BU Roll find: 1943D DDO
rmpsrpms
Posts: 1,967 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have been accumulating BU Wheat Cent rolls for a couple years now without going through them, and it was getting out of hand so I decided to do some variety searching. First two rolls had no significant varieties, though they were nice choice rolls. Third one I picked was a half-roll of 1943-D Steel Cents in a clear screwtop half-tube. By the way, anyone know where can I get a supply of the clear screwtop "Tomken" brand tubes? Anyway, first coin was a "doubled eye" DDO listed on Coppercoins as 1DO-002. Second coin was another 1DO-002! This is why I love un-searched BU rolls, because if they have any varieties in them, they often have multiples. Then I looked at the third coin, and it was a CONECA DDO 1-O-IV, a very cool DDO. I usually am best at finding those Doubled Dies that show up on the date, since am looking for RPMs there anyway. And this one shows strong doubling, especially on the "9". Here's a pic of one of the DDO 1-O-IV's. Turns out there were 14 of them in that half-roll...
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BTW, phenomonal picture ;-)
"La Vostra Nonna Ha Faccia Del Fungo"
1943D-1DO-003
confirm with 4 diagnostic markers. 2obv and 2rev
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Here's the link to the reference on Coppercoins...
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1943&die_id=1943d1do003&die_state=mds
http://macrocoins.com
"La Vostra Nonna Ha Faccia Del Fungo"
<< <i>.
1943D-1DO-003
confirm with 4 diagnostic markers. 2obv and 2rev
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Yep, all confirmed. Die state matches the Coppercoins MDS photos.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>Cool, then i stand corrected...your photo looks more 2 dimensional than the coppercoins website photo....Congrats on your find
Yes, good catch, and an unfortunate consequence of the lighting. For some reason I could not capture both the doubling inside the 9 AND the doubling on the right side of the 9 with simple directional lighting and had to resort to a ring light, which plays havoc with shadows and depth perception.
http://macrocoins.com
I love BU roll searching and have found many nice varieties, not to mention the fun factor,
Nice coin.
Great pic
<< <i>To me it appears to be shelf doubling, and just because supposedly matches a known ddo website doesn't impress me. SO if you are able to please explain why this wouldn't be called shelf doubling, since it appears to very much look like such. thanks >>
Determining strike doubling vs die doubling is fairly simple. In strike doubling, both die and coin have normal feature size, and the additional shallow strike makes the feature appear SMALLER. In die doubling, the additional impression by the hub on the working die makes the feature on the die BIGGER than it should be, and this is them impressed on the coin during a normal strike. Notice on this coin that the "main" 9 looks normal and is correctly-sized. The "extra" portions of the 9 extend well beyond the main 9 and thus could not be simply flattened areas of the main 9 as would happen with strike doubling.
http://macrocoins.com
for those that have doubts about shelf/machine/hub doubling and differentiating which is which; i will say understanding/recognizing the difference comes from experience and knowledge plain and simple. there are many guides available including in archived posts on this forum that clearly explain and show with examples the vast differences between most strike/machine vs hub doubling. there are some examples that appear to be in between and even many coins exhibit BOTH strike/machine and hub doubling.
for any doubters and/or underexperienced i recommend reading and studying the following, although i don't promise everyone has the grey matter to comprehend it all:
great explanation of doubling. - i give this read a 10 out of 10 including the links in the reading.
more reading
more reading
anyone with a desire to learn and not just contradict i highly recommend reading the following as well:
cherrypicker's guide vol II 4th edition appendix A starting at page 204. anyone that studies just this appendix A at length should get an extreme level of comfort for the differences in real vs strike doubling. if you study this at length and view many many examples of each and still don't get it, may i recommend this as your next hobby.
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<< <i>Seems we should require more before giving something official DD status. >>
I concur. That is micro miniscule. It does not dampen the fact that you're happy with it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Seems we should require more before giving something official DD status. >>
I concur. That is micro miniscule. It does not dampen the fact that you're happy with it. >>
Actually, this is a fairly strong Doubled Die. Most of the listed varieties show a closer spread. Maybe you're just used to looking at the "big ones" like the 55, 72, etc.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>How did you take that fantastic photo? >>
That was taken with a Canon XS (10MP) and a Nikon 4x 0.1NA objective. Lighting was with a 12-spot fiber optic ring light with one of the spots blocked to give the right shadow detail. To get reasonable sharpness required a 6-image stack.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>Seems we should require more before giving something official DD status. >>
What is this, the Olympic Voting Committee? Folks, it's a minor doubled die. The guy found something and felt compelled to share. Makes the hobby interesting, agree?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i>Thanks, I have read all there is of the def's of shelf vs dd, and I cannot believe this is called a ddo. I also can't believe tha tif it were a true ddo it would even matter. At some point the experts that write the books on all these die-agnostics should have a bar that they have to raise high enough for there to be value in whether it should be called a ddo and not a ddo just because an electron microscope at 250x sees something of s shadowy form on the surfaces of planet jupiter and are trying to show they have found water......this is just crazy. it reminds of Snow's millions of overdates/doubled dates that remind of what is going on the darkside of the moon. Whose eyes should be able to see this crap, everyone's or just those that want to see this stuff.
it is not for everyone, i'll give you that. you have to understand it isn't completely about numismatics. it seems to be one of those either you get it or you don't type of things. i could explain most of all what encompasses all of this but i deem explaining it moot at this point.
seeing as how you've spent more on coins the the GDP of some small countries, i figured you'd be more empathetic to the obsessiveness of others and their respective areas.
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<< <i>Thanks, I have read all there is of the def's of shelf vs dd, and I cannot believe this is called a ddo. I also can't believe tha tif it were a true ddo it would even matter. At some point the experts that write the books on all these die-agnostics should have a bar that they have to raise high enough for there to be value in whether it should be called a ddo and not a ddo just because an electron microscope at 250x sees something of s shadowy form on the surfaces of planet jupiter and are trying to show they have found water......this is just crazy. it reminds of Snow's millions of overdates/doubled dates that remind of what is going on the darkside of the moon. Whose eyes should be able to see this crap, everyone's or just those that want to see this stuff.
Wow, tough crowd when it comes to varieties. I have a fairly high bar when it comes to what I would publish and what I consider major vs minor. Usually if a variety can be seen at 7x, I consider it significant and this one can easily be seen with a 7x loupe.
http://macrocoins.com
...i guess some would only be convinced if it were slabbed.
<< <i>I guess you can say I am knocking/questioning the validity of the expert calling these as something that it isn't. These ghostly apparations imho ruin the hobby for variety collectors like myself who can't see the variety. The finder did good work, sure hop ehis eyes are ok after the find, but it is thw source of the varity attribution that I question.To me it is a lot about nothing, I sure hope no one pays a premium for these ddo's. Bottomline for my time and money I wanna see some metal
Long ago I bought a nice stereo microscope to make my roll searching for varieties easier. Using a high-power loupe is just too much work and is hard on the eyes. With the microscope, I can scan the obverse and reverse of every coin in a BU roll in 10 minutes, and not get any eye strain at all
There are a lot of "classes" of doubled dies, and some tend to be far more dramatic than others. All are numismatically interesting, and many do indeed command a big premium even if they are minor.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>There are a lot of "classes" of doubled dies, and some tend to be far more dramatic than others. All are numismatically interesting, and many do indeed command a big premium even if they are minor. >>
including that darn 1972 ddo #4 in ms68 red i've been looking for
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<< <i>
<< <i>There are a lot of "classes" of doubled dies, and some tend to be far more dramatic than others. All are numismatically interesting, and many do indeed command a big premium even if they are minor. >>
including that darn 1972 ddo #4 in ms68 red i've been looking for
. >>
I'm with you. I've been so disappointed with the all the 66's and 67's.
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There are a lot of "classes" of doubled dies, and some tend to be far more dramatic than others. All are numismatically interesting, and many do indeed command a big premium even if they are minor. >>
including that darn 1972 ddo #4 in ms68 red i've been looking for
. >>
I'm with you. I've been so disappointed with the all the 66's and 67's.
Lance. >>
i'll trade you a #1 in pcgs 66 rd for a #4 in pcgs 66 rd. the #1 is spread really far apart and pretty!
heck i'll even throw in free shipping
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Pics aren't great but anyway
Here's another 43-D, pretty sure this one is Die-9:
And another 43-D, might be Die-8:
(I think the notch in the lower part of B is not related to being a DDO but the rest is)
This one might be 43-P Die-2 or something similar:
<< <i>I Hey, I am not knocking the finder, I am opining that what he found is a listed DDO that is documented but that maybe the bar should be raised on these, I guess you can say I am knocking/questioning the validity of the expert calling these as something that it isn't. These ghostly apparations imho ruin the hobby for variety collectors like myself who can't see the variety. The finder did good work, sure hop ehis eyes are ok after the find, but it is thw source of the varity attribution that I question.To me it is a lot about nothing, I sure hope no one pays a premium for these ddo's. Bottomline for my time and money I wanna see some metal >>
Not every DDO is a 1955 DDO.
I once found a previously unconfirmed 1869 MPD Two Cent that was best seen on a high grade coin. My coin happened to be MS66. I sent it to JT Stanton for confirmation, which he did. The MPD had previously been recognized, except for the 3rd repunched 1. It wasn't a rare or scare MPD, none-the-less, it was a MPD.
You've got to have good eyes, patience, and a microscope helps.
It's what makes variety hunting fun.
...here's the number 4 72 DDO