is making a fortune? Really ???
Who the hell is buying all this rubbish ... when does he "run out of" a gullible buyer base
0
Comments
<< <i>It's amazing the amount of roll scams there are on eBay, and I am a big believer in caveat emptor .. But I also believe there is an obligation to shut down an obvious scam with enough supporting evidence to confirm it. >>
It's plain to see what this guy offers - it says so right in his auctions.
If people are stupid enough to ignore all the negative FB and choose to believe that they will somehow get lucky buying his rolls, that's their problem.
In other words MYOB!
He seems to be making a killing with deception.
We cannot protect the ignorant from the guilty any more than we can prosecute someone as a criminal for preying on the stupid.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
You can't save people from themselves, just try to educate, thanks for the thread.
Don't buy these rolls expecting to get rich, but if you're having fun, enjoy your hobby
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>He's staying just on the side of "well, if they read carefully they can see what they're getting" and probably doesn't lose a bit of sleep over it -- but should. >>
Message board rules prohibit me from saying what I think about this seller and his business model.
Several years ago, I made the mistake of buying some "gem proof" coins in these holders.
All of the coins were damaged. Scratched, nicked, etc.
I did get my money back.
They operate on such volume, giving feebay so much $ in fees, that eBay turns a blind eye.
A little (possibly unknown to you) fact, eBay often scrubs the neg feedback from large sellers. I've seen it done plenty of times.
The unsearched rolls are not too bad. What's worse is the other crap they pull. I've seen them list things like "old collection found in grandfather clock", "cigar box with old coin collection found", "police evidence bag full of old coins", and such.
It's quite obvious that everything they list has some BS story to go along with it.
I've tried within my power to have this company shut down. I have turned them into the BBB, eBay, and other orgs. But like I said, they are all-too-powerful.
of Wheat cents, Buffalo nickels, etc. This went on for years, and you had to assume that enough novices
were buying to pay for the ads. This was back in the 1970's and 1980's, I believe.
Not sure that they were doing anything illegal, just deceptive, and certainly unethical.
But some folks shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard, as they obviously cannot read.
He got this negative, which, considering the title of the auction, tells me the buyer should have corrective brain surgery with a two-by-four.
<< <i>One dime and all others pennies. Would never buy again Buyer: muzac ( 29) Jan-03-13 20:09
Reply by coinsrocksgems1 (Jan-04-13 04:56):
Please contact us B4 leaving Negative! Item exactly as pictured and described!
1918 SILVER DIME SHOWING ON END OF 25 COIN WHEAT ROLL 145 (#230900439828) >>
Duhhh?!?
<< <i>It's amazing the amount of roll scams there are on eBay, and I am a big believer in caveat emptor .. But I also believe there is an obligation to shut down an obvious scam with enough supporting evidence to confirm it.
This guy has been selling the same rolls - I am only checking a couple of specific areas but have seen the same rolls being sold for months. I am sick of seeing the same stock photo roll under the Barber Quarter/Half categories --- these rolls have been listed for months...The naive JQP buyer really thinks he has thousands of "Early clad quarter rolls" that so happen to have a Barber quarter on top .. and that the roll may be filled with goodies? .... And of course we all know 39 quarters are clad with the lone silver quarter on top. the rolls are selling for an astounding $80+ sometimes - For sure a fool and his money are soon parted BUT .. come on eBay - It's pretty damn obvious what is going on. This guy obtains hundreds of clad rolls from the corner bank and adds a silver coin to each and makers an 800% profit... Really? And this is allowed to go on for months....years...
This roll game is as old as eBay .. But when it's this obvious.. Is there really nothing to be done? Or is he not doing anything illegal? Just unethical? The fact he states them all as being "unsearched" is in itself a lie. Of course it is unsubstantiated but everyone knows the truth
Negatives
Rolls for sale
All items for sale
It's all junk - And he is making a fortune? Really ???
Who the hell is buying all this rubbish ... when does he "run out of" a gullible buyer base >>
So where is the deception? He's selling EXACTLY what he says that he is selling. In your example, clad quarters with a barber thrown in. If buyers can't take the 2 seconds it requires to read the title/description of the auction--then it is their fault.
Buyers actually being held responsible for their own greed---WOW, what a concept!!!
Listed as "unsearched".
Listed as "wheat roll with indian head cent on end".
Seller obviously knows the content of the roll to state that there is a IHC on the end, and the rest are wheats.
Sellers uses the same pics for multiple auctions. One roll might have a high grade wheat on the end, the rest might be culls.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FULL-40-COIN-ROLL-OF-FULL-DATE-INDIAN-HEAD-BUFFALO-NICKELS-UNSEARCHED-/370743028521?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item565201ab29
How can this be unsearched? You just took the cap off.
Selling something unsearched that is not (unhonest), using stock photos with no promise of quality received (bait and switch), selling seeded, made up coin collections that were found in a clock (lying).
DECEPTION.
Case closed.
You can argue in the seller's favor all you want, but what he is doing is wrong. In the end, he will pay for his actions.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's amazing the amount of roll scams there are on eBay, and I am a big believer in caveat emptor .. But I also believe there is an obligation to shut down an obvious scam with enough supporting evidence to confirm it.
This guy has been selling the same rolls - I am only checking a couple of specific areas but have seen the same rolls being sold for months. I am sick of seeing the same stock photo roll under the Barber Quarter/Half categories --- these rolls have been listed for months...The naive JQP buyer really thinks he has thousands of "Early clad quarter rolls" that so happen to have a Barber quarter on top .. and that the roll may be filled with goodies? .... And of course we all know 39 quarters are clad with the lone silver quarter on top. the rolls are selling for an astounding $80+ sometimes - For sure a fool and his money are soon parted BUT .. come on eBay - It's pretty damn obvious what is going on. This guy obtains hundreds of clad rolls from the corner bank and adds a silver coin to each and makers an 800% profit... Really? And this is allowed to go on for months....years...
This roll game is as old as eBay .. But when it's this obvious.. Is there really nothing to be done? Or is he not doing anything illegal? Just unethical? The fact he states them all as being "unsearched" is in itself a lie. Of course it is unsubstantiated but everyone knows the truth
Negatives
Rolls for sale
All items for sale
It's all junk - And he is making a fortune? Really ???
Who the hell is buying all this rubbish ... when does he "run out of" a gullible buyer base >>
So where is the deception? He's selling EXACTLY what he says that he is selling. In your example, clad quarters with a barber thrown in. If buyers can't take the 2 seconds it requires to read the title/description of the auction--then it is their fault.
Buyers actually being held responsible for their own greed---WOW, what a concept!!! >>
Since you see nothing wrong with it, I'll concede your point. Guess I'll start up my own "unsearched rolls" with salted end coins biz on eBay and make my own little killing off the gullible -- and I hope you'll be there to defend me!
There is really no such thing as an unsearched roll on eBay. If you bought a coin collection, that had rolls in it, wouldn't you break it open and see what's inside? Of course you would.
Now, there are a few exceptions...
People sometimes sell rolls of Kennedy half dollars as unsearched. This is most likely true, as they got them from the bank. But you can get them from the bank yourself. I don't recommend doing this.
Sometimes people will sell OBW (original bank wrapped) rolls of Franklin half dollars, silver Washington quarters, and the like. There is a possibility for you to find a high grade coin in the mix. However....please do your homework and check out the seller before you buy.
Sometimes people will sell unsearched rolls of 40s and 50s wheat cents. There really is no point in opening up the rolls, due to the fact that newer wheat cents are low-value.
Other than that, stay away from any rolls that have something on the end. A civil war token on the end, a seated dime on the end, a gold coin on the end, etc.
<< <i>Not this guy, but several other dealers used to play a similar game in Coin World, selling "unsearched" bags
of Wheat cents, Buffalo nickels, etc. This went on for years, and you had to assume that enough novices
were buying to pay for the ads. This was back in the 1970's and 1980's, I believe.
Not sure that they were doing anything illegal, just deceptive, and certainly unethical.
Yes, his name was Bruce Abr..... He was famous enough to have people mentioning him in magazine articles. He advertised “Whopper dopper” rolls of Indian cents, Liberty nickels and early date Lincoln cents. When customers opened the rolls they found coins from the 1960s and ‘70s. The guy was banned from taking “for sale” ads in Coin World, but they allowed him to place buy ads in the classifieds to purchase coins under a different name. It makes you wonder why a guy who had the talent to market a successful coin business saw the need to rip his customers and poison his own well after he went to the trouble to dig it.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Also showing a dime at the end of a roll of pennies is also a big red flag to me. It's been my experience during roll searching that they are always found in the middle of the roll and not at the end.
At some point common sense should kick in, especially if you've done this type of thing before. Other wise the buyer is a sucker. Seeing that I do believe in the words of P T Barnum that there is a sucker born every minute. So there should be a lot out there.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It's amazing the amount of roll scams there are on eBay, and I am a big believer in caveat emptor .. But I also believe there is an obligation to shut down an obvious scam with enough supporting evidence to confirm it.
This guy has been selling the same rolls - I am only checking a couple of specific areas but have seen the same rolls being sold for months. I am sick of seeing the same stock photo roll under the Barber Quarter/Half categories --- these rolls have been listed for months...The naive JQP buyer really thinks he has thousands of "Early clad quarter rolls" that so happen to have a Barber quarter on top .. and that the roll may be filled with goodies? .... And of course we all know 39 quarters are clad with the lone silver quarter on top. the rolls are selling for an astounding $80+ sometimes - For sure a fool and his money are soon parted BUT .. come on eBay - It's pretty damn obvious what is going on. This guy obtains hundreds of clad rolls from the corner bank and adds a silver coin to each and makers an 800% profit... Really? And this is allowed to go on for months....years...
This roll game is as old as eBay .. But when it's this obvious.. Is there really nothing to be done? Or is he not doing anything illegal? Just unethical? The fact he states them all as being "unsearched" is in itself a lie. Of course it is unsubstantiated but everyone knows the truth
Negatives
Rolls for sale
All items for sale
It's all junk - And he is making a fortune? Really ???
Who the hell is buying all this rubbish ... when does he "run out of" a gullible buyer base >>
So where is the deception? He's selling EXACTLY what he says that he is selling. In your example, clad quarters with a barber thrown in. If buyers can't take the 2 seconds it requires to read the title/description of the auction--then it is their fault.
Buyers actually being held responsible for their own greed---WOW, what a concept!!! >>
Since you see nothing wrong with it, I'll concede your point. Guess I'll start up my own "unsearched rolls" with salted end coins biz on eBay and make my own little killing off the gullible -- and I hope you'll be there to defend me!
Absolutely, I will--as long as you don't claim something that is demonstrably false--such as "Barber quarter on end of roll when there isn't one there, or claim that the entire roll is silver rather than clad with a Barber quarter on the end.
This seller does not do so.
Note: I have absolutely no idea who this seller is and whether or not his rolls are pre-searched for "special" coins. I fully suspect that he is lying and that they are--but to make a blanket statement that they are presearched with no supporting evidence is wrong as well.
They are selling a seated half dollar, on the end of a "mixed Kennedy roll".
Now, if you have this roll, how do you know it's "mixed". The other end of the roll shows the reverse. What if the entire roll is 90% silver, 40% silver ,or clad?
You don't. You cannot call the roll "mixed" unless you knew what coins were in there.
The odds of that are 20-1. What are the odds of randomly getting a Barber quarter out of a pile of 90% silver coins? Maybe 1 out of 50? 1 out of 100?
That brings the odds of this guy's auctions to 1000-1 to 2000-1. The odds of it happening randomly a second time in a row on the next roll sold?
Now you're at the same odds of winning a state lottery.
How many people in this world buy any product and never read the instructions (when applicable) no different here.
Rob
<< <i>Funny that the OP mentions this seller. I noticed him last week and thought the same thing. I guess that 99.6% rating is what really matters. >>
eBay calculates the percentage based on volume. I have seen Chinese mega-sellers with thousands of negs, but since they have millions of positives, it balances it out.
On the other hand, just a handful of negs to a small seller can lower it horribly.
<< <i>eBay calculates the percentage based on volume. I have seen Chinese mega-sellers with thousands of negs, but since they have millions of positives, it balances it out.
On the other hand, just a handful of negs to a small seller can lower it horribly. >>
Yeah, this is the mathematical concept known as percentage, and it's represented by the "%" sign.
<< <i>
<< <i>eBay calculates the percentage based on volume. I have seen Chinese mega-sellers with thousands of negs, but since they have millions of positives, it balances it out.
On the other hand, just a handful of negs to a small seller can lower it horribly. >>
Yeah, this is the mathematical concept known as percentage, and it's represented by the "%" sign. >>
Partner @Gold Hill Coin
<< <i>are all his rolls sold with a 14 day money back option or just the ones i looked at ? seems like a weak case for ripping people off when there is a money back clause. i would say... let people buy whatever the >>>> they feel like buying >>
Which of course is true - just make sure you return the roll unopened.
If you read the full OP .. I stated I was a big believer in caveat emptor (Buyer Beware); and I am. All I said was the business model was unethical in my opinion. They are knowingly deceiving people. But so do some people who sell used cars. I also echoed many of the same sentiments expressed by others on both sides of the issue.
It is simply my opinion that many of the "green" novice buyers who fall for traps like this could get a bad first impression of numismatics or even of eBay as a whole. For this reason alone, it would seem to me to be in eBay's best interest to police this sort of thing. It would seem to me the numismatic community as a whole would want to police such scams to prevent newbs from possibly getting a bad taste in their mouth. Some of these people that buy these things are victims of their own greed - trying to get something for nothing, or hoping to hit a lottery ticket. We all know there are no lottery tickets here and you generally get what you pay for.
Selling counterfeit slabs and coins is illegal, but it is deceptive. While it is not perfectly analogous, those sellers are knowingly deceiving people. It just happens they are using an illegal means to get there by counterfeiting. Intentional deception is a bad thing in my book and that's the only point I am trying to make. Counterfeits are illegal and replica coins are not permitted on eBay. But replicas were permitted for a long time, up until a year or so ago .. And the vast majority of people wanted them gone then....
I would like to see the obvious scam artists gone - It is good for absolutely no one but the seller. In the long run, even eBay suffers as I believe those profits are offset by losses when people stop buying as a result of these activities.
Just my opinion.
Clearly there are 2 opposing opinions on the business model
If buyers can't be bothered to read the TITLE of the auction and just bid on an image backed by assumptions and ignorance, then they should not complain when they win EXACTLY what was described in the TITLE.
You can't protect some people from just being stupid. It seems that some people's purpose in life is just to be a warning for others.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>In the roll listings I read ... this seller states in plain, easy-to-read English in the TITLE of his/her listings what is in the auction. No "hidden" language, no secret code, no murky promises ... where's the deception?
If buyers can't be bothered to read the TITLE of the auction and just bid on an image backed by assumptions and ignorance, then they should not complain when they win EXACTLY what was described in the TITLE.
You can't protect some people from just being stupid. It seems that some people's purpose in life is just to be a warning for others. >>
Here is the deception:
UNSEARCHED ROLL
These rolls are not unsearched. Selling something as something it's not, is deception.
USES SAME PHOTO.
Even if you get a roll, you have no idea what quality the end coin will be. The seller uses stock photos for listings. What appears to be a XF seated dime on the end, could be a slick in your shipment.
MAKES UP STORIES.
Old coin collection hidden in grandfather clock? How many grandfather clocks does this seller own? I've seen over 50 of the same listings. Police evidence bag full of old coins? Kind of funny the evidence bag is not even a real one. Evidence bags are clear plastic bags, these were deposit bags.
There ya go. 3 cut and dry examples of how the seller is deceptive.
A couple of years ago this place setup in a hotel of my local town. I'm not gonna give out the name, but they later got into all sorts of legal trouble, such as saying they were a member of the BBB when they were not, writing bad checks, etc.
This company was buying coins, gold, silver, guitars, art, etc.
I saw many elderly people bring in their entire coin collection, only to get pennies on the dollar. I saw silver dollars sold for $8 each (they were worth around $25-$27 at the time), wheat pennies sold at face, and all kinds of other things.
Now, were these people "naive"? No. They just didn't know any better. The elderly are perhaps the most scammed and deceived age range of the entire human populace.
But, it's not really their fault. Maybe they didn't have anyone in the family who knew about coins. Maybe they thought the local pawnshop would screw them worse.
The fact is, there will always be "sheep" in the coin collecting world. No matter how much you educate, no matter how many people you tell, there will always be sheep.
The best thing you can do, is to dismantle the wolves. The wolves are places like this eBay sellers, who is using deception in order to make a profit. The wolves are the people who you see on TV selling a "24 karat pure gold plated" coin. The wolves are the people who run high priced coin company like Littleton.
The more wolves you reduce, the less the sheep will be prayed upon. There will ALWAYS be sheep, but if you reduce the amount of wolves, then the sheep have a better life.
<< <i>Do any of these prospective buyers stop to think that the "good" coin/quarter always ends up at the end of the roll? >>
The wife picked up a roll of quarters at the local bank a couple of weeks ago. This 2002-S New Hampshire Statehood proof quarter was on the end of the roll. Of course, it was the only goodie in the entire roll. Certainly beat the odds on that one.
<< <i>The fact of the matter is, there will always be naive people.
A couple of years ago this place setup in a hotel of my local town. I'm not gonna give out the name, but they later got into all sorts of legal trouble, such as saying they were a member of the BBB when they were not, writing bad checks, etc.
This company was buying coins, gold, silver, guitars, art, etc.
I saw many elderly people bring in their entire coin collection, only to get pennies on the dollar. I saw silver dollars sold for $8 each (they were worth around $25-$27 at the time), wheat pennies sold at face, and all kinds of other things.
Now, were these people "naive"? No. They just didn't know any better. The elderly are perhaps the most scammed and deceived age range of the entire human populace.
But, it's not really their fault. Maybe they didn't have anyone in the family who knew about coins. Maybe they thought the local pawnshop would screw them worse.
The fact is, there will always be "sheep" in the coin collecting world. No matter how much you educate, no matter how many people you tell, there will always be sheep.
The best thing you can do, is to dismantle the wolves. The wolves are places like this eBay sellers, who is using deception in order to make a profit. The wolves are the people who you see on TV selling a "24 karat pure gold plated" coin. The wolves are the people who run high priced coin company like Littleton.
The more wolves you reduce, the less the sheep will be prayed upon. There will ALWAYS be sheep, but if you reduce the amount of wolves, then the sheep have a better life. >>
I believe it's every person's responsibility to look out for themselves, whether elderly or not.
There is absolutely no excuse of not knowing the value of what you have.
The information is readily available (for coins at least).
Those that get ripped-off by those hotel buyers have only themselves and their laziness to blame.
<< <i>
<< <i>The fact of the matter is, there will always be naive people.
A couple of years ago this place setup in a hotel of my local town. I'm not gonna give out the name, but they later got into all sorts of legal trouble, such as saying they were a member of the BBB when they were not, writing bad checks, etc.
This company was buying coins, gold, silver, guitars, art, etc.
I saw many elderly people bring in their entire coin collection, only to get pennies on the dollar. I saw silver dollars sold for $8 each (they were worth around $25-$27 at the time), wheat pennies sold at face, and all kinds of other things.
Now, were these people "naive"? No. They just didn't know any better. The elderly are perhaps the most scammed and deceived age range of the entire human populace.
But, it's not really their fault. Maybe they didn't have anyone in the family who knew about coins. Maybe they thought the local pawnshop would screw them worse.
The fact is, there will always be "sheep" in the coin collecting world. No matter how much you educate, no matter how many people you tell, there will always be sheep.
The best thing you can do, is to dismantle the wolves. The wolves are places like this eBay sellers, who is using deception in order to make a profit. The wolves are the people who you see on TV selling a "24 karat pure gold plated" coin. The wolves are the people who run high priced coin company like Littleton.
The more wolves you reduce, the less the sheep will be prayed upon. There will ALWAYS be sheep, but if you reduce the amount of wolves, then the sheep have a better life. >>
I believe it's every person's responsibility to look out for themselves, whether elderly or not.
There is absolutely no excuse of not knowing the value of what you have.
The information is readily available (for coins at least).
Those that get ripped-off by those hotel buyers have only themselves and their laziness to blame.
So your defending their actions? Your allowing these types of operations to exist? You don't think there is anything wrong with what some of these setups do?
I'm a firm believer in fair trading. Don't rip people off by selling something for tons more than it's worth, and don't rip people off by offering them 10% of what something is worth.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The fact of the matter is, there will always be naive people.
A couple of years ago this place setup in a hotel of my local town. I'm not gonna give out the name, but they later got into all sorts of legal trouble, such as saying they were a member of the BBB when they were not, writing bad checks, etc.
This company was buying coins, gold, silver, guitars, art, etc.
I saw many elderly people bring in their entire coin collection, only to get pennies on the dollar. I saw silver dollars sold for $8 each (they were worth around $25-$27 at the time), wheat pennies sold at face, and all kinds of other things.
Now, were these people "naive"? No. They just didn't know any better. The elderly are perhaps the most scammed and deceived age range of the entire human populace.
But, it's not really their fault. Maybe they didn't have anyone in the family who knew about coins. Maybe they thought the local pawnshop would screw them worse.
The fact is, there will always be "sheep" in the coin collecting world. No matter how much you educate, no matter how many people you tell, there will always be sheep.
The best thing you can do, is to dismantle the wolves. The wolves are places like this eBay sellers, who is using deception in order to make a profit. The wolves are the people who you see on TV selling a "24 karat pure gold plated" coin. The wolves are the people who run high priced coin company like Littleton.
The more wolves you reduce, the less the sheep will be prayed upon. There will ALWAYS be sheep, but if you reduce the amount of wolves, then the sheep have a better life. >>
I believe it's every person's responsibility to look out for themselves, whether elderly or not.
There is absolutely no excuse of not knowing the value of what you have.
The information is readily available (for coins at least).
Those that get ripped-off by those hotel buyers have only themselves and their laziness to blame.
So your defending their actions? Your allowing these types of operations to exist? You don't think there is anything wrong with what some of these setups do?
I'm a firm believer in fair trading. Don't rip people off by selling something for tons more than it's worth, and don't rip people off by offering them 10% of what something is worth. >>
I'm a firm believer in the free market system. Inherent in the system is the historical admonition caveat emptor.
<< <i>Now, were these people "naive"? No. They just didn't know any better. >>
Interesting....
FYI- Merriam-Webster definition of naive.... "2a: deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment"
RIP Mom- 1932-2012