<< <i>Biggio not getting in is a joke. The guy has a clean name and 3000 hits. Piazza was surprising too.
The guys that used PEDS, Bonds, Clemens, Palmero etc have some of the most staggering numbers in baseball history. I am sorry but steroids are not some magical potion that makes the ball fly over the fence. I have been into fitness, strength training etc r for the better part of a decade and consider myself pretty knowledgeable on the subject. I have Bottom line is these were outstanding players and dedicated athletes. Bonds HRs were not barely clearing the fence and Clemens was not exactly throwing a 70 mph fastball before roids. Steriods are not adding as significant a boost as many people think. The primary advantage is recovery when we are talking baseball. Sure they may be a little fresher on the sauce but come now. All time HR leader, no Hall. 7 time Cy Young, no Hall. 3000 hits and 500 HRs, no Hall. Seems silly. Its not the Vatican, its a museum. Best players belong. >>
Betting didn't help Pete rose's stats but it kept him out of the hall. Those guys broke the rules they need to face the consequences regardless of the performance impact. Rose deserves to get in before any of the PED crowd does imo
no Steve, i actually heard a rumor that one voter meant to choose Sosa, but a gnat flew into his eye as he was filling out the ballot, and he just shrugged and moved on.
<< <i>Has it occurred to anyone that the person that voted for Sele did so as a form of protest vote? >>
no it occurs to me a beat reporter who Sele was cooperative with gave him a vote. Just like every year when a player who isn't worthy receives one vote.
<< <i>How does Biggio not get in? A 3000 hit club member who TMK was not associated with PEDs. The writers are a joke. Holier than thou, elitist a-holes if you ask me. >>
Does defense matter? Since he played the majority of his career at key defensive positions and all. Save that venom for guys who were completely jobbed like Whitaker and Bobby Grich (both comparable to Biggio). At least in their case, unlike Biggio, they weren't among, if not the worst defensive 2b ever. -67 fielding runs below the average 2B. Add in his stint as a horrendous catcher - opponents stole 140 bases in 169 tries (82.8% success rate) off of him...and he happened to be a terrible OFer (-36 Defensive Runs Saved) as well. 3000 hits doesn't do much for me when you played for 20 years including hanging around for 2 years past his expiration date - when he absolutely killed the Astros with his 246/.306/.422 & .251/.285/.381 to achieve 3000 hits. What really matters with Biggio is nearly 300 HRs, 668 2Bs, 1800 runs, +54 runs from baserunning, and a 1997 season (+9.3 WAR) that should have earned him more than a 4th place MVP vote. PEDs aside, he's deserving. but so were Grich and Whitaker....both rank ahead of Biggio in career WAR btw, Plus Alomar and Sandberg didn't get in on the first ballot either. >>
I agree that an argument can be made for Whitaker....But Bobby Grich? I gotta give ya a "Come on man!" on that one.
Grich was a nice player, and fan favorite, but not even close to being a HOFer IMO. >>
I didn't say he was a HOFer. I said he's in the discussion along with Whitaker. But yes, one can easily make that case when a 2B posted a career OPS+ in line with Bench, Santo and Rickey Henderson during a pitcher's era. Oh and he was buried in AAA for 2 years during Davey Johnson's peak. So he lost two years of counting stats. Again, not saying he's a HOFer, but like Whitaker, and now Kenny Lofton, he deserved to be on the ballot for more than one year.
<< <i>I didn't say he was a HOFer. I said he's in the discussion along with Whitaker. But yes, one can easily make that case when a 2B posted a career OPS+ in line with Bench, Santo and Rickey Henderson during a pitcher's era. Oh and he was buried in AAA for 2 years during Davey Johnson's peak. So he lost two years of counting stats. Again, not saying he's a HOFer, but like Whitaker, and now Kenny Lofton, he deserved to be on the ballot for more than one year. >>
An argument can be made for a lot of players if you take one or two statistical categories and compare them to a random HOFer. By that logic, one could argue that Jason Kendall has a better WAR than Roy Campanella so he should be in the Hall. Does that make any sense?
<< <i>I didn't say he was a HOFer. I said he's in the discussion along with Whitaker. But yes, one can easily make that case when a 2B posted a career OPS+ in line with Bench, Santo and Rickey Henderson during a pitcher's era. Oh and he was buried in AAA for 2 years during Davey Johnson's peak. So he lost two years of counting stats. Again, not saying he's a HOFer, but like Whitaker, and now Kenny Lofton, he deserved to be on the ballot for more than one year. >>
An argument can be made for a lot of players if you take one or two statistical categories and compare them to a random HOFer. By that logic, one could argue that Jason Kendall has a better WAR than Roy Campanella so he should be in the Hall. Does that make any sense? >>
it would if the comp used made any sense. The only reason Kendall's WAR was higher was the result of a 5+ year longer career. (Campanella also didn't begin his MLB career until 26 for obvious reasons) Campanella's OPS+ was nearly 30 points higher.
<< <i>All you have to do is see the major decline in the number of home runs since the scandal truly broke. I turn on the TV sometimes and watch a game for a little while and once more the players are returning to an average build of 175 pounds to 210 pounds. You don't see a lot of monsters anymore. >>
If you read the fan graphs article you will see that more HR's were hit in 2012 than in 1998.
I want to point something out. I just turned 37 and have considered myself an athlete all my life. With what I do now, it's not easy on my body. I have to go to the medical clinic when things get tough. The doctor prescribes me medicine for the pain and to assist with inflamation. I have a trust in the doctor to give me what I need to heal. I dont research everything on the internet. Anyhow if a doctor prescribed me HGH, I would likely take it. (Unless it involves needles). My point is, my damn knees hurt, I'm getting old and I need the doctor to give me something.
<< <i>I didn't say he was a HOFer. I said he's in the discussion along with Whitaker. But yes, one can easily make that case when a 2B posted a career OPS+ in line with Bench, Santo and Rickey Henderson during a pitcher's era. Oh and he was buried in AAA for 2 years during Davey Johnson's peak. So he lost two years of counting stats. Again, not saying he's a HOFer, but like Whitaker, and now Kenny Lofton, he deserved to be on the ballot for more than one year. >>
An argument can be made for a lot of players if you take one or two statistical categories and compare them to a random HOFer. By that logic, one could argue that Jason Kendall has a better WAR than Roy Campanella so he should be in the Hall. Does that make any sense? >>
it would if the comp used made any sense. The only reason Kendall's WAR was higher was the result of a 5+ year longer career. (Campanella also didn't begin his MLB career until 26 for obvious reasons) Campanella's OPS+ was nearly 30 points higher. >>
Nothing personal, but to me comparing Bobby Grich to Bench or Henderson makes just as little sense as comparing Kendall to Campanella.
<< <i>I didn't say he was a HOFer. I said he's in the discussion along with Whitaker. But yes, one can easily make that case when a 2B posted a career OPS+ in line with Bench, Santo and Rickey Henderson during a pitcher's era. Oh and he was buried in AAA for 2 years during Davey Johnson's peak. So he lost two years of counting stats. Again, not saying he's a HOFer, but like Whitaker, and now Kenny Lofton, he deserved to be on the ballot for more than one year. >>
An argument can be made for a lot of players if you take one or two statistical categories and compare them to a random HOFer. By that logic, one could argue that Jason Kendall has a better WAR than Roy Campanella so he should be in the Hall. Does that make any sense? >>
it would if the comp used made any sense. The only reason Kendall's WAR was higher was the result of a 5+ year longer career. (Campanella also didn't begin his MLB career until 26 for obvious reasons) Campanella's OPS+ was nearly 30 points higher. >>
Nothing personal, but to me comparing Bobby Grich to Bench or Henderson makes just as little sense as comparing Kendall to Campanella. >>
that would be true if I was comparing Grich to Bench or Henderson...which I didn't. I compared Grich to Whitaker and Biggio. I said Grich had the same OPS+ as those respective players which is not disputable. You do understand that OPS+ is not the same metric as WAR, correct? WAR is a singular descriptive. There are multiple moving parts and it's not a perfect system. OPS or OPS+ do not leave room for interpretation like WAR does....other than those who believe that the on base component is more important than the slugging component. The + just incorporates the average run scoring environment for the era a given player played in.
The Hall is a joke. The sanctimonious, clubby, holier-than-thou BBWAA writers are a joke. Convicting guys like Biggio and Piazza who have no solid evidence against them?
The writers talk about integrity? What about Ty Cobb the unabashed racist who jumped into the stands once to fist-fight a handicapped fan?
Humans are flawed creatures. Often deeply so. If the Hall is a shrine or cathedral for only the pure and chaste and perfect, then there are some glaring issues with some of its current members-- which makes it a joke. If it's a Hall of "FAME" for players who reached the pinnacle of fame during their playing years for outstanding play on the field, then the absence of guys like Piazza and Biggio also make it a joke. Either way, it's a joke. And either way, were I a player, I would not give a flying fk about what some biased, sanctimonious, hypocritical, wanna-be player nerds think. I'd care more, if at all, about what the fans think and what my fellow players thought of my performance.
The fact that the players and fans lend so much credence to the hall is the real problem, in my opinion. When something is so irreparably broken and illogically run, I just try and pay it no mind. The same with the voted-on awards. We can all watch the game and look at the stats and make our own judgements. Yet for some reason, especially in our country, we are so obsessed with awards that are SUBJECTIVELY bestowed. Be it the MVP, the Hall, the Oscars, whatever. We let some others' opinions indelibly and forever alter our perceptions, and this is wrong.
Opinions are like a55hole5, everybody has one.
Winning the WS or a batting title or 300 K's in a season, these are achievements that defy subjectivity-- they are the only ones I care about.
Good sportsmanship/character is also something positive that defies subjectivity, I believe, and should be applauded as well as stats.
In the end, though, to give a collection of guys' opinions more weight than your own is asking for a headache.
I don't think you can use the analogy of Cobb's racism, however objectionable, with Clemens and Bonds using PEDs. There are many flawed characters in the HOF, but I have no problem excluding players like Clemens and Bonds who cheated to enhance their performances. In this case, the court of public opinion will decide the fate of these players and in time they may get in, but it won't be soon. And I have no issue with that.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think many are making a mistake when they try to compare PED's to spitting on a ball, corking a bat, pinetarring up a bat past the label, uppers, missing a tag & showing the umpire the ball as if you made the tag, etc...
PED's make you both stronger, faster, a better player & are illegal. I know uppers are illegal, but as far as performance, no different than a 5 Hour Energy drink. What has been has been done, MLB did nothing to stop it. But something can be done now & it is being done by the BBWAA. Anything less is not fair to all the players that were clean, it is not fair to all the previous players & record holders.
If you study the history, baseball players have always been, let's say, less than gentleman. So this isn't an issue or shouldn't be about how hypocritical the voters are, because we all know they too, make mistakes & have never put on a MLB uniform. But the PED users have crossed a line and they need to pay for it just as we would have to pay for a crime we comment.
Don't be too worried about Biggio, he will make it in next year. Just by the reaction on the board here, Biggio was not a for sure 1st rounder anyway.
I am not equating racism with PEDs... But I am saying they are both in violation of the character and integrity clause the BBWAA writers so often tout when denying the roid guys-- and more problematically the merely suspected roid guys.
Also, there is no doubt amphetamines/greenies do not enhance performance like steroids, but that is not exactly the issue. When one player used them in the past and a peer on the field did not, didn't the user have an unfair competitive advantage?
<< <i>I think many are making a mistake when they try to compare PED's to spitting on a ball, corking a bat, pinetarring up a bat past the label, uppers, missing a tag & showing the umpire the ball as if you made the tag, etc...
PED's make you both stronger, faster, a better player & are illegal. I know uppers are illegal, but as far as performance, no different than a 5 Hour Energy drink. What has been has been done, MLB did nothing to stop it. But something can be done now & it is being done by the BBWAA. Anything less is not fair to all the players that were clean, it is not fair to all the previous players & record holders.
If you study the history, baseball players have always been, let's say, less than gentleman. So this isn't an issue or shouldn't be about how hypocritical the voters are, because we all know they too, make mistakes & have never put on a MLB uniform. But the PED users have crossed a line and they need to pay for it just as we would have to pay for a crime we comment.
Don't be too worried about Biggio, he will make it in next year. Just by the reaction on the board here, Biggio was not a for sure 1st rounder anyway. >>
I agree with most of your points. The voters have spoken and even suspected PED abusers will be "punished". Fair or not, it's happening and we have to deal with it.
<< <i>I didn't say he was a HOFer. I said he's in the discussion along with Whitaker. But yes, one can easily make that case when a 2B posted a career OPS+ in line with Bench, Santo and Rickey Henderson during a pitcher's era. Oh and he was buried in AAA for 2 years during Davey Johnson's peak. So he lost two years of counting stats. Again, not saying he's a HOFer, but like Whitaker, and now Kenny Lofton, he deserved to be on the ballot for more than one year. >>
An argument can be made for a lot of players if you take one or two statistical categories and compare them to a random HOFer. By that logic, one could argue that Jason Kendall has a better WAR than Roy Campanella so he should be in the Hall. Does that make any sense? >>
it would if the comp used made any sense. The only reason Kendall's WAR was higher was the result of a 5+ year longer career. (Campanella also didn't begin his MLB career until 26 for obvious reasons) Campanella's OPS+ was nearly 30 points higher. >>
Nothing personal, but to me comparing Bobby Grich to Bench or Henderson makes just as little sense as comparing Kendall to Campanella. >>
that would be true if I was comparing Grich to Bench or Henderson...which I didn't. I compared Grich to Whitaker and Biggio. I said Grich had the same OPS+ as those respective players which is not disputable. You do understand that OPS+ is not the same metric as WAR, correct? WAR is a singular descriptive. There are multiple moving parts and it's not a perfect system. OPS or OPS+ do not leave room for interpretation like WAR does....other than those who believe that the on base component is more important than the slugging component. The + just incorporates the average run scoring environment for the era a given player played in. >>
So saying that (insert ANY non HOFer) has comparable (insert ANY baseball stat) numbers to (insert ANY HOFer) as an argument for why the non HOFer should get more consideration isn't a comparison? Sorry, my bad!
And please spare me the baseball statistics lesson. Gee whiz thanks for the pointers mister, I didn't know what the plus in OPS+ was before you 'splained it to me! The fact is I don't even think WAR should be considered a stat because of the "moving parts", and the "room for interpretation" it leaves. I only used it to further exaggerate my Campanella/Kendall point/joke/"comparison".
<< <i>I think many are making a mistake when they try to compare PED's to spitting on a ball, corking a bat, pinetarring up a bat past the label, uppers, missing a tag & showing the umpire the ball as if you made the tag, etc...
PED's make you both stronger, faster, a better player & are illegal. I know uppers are illegal, but as far as performance, no different than a 5 Hour Energy drink. What has been has been done, MLB did nothing to stop it. But something can be done now & it is being done by the BBWAA. Anything less is not fair to all the players that were clean, it is not fair to all the previous players & record holders.
If you study the history, baseball players have always been, let's say, less than gentleman. So this isn't an issue or shouldn't be about how hypocritical the voters are, because we all know they too, make mistakes & have never put on a MLB uniform. But the PED users have crossed a line and they need to pay for it just as we would have to pay for a crime we comment.
Don't be too worried about Biggio, he will make it in next year. Just by the reaction on the board here, Biggio was not a for sure 1st rounder anyway. >>
I agree with most of your points. The voters have spoken and even suspected PED abusers will be "punished". Fair or not, it's happening and we have to deal with it. >>
Agreed. That is the bottom line and I have no issue with that. Using anabolic steroids is far different from using greenies or uppers either as the latter do not enable you to drive balls from the warning track to over the wall, or from a lazy fly ball to a double off the wall the to the opposite field. I really don't care about character issues. For me, it's about inflating stats that aren't legitimate without artificial enhancement.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I am still having a hard time with keeping Bonds and Clemens out. Both had become dominant players very early in their careers well before it looked like they started taking steriods.
Are we just going to act like that era of Baseball never happened and not induct anyone except the fan favorites like Cal Ripken and Griffey junior?
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>I am still having a hard time with keeping Bonds and Clemens out. Both had become dominant players very early in their careers well before it looked like they started taking steriods.
Are we just going to act like that era of Baseball never happened and not induct anyone except the fan favorites like Cal Ripken and Griffey junior? >>
Yes, just think of it as if everyone in baseball in this era colluded w/ gamblers to bet on baseball, so they all deserve to be banned. Except for those fan favorite of course!
didn't they make yogi berra with his 3 MVPs and 10 world series rings ( as a player ) wait a year prior to induction ? if yes, then piazza can wait a year too...
didn't they make yogi berra with his 3 MVPs and 10 world series rings ( as a player ) wait a year prior to induction ? if yes, then piazza can wait a year too... >>
i wonder if Yogi were confronted with this information, he would say it's too crowded and no one should be inducted anymore.
<< <i>there was no rule (albeit it's illegal.. but so were non-prescription greenies, cocaine, etc.) against steriod use in baeball during the "Steroid" Era... so how was it cheating. >>
There was a rule. They were covered under a more general ban prior to the 2006 specific ban.
<< <i>3) The BBWA now wants to play moral/character police! Their very first induction class... All World DB Ty Cobb took home a larger percentage of votes than Babe Ruth! >>
Much of what you think you know about Ty Cobb has been proven false. Al Stump made up a whole lot of garbage about him and it's been accepted as fact ever since.
Bobby Grich has a much better HOF case than one might expect just working from memory. He had a career OPS+ of 125 - outstanding by pretty much any measure, especially outstanding when compared to other 2B, particularly from his era. Johnny Bench's was 126 and he was renowned as a slugger, to give a bit of perspective. Grich was an outstanding defensive 2B, best in the AL prior to Frank White, winning 4 straight Gold Gloves from 1973-76. 6-time All-Star. 2 top-10 MVP finishes. 224 career HR. Led the AL in HR, SLG, and OPS+ in 1981.
Is the HOF somehow incomplete because Grich isn't in? No. But he would be far from the worst guy in there (I know, not exactly a ringing endorsement).
<< <i> I know uppers are illegal, but as far as performance, no different than a 5 Hour Energy drink. >>
OMG not even in the same ballpark.[/q
I'm glad you mentioned this. As far as uppers, or what we use to call "whites", have you ever personally taken any? Why I ask is back in 1971, my senior year, I played football. A few of the guys took them before games and told me they will make you better. I tried them I beleive a couple of games. They made me jittery, loose consentraition, I did not like them at all except for the kind of good mood they put me in, so I never used them again. After knowing that, I watched the other guys & I swear they did not play better but worse. They thought they were playing better, but that was in their minds. My point is, not only do I think they are not comparable to PED's but I think they do not help at all or can even make you play worse. I hope others will add their comments regarding this.
Let's face it, the HALL has become a joke. They worry about steriods, but not about cheating (several pitchers have admitted to tainting the ball). If it's all about pure power and strength, then maybe the GM's should start recruiting olympic powerlifters to play baseball. While taking PED's does assist in some/many factors of one's health, it does not add to your skill of throwing, fielding, nor hitting. It may allow someone to play better if an injury or age catches up with a player, but does not mean a .220 hitter all of sudden hits .320 at age 40. It does not make your vision better, and it does not make throwing the a particular pitch better.
Maybe someone should create "An All-time Great Player"exhibit/building and just talk about and showcase the players that made/played the game better. Let's face it, without Sammy and Mark in the late 90's, baseball may be have the interest of Hockey right now. They both belong way before Ron Santo or Elston Howard or Barry Larkin, etc.
The sportswriters/panel who votes for these players probably have a rough time tying their own shoes much less ever hit a curve ball or throw a 90 mph fastball.
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i'm SO with you Jayson. as a writer amongst your peers, i pray you can convince them all to realize it's just a freekin building full of history.
<< <i>Biggio not getting in is a joke. The guy has a clean name and 3000 hits. Piazza was surprising too.
The guys that used PEDS, Bonds, Clemens, Palmero etc have some of the most staggering numbers in baseball history. I am sorry but steroids are not some magical potion that makes the ball fly over the fence. I have been into fitness, strength training etc r for the better part of a decade and consider myself pretty knowledgeable on the subject. I have Bottom line is these were outstanding players and dedicated athletes. Bonds HRs were not barely clearing the fence and Clemens was not exactly throwing a 70 mph fastball before roids. Steriods are not adding as significant a boost as many people think. The primary advantage is recovery when we are talking baseball. Sure they may be a little fresher on the sauce but come now. All time HR leader, no Hall. 7 time Cy Young, no Hall. 3000 hits and 500 HRs, no Hall. Seems silly. Its not the Vatican, its a museum. Best players belong. >>
Betting didn't help Pete rose's stats but it kept him out of the hall. Those guys broke the rules they need to face the consequences regardless of the performance impact. Rose deserves to get in before any of the PED crowd does imo
<< <i>Has it occurred to anyone that the person that voted for Sele did so as a form of protest vote? >>
no it occurs to me a beat reporter who Sele was cooperative with gave him a vote. Just like every year when a player who isn't worthy receives one vote.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How does Biggio not get in? A 3000 hit club member who TMK was not associated with PEDs. The writers are a joke. Holier than thou, elitist a-holes if you ask me. >>
Does defense matter? Since he played the majority of his career at key defensive positions and all. Save that venom for guys who were completely jobbed like Whitaker and Bobby Grich (both comparable to Biggio). At least in their case, unlike Biggio, they weren't among, if not the worst defensive 2b ever. -67 fielding runs below the average 2B. Add in his stint as a horrendous catcher - opponents stole 140 bases in 169 tries (82.8% success rate) off of him...and he happened to be a terrible OFer (-36 Defensive Runs Saved) as well. 3000 hits doesn't do much for me when you played for 20 years including hanging around for 2 years past his expiration date - when he absolutely killed the Astros with his 246/.306/.422 & .251/.285/.381 to achieve 3000 hits. What really matters with Biggio is nearly 300 HRs, 668 2Bs, 1800 runs, +54 runs from baserunning, and a 1997 season (+9.3 WAR) that should have earned him more than a 4th place MVP vote. PEDs aside, he's deserving. but so were Grich and Whitaker....both rank ahead of Biggio in career WAR btw, Plus Alomar and Sandberg didn't get in on the first ballot either. >>
I agree that an argument can be made for Whitaker....But Bobby Grich? I gotta give ya a "Come on man!" on that one.
Grich was a nice player, and fan favorite, but not even close to being a HOFer IMO. >>
I didn't say he was a HOFer. I said he's in the discussion along with Whitaker. But yes, one can easily make that case when a 2B posted a career OPS+ in line with Bench, Santo and Rickey Henderson during a pitcher's era. Oh and he was buried in AAA for 2 years during Davey Johnson's peak. So he lost two years of counting stats. Again, not saying he's a HOFer, but like Whitaker, and now Kenny Lofton, he deserved to be on the ballot for more than one year.
<< <i>I didn't say he was a HOFer. I said he's in the discussion along with Whitaker. But yes, one can easily make that case when a 2B posted a career OPS+ in line with Bench, Santo and Rickey Henderson during a pitcher's era. Oh and he was buried in AAA for 2 years during Davey Johnson's peak. So he lost two years of counting stats. Again, not saying he's a HOFer, but like Whitaker, and now Kenny Lofton, he deserved to be on the ballot for more than one year. >>
An argument can be made for a lot of players if you take one or two statistical categories and compare them to a random HOFer. By that logic, one could argue that Jason Kendall has a better WAR than Roy Campanella so he should be in the Hall. Does that make any sense?
<< <i>
<< <i>I didn't say he was a HOFer. I said he's in the discussion along with Whitaker. But yes, one can easily make that case when a 2B posted a career OPS+ in line with Bench, Santo and Rickey Henderson during a pitcher's era. Oh and he was buried in AAA for 2 years during Davey Johnson's peak. So he lost two years of counting stats. Again, not saying he's a HOFer, but like Whitaker, and now Kenny Lofton, he deserved to be on the ballot for more than one year. >>
An argument can be made for a lot of players if you take one or two statistical categories and compare them to a random HOFer. By that logic, one could argue that Jason Kendall has a better WAR than Roy Campanella so he should be in the Hall. Does that make any sense? >>
it would if the comp used made any sense. The only reason Kendall's WAR was higher was the result of a 5+ year longer career. (Campanella also didn't begin his MLB career until 26 for obvious reasons) Campanella's OPS+ was nearly 30 points higher.
<< <i>All you have to do is see the major decline in the number of home runs since the scandal truly broke. I turn on the TV sometimes and watch a game for a little while and once more the players are returning to an average build of 175 pounds to 210 pounds. You don't see a lot of monsters anymore. >>
If you read the fan graphs article you will see that more HR's were hit in 2012 than in 1998.
Fangraphs article
Thanks for posting that link.
Take a look at the explosion of home runs in 1996.
Even though the totals were up in 2012 like you cite the highest total was 44. It sounds like the bottom has come up and the top has come down.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I didn't say he was a HOFer. I said he's in the discussion along with Whitaker. But yes, one can easily make that case when a 2B posted a career OPS+ in line with Bench, Santo and Rickey Henderson during a pitcher's era. Oh and he was buried in AAA for 2 years during Davey Johnson's peak. So he lost two years of counting stats. Again, not saying he's a HOFer, but like Whitaker, and now Kenny Lofton, he deserved to be on the ballot for more than one year. >>
An argument can be made for a lot of players if you take one or two statistical categories and compare them to a random HOFer. By that logic, one could argue that Jason Kendall has a better WAR than Roy Campanella so he should be in the Hall. Does that make any sense? >>
it would if the comp used made any sense. The only reason Kendall's WAR was higher was the result of a 5+ year longer career. (Campanella also didn't begin his MLB career until 26 for obvious reasons) Campanella's OPS+ was nearly 30 points higher. >>
Nothing personal, but to me comparing Bobby Grich to Bench or Henderson makes just as little sense as comparing Kendall to Campanella.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I didn't say he was a HOFer. I said he's in the discussion along with Whitaker. But yes, one can easily make that case when a 2B posted a career OPS+ in line with Bench, Santo and Rickey Henderson during a pitcher's era. Oh and he was buried in AAA for 2 years during Davey Johnson's peak. So he lost two years of counting stats. Again, not saying he's a HOFer, but like Whitaker, and now Kenny Lofton, he deserved to be on the ballot for more than one year. >>
An argument can be made for a lot of players if you take one or two statistical categories and compare them to a random HOFer. By that logic, one could argue that Jason Kendall has a better WAR than Roy Campanella so he should be in the Hall. Does that make any sense? >>
it would if the comp used made any sense. The only reason Kendall's WAR was higher was the result of a 5+ year longer career. (Campanella also didn't begin his MLB career until 26 for obvious reasons) Campanella's OPS+ was nearly 30 points higher. >>
Nothing personal, but to me comparing Bobby Grich to Bench or Henderson makes just as little sense as comparing Kendall to Campanella. >>
that would be true if I was comparing Grich to Bench or Henderson...which I didn't. I compared Grich to Whitaker and Biggio. I said Grich had the same OPS+ as those respective players which is not disputable. You do understand that OPS+ is not the same metric as WAR, correct? WAR is a singular descriptive. There are multiple moving parts and it's not a perfect system. OPS or OPS+ do not leave room for interpretation like WAR does....other than those who believe that the on base component is more important than the slugging component. The + just incorporates the average run scoring environment for the era a given player played in.
The writers talk about integrity? What about Ty Cobb the unabashed racist who jumped into the stands once to fist-fight a handicapped fan?
Humans are flawed creatures. Often deeply so. If the Hall is a shrine or cathedral for only the pure and chaste and perfect, then there are some glaring issues with some of its current members-- which makes it a joke. If it's a Hall of "FAME" for players who reached the pinnacle of fame during their playing years for outstanding play on the field, then the absence of guys like Piazza and Biggio also make it a joke. Either way, it's a joke. And either way, were I a player, I would not give a flying fk about what some biased, sanctimonious, hypocritical, wanna-be player nerds think. I'd care more, if at all, about what the fans think and what my fellow players thought of my performance.
The fact that the players and fans lend so much credence to the hall is the real problem, in my opinion. When something is so irreparably broken and illogically run, I just try and pay it no mind. The same with the voted-on awards. We can all watch the game and look at the stats and make our own judgements. Yet for some reason, especially in our country, we are so obsessed with awards that are SUBJECTIVELY bestowed. Be it the MVP, the Hall, the Oscars, whatever. We let some others' opinions indelibly and forever alter our perceptions, and this is wrong.
Opinions are like a55hole5, everybody has one.
Winning the WS or a batting title or 300 K's in a season, these are achievements that defy subjectivity-- they are the only ones I care about.
Good sportsmanship/character is also something positive that defies subjectivity, I believe, and should be applauded as well as stats.
In the end, though, to give a collection of guys' opinions more weight than your own is asking for a headache.
excluding players like Clemens and Bonds who cheated to enhance their performances. In this case, the court of public opinion will decide the fate of these players
and in time they may get in, but it won't be soon. And I have no issue with that.
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PED's make you both stronger, faster, a better player & are illegal. I know uppers are illegal, but as far as performance, no different than a 5 Hour Energy drink. What has been has been done, MLB did nothing to stop it. But something can be done now & it is being done by the BBWAA. Anything less is not fair to all the players that were clean, it is not fair to all the previous players & record holders.
If you study the history, baseball players have always been, let's say, less than gentleman. So this isn't an issue or shouldn't be about how hypocritical the voters are, because we all know they too, make mistakes & have never put on a MLB uniform. But the PED users have crossed a line and they need to pay for it just as we would have to pay for a crime we comment.
Don't be too worried about Biggio, he will make it in next year. Just by the reaction on the board here, Biggio was not a for sure 1st rounder anyway.
I am not equating racism with PEDs... But I am saying they are both in violation of the character and integrity clause the BBWAA writers so often tout when denying the roid guys-- and more problematically the merely suspected roid guys.
Also, there is no doubt amphetamines/greenies do not enhance performance like steroids, but that is not exactly the issue. When one player used them in the past and a peer on the field did not, didn't the user have an unfair competitive advantage?
<< <i>I think many are making a mistake when they try to compare PED's to spitting on a ball, corking a bat, pinetarring up a bat past the label, uppers, missing a tag & showing the umpire the ball as if you made the tag, etc...
PED's make you both stronger, faster, a better player & are illegal. I know uppers are illegal, but as far as performance, no different than a 5 Hour Energy drink. What has been has been done, MLB did nothing to stop it. But something can be done now & it is being done by the BBWAA. Anything less is not fair to all the players that were clean, it is not fair to all the previous players & record holders.
If you study the history, baseball players have always been, let's say, less than gentleman. So this isn't an issue or shouldn't be about how hypocritical the voters are, because we all know they too, make mistakes & have never put on a MLB uniform. But the PED users have crossed a line and they need to pay for it just as we would have to pay for a crime we comment.
Don't be too worried about Biggio, he will make it in next year. Just by the reaction on the board here, Biggio was not a for sure 1st rounder anyway. >>
I agree with most of your points. The voters have spoken and even suspected PED abusers will be "punished". Fair or not, it's happening and we have to deal with it.
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<< <i>I didn't say he was a HOFer. I said he's in the discussion along with Whitaker. But yes, one can easily make that case when a 2B posted a career OPS+ in line with Bench, Santo and Rickey Henderson during a pitcher's era. Oh and he was buried in AAA for 2 years during Davey Johnson's peak. So he lost two years of counting stats. Again, not saying he's a HOFer, but like Whitaker, and now Kenny Lofton, he deserved to be on the ballot for more than one year. >>
An argument can be made for a lot of players if you take one or two statistical categories and compare them to a random HOFer. By that logic, one could argue that Jason Kendall has a better WAR than Roy Campanella so he should be in the Hall. Does that make any sense? >>
it would if the comp used made any sense. The only reason Kendall's WAR was higher was the result of a 5+ year longer career. (Campanella also didn't begin his MLB career until 26 for obvious reasons) Campanella's OPS+ was nearly 30 points higher. >>
Nothing personal, but to me comparing Bobby Grich to Bench or Henderson makes just as little sense as comparing Kendall to Campanella. >>
that would be true if I was comparing Grich to Bench or Henderson...which I didn't. I compared Grich to Whitaker and Biggio. I said Grich had the same OPS+ as those respective players which is not disputable. You do understand that OPS+ is not the same metric as WAR, correct? WAR is a singular descriptive. There are multiple moving parts and it's not a perfect system. OPS or OPS+ do not leave room for interpretation like WAR does....other than those who believe that the on base component is more important than the slugging component. The + just incorporates the average run scoring environment for the era a given player played in. >>
So saying that (insert ANY non HOFer) has comparable (insert ANY baseball stat) numbers to (insert ANY HOFer) as an argument for why the non HOFer should get more consideration isn't a comparison? Sorry, my bad!
And please spare me the baseball statistics lesson. Gee whiz thanks for the pointers mister, I didn't know what the plus in OPS+ was before you 'splained it to me! The fact is I don't even think WAR should be considered a stat because of the "moving parts", and the "room for interpretation" it leaves. I only used it to further exaggerate my Campanella/Kendall point/joke/"comparison".
You win. Booby Grich HOF 2014!!
<< <i>
<< <i>I think many are making a mistake when they try to compare PED's to spitting on a ball, corking a bat, pinetarring up a bat past the label, uppers, missing a tag & showing the umpire the ball as if you made the tag, etc...
PED's make you both stronger, faster, a better player & are illegal. I know uppers are illegal, but as far as performance, no different than a 5 Hour Energy drink. What has been has been done, MLB did nothing to stop it. But something can be done now & it is being done by the BBWAA. Anything less is not fair to all the players that were clean, it is not fair to all the previous players & record holders.
If you study the history, baseball players have always been, let's say, less than gentleman. So this isn't an issue or shouldn't be about how hypocritical the voters are, because we all know they too, make mistakes & have never put on a MLB uniform. But the PED users have crossed a line and they need to pay for it just as we would have to pay for a crime we comment.
Don't be too worried about Biggio, he will make it in next year. Just by the reaction on the board here, Biggio was not a for sure 1st rounder anyway. >>
I agree with most of your points. The voters have spoken and even suspected PED abusers will be "punished". Fair or not, it's happening and we have to deal with it. >>
Agreed. That is the bottom line and I have no issue with that. Using anabolic steroids is far different from using greenies or uppers either as the latter do not enable you to drive balls
from the warning track to over the wall, or from a lazy fly ball to a double off the wall the to the opposite field. I really don't care about character issues. For me, it's about inflating
stats that aren't legitimate without artificial enhancement.
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<< <i> I know uppers are illegal, but as far as performance, no different than a 5 Hour Energy drink. >>
OMG not even in the same ballpark.
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Are we just going to act like that era of Baseball never happened and not induct anyone except the fan favorites like Cal Ripken and Griffey junior?
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<< <i>I am still having a hard time with keeping Bonds and Clemens out. Both had become dominant players very early in their careers well before it looked like they started taking steriods.
Are we just going to act like that era of Baseball never happened and not induct anyone except the fan favorites like Cal Ripken and Griffey junior? >>
Yes, just think of it as if everyone in baseball in this era colluded w/ gamblers to bet on baseball, so they all deserve to be banned. Except for those fan favorite of course!
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didn't they make yogi berra with his 3 MVPs and 10 world series rings ( as a player ) wait a year prior to induction ?
if yes, then piazza can wait a year too...
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<< <i>re piazza,
didn't they make yogi berra with his 3 MVPs and 10 world series rings ( as a player ) wait a year prior to induction ?
if yes, then piazza can wait a year too... >>
i wonder if Yogi were confronted with this information, he would say it's too crowded and no one should be inducted anymore.
<< <i>there was no rule (albeit it's illegal.. but so were non-prescription greenies, cocaine, etc.) against steriod use in baeball during the "Steroid" Era... so how was it cheating. >>
There was a rule. They were covered under a more general ban prior to the 2006 specific ban.
<< <i>3) The BBWA now wants to play moral/character police! Their very first induction class... All World DB Ty Cobb took home a larger percentage of votes than Babe Ruth! >>
Much of what you think you know about Ty Cobb has been proven false. Al Stump made up a whole lot of garbage about him and it's been accepted as fact ever since.
Tabe
Is the HOF somehow incomplete because Grich isn't in? No. But he would be far from the worst guy in there (I know, not exactly a ringing endorsement).
Tabe
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<< <i> I know uppers are illegal, but as far as performance, no different than a 5 Hour Energy drink. >>
OMG not even in the same ballpark.[/q
I'm glad you mentioned this. As far as uppers, or what we use to call "whites", have you ever personally taken any? Why I ask is back in 1971, my senior year, I played football. A few of the guys took them before games and told me they will make you better. I tried them I beleive a couple of games. They made me jittery, loose consentraition, I did not like them at all except for the kind of good mood they put me in, so I never used them again. After knowing that, I watched the other guys & I swear they did not play better but worse. They thought they were playing better, but that was in their minds. My point is, not only do I think they are not comparable to PED's but I think they do not help at all or can even make you play worse. I hope others will add their comments regarding this.
<< <i>... but in baseball, 60 and 755 mean the world to us and always will, notwithstanding 73 and 762 >>
What PED was Maris using?
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<< <i>... but in baseball, 60 and 755 mean the world to us and always will, notwithstanding 73 and 762 >>
What PED was Maris using?
Maris used performance-enhancing dregs (expansion pitchers).
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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Maybe someone should create "An All-time Great Player"exhibit/building and just talk about and showcase the players that made/played the game better. Let's face it, without Sammy and Mark in the late 90's, baseball may be have the interest of Hockey right now. They both belong way before Ron Santo or Elston Howard or Barry Larkin, etc.
The sportswriters/panel who votes for these players probably have a rough time tying their own shoes much less ever hit a curve ball or throw a 90 mph fastball.
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