multi-denominational clashed die refuted by Kevin Flynn

kevinj · December 22, 2012 1:06AM

I am just doing the final edits to my book, Off-Center and Multi-Denominational Clashed Dies

Can't believe how wrong I was.

There were 6 known multi denominational clashed dies, 4 in 1857, the 1864 Two cent reverse clash with an Indian,
and 1870 Shield nickel obv clashed with an Indian cent obv

On the coin, the Indian faces left, on the working die it would be to the right, in reverse.

The easiest way to see this is to use a notebook, lay the obverse on one side, draw the image,
lay the reverse on the next page, draw the image, when you close the notebook, you see how
the pages, representing the working dies close and make the coin.

Whether the Indian cent obv is in the hammer or anvil position, it would have to be facing right on the coin.
On the shield nickel it is facing left. It is impossible, no matter how you rotate, change the position, for it to be clashed
and facing left.

Secondly, the clashed image on the coin does not follow the shape and contour of the profile of the Indian.
If the chin is on the bottom left, it should come up to the bottom of the nose, go outward for the bottom of the nose,
then inward and up for the nose and head dress. It goes outward.

Not sure what it is, but can prove what it is not.

Let me know if any feedback

Thanks
Kevin
kevinjflynn88@yahoo.com

LanceNewmanOCC · December 22, 2012 3:39AM

.
i'll try not to stir too much debate here with my simple inquiries.

if in fact that coin designs start out quite large and are reduced in size during various states of the die creation process. the design goes from negative to positive during this process. if the main die (master?) is the one used to strike (working?) dies then the master is positive and the working are negative. it is possible to surmise than during the final stages of die creation going from positive to negative there is the slight possibility that some are facing the opposite of their normal direction? i'm not really familiar with the brockage creation process but doesn't that give some validity to claims that dies can be reversed for whatever reason during whatever process, meaning that there is a possibility they existed giving claims to reversed clashes and also somewhat explaining brockages? i mean with all the various errors that were made, it seems valid that just as many errors could happen during the die creation process that allow for a small percentage of anomalies, no?

i dunno, food for thought.

edited to add. with your comments about the dies only being able to face one direction no matter how you rotate them, isn't it possible during the creation process that mixed dies were clashed somehow just like it is possible to mix up the hammer and anvil dies for coin striking?; yes very rare but still possible and probable i would say.

edited to add:

<< Whether the Indian cent obv is in the hammer or anvil position, it would have to be facing right on the coin.
On the shield nickel it is facing left. It is impossible, no matter how you rotate, change the position, for it to be clashed
and facing left. >>

this would be possible if the indian obv was rotated 180 degrees, no? or the other die 180 degrees.
.

LanceNewmanOCC · December 22, 2012 4:23AM

.
here are some mock-ups just for visual display.

ProofArtworkonCircs · December 22, 2012 1:03PM

I am sort of hitchhiking on Lance's comments.

These cross denomination coins were part of somebody at the mint doing hanky panky. Could he have tried clashing a die and a hub together? That would explain the head facing the wrong way. In a normal clash of die to die it is the fields that hit. On a hub die clash it would be the relief design against the field. Would that look different than a regular clash?

EagleEye · December 23, 2012 12:03AM

On the 1870 Shield nickel, the Indian clash is upside down in relation to the shield, the face is facing left. This is as it should be. If the dies were rotated so that they are medallically aligned, as they are on all the 1857 clashed dies and the 1864 two cent clash, then the portrait would be facing to the right - opposite from the image seen on the coins. This is entirely as it should be. I think you should rethink your claim before you publish.

RichieURich · December 23, 2012 12:37AM

<< On the 1870 Shield nickel, the Indian clash is upside down in relation to the shield, the face is facing left. This is as it should be. If the dies were rotated so that they are medallically aligned, as they are on all the 1857 clashed dies and the 1864 two cent clash, then the portrait would be facing to the right - opposite from the image seen on the coins. This is entirely as it should be. I think you should rethink your claim before you publish. >>

I agree with Mr. Snow. If it isn't a clash, then why do the composite photos match what the coin looks like?

kevinj · December 23, 2012 2:41AM

Thanks everyone, I need to do some overlays with the upside down left facing Indian with the obv shield.

When I first looked at this, I assumed the chin was on the bottom left and the outline of the feathers on the bottom right.
From this perspective, the clash outline on the left extends up to far to the left, no outline to the nose.

I considered an upside down profile, I thought the clash outline from the shield edge up to the left to the corner was to long to be the nose,
and why the if upside down, the top right corner of that would then go at a 90 degree angle down to the left.

If looking at the normal upright photo, if this line extending from the bottom corner to the right is part of the banner with LIBERTY,
it should be at the same height of the field, or the highest point of the working die, and the first to touch the opposite working die.
In examining a coin, none of the LIBERTY, or area above or below is at the level of the field.

Thanks again
Kevin

Unknown · December 23, 2012 2:56AM

This content has been removed.

CaptHenway · December 23, 2012 3:07AM

<< On the 1870 Shield nickel, the Indian clash is upside down in relation to the shield, the face is facing left. This is as it should be. If the dies were rotated so that they are medallically aligned, as they are on all the 1857 clashed dies and the 1864 two cent clash, then the portrait would be facing to the right - opposite from the image seen on the coins. This is entirely as it should be. I think you should rethink your claim before you publish. >>

What Rick says. No mystery here.
TD

P.S.: Kevin, why not post pictures of it here for those people unfamiliar with the variety?

kevinj · December 23, 2012 3:09AM

<< .
here are some mock-ups just for visual display.
>>

Lance,

Nice overlays

Can you take the top left one and overlay onto the obverse of a shield nickel

Thanks
Kevin

LanceNewmanOCC · December 23, 2012 4:50AM

<< Can you take the top left one and overlay onto the obverse of a shield nickel
Thanks
Kevin >>

sure and this time i'll make them proportionally correct. my last ones show a indian cent as large as a shield nickel.
.

LanceNewmanOCC · December 23, 2012 5:34AM

.
here are the specs for the dimensions of these images

2012 redbook states

shield nickel diameter 20.5mm
indian cent type irrelevant 19mm

so the indian cent has .9268% of the diameter of the shield nickel

the shield nickel image i am using is 684x684 pixels. so the multiplier is as follows 684x.9268 giving 633.9312. so the indian cent image needs to be 633x633 as my program doesn't allow for the decimal extension.

i need an image of a clash to line up to properly otherwise i am simply placing one image randomly on top of another, so these may not reflect the actual clashing referenced in the OP.

LanceNewmanOCC · December 23, 2012 5:39AM

.
a short but great read on off-center clashing, imo

edited to add:

shieldnickels.net - MAD Mules

maddieclashes.com - MAD Mules

if anyone has a high-res image for the 1870 5c MAD 1c, i would appreciate the use of the image. i have one but it isn't quite sufficient.
.

CaptHenway · December 23, 2012 6:16AM

<< .
a short but great read on off-center clashing, imo

edited to add:

shieldnickels.net - MAD Mules

maddieclashes.com - MAD Mules

if anyone has a high-res image for the 1870 5c MAD 1c, i would appreciate the use of the image. i have one but it isn't quite sufficient.
. >>

Thank you for posting the links. The pictures show that everything is just as long-ago explained.

We still don't know how or why any of these muled clashings came to happen, though theories abound, but they are fun to look at.

TD

howards · December 23, 2012 6:55AM

<< 
i need an image of a clash to line up to properly otherwise i am simply placing one image randomly on top of another, so these may not reflect the actual clashing referenced in the OP.
>>

Lance,

I have multiple images of this clash. I'd be happy to give you use of any of them if I can have use of the overlay that you create.

Would be easier to transmit images via private email. My email address is available on my website in my sig.

LanceNewmanOCC · December 23, 2012 8:04AM

<< I have multiple images of this clash. I'd be happy to give you use of any of them if I can have use of the overlay that you create. >>

i am a big believer in dissemination of knowledge, so any images i post need not have permissions for use, if any legal problems arise from the use of those images, we'll deal with that bridge then in the unlikely instance(s). this includes people using my images to help sell their items, although not an optimal way to do business.

i (we) come this far because people choose greatness over pettiness and the ripples left behind from people that choose to live their lives that way allow the rest of us to benefit and i know i wouldn't be 1/10 of what i am today without all those philanthropic ripples many others have sent out and i owe the house in a big way and intend to pay that goodness forward by doing the same thing.

so feel free to use my images wherever they may be, i'll just cross my fingers they are used for positivity from whomever may use them.
.

EagleEye · December 23, 2012 8:30AM

DieClash · December 23, 2012 8:46AM

Thanks for sharing the image Rick!

This is the second thread in a week that has brought great new insights into Numismatics for me. I know I haven't been posting as much in the past year. But not so long ago alot of the topics here fell and still fall into the lame realm. But this is a real quality post.

Thanks for sharing!

Cheers!

Kirk

EDITED: Insight not incite, dummy

LanceNewmanOCC · December 23, 2012 8:49AM

<< EDITED: Insight not incite, dummy

>>

you're probably not far off still as many posts/threads in this forum that have provided insight have simultaneously incited!

although i'm sure i haven't partaken in any of them

.

kevinj · December 23, 2012 10:54AM

<< .
here are the specs for the dimensions of these images
2012 redbook states >>

I am convinced, overlay matches perfectly to the clashing.

Can I use the image on the right for the book?

If it is ok, can you send me at kevinjflynn88@yahoo.com

Thanks
kevin

stealer · December 23, 2012 11:53AM

<< 

<< .
here are the specs for the dimensions of these images
2012 redbook states >>

I am convinced, overlay matches perfectly to the clashing.

Can I use the image on the right for the book?

If it is ok, can you send me at kevinjflynn88@yahoo.com

Thanks
kevin >>

I'm confused, are you writing a book on alleged "multi-denominational" clashes?

kevinj · December 23, 2012 12:00PM

<< I'm confused, are you writing a book on alleged "multi-denominational" clashes? >>

My book is on off-center and multi denominational clashed dies.

Goal is to cover each variety which is believed to be the above, determine if it is or is not.
Also one of the primary goals is to figure out how they happened.

Kevin

LanceNewmanOCC · December 23, 2012 12:03PM

<< Can I use the image on the right for the book?

If it is ok, can you send me at kevinjflynn88@yahoo.com

Thanks
kevin >>

you sure can but i think we still have a couple steps yet to go.

1. determine what type indian clashed (1,2,3) and me getting a high-res example to line up my images with (i am waiting for one/some now, but will only use them for alignment purposes). i mean if it is going to go into publication, may as do it right.

I may just provide 3 images, one for each type indian and you can use whichever you prefer.

also something just occurred to me, I can try to do a double overlay outline where both coins only show the outlines

. i bet that would look quite interesting.
.

DeliaBug · December 23, 2012 12:44PM

I just love this board.

CaptHenway · December 23, 2012 1:19PM

<< 

<< I'm confused, are you writing a book on alleged "multi-denominational" clashes? >>

My book is on off-center and multi denominational clashed dies.

Goal is to cover each variety which is believed to be the above, determine if it is or is not.
Also one of the primary goals is to figure out how they happened.

Kevin >>

I hope you recognize my "Midnight Minter" theory as at least a possibility for the 1857's.

I can tell you when the first multi-denominational clash mark was identified as such. Though Jim Johnson had published the half dollar clash marks on the cent in Collectors Clearinghouse once or twice, nobody knew what they were.

At the combined error meeting at the 1977 ANA convention in Atlanta, I was sitting next to Bill Fivaz and he was showing me his cherrypicks from the show. One of them was a high-grade piece, and after I looked at it for a while the design clicked in my head and I told Bill "those are clash marks from a Liberty Seated die." It would be safe to say that he was surprised. Later we compared it to a Seated half and determined that that was the denomination of the other die. Bill then went on to find the quarter clashmarks now that he knew what to look for.

TD

kevinj · December 24, 2012 12:13AM

<< 

<< Can I use the image on the right for the book?

If it is ok, can you send me at kevinjflynn88@yahoo.com

Thanks
kevin >>

you sure can but i think we still have a couple steps yet to go.

1. determine what type indian clashed (1,2,3) and me getting a high-res example to line up my images with (i am waiting for one/some now, but will only use them for alignment purposes). i mean if it is going to go into publication, may as do it right.

I may just provide 3 images, one for each type indian and you can use whichever you prefer.

also something just occurred to me, I can try to do a double overlay outline where both coins only show the outlines

. i bet that would look quite interesting.
. >>

Tried to upload photos here, could not for some reason.

I can email you the photos, just send me an address.

I also have a AU55 specimen in a ANACS holder if that would work better.

Can you create overlays for the other multidenomination clashes?
Twenty Dollar Gold obverse over 1857 Flying Eagle cent obv
Liberty Seated Half Dollar obverse over 1857 Flying Eagle cent obv
Liberty Seated Quarter reverse over 1857 Flying Eagle cent rev
1857 Flying Eagle cent rev over Liberty Seated quarter reverse
Indian cent obverse over Two cent reverse

Thanks
Kevin

kevinj · December 24, 2012 12:22AM

<< I hope you recognize my "Midnight Minter" theory as at least a possibility for the 1857's.
I can tell you when the first multi-denominational clash mark was identified as such. Though Jim Johnson had published the half dollar clash marks on the cent in Collectors Clearinghouse once or twice, nobody knew what they were.
At the combined error meeting at the 1977 ANA convention in Atlanta, I was sitting next to Bill Fivaz and he was showing me his cherrypicks from the show. One of them was a high-grade piece, and after I looked at it for a while the design clicked in my head and I told Bill "those are clash marks from a Liberty Seated die." It would be safe to say that he was surprised. Later we compared it to a Seated half and determined that that was the denomination of the other die. Bill then went on to find the quarter clashmarks now that he knew what to look for.
TD >>

Tom,

I did analyze the midnight minter theory, George was the foreman of the engraver room would have access to the dies, his son Theodore was the night watchman, would probably have access to the presses.
Theodore was known to be selling patterns and such on the outside, believe they were the ones who struck the 1804 Type II. I concluded that they were not the cause and effect of these. They were profit
motivated, none of these were known to have been sold and saved for a profit, why leave evidence around which would point to them. Of course, I have no proof, for or against that they did the clashings,
just my belief based upon what we know.

I you would like to include your theory, I will include it in the book.

Kevin

EagleEye · December 24, 2012 12:31AM

Moldnut · December 24, 2012 12:43AM

I own the NGC MS60 Seated Quarter with the clash of the Flying Eagle. You are more than welcome to it if it helps you out.

kevinj · December 24, 2012 12:54AM

Hi Rick,

You were going to send me your theories on the clashings to be included in the book,
I need in a word format, images in the doc, but need them separate so that I can include them in the PageMaker docs

Thanks
Kevin

kevinj · December 24, 2012 1:01AM

<< I own the NGC MS60 Seated Quarter with the clash of the Flying Eagle. You are more than welcome to it if it helps you out. >>

Hi Derek,

I photographed a AU55 specimen a while back, clashing was pretty good.
I can send the photos to you to see if your clashing is an earlier die state and I can see
if I can get better photos.

Thanks
Kevin
kevinjflynn88@yahoo.com / kevinj50@comcast.net

kevinj · December 24, 2012 1:04AM

Rick,

I was looking for a good photo for the cover, I like your color photos of the FE and Twenty,
can I use these?

Thanks
Kevin

Sonorandesertrat · December 24, 2012 1:04AM

Didn't Bill Fivaz also find the first example of an 1857 Liberty Seated quarter with clash marks from a cent die?

Moldnut · December 24, 2012 1:07AM

Not much of a picture but this will give you some kind of idea...

CaptHenway · December 25, 2012 2:28PM

<< Didn't Bill Fivaz also find the first example of an 1857 Liberty Seated quarter with clash marks from a cent die? >>

Yes, that's what I said. Bill went on to find the quarter clash marks. Both the quarter on the cent and the cent on the quarter.

CaptHenway · December 25, 2012 2:28PM

<< 

<< I hope you recognize my "Midnight Minter" theory as at least a possibility for the 1857's.
I can tell you when the first multi-denominational clash mark was identified as such. Though Jim Johnson had published the half dollar clash marks on the cent in Collectors Clearinghouse once or twice, nobody knew what they were.
At the combined error meeting at the 1977 ANA convention in Atlanta, I was sitting next to Bill Fivaz and he was showing me his cherrypicks from the show. One of them was a high-grade piece, and after I looked at it for a while the design clicked in my head and I told Bill "those are clash marks from a Liberty Seated die." It would be safe to say that he was surprised. Later we compared it to a Seated half and determined that that was the denomination of the other die. Bill then went on to find the quarter clashmarks now that he knew what to look for.
TD >>

Tom,

I did analyze the midnight minter theory, George was the foreman of the engraver room would have access to the dies, his son Theodore was the night watchman, would probably have access to the presses.
Theodore was known to be selling patterns and such on the outside, believe they were the ones who struck the 1804 Type II. I concluded that they were not the cause and effect of these. They were profit
motivated, none of these were known to have been sold and saved for a profit, why leave evidence around which would point to them. Of course, I have no proof, for or against that they did the clashings,
just my belief based upon what we know.

I you would like to include your theory, I will include it in the book.

Kevin >>

What is your deadline?

TD

ThePennyLady · December 25, 2012 3:39PM

Kevin, I realize this is a separate issue from the multi-denominational clashed dies, but I'm curious whether you reached any conclusions as to how off-center die clashing occurrs as in the 1880 Indian cent?

LanceNewmanOCC · December 25, 2012 4:04PM

.
these looks pretty well lined up initially but after review the FE needs to go right 2-3 mm as the top of the left wreath looks to touch the beak.

here are the conversions prior to overlaying to keep dimensions proportionate
.

1 pixel=3.78mm

FE cent = 19mm so 19x3.78=71.82mm x10 to scale up = 718
SL quart t1 = 24.3mm so 24.3x3.78=91.85x10 to scale up = 919

imaged scaled down to proportions since original images vary in size.

i think after the saving the dimension changed slightly but proportions stayed the same since layers are flattened to each other.

oh crap it is 2am, no one is awake but me, grrr

kevinj · December 26, 2012 2:36AM

<< 
What is your deadline?
TD >>

Hopefully mid Jan

Kevin

MrEureka · December 26, 2012 3:25AM

As for the "midnight minter" theory, consider that somebody at the Mint was thinking about creating multi-denominational mules, and he may have tried various methods, some with little success.

Here's one example of a borderline successful experiment, in which a struck half dime was likely placed on top of a blank cent or dime planchet, and then the pair was struck between the cent dies.

CaptHenway · December 26, 2012 5:28AM

<< 

<< 
What is your deadline?
TD >>

Hopefully mid Jan

Kevin >>

Will get you something ASAP.
TD

errormaven · December 27, 2012 8:20AM

With respect to misaligned die clashes (the term I prefer), are you restricting your coverage to 19th century issues? There are at least 27 cents with dates ranging from 1991 - 2000 that feature radically misaligned (and tilted) die clashes:

http://www.maddieclashes.com/About_This_Site.html

-- Mike Diamond

CaptHenway · December 27, 2012 10:37AM

Mike ... Has the change in press technology (from the presses with the dies aligned vertically to the ones with the dies aligned horizontally) affected the occurence of misaligned clash marks in any way?

TD

CaptHenway · December 27, 2012 11:54AM

Can anybody PM me Keven's e-mail address? I need to send him my input.
TD

CaptHenway · December 27, 2012 12:54PM

Got the email address. Thanks.

errormaven · December 27, 2012 1:14PM

<< Mike ... Has the change in press technology (from the presses with the dies aligned vertically to the ones with the dies aligned horizontally) affected the occurence of misaligned clash marks in any way?

TD >>

As far as I can tell, all of these radically misaligned and tilted die clashes were struck on older-style presses. There are many mysteries surrounding them. Unlike coins actually struck by tilted and misaligned dies, the direction of tilt and horizontal offset are decoupled in most of the clashes (see my recent Coin World article on Canadian MAD clashes). Also, it's only cents that are involved. Presumably these presses were used to strike other denominations, but these mishaps don't affect those other denominations.

LanceNewmanOCC · December 27, 2012 1:19PM

<< Can anybody PM me Keven's e-mail address? I need to send him my input.
TD >>

were the 17 times the email was posted in this thread insufficient?

.

oldsubguru · December 27, 2012 10:54PM

I know , I do not normally get over to this forum, but Mike D. notified me of this interesting post. If at all possible, I would like to add some of the images contained in this post to MADdieclashes.com. Thanks to Rick Snow, we have pretty well covered the Flying Eagle cent to other denominational clashes and would like to finish out this "mule" clash category if at all possible. The e-mail address for this site is MADdieclashes@aol.com. if you would like to "donate" some of these images for our site.

renomedphys · December 28, 2012 3:11AM

Having first read the OP as "multi-dimensional", you can see how disappointed I was to open the thread!

kevinj · December 28, 2012 5:26AM

<< With respect to misaligned die clashes (the term I prefer), are you restricting your coverage to 19th century issues? There are at least 27 cents with dates ranging from 1991 - 2000 that feature radically misaligned (and tilted) die clashes:
http://www.maddieclashes.com/About_This_Site.html
-- Mike Diamond >>

Hey Mike,

For the book, on the Lincolns, only included one as an example, I believe the 83 mad clash,
I am out of town this week, do not have all of my stuff with me.

If you would like to write an article or chapter for the book on these, that would be great.

I believe there are 6 off-center clashes from the 20th century, I also analyzed the Morgans which
were claimed to be denticle clashing and others. I did a chapter in the front of the book on how
they possibly were created, most of course were I believe the result of a dropped working die.

Thanks
Kevin
kevinjflynn88@yahoo.com

kevinj · December 28, 2012 5:35AM

<< I know , I do not normally get over to this forum, but Mike D. notified me of this interesting post. If at all possible, I would like to add some of the images contained in this post to MADdieclashes.com. Thanks to Rick Snow, we have pretty well covered the Flying Eagle cent to other denominational clashes and would like to finish out this "mule" clash category if at all possible. The e-mail address for this site is MADdieclashes@aol.com. if you would like to "donate" some of these images for our site. >>

I have photos of 1864 off-center obv/rev

Also, there are 42 Morgan Dollars that were claimed to be denticle clashing, I
did an analysis of all of the photos online, and photographed and examined half of them,
in my opinion, only one is a true off-center clash.

Are you looking for multi-denominational clashed dies or off-center or both?

Both of these are my favorite type of die variety.

Kevin
kevinjflynn88@yahoo.com

multi-denominational clashed die refuted by Kevin Flynn

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