*NEW* PCGS Restoration Service !
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fivecents
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"Coins which are restored will be charged 4% of the value of the coin in its final grade. This value will be determined using higher of the PCGS Price Guide or Declared Value."
"The final cost of a Restoration submission cannot be known until the coins have completed the process; consequently on the submission form costs will be estimated using the declared value for each coin."
"You must agree that PCGS has the right to determine all coin values."
About half of that page is devoted to costs and payment. I'd like to see something at least regarding the chemicals and processes used. What about a guarantee of stability?
Eric
Wow.
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<< <i>About half of that page is devoted to costs and payment. I'd like to see something at least regarding the chemicals and processes used. What about a guarantee of stability?
Eric >>
You can be sure that the techniques/methods and chemicals used are proprietary (fancy way of saying secret).
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>About half of that page is devoted to costs and payment. I'd like to see something at least regarding the chemicals and processes used. What about a guarantee of stability?
Eric >>
You can be sure that the techniques/methods and chemicals used are proprietary (fancy way of saying secret). >>
Perry, Hi
I know
But, would you submit a "problematic" Proof Seated coin for "restoration" without knowing what is being done and with what substances? Coins and fine art have been compared before, and this is not a great analogy, but who would have a Vermeer worked on without knowing any of the materials to be used or how - or even by whom? Folks want this or that coin looked at by this or that specific person (Snow for Indians, Bruce for Trade $), but some people are going to have the coins TREATED by an unknown in unknown ways and with all the other stuff i just mentioned? In that kind of Conservation, with Vermeer and easel painting, there is at least some professional consensus about what you do and what you don't do and why and with what (even if it were just Helmut Ruheman's 1960's tome it would be enough if folks read it, understood and listened). And what about a guarantee of stability?
Best wishes for the weekend,
Eric
That information NEEDS to be available, IMHO.
<< <i>Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't you think since they'd be charging a fee of 4% of a coin's "declared value" if it is successfully resorted, they'd be wanting to get more coins into holders? Perhaps coins that really don't belong in holders? I'd also like to know if there's any way to tell if a coin in one of their holders has gone through the restoration process.
That information NEEDS to be available, IMHO. >>
Good points all. Re the bit I put in bold, I would too, but as posts here have shown known $$$ coins that have been "redressed" already appear in problem free TPG plastics, new skin, colors and all for auction at the big sites.
Eric
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>About half of that page is devoted to costs and payment. I'd like to see something at least regarding the chemicals and processes used. What about a guarantee of stability?
Eric >>
You can be sure that the techniques/methods and chemicals used are proprietary (fancy way of saying secret). >>
Perry, Hi
I know
But, would you submit a "problematic" Proof Seated coin for "restoration" without knowing what is being done and with what substances? Coins and fine art have been compared before, and this is not a great analogy, but who would have a Vermeer worked on without knowing any of the materials to be used or how - or even by whom? Folks want this or that coin looked at by this or that specific person (Snow for Indians, Bruce for Trade $), but some people are going to have the coins TREATED by an unknown in unknown ways and with all the other stuff i just mentioned? In that kind of Conservation, with Vermeer and easel painting, there is at least some professional consensus about what you do and what you don't do and why and with what (even if it were just Helmut Ruheman's 1960's tome it would be enough if folks read it, understood and listened). And what about a guarantee of stability?
Best wishes for the weekend,
Eric >>
I understand you concerns but can you blame them for not wanting to reveal their trade secrets? I guess you need to have faith that they know what they are doing.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>About half of that page is devoted to costs and payment. I'd like to see something at least regarding the chemicals and processes used. What about a guarantee of stability?
Eric >>
You can be sure that the techniques/methods and chemicals used are proprietary (fancy way of saying secret). >>
Perry, Hi
I know
But, would you submit a "problematic" Proof Seated coin for "restoration" without knowing what is being done and with what substances? Coins and fine art have been compared before, and this is not a great analogy, but who would have a Vermeer worked on without knowing any of the materials to be used or how - or even by whom? Folks want this or that coin looked at by this or that specific person (Snow for Indians, Bruce for Trade $), but some people are going to have the coins TREATED by an unknown in unknown ways and with all the other stuff i just mentioned? In that kind of Conservation, with Vermeer and easel painting, there is at least some professional consensus about what you do and what you don't do and why and with what (even if it were just Helmut Ruheman's 1960's tome it would be enough if folks read it, understood and listened). And what about a guarantee of stability?
Best wishes for the weekend,
Eric >>
I understand you concerns but can you blame them for not wanting to reveal their trade secrets? I guess you need to have faith that they know what they are doing. >>
Or why.
Eric
Eric
If I have a PCGS PR65BN Matte Proof Lincoln that is dark in hand ... could it be "restored" to make it lighter (more light reflective)?
I also wonder what processes they might put a coin through ... an acetone soak? what else?
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<< <i>I agree. I am not sure I understand why types of coins can be restored (and what cases work best)
If I have a PCGS PR65BN Matte Proof Lincoln that is dark in hand ... could it be "restored" to make it lighter (more light reflective)?
I also wonder what processes they might put a coin through ... an acetone soak? what else? >>
A coin like this would probably be rejected for conservation since PCGS would most likely determine that a dark copper coin couldn't be improved without giving it an unnatural color that would result in a no-grade slab.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree. I am not sure I understand why types of coins can be restored (and what cases work best)
If I have a PCGS PR65BN Matte Proof Lincoln that is dark in hand ... could it be "restored" to make it lighter (more light reflective)?
I also wonder what processes they might put a coin through ... an acetone soak? what else? >>
A coin like this would probably be rejected for conservation since PCGS would most likely determine that a dark copper coin couldn't be improved without giving it an unnatural color that would result in a no-grade slab. >>
That costs $25. Cheaper to submit to the room for opinions
Eric
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree. I am not sure I understand why types of coins can be restored (and what cases work best)
If I have a PCGS PR65BN Matte Proof Lincoln that is dark in hand ... could it be "restored" to make it lighter (more light reflective)?
I also wonder what processes they might put a coin through ... an acetone soak? what else? >>
A coin like this would probably be rejected for conservation since PCGS would most likely determine that a dark copper coin couldn't be improved without giving it an unnatural color that would result in a no-grade slab. >>
That costs $25. Cheaper to submit to the room for opinions
Eric >>
Most here would say leave well enough alone. Copper is more sensitive to chemical dips or other processes than other coinage metals and the results are frequently less than satisfactory and irreversible.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't you think since they'd be charging a fee of 4% of a coin's "declared value" if it is successfully resorted, they'd be wanting to get more coins into holders? Perhaps coins that really don't belong in holders? I'd also like to know if there's any way to tell if a coin in one of their holders has gone through the restoration process.
That information NEEDS to be available, IMHO. >>
Good points all. Re the bit I put in bold, I would too, but as posts here have shown known $$$ coins that have been "redressed" already appear in problem free TPG plastics, new skin, colors and all for auction at the big sites.
Eric >>
Exactly. A lot of 19th century and earlier material have been subject to some sort of cleaning over their careers, and I don't see a difference between a coin being conserved by a collector as opposed to a business. I would actually prefer the latter doing my preservation, as they probably have far greater experience and acumen when conserving as compared to Joe Six-Pack.
<< <i>
<< <i>About half of that page is devoted to costs and payment. I'd like to see something at least regarding the chemicals and processes used. What about a guarantee of stability?
Eric >>
You can be sure that the techniques/methods and chemicals used are proprietary (fancy way of saying secret). >>
Considering the sniffer (tm) process- this could get really scary if the secret gets out, no? ???????
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree. I am not sure I understand why types of coins can be restored (and what cases work best)
If I have a PCGS PR65BN Matte Proof Lincoln that is dark in hand ... could it be "restored" to make it lighter (more light reflective)?
I also wonder what processes they might put a coin through ... an acetone soak? what else? >>
A coin like this would probably be rejected for conservation since PCGS would most likely determine that a dark copper coin couldn't be improved without giving it an unnatural color that would result in a no-grade slab. >>
Hi,
from the description of your Lincoln Cent it sounds to me that would never be a candidate. Not only for the reasons Perry stated, but I don't think we should be looking for improvements in reflectivity, color or grade bumps as the other thread(s). I had hoped this would be more along the lines of conservation/stabilization (if possible, as with verdigris) and the removal of what are clear problems (severe haze on Pr Walker to removal of toning or other contaminants. Which toning? Dark, splotchy toning that interferes severely with the intended design and devices as seen in the hoped-for additional before and after photos - there, thats a start on terminology and parameters....). Even the sample pic on the Restoration page - I rather like those colors in the foliage.
I hope several large images, of coins in the various metals to be treated (I see they will do copper as they state they will do "All..."), showing more clearly delineated examples of what they will do, and also a lot showing what they won't do. I know it is in its infancy, but this all seems rather loosely bound and nebulous. A lot of folks have mentioned not being sure what the service is actually for; some have also mentioned the want for more "before and after imagery" etc.. In this case more pics would be worth a thousand words. By keeping what will and won't be treated vague there will be lots of unnecessary $25 rejected submissions I suspect, and no one wants that. I also hope this does not cause some sort of weird backlash at certain levels of the hobby where newer folks start attempting these procedures by themselves more often as it is now an "accepted" practice (which practice? We don't know exactly but some could see it as cleaning). This is likely a very small concern; many folks today just throw money instead of learning or doing, as the ability to purchase a fully certified, unified and researched collection illustrates.
And, what about stability??? What if some Restoration procedure, maybe one that has not had accelerated testing like some other products, are found to harm or turn etc? Are we guaranteed...the same guarantee?
I recall reading where the imager would find coins that had been "treated" to garner a higher grade, possibly by eye appeal or color adjustments or mark removal - it will now recognize previously seen coins with new appearances that are OK & problem free because the coins history has been logged by the Restoration Service?
The guarantee was changed re copper color, but they will restore copper? Is stability implied?
I sure hope the sniffer has been told what the Restoration Service will be using
Eric
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<< <i>Did Jack in the Box have this problem with their so-called secret sauce? >>
Or, the secret formula for Coca Cola.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I find it amusing (and telling) that they are perfectly happy to use their own price guide when charging fees, while at the same time completely ignoring it when making sub-Graysheet buyback offers. >>
I am afraid this type of pricing structure may have the goose looking over it's shoulder for the ax.
<< <i>
<< <i>I find it amusing (and telling) that they are perfectly happy to use their own price guide when charging fees, while at the same time completely ignoring it when making sub-Graysheet buyback offers. >>
I am afraid this type of pricing structure may have the goose looking over it's shoulder for the ax. >>
There are definite perverse incentives for the company in this pricing structure.
Also, IMO this service should be indicated on the holder. Lets hope the folks at PCGS feel the same way.
Eric