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No one gets into the Hall of Fame this year...
miconelegacy
Posts: 3,052 ✭
Surprised thought Biggio, Bags or Piazza would get in. Somebody....but nobody.
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"Live everyday, don't throw it away"
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Craig Biggio 388 (68.2%) 1
Jack Morris 385 (67.7%) 14
Jeff Bagwell 339 (59.6%) 3
Mike Piazza 329 (57.8%) 1
Tim Raines 297 (52.2%) 6
Lee Smith 272 (47.8%) 11
Curt Schilling 221 (38.8%) 1
Roger Clemens 214 (37.6%) 1
Barry Bonds 206 (36.2%) 1
Edgar Martinez 204 (35.9%) 4
Alan Trammell 191 (33.6%) 12
Larry Walker 123 (21.6%) 3
Fred McGriff 118 (20.7%) 4
Dale Murphy 106 (18.6%) 15
Mark McGwire 96 (16.9%) 7
Don Mattingly 75 (13.2%) 13
Sammy Sosa 71 (12.5%) 1
Rafael Palmeiro 50 (8.8%) 3
Bernie Williams 19 (3.3%) 2
Kenny Lofton 18 (3.2%) 1
Sandy Alomar Jr. 16 (2.8%) 1
Julio Franco 6 (1.1%) 1
David Wells 5 (0.9%) 1
Steve Finley 4 (0.7%) 1
Shawn Green 2 (0.4%) 1
Aaron Sele 1 (0.2%) 1
Jeff Cirillo 0 (0%) 1
Royce Clayton 0 (0%) 1
Jeff Conine 0 (0%) 1
Roberto Hernandez 0 (0%) 1
Ryan Klesko 0 (0%) 1
Jose Mesa 0 (0%) 1
Reggie Sanders 0 (0%) 1
Mike Stanton 0 (0%) 1
Todd Walker 0 (0%) 1
Rondell White 0 (0%) 1
Woody Williams 0 (0%) 1
Edited to add: Does Aaron Sele's mom have a vote?
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>Surprised thought Biggio, Bags or Piazza would get in. Somebody....but nobody. >>
I am glad. I want it to be tougher to get into.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Thought/hoped Biggio and/or Raines would make it...oh well.
+1
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
IMF
<< <i>who voted for Aaron Sele?
IMF >>
I think people that don't take their vote seriously should lose it. Really. How can someone, other than Aaron's mom, vote for him for the HOF? Maybe a mistake I suppose!? He's not even the hall of good or hall of ok.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>So Dale Murphy, being the 15th year on the ballot now basically means he has no chance ever getting in >>
Not necessarily, he still has the veterans committee that can elect him in.
I'm sure he'll be considered on at least one Veteran's Committee ballot.
Always plenty of PSA-graded cards in my ebay store -- https://ebay.com/str/thelumbercompanysportscards
<< <i>So Dale Murphy, being the 15th year on the ballot now basically means he has no chance ever getting in. >>
There's always the Veterans Committee.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>So Dale Murphy, being the 15th year on the ballot now basically means he has no chance ever getting in. >>
There's always the Veterans Committee. >>
I can see the purpose of the Veterans Committee when the Hall first began, but hasn't the Hall has been around long enough to get rid of the Veterans Committee?
How many other 3000 hit members did not get in on their first attempt over the past 60 years?
Obviously there were a few (Speaker, Collins, Anson ,...) who didnt back in the day because the Hall had about 60 years of players accumulating.
<< <i>How does Biggio not get in? A 3000 hit club member who TMK was not associated with PEDs. The writers are a joke. Holier than thou, elitist a-holes if you ask me. >>
Does defense matter? Since he played the majority of his career at key defensive positions and all. Save that venom for guys who were completely jobbed like Whitaker and Bobby Grich (both comparable to Biggio). At least in their case, unlike Biggio, they weren't among, if not the worst defensive 2b ever. -67 fielding runs below the average 2B. Add in his stint as a horrendous catcher - opponents stole 140 bases in 169 tries (82.8% success rate) off of him...and he happened to be a terrible OFer (-36 Defensive Runs Saved) as well. 3000 hits doesn't do much for me when you played for 20 years including hanging around for 2 years past his expiration date - when he absolutely killed the Astros with his 246/.306/.422 & .251/.285/.381 to achieve 3000 hits. What really matters with Biggio is nearly 300 HRs, 668 2Bs, 1800 runs, +54 runs from baserunning, and a 1997 season (+9.3 WAR) that should have earned him more than a 4th place MVP vote. PEDs aside, he's deserving. but so were Grich and Whitaker....both rank ahead of Biggio in career WAR btw, Plus Alomar and Sandberg didn't get in on the first ballot either.
The guys that used PEDS, Bonds, Clemens, Palmero etc have some of the most staggering numbers in baseball history. I am sorry but steroids are not some magical potion that makes the ball fly over the fence. I have been into fitness, strength training etc r for the better part of a decade and consider myself pretty knowledgeable on the subject. I have Bottom line is these were outstanding players and dedicated athletes. Bonds HRs were not barely clearing the fence and Clemens was not exactly throwing a 70 mph fastball before roids. Steriods are not adding as significant a boost as many people think. The primary advantage is recovery when we are talking baseball. Sure they may be a little fresher on the sauce but come now. All time HR leader, no Hall. 7 time Cy Young, no Hall. 3000 hits and 500 HRs, no Hall. Seems silly. Its not the Vatican, its a museum. Best players belong.
I for one am glad that the writers saw through the accumulation of stats for stats sake in an era when PEDs not only bulked you up like Hulk Hogan but also kept you off the DL and made your age 37-42 years that much more productive. I sincerely believe that ARod gained 500 games not lost to injury due to his use of PEDs, and I am far from the only one thinking that Bagwell, Biggio and others may in the future be considerably more tied to PEDs than they are now.
- Bernie Williams and Kenny Lofton falling off the ballot in their first year. Maybe not considering Ted Simmons didn't get past year one either but I thought the Yankee mystique may have kept Bernie on.
- Didn't imagine Palmeiro under 10%. These writers are serious
- I had Edgar Martinez a little higher this year. Don't know why.
- I saw Clemens and Bonds getting higher counts. Not 75% but higher than 40%
- Shame for Biggio and to a lesser extent Morris
- Still don't get the case AGAINST Trammell
Looking to see if this affects prices paid for PSA 10 FU Clemens.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So Dale Murphy, being the 15th year on the ballot now basically means he has no chance ever getting in. >>
There's always the Veterans Committee. >>
I can see the purpose of the Veterans Committee when the Hall first began, but hasn't the Hall has been around long enough to get rid of the Veterans Committee? >>
But what would our veterans do then???
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Craig Biggio 388 (68.2%) 1
Jeff Bagwell 339 (59.6%) 3
Mike Piazza 329 (57.8%) 1
Lee Smith 272 (47.8%) 11
Roger Clemens 214 (37.6%) 1
Barry Bonds 206 (36.2%) 1
Larry Walker 123 (21.6%) 3
Fred McGriff 118 (20.7%) 4
Mark McGwire 96 (16.9%) 7
Don Mattingly 75 (13.2%) 13
Sammy Sosa 71 (12.5%) 1
Rafael Palmeiro 50 (8.8%) 3
Kenny Lofton 18 (3.2%) 1
Shawn Green 2 (0.4%) 1
Reggie Sanders 0 (0%) 1
Todd Walker 0 (0%) 1
Rondell White 0 (0%) 1
And Tim Raines because french people, Bill James, and my father love him.
1991 & 1992 Fleer Pro Visions
1952 Topps
What I never understood was the "well he's not a 1st ballot HOF'er" and then put him in the next year. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Either you are a HOF'r or your not. I agree, a lot of the writers are a bunch of tools.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
There are a few current players that are shoe-ins for a first ballot entry - Chipper, Pujols, Jeter and Mariano Rivera come to mind.
Just my two cents....
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Some would agree, but Koufax played 12 years and had 165 wins. Morris had 177 in his first 12 years. Both have 3 rings. Jack was a work horse who always seem to play his best in big games.
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
<< <i>The HOF is watered down enough already. If we chnage it to the Hall of Very Good, I'd vote for guys like Jack Morris.
Some would agree, but Koufax played 12 years and had 165 wins. Morris had 177 in his first 12 years. Both have 3 rings. Jack was a work horse who always seem to play his best in big games. >>
Morris couldn't carry Koufax' jock strap snd it is absurd really to even mention the two in same sentence. Career wins is arguably the most misleading stat in baseball as it relies mainly on the performance of those around you, ie run support. Compare Koufax' ERA and WHIP with Morris and you will see what I
mean.
There's also this misconception that Morris was perfection in the postseason. He certainly did have some outstanding performances but if you look at his total career stats, you will see he also was putrid in a couple of other postseasons as well.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
There are some players I would like to see get in, Gil Hodges for example, but since he has not been voted in, I can not say they have it wrong. Basicly it is the same for the VC, they have a high number minimum also.
Biggio did not get in first ballot. That's OK, we now know he is not a 1st ballot HOFer, no matter what your opinion is. He will probably get in next year and he will still be a HOFer, just not a 1st ballot HOFer, which is how we reconize the top tier HOFers.
My point, we all have opinions, just don't make them sound like they are the "only intelligent possibility" because they are not!
1) PEDs... blah, blah, blah! Since all we do is guess, speculate, etc. on these guys (Accept the admitted McGwire & the failed-test Palmeiro)... I'm guessing it's more likely than not that in some point in their careers the likes of Piazza, Bagwell, Biggio, Schilling used PEDs as well. It's sport & it's money... yes, they cheat... most, if not all, do in one way or another, at some point in their careers... if not their entire career. It's that way today, as it was during the Steriod Era, and as it was in the 50's, 60's, 70's... hell, probably even 100 years ago! Plus, we need to really think about calling it "cheating"... there was no rule (albeit it's illegal.. but so were non-prescription greenies, cocaine, etc.) against steriod use in baeball during the "Steroid" Era... so how was it cheating. I'm in the camp that doesn't care, it was the way of the times... I'm not going to penalize the players of that Era for it, after all, I'm also in the camp that way more used during that time than those that didn't.
2) I don't condone steriod use, but I really don't care if these guys used. I could go along with the common arguement that it sends the wrong message to kids in college, high school, younger! I was playing sports in the high school & younger stage... pre-Steriod Era in Baseball... and I sure as hell already knew about steriods. Did I use them, no. Did others I was aware of, sure. Was it done because pro athletes did it... maybe in some respect, but not really... it was about being better, stronger, faster than your competition. FACT: Steriods work! Steriods are a sports problem, not a baseball problem. It is what it is, and it was what it was! They were used, probably abused, and at the "pro" level, they probably were being used not by the minority... but rather the vast, vast majority. Some guys may have had monster numbers, but I certainly also believe so many probably used that it actually still created an even playing field. To not vote in Roger Clemens & Barry Bonds, neither of which I particularly care for but recognize as all-time greats (even before the Steriod Era)... well, to me I see that as simply irresponsible. This might get me some bashing, but it's something that's been in my mind for years... given my knowledge of roids when I played sports, in a time before the defined Steriod Era in baseball... clearly, roids were around in plenty... there was a pretty darn good pitcher still dominant in his late 30's, early 40's! Like all these guys, I have ZERO proof, but now I'm pretty darn inclined to also believe that Nolan Ryan was also probably a PED user! Seems like a stretch, I know... but IS IT???
3) The BBWA now wants to play moral/character police! Their very first induction class... All World DB Ty Cobb took home a larger percentage of votes than Babe Ruth!
4) JMO, but I think any DB BBWA member that simply returned a blank ballot should have his BBWA credentials revoked. It's just stupid, and spits in the face of the entire process. To say you couldn't find one person on that ballot, of at least 6-10 seriously deserving of consideration, to give a single vote... that is d-baggery at it's finest! I don't think the process needs an overhaul, but I would suggest one change. Instead of allowing a blank ballot return... give them the option, Yes vote for 1-to-10 names OR check the box that says "I deem no candidates worthy of Hall of Fame induction". Anything completely blank, like this year, is tossed out and not counted... and... When the results are posted, the HOF comittee also posted the Name & Affiliation of all voters who returned a ballot with the "No Candidates" box checked.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I am glad. I want it to be tougher to get into. >>
+2
<< <i>I had the opinion that Biggio & Bagwell might have gotten in this year. But you know what, my opinion doesn't matter, as it shouldn't. In fact, no one person's opinion matters, not even a BBWAA voter. What does matter is 75% of voters that vote for the same person. That is why, no matter what your opinion is, this system works. If your player is not in the HOF, it's because 75% did not vote for him & he does not deserve to be there, at least not yet. If a player is in the HOF, than he deserves to be there because 75% voted for him. A few voters can be wrong, but not 75%! >>
This logic baffles me!!!
Not Yet logic?!?!?! So, a guy retired for X number of years... deserves to be in the HOF 3, 4, 5 years down the road... but not this year???
Barry Bonds... I don't like the guy, actually despise him (mostly as a human being, not a ball player)... is a Hall of Famer if there ever has been one on the ballot in my lifetime. Clemens, don't like him either, but I don't despise him like I do Bonds... but, DITTO!
If they ever get in, which I'm almost certain they will... what was the point of their exclusion this year (forget the fact they weren't even close to 75%, which is idiotic to say the least)??? The BBWA members made a statement??? What statement??? If they ever let them in, which I believe they will, tells me the only statement they made in 2012/13 was that they felt it was their right to act "above" the game of baseball... the very game that gave them the opportunity (not "right") to be a part of the selection process to determine the best players (not people, the HOF is already filled with jerks, racists, drug users, cheaters, etc.) in the history of the game!
<< <i>
<< <i>I had the opinion that Biggio & Bagwell might have gotten in this year. But you know what, my opinion doesn't matter, as it shouldn't. In fact, no one person's opinion matters, not even a BBWAA voter. What does matter is 75% of voters that vote for the same person. That is why, no matter what your opinion is, this system works. If your player is not in the HOF, it's because 75% did not vote for him & he does not deserve to be there, at least not yet. If a player is in the HOF, than he deserves to be there because 75% voted for him. A few voters can be wrong, but not 75%! >>
This logic baffles me!!!
Not Yet logic?!?!?! So, a guy retired for X number of years... deserves to be in the HOF 3, 4, 5 years down the road... but not this year???
Barry Bonds... I don't like the guy, actually despise him (mostly as a human being, not a ball player)... is a Hall of Famer if there ever has been one on the ballot in my lifetime. Clemens, don't like him either, but I don't despise him like I do Bonds... but, DITTO!
If they ever get in, which I'm almost certain they will... what was the point of their exclusion this year (forget the fact they weren't even close to 75%, which is idiotic to say the least)??? The BBWA members made a statement??? What statement??? If they ever let them in, which I believe they will, tells me the only statement they made in 2012/13 was that they felt it was their right to act "above" the game of baseball... the very game that gave them the opportunity (not "right") to be a part of the selection process to determine the best players (not people, the HOF is already filled with jerks, racists, drug users, cheaters, etc.) in the history of the game! >>
There is no shame in being baffled!!!
IMO, Players are partly measured by how long it takes them to be inducted. A 1st rounder is probably better than a guy who makes it in his last round or is voted in by the VC. This can also help us compare players of different eras, at least to a degree. That is the logic behind why a player might be voted in a few years from now & not this year.
You, along with others, make a good case on why Bonds & Clemens should have been voted in this year. Unfortunely, you are not of the majority and only about 37% of the BBWAA voters agree with you. There are 2 sides to this debate and about 63% of the voters think there is some reason to keep them out. Also, don't be so sure they will ever get into the Hall. Both McGwire & Palmeiro's votes are going downward as each year passes.
<< <i>I thought Biggio would get in as well.
What I never understood was the "well he's not a 1st ballot HOF'er" and then put him in the next year. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Either you are a HOF'r or your not. I agree, a lot of the writers are a bunch of tools.
Mark >>
Was thinking the same thing today. 3000 hits should be in.
Is it safe to say that the veterans committee in 15 yrs. will be comprised of players from the steroid era? Allowing all the questionable players in.
Take just Barry Bonds for instance...7x MVP, all time HR leader, single season HR leader, Walks leader, etc... and he has several other records and he is not in the HoF.
It is a much larger problem for the HoF over time, and I believe that sooner or later, the Hall is going to have to take a stand and let some of these Guys in. IMHO, if you use, you loose. This 30 game suspension, 60 game suspension or whatever doesn't work. If baseball said enough is enough and said 1x only you get caught juicing, you are done...lifetime ban! Put a list of OTC drugs & prescription drugs out you can safely take and be done with it.
But again over time the HoF becomes unbalanced and a statistical joke.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
I weigh more then Jose Canseco did when he came into the minor leagues and if you put me next to Jose at his peak I would look like I am from Ethiopia.
No one can convince me that you do not have dramatically more power and bat speed with much larger muscles.
To transform your body from in his case 175 pounds to 255 pounds is not possible without anabolic steroids.
I played baseball for many years and one of the things that held me back was size and power. If you had added 30 pounds of muscle to me those long doubles that bounced against the fence would have soared past it for a home run.
All you have to do is see the major decline in the number of home runs since the scandal truly broke. I turn on the TV sometimes and watch a game for a little while and once more the players are returning to an average build of 175 pounds to 210 pounds. You don't see a lot of monsters anymore.
Just look at the older baseball cards many collect on this board and compare the physiques to cards from the mid 80's, then the late 80's, the 90's and the early 2000's. If you turn over cards from the mid 80's you will find Barry Bonds weighed 180 at 6'4, Don Mattingly 175, Jose Canseco 185, Mark McGwire 190. It is not humanly possible to gain that much muscle as an adult without help and it is no coincidence that their home run totals and RBI totals exploded.
(Mattingly was just used an example of a great player from the mid 80's)
All of these players were very good and steroids do not magically make you great but there is no doubt there numbers are dramatically inflated and in my opinion you can't even begin to compare 700+ home runs from Barry Bonds to Hank Aaron.
Pete Rose is arguably one of the best baseball players ever. He gambled on baseball and he is out. I think it should be the same for known steroid users. They actually altered the outcomes of the games and I think it is great that the Hall of Fame voters spoke. They do not deserve to be held in such high esteem.
<< <i>
<< <i>How does Biggio not get in? A 3000 hit club member who TMK was not associated with PEDs. The writers are a joke. Holier than thou, elitist a-holes if you ask me. >>
Does defense matter? Since he played the majority of his career at key defensive positions and all. Save that venom for guys who were completely jobbed like Whitaker and Bobby Grich (both comparable to Biggio). At least in their case, unlike Biggio, they weren't among, if not the worst defensive 2b ever. -67 fielding runs below the average 2B. Add in his stint as a horrendous catcher - opponents stole 140 bases in 169 tries (82.8% success rate) off of him...and he happened to be a terrible OFer (-36 Defensive Runs Saved) as well. 3000 hits doesn't do much for me when you played for 20 years including hanging around for 2 years past his expiration date - when he absolutely killed the Astros with his 246/.306/.422 & .251/.285/.381 to achieve 3000 hits. What really matters with Biggio is nearly 300 HRs, 668 2Bs, 1800 runs, +54 runs from baserunning, and a 1997 season (+9.3 WAR) that should have earned him more than a 4th place MVP vote. PEDs aside, he's deserving. but so were Grich and Whitaker....both rank ahead of Biggio in career WAR btw, Plus Alomar and Sandberg didn't get in on the first ballot either. >>
I agree that an argument can be made for Whitaker....But Bobby Grich? I gotta give ya a "Come on man!" on that one.
Grich was a nice player, and fan favorite, but not even close to being a HOFer IMO.
<< <i> It is not humanly possible to gain that much muscle as an adult without help and it is no coincidence that their home run totals and RBI totals exploded.
>>
No arguing that steroids are cheating and many very valid points your post. I would only say that an adult male whose job it is to train and perform on the athletic field can easily add 30-40 lbs of lean mass over the course of a career. There have been tremendous strides in nutrition and supplimentation over the last few decades. Strength and conditioning training has likewise evolved. These guys have access to the best trainers on the planet. I wouldn't point to size increases since the 70's as evidence, although Bonds' swollen skull makes me think HGH and insulin were involved.
<< <i>They do not deserve to be held in such high esteem. >>
that's one of the funniest things i've ever read here, and it's no reflection on you personally, but it's insidious to make such a statement after a period of time in which some of these men were held in the HIGHEST POSSIBLE ESTEEM during their playing days and record-setting performances....it's hypocritical to say now that they aren't worthy of esteem, respect, whatever, you don't just turn your back on your favorite source of entertainment once a different discovery gets exposed about them and they no longer fit the mold. stupid.
we loved watching the McGwire/Sosa battles, the Bonds home run chase, the Clemens comebacks, the televised madness, ESPN, Fox, etc.
what's different now? so they didn't win the Popularity Contest. they're all filthy rich and memorable. seriously, who's winning?
a bit of Kinks to sum it up.....i'm not a defender of the roiders, i love the game itself. but i can't stand hypocrisy.
Hey, hey, hey...
Give the people what they want
Well, it's been said before, the world is a stage
A different performance with every age.
Open the history book to any old page
Bring on the lions and open the cage.
Give the people what they want
You gotta give the people what they want
The more they get, the more they need
And every time they get harder and harder to please
The Roman promoters really did things right.
They needed a show that would clearly excite.
The attendance was sparse so they put on a fight
Threw the Christians to the lions, sold out every night......
When the home runs started flying off the bats I said the entire time that these guys were roiding and in a big way. All you had to do was look at them.
I have worked out with weights for a long time and NO ONE can put on 80 pounds of muscle as an adult without help.
There is no doubt that their have been advancements in training and suppliments but lets face it the ones that have been proven to work were actually steroids and get removed from the shelves.
There are freaks of nature like the Brock Lesnar's who were larger then everyone their age from grade school but tall lanky men do not transform their bodies in such a manner ever. Do a search for some of the old wrestlers such as Ivan Putski or Lex Luger and see what they look like now.
I will say it again they cheated. Whether or not the public or card collectors or sports writers thought highly of them is irrelavent.
Is it any coincidence that as you get older they lengthen the fence in little league baseball? Of course not.
to clarify, i believe that the court of public opinion has failed, in general, to establish proper grounds by which these choices can be made.
the hypocrisy rests at the feet of those who smothered and drooled over their heroes, took advantage of every opportunity to profit by their accomplishments, and now stand for righteousness and purity as it suits their needs.
no offense intended, fellow poster. all good.