Speaking of $27,000 Franklins ...
wondercoin
Posts: 17,000 ✭✭✭✭✭
Can anyone create side by side photos for me of the following (3) Heritage coins here:
1. 1/10/09 sale of the pop 1/0 1961 Proof Franklin in PCGS-PR69DCAM at $27,600.
2. 9/7/12 sale of a 1961 Proof Franklin in NGC-PR69UC at $9,987.50.
3. This afternoon's sale of the pop 81/1 1961 Proof Franklin in PCGS-PR68DCAM that I had to spend over $3,500 to buy with a price guide value of just $950.
If the photos can be set up here, I think this thread can become very educational and I will have some additional comments as well.
Wondercoin
1. 1/10/09 sale of the pop 1/0 1961 Proof Franklin in PCGS-PR69DCAM at $27,600.
2. 9/7/12 sale of a 1961 Proof Franklin in NGC-PR69UC at $9,987.50.
3. This afternoon's sale of the pop 81/1 1961 Proof Franklin in PCGS-PR68DCAM that I had to spend over $3,500 to buy with a price guide value of just $950.
If the photos can be set up here, I think this thread can become very educational and I will have some additional comments as well.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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Comments
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Wondercoin
Wondercoin
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It's real easy to exaggerate contrast in photos. I wouldn't place too much credence in the fact that the PCGS coin "looks" more frosted.
Edit: from the photos, the NGC coin looks cleaner. Of course coins of this value should always be seen in person before bidding/buying.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
Wondercoin
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Don't they have blown up pics for these coins? >>
I assume so.
Here are the linx if you wanna see em. You may need to sign in to see the big ones. Or smoeone else can postem.
1961 PCGS PR68
1961 NGC PR69
1961 PCGS PR69
I wanted to use these (3) pics to demonstrate that collectors on nearly any budget can locate wonderful coins in their price range. You hear the montra "buy the nicest coin you possibly can in your price range". Some collectors wonder whether they can ever build a nice collection of coins if they are not chasing the pop top coins. Well, these (3) coins show clearly that you can.
Let's start with the pop 1/0 1961 Franklin in PCGS-PR69DCAM. Only (1) collector in the world can own the pop 1/0 PR69DCAM PCGS specimen and that cost that collector in excess of $27,000 for those "bragging rights". Again, this coin is probably not for 99%+ of the collectors out there. But, to that collector who wants the very best 1961 proof Franklin according to PCGS through roughly 27 years of grading this coin ... $27,000+ gets you the coin.
But, for roughly $7,500 - $10,000, another group of collectors (maybe 2%-5% of the collector base out there?) can be satisfied with one of the (7) best 1961 proof Franklins according to NGC. Obviously, the chances of crossing any one of these (7) coins to PCGS is not very good in my opinion which is why the coin sells for about 37 cents on the dollar as compared to the PCGS coin (and yes, "not very good" does not mean impossible). Maybe the DCAM is just not deep enough for PCGS to call DCAM, maybe the coin would only be PR68+ quality at PCGS as compared to PR69 quality at NGC .. there are many reasons the NGC coins might not cross in the eyes of the PCGS graders using their standard. But, if you are a collector with only roughly $7,500 - $10,000 to spend on a very high end 1961 proof Franklin one option is obviously to buy one of the NGC PR69UC (pop 7) coins. You save about $20,000 and get a nice coin.
Now, for the remaining 95% - 98% of the collectors out there ... the only option might be a PR68DCAM or lower grade example. The Price Guide is $950 on a PR68DCAM and there are (81) PCGS examples out there in that grade to chose from. Here is where a typical collector can build a lovely coin collection without chasing "pop tops". With patience, a collector can wait for a fabulous "PQ" example in PR68DCAM to come by and when one does that collector might have to "throw the price guide out the window" to acquire the coin. That is exactly what happened to me at FUN this weekend. A PR68DCAM example of the 1961 Proof Franklin Half Dollar came along that was in my view sensational for the grade. A coin I would be proud to own for my collection even though it was not a top pop coin. Obviously, I am not the only one out there that liked the coin for the grade and so it cost me more than $3,500 to nail down this particular coin even though the Price Guide was only $950 for this grade. This PR68DCAM has some of the deepest cameo I had ever seen on a 1961 Franklin Half Dollar. On a scale of 1-10 for DCAM (an article I am putting together at this time on that very subject), this coin was right up there in the 9 or 10 range! The surfaces were nicer than any PR68 I had seen as well. Hence, the 300% over Price Guide cost on the coin.
But, as you can see, whether you have $3,500 to spend, near $10,000 to spend or even more than $27,000 to spend on a proof Franklin ... there is often a wonderful coin out there for you for your price range. Just do your homework and have patience with your purchases.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoins
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I made this PR68 DCAM 1961 Franklin last year, and sold it to my B&M dealer, who likely took it along to FUN last week, did you see it there? I'm nearly certain you could have owned it for substantially less than the $3,500 you paid.
for those with only $400 or so to spend on proof Franklins, you can buy them raw.... by the roll
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
2. Yes, there are many 1961 Proof Franklins available in PR68DCAM for $1,000 or less and this is yet another price level for a collector seeking out the very best coin he can afford for the money he has to spend. If one had $1,000 to spend that would be the quest. Since I had $3,500 to spend, I went after what I consider the nicest 1961 proof Franklin in that price range. In fact, my "secret bid" was substantially above the actual price I paid for this coin. I was comfortable paying that for the quality of the coin I was buying. THE $950 PRICE GUIDE MEANT NOTHING TO ME AS THAT GUIDE IS FOR THE TYPICAL COIN FOR THE GRADE, NOT FOR WHAT I CONSIDERED THE NICEST 1961 PR68DCAM FRANKLIN I COULD EVER FIND FOR THE GRADE.
3. And, yes, if your budget is only $20 there is a coin for you as well.
Wondercoin
"My lesson in retrospect is that in order to build a top set affordably, you have to have access to lots of specimens that are raw, in rolls and in "alien" and undergraded holders in the process, and to have the sort of knowledge, patience, savvy and "eye" to spot the occasional exceptional ones. I took the easier route of relying on dealers, other collectors and auctions to build the set, acquiring coins that had already been "made," and usually marketed at top dollar. Time alone is definitely no assurance that initial costs otherwise will ever be recovered."
That sage advice is why I believe if David had to do it all over again (and collected proof Franklins), he would be fighting for the $3,500 coin I just won, not the $27,000 coin in many more cases than he had been. Yes, where one comes across an amazing for the grade specimen every now and again in the $27,000 range (in our examples here) if you are intent on building the best set you may have to go for it. But, to build a top set "affordably", the key is to pursue specimens like the $3,500 coin in my example.
For example, what if my PR68DCAM coin eventually pluses at PCGS and becomes the very first PR68+DCAM (pop 1/1) ... something it is very possible could happen? Now you have the following situation:
PR68DCAM - (80) pieces and worth about $1,000 each
PR68+DCAM (1) piece'that cost $3,600 with added grading fee and still looks incredible for the grade with the deepest DCAM imaginable for the date.
PR69DCAM (1) piece and last traded at $27,000+
In the above situation, how does the $3,600 look now in building a world class proof Franklin collection? This is exactly what Mr. Poole alluded to in his comment today concerning his methods of collecting his world class silver Washington quarter set.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
P.S. If a great coin upgrades the full point ... in this case to PR69DCAM, then $3,500 bought a $20,000+ coin. I am not saying it is going to happen with this particular coin, but it happens often to collectors who pursue the very best coins. I sold a collector a $200 MS66 coin that went to being worth around $15,000 when it upgraded the full point recently. That was my second favorite piece of the date and my number one piece has yet to upgrade at all. It's all part of the "game" ... just ask Nick Cascio (onlyroosies) about that!!
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Wondercoin
P.S. If a great coin upgrades the full point ... in this case to PR69DCAM, then $3,500 bought a $20,000+ coin. I am not saying it is going to happen with this particular coin, but it happens often to collectors who pursue the very best coins. I sold a collector a $200 MS66 coin that went to being worth around $15,000 when it upgraded the full point recently. That was my second favorite piece of the date and my number one piece has yet to upgrade at all. It's all part of the "game" ... just ask Nick Cascio (onlyroosies) about that!! >>
Oh please do give us some clues!
Tx
I would never pay for a bump in price like you are talking.....
I would enjoy putting a set of proof franklin's together, but only some much money to spend on coins.....
I might assert that is NOT the problem but the solution! Assemble the "well put together set" with little or no money ... right?
Wondercoin
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I might assert that is NOT the problem but the solution! Assemble the "well put together set" with little or no money ... right?
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It's actually easier to do this now for most collectors than it was before the grading services. In the
old days one needed access to lots of rolls and many of the rolls were elusive or very expensive. Now
a collector can at least find graded coins to seek nice examples.
It's less work and lower cost now to assemble the exact same collection. If you can't afford the 67
just find the nicest 66 which you might prefer to the 67 anyway. Perhaps when you want to sell the
market will agree with you.
I collected Franklins for years in the '70's before giving up on a Gem set.
Link to 1950 - 1964 Proof Registry Set
1938 - 1964 Proof Jeffersons w/ Varieties
<< <i>I like proof Franklins; however, in my mind there is no such thing as a proof Franklin worth $3500. No offense intended; but, I can buy a "real" coin for $3500, such as a proof Seated dollar. >>
My thoughts exactly...and for $10K you could get -- in PCGS Proof 63 -- a Morgan, Seated AND Trade dollar.