One really needs to learn the auction laws as they very from state to state. What is legally defined as shilling in one state is the reason some auction houses do not put on auctions in some states as it is their stock and trade.
<< <i><< It isn't unusual to... find that the underbidder is the consignor. >>
A consignor places a reserve (a consignor's bid is another term for reserve). A bidder places a bid. The auctioneer raises the bid on behalf of the consignor. If the reserve is met, the auctioneer stops bidding on behalf of the consignor. The consignor was the underbidder...by ONE INCREMENT -- ALWAYS -- It's not fishy -- it's how the process and the math works. >>
Does this mean that if I consign a coin with a reserve of $10,000 and it doesn't sell, I have re-bought my coin? Basically paying myself, plus the house's 17.5%? That seems like a can't win situation... >>
No, the unsuccessful consignor pays a buy-back fee that is a good deal lower than the buyers' fee. In the old days it was something like 4%.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>One really needs to learn the auction laws as they very from state to state. What is legally defined as shilling in one state is the reason some auction houses do not put on auctions in some states as it is their stock and trade. >>
Good advice. In addition to other variances state by state, some do and some don't require that a consignor bidding from the floor be identified to the audience. I believe Heritage makes an announcement from the podium if a book or podium bid (not reserve) is being executed on behalf of the consignor.
One story of my own. The day day before the bidding, I drive to a semi-local "country" auction, "secret" in nature (because they haven't advertised in Coin World), to look at coin lots. They've got boxed GSA CC dollars (these seem to always sell for too much in this kind of venue), junk silver, and some world gold bullion coins. The auctioneer, when he finds out I'm looking at coins, asks if I know what countries they are from (!!!!!) and will I catalogue them as to country and denomination. So I'm going through them and flirting with his assistant, who, after a dirty look from her boss, tells me that's she also his girlfriend. As I'm chastely finishing up the coins, I notice these large Erte-decorated bottles of brandy and ask him about them. His response: "I know as much about them as the coins".
Next morning I call a friend at Sotheby's who puts me in touch with their wine expert. He values $800 each on three of them and $1100 on another and says they're easy sells.
So the coins sell, and I'm still there. The bottles are almost next. When he gets to them he says that he'll put them aside for later. He announces he's going to sell the furniture, which stretchs around the entire VFW Hall, and will get back to them later. 2 hours later they finally go off. Chinese (?) auction rules. Start high and keep asking for bids as the starting bid is reduced until the first real bid is made. First lot and he goes from $1000 to $100 and I bid. Against him and only him at the podium I bid up to $600 for the three and $850 for the other. He outbids me on all four. When I go to pick up my two Russian 10 rubles (profit not enough to pay for my gas) I say (quite blithely) "Nice bottles. Worth more if you don't drink them". He frowns. The look on his girlfriend's face? Priceless!
After 35 years of being an auction slut, I have innumerable tawdry and morally corrupt stories to tell. I wasn't even part of most of them. For a glass ot two of wine at FUN I'd gladly share the ones for which the statute of limitations has expired. The first one's free. For the heights (or depths) of tomfoolery, cesspoolery and fraud, check out coin funds Athena I and Athena II from the 80's.
Also, intentionally cryptical, I refer you to bidder paddles 500 and 123 (no more can be said openly but consistent dealer attendees at certain not-too-far past sales will chuckle).
Oh. for the days of the Wild Wild West. Oy!
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>One really needs to learn the auction laws as they very from state to state. What is legally defined as shilling in one state is the reason some auction houses do not put on auctions in some states as it is their stock and trade. >>
Good advice. In addition to other variances state by state, some do and some don't require that a consignor bidding from the floor be identified to the audience. I believe Heritage makes an announcement from the podium if a book or podium bid (not reserve) is being executed on behalf of the consignor.
One story of my own. The day day before the bidding, I drive to a semi-local "country" auction, "secret" in nature (because they haven't advertised in Coin World), to look at coin lots. They've got boxed GSA CC dollars (these seem to always sell for too much in this kind of venue), junk silver, and some world gold bullion coins. The auctioneer, when he finds out I'm looking at coins, asks if I know what countries they are from (!!!!!) and will I catalogue them as to country and denomination. So I'm going through them and flirting with his assistant, who, after a dirty look from her boss, tells me that's she also his girlfriend. As I'm chastely finishing up the coins, I notice these large Erte-decorated bottles of brandy and ask him about them. His response: "I know as much about them as the coins".
Next morning I call a friend at Sotheby's who puts me in touch with their wine expert. He values $800 each on three of them and $1100 on another and says they're easy sells.
So the coins sell, and I'm still there. The bottles are almost next. When he gets to them he says that he'll put them aside for later. He announces he's going to sell the furniture, which stretchs around the entire VFW Hall, and will get back to them later. 2 hours later they finally go off. Chinese (?) auction rules. Start high and keep asking for bids as the starting bid is reduced until the first real bid is made. First lot and he goes from $1000 to $100 and I bid. Against him and only him at the podium I bid up to $600 for the three and $850 for the other. He outbids me on all four. When I go to pick up my two Russian 10 rubles (profit not enough to pay for my gas) I say (quite blithely) "Nice bottles. Worth more if you don't drink them". He frowns. The look on his girlfriend's face? Priceless!
After 35 years of being an auction slut, I have innumerable tawdry and morally corrupt stories to tell. I wasn't even part of most of them. For a glass ot two of wine at FUN I'd gladly share the ones for which the statute of limitations has expired. The first one's free. For the heights (or depths) of tomfoolery, cesspoolery and fraud, check out coin funds Athena I and Athena II from the 80's.
Also, intentionally cryptical, I refer you to bidder paddles 500 and 123 (no more can be said openly but consistent dealer attendees at certain not-too-far past sales will chuckle).
Oh. for the days of the Wild Wild West. Oy! >>
We posted at the same time. Your response is better. See you at FUN.
How about the groups of folks who agree to buy and "split" a coin?
K[/q
Yep. Back in the 80's the U.S. Department of Justice brought a successful criminal anti-trust action against a ring of Philadephia area antique dealers who agreed not to bid against each other at public auctions, then had a very elaborate "second auction" that was the mechanism to divvy up the spoils. Some people actually served time.
Collector since adolescent days in the early 1960's. Mostly inactive now, but I enjoy coin periodicals and books and coin shows as health permits.
How about the groups of folks who agree to buy and "split" a coin?
K >>
Among large cent collectors, one such auction is infamous. It was the 1959 Pennypacker Auction Centre sale of the large cent collection of Leonard Holland. He had to surrender his coins to a bank after a construction loan went south. The new owner consigned them to Pennypacker, a small-time PA auction firm primarily known for furniture and bric-a-brac. The sale was not well publicized, and only a handful of early copper cognoscenti attended (including Reale, Paschal, Helfenstein, Breen, and H. Stack). These guys (and gal) quickly agreed not to bid against one another; several placed their bids via the same agent. They got nice large cents (mostly bought from the well-known dealer Thomas Elder) for 30-50 cents on the dollar. After the auction was over, this 'consortium' moved to a nearby hotel, and quietly held a 'post-auction' auction among themselves. Needless to say, the differences between the two auction results were dramatic.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
How about the groups of folks who agree to buy and "split" a coin?
K >>
Guess it depends on whether they wink at each other or go back and discuss a specific amount of collusion.
I recall sitting at a major southern Calif. auction sale in 2002 when a gorgeous NGC MS67 half dime was up for sale. I felt it was a 67++. Figured my bid for $3200. The coin opened at $1500. Got one more bid to $1650 and sat there. Calls from the auctioneer produced no more bids. I was scratching my head. The coin must be AT or something I tell myself. Now I'm afraid to raise my paddle even if MS67 bid was 50% higher than that. The coin hammered for $1650. I turn around to a dealer sitting behind me and asked what was up with that lot? He replied that several guys thought it was a 68 shot and didn't want to run themselves up. So they all split the lot. So even if there were 5 of them they just made $200 each by doing nothing. 5X that if the coin went 68. Must have not even been a reserve on that lot. Those were the days when NGC coins actually sold for real money.
I could find the lot # and auction on that in about 5 minutes as that auction is posted on line in archives. But I don't exactly recall if it was an old holder. Since I flew out to that auction to see a bunch of seated coins in old holders, it probably was. Most of my bids were geared towards undergraded old holders in that sale. It was just a common 1860 or 1862 gem MS half dime, but in uncommon condition. Thing is, had I bid on it, I probably would have just run the bid up to those dealers high bid which was probably at $3,000+. It's unlikely I would have even won the lot. But I could have saved the consignor and auction house some cash.
Just looked it up. An 1860. It went for $1783. No mention of old holder or not. It opened up at $1550 and did not receive a bid from the floor. The dealer behind me told me the group's high bid on the lot was $3250. My high bid was only $3,000 and I was scared to bid even $1600 on it when it had no action on the floor. There were no shortage of famous dealers and sharp eyes at that sale. No one bid for whatever reason. $2350 was blue sheet bid on the type.
Estimated value was $1500-$2000....so I guess it sold "fair"....
Most everything else in that sale sold for reasonable or real money. For some reason that half dime stuck out like a sore thumb fetching 25% under bid....and it was a monster toner.
I don't know if several dealers or collectors pooling their money is technically collusion. I know in one auction me and my buddy decided to bid on some neat seated lots and split the cost between us. We were acting as one entity. In fact he had never bid in any major auction in his life before this. It was sort of like an adventure. I don't think we could be called collusionists. And the raw lots we won we paid strong for. On half of them they came back a grade lower than we expected. Probably broke even on the whole deal. Auction houses need more "collusion" like that. The lots that I really wanted my buddy didn't like and they went for "too much money." Those were the lots that turned out to be scores for the buyers. Isn't that always the case?
What I heard is a group of dealers who would have normally competed with each other to obtain THE coin instead met before the auction and planned not to compete and agreed to chose just one dealer to bid ont he coin and then resell it at an obscene profit and divide up the booty since it was a hiuge cherrypick. If they didn't agree to band together to get the coin the price would have shot to the moon, instead they quietly bought he cherrypcik cheap. I would think that this is also known as collusion where the consignor was injured in not receiving what he surely would have if they didn't collude. I realize that this can't be prevented and if you are on the buying side you are happy and if on the selling side not so. Obviously if the consignor knew what he had he could have had a high reserve which really puts the onice on him.
So, ultimately, those dealers screwed an individual collector. Here is my conclusion: Auctions are a terrible place for an individual collector to sell a coin. And, auctions are a terrible place for individual collectors to buy a coin.
And, dealers protect each other. Why haven't these dealers been reported to the authorities?
After reading this thread some may draw the conclusion that the business side of this hobby is thoroughly corrupt.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have a friend who goes to a lot of auctions. One time an auctioneer he knows took him aside and asked him to bid up several items. In return, the auctioneer said he'd bring the hammer down quickly on an item he wanted to buy.
Here is a blog from a auctioneer that explains first hand a lot of the things that go on in the workings of auctions that explain why it seems you are bidding against a potted plant, etc
<< <i>After reading this thread some may draw the conclusion that the business side of this hobby is thoroughly corrupt. >>
I'd call it capitalism with a good dose of shinanigins thrown in for good measure.
This is why I have always said 'there is no such thing as a true auction' and also why I have only made one purchase at an auction in the past 15 years.
If you go into these auctions with a full resource of knowledge, composure and don't get swept up with the emotional aspect, then you can, at times, do very well.
But if you're naive enough to believe that 100% of these sales are on the up and up, then you can get burned.
I don't have the time nor the intelligence to do that so I just stay away and make my purchases at coin shows and stores where I'm not competeing against some unknown 'force' that can cost me big time in my pocket book..
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
auctions are a terrible place for individual collectors to buy a coin. My greatest wins were at auction... What happened with Roadrunner was just "follow the other lemmings". If he had the confidence and went against the grain, he would have out-witted a "collusion" of dealers. Soooo, the coin"possibly" was a 68 win, but Brian had his chance!!!
'd call it capitalism with a good dose of shinanigins thrown in for good measure.
If by the term "shenanigins", you intended to say that there is a good dose of deceitful practices and deceitful tricks, then, RoadRunner, you appear to be accurate.
At any rate, this thread makes it very clear that there are significant deceptive practices that inflate prices at coin auctions and that harm individual collectors.
I tend to set my bids and hope I win at that level or below. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I can't count the number of high priced coins that sell at auction - and are immediately offered to the underbidder at their last bid. Did the potted palm in the back of the room have buyer's regret? >>
The lamp that outbid me had the auction house contact me later to see if I was still interested in the item. I asked how much? The auction house stated a price. I said, go back and ask the lamp for a better price.
MJ >>
ROFLMAO! So how did the "lamp" respond?
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>Then, again, could be that auctioneers are econ dropouts... Love this stuff. Liars >>
WOW!
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>Here is a blog from a auctioneer that explains first hand a lot of the things that go on in the workings of auctions that explain why it seems you are bidding against a potted plant, etc
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
I've been avoiding this thread for the last 2 days, which explains my last 3 posts in succession.
Great thread! Learned a ton! This is the quality of the collective posters' experience on CU that I really enjoy. Lot's of great discussion and the posted links were definitely informational. I think I now know why my eBay buys seem to be so much higher than some of my competitive bidders on similar items.
My story is about eBay auctions, back when eBay was mostly a solely Auction type, transactionally based market.
I had bought a coin at eBay "auction". I've bought many under that format and I've always been bitter that I tend to pay more for my winnings than other bidders have for the same item. So one time, I was so pizzed that someone got the same type of item I won, got it for half price! In response, I decided that I would be the market maker for this item going forward. So whenever I say folks winning bids for this particular item, I would run up the bid price by bidding higher than the current winning bid. Thus creating a 2-way bid race and forcing the opponent to pay more than would otherwise be required to win the coin. I did this successfully 10/12 times. The other 2 times I ended up paying more than I would have.
We all "pay" for our "lessons" leanrned thru experience.
This thread offers a very valuable FREE lesson. And for me, it explains why my sell coins on eBay never sell for what I want, and why my buy coins on eBay always seem to be more than other eBayers seem to pay.
Many thanks to the OP for starting this discussion. It's one of the better threads I've read in recent years.
Cheers!
Kirk
"Please help us keep these boards professional and informative…. And fun." - DW --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BONGO HURTLES ALONG THE RAIN SODDEN HIGHWAY OF LIFE ON UNDERINFLATED BALD RETREAD TIRES
<< <i>auctions are a terrible place for individual collectors to buy a coin. My greatest wins were at auction... What happened with Roadrunner was just "follow the other lemmings". If he had the confidence and went against the grain, he would have out-witted a "collusion" of dealers. Soooo, the coin"possibly" was a 68 win, but Brian had his chance!!! >>
There are lots of nicely artificially toned coins in holders. This half dime could have been one of them. I learned many lessons on the auction floors over the years. And one of those was that if there was little to no action on a coin that seemingly was well under it's guide book price, the coin probably had issues (ie cleaned, AT, tooled, etc.). This particular lot in this auction was more like a perfect storm. I'd never seen this situation before or since. There are probably a dozen other forum members/dealers who were in that room with me that day that didn't bid on that lot either. The few times that I won lots way too cheap at major auction were invariably coins that later failed to slab or I couldn't sell for a profit. Even if I had bid on this lot above, I wouldn't have won it. The dealer group would have had to bid their max of $3250. Either way, I wasn't ever going to be the owner as my max on the lot was $3,000.
Going 100% against the grain in a major auction environment is usually not a good thing. Had there been at least one other floor bidder I would have comfortably bid to my $3,000 limit and lost. The other concern I had was that I went to that sale primarily for the neat seated quarters and halves. I didn't need to spend $3K speculating on a MS67 half dime upgrade. As it was I spent my full load in that sale on 3 ogh half dimes, 2 ogh seated quarters, and 2 ogh seated halves ($55K total). Those 2 halves cost me $32K and I upgraded both of them to 66's. They did very well for me when it was time to sell a few years later. The other 5 coins didn't do so well for me ending up around break even. The irony is that I gave up on the upgrades to those 2 seated quarters. A major dealer bought one of them from me and upgraded to a pop 1 MS65 and doubled the value. The other quarter I found out got stripped, dipped, and puttied its way into a MS65 upgrade. That was sad to hear. I've never had great luck with half dimes though. In any case, I knew what those 2 halves and quarters were and I wasn't planning on leaving without them as long as moon money wasn't involved. In looking back at my bidder notes for that sale I see that the winner of that MS67 half dime carried 4 other card #'s with them (ie they were bidding the cards of 4 other dealers, one of them I knew as a seated/type specialist). So that probably meant that 5 type coin players were splitting that half dime between them.
My greatest wins and losses have typically been at major auctions. Those major losses occurred in major raw coin auctions where I went on my gut instinct despite the evidence around me. At a major 1988 ANA auction I got my head handed to me when I was winning a lot of lots way too easily. I remember talking to Bob Rose after the sale remarking on my good fortune of spending around $30k when the stuff should have been worth a lot more. When I got the lots back to my hotel room the next day I was shocked to see that they all looked to be a grade lower than what I had bid to. And that was no surprise since the auction viewing was held in a huge hall with flourescent lights 30 ft up. That fuzzy lighting interfered with the lights at the viewing tables. I had even asked the auction house to dim the lights in the hall to remove the interference. They did that. And the coins looked worse at the time which was good. But not worse enough. What lighting remained still interfered as I found out a few days later. In the end I lost $8K on those lots. It was a hard lesson. That lighting issue never happened to me again. Imagine if I had $200K to spend at that auction and just bulled ahead on my "confidence." One can have all the confidence in their abilities to grade MS/PF coins, but if you don't have a perfect lighting set up, there is that chance to mess up, esp. with raw coins. With those ogh slabs above I didn't quite have that same risk. You ask yourself do these coins look undergraded or not. Usually, your only downside to a regrade is the $25-$100 fee.
While not a "collusion" I still remember an auction from the 1980's. A major player that was buying about 50% of the lots in a two day auction lost track of the lot being sold. Only after it was hammered did he look up, ask what lot number they were on, looked at his book, and asked what it sold for. Upon hearing that it sold for $2500, he exclaimed loudly "My customer would have paid $5000!"
When the auctioneer asked the successful bidder if he would allow the lot to be re-opened, the bidder said "No problem" and the lot was re-bid. Smiles in the audience turned into laughter when no one would start the bidding, waiting for the dealer with the $5000 customer bid. He finally opened at $1000, and a dozen other dealers slowly bid him up to $4500, each one turning to stare at him after placing their bid.
The major player finally gave up and bid $5000, winning the lot to immense applause. He had been hoping to buy the lot for around $2500 and sell it to his customer for the full $5000, and his profit vanished. He also had to put up with a lot of grief from the auctioneer the rest of the night -- the auctioneer constantly reminded him of the current lot number, and asked him a number of times if he was still awake.
I don't recall exactly what book this was in, but Abe Kosoff is ringing a bell. Anyway, the story is about two dealers, and this is back in the 50s or 60s, and at auctions they would compare high bids for their customers. Auction time comes and each dealer would run the other up so they could maximize their commissions for each customer purchase. Nice, huh?
Or the opposite, as in the Farouk Sale, where the "carving up" was done right before each session in a remote location because the dealers were afraid their rooms were bugged. Abe was at the center of this. To complicate things, many were bidding on Hans M. F. Shulman's paddle because he had a $200,000 + credit good only for that auction. I'm not sure how much John Pittman was privy to. There may have been courtesies extended in both directions, as there often are.
Of course, playing "high bid" doesn't work so well if there are others in the auction, not included in this earlier game, who know what they're doing.
A case in point, the Carl Zelson(sp)? Family Collection (Stacks 2000ish). A complete run of raw minor coins in proof from 1892-1915. Totally intact, original, beautifully toned and superb. Recollection hazy now, but I would say the average grade of the silver was PR66. 5-7 players played "high bid", though plenty enough were not invited or abstained.
Sometimes "high bid" is played like liar's poker in that you bid high enough to win, but in "high bid" you don't get called, except to split. But then by someone else or others in the room. And of course people who have played are barred from the bidding up the "high bidder". Break the rules and you're barred from the group, whatever ad hoc it might be, and a dishonored player's rep went around quickly. Like a poker player who deals seconds. BTW I've heard of a coin dealer who does this, but he's such a poor player overall that they just let him keep coming back again.
And, in another unusual interpretation, which happened at Bass I on the patterns. Dealer A,B,C,D, etc had played pre-sale. Dealer "A" had the highest bid on a lot. After" A" had been pushed to his max and exceeded by an outsider, "B" came in above his previously stated and abided-by limit after abstaining as per agreement, but raised his appraisal after seeing how other dealers he respected had seen and priced the coin. After "B" bought the coin "A" decided "B" had violated the code and charged to the back of the room and knocked "B" to the ground. But they had a special relationship. and to TDN
So, Zelson... I wasn't in on this one. Neither were maybe another 20 really sharp graders. The logistics and the egos made it impossible. .... An unassuming ex-employee of mine from the 80's (sometimes a PCGS grader) sees a 1903 25c as a PR70. He might have paid $25,300 or $29,900. So someone else saw it that way too. The underbidder had to make good his highest bid to the group.
BTW I completely missed this lot. The toning was not close to wonderful, let alone amazing, and it was a semi-cameo, maybe better than typical for this date, but . And both bidders missed a hairline. I think I remember my grade as 67+
It worked the other way too. Two lots later the underbidder on that lot bought the 1903 S$1 for maybe $46,200. He saw it as PR68+, Don't know how that one turned out. He'd previously bought several Morgan's in Eliasberg that graded PF68 but he had to finance them and they took a while to sell. The Zelson coin was finer. But a lot more for shot 69.
In the latter instance, as in many others, members of the ad hoc group might chortle with snarky glee about how much their transactional ally was forced to pay when they no longer had skin in the game. There was the prevalent suspicion (and rightly so) that almost anyone playing might occasionally be tactically faking a higher grade and price to win a lot privately and then had the room called his bluff. Or hoped it graded what they expected on a bad day rather than what the winner calculated and hoped on a good one. Jealousy, ego, schadenfreude, greed, aggression and narcissism. And enlightened self-interest dictated by respect for each other's technical and pricing abilities. A very variegated shifting stew of options to be considered and acted upon in what used to be a 20+ national auction sale itinerary. I miss Harvey Stack, off the podium for a hundred lots, making his mid-evening trek to the back if the room. We were earnestly chided "Anyone could walk in here and guess what's going on.You know what's happened before".
Ten years later, raw coins in major US auctions are done. Grading is tougher, and there's a broader base of retail. And many more agent bids. And many more saying "I can't talk about it", agent or not.
BTW Stacks, though a bit behind the curve for a while, came to consistently serve the best food on the auction circuit when selling in NY. I'm looking forward to Angelo's Margherita pizza at lot viewing alternating with mounds of NY deli treats.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
A few years back, a friend of mine had his comem. Collection in auction at FUN. The Prescot collection, some really neat coins and maps and original boards for sale. I sat behind two well known dealers who dealt in comems who openly talked about which of them would bid on which coin, so as not to run each other up. Is this collusion? I know my buddy did not get the benefit of these two bidding against one another to raise the final sale price.
I always find it 'interesting' that on eBay I set my max as xxx.xx and the times when I win I always seem to win at my max. I even play with the numbers like I will bid $111.44 just to be funny and wouldn't ya know that I win at $111.44.
Would it be different if the 2 commem dealers teamed up their eyes and wallets and split lots evenly? The consignor still wouldn't have the benefit of these 2 guys running themselves up. Or what if they both decided to pass on the auction rather than run each other up, hoping to pick up some of the coins from other winning bidders?
Let's just say many of the stories here are why I basically do not allow my customers to auction their coins without setting "safety net" reserves. And even then ....
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Let's just say many of the stories here are why I basically do not allow my customers to auction their coins without setting "safety net" reserves. And even then ....
Wondercoin >>
The wisest course.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Ahhhhhhh, in my sordid past, I must admit to having once been a licensed and bonded auctioneer and often, I would whore myself out to various and sundry companies to call the auctions. It is possible to be ethical and not bump the floor by having a vicious bidding war between the one lone bidder with his paddle waving in the air, the water cooler, and a potted plant at the rear of the room, however it has been known to happen on more than one occasion. But, and this is the big but, just because you, the lone bidder, can't see anyone else waving the paddle frantically against you doesn't mean to say that you're in the middle of a colonoscopy. An auctioneer gets to know the signs of a couple of regulars, or often, potential bidders would flag me prior to the auction to watch out for their pen to be elevated etc. The wink and head scratch might make for good TV faire, but in the real world, I'd have figured you for either a person trying to get fresh with me, or one with poor personal hygene. As for knocking the lots down quickly and someone getting a bargain, that's life. My once, twice, third and last call could be uttered faster than a speeding bullet. There was no way I'd wait while someone snoozed, dillied and dallied or just couldn't make up their minds, I had 1500 lots to call and a home w/wife and kids to get back to. The only exception to this would be if the book was weak, and the auction company asked me to work the floor. Yep, I'd take my time, hold your hand, jest with the crowd on the floor, because if I was able to cajole some action, there was a bonus attached for the day's work. It's just business.
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Would it be different if the 2 commem dealers teamed up their eyes and wallets and split lots evenly? They consignor still wouldn't have the benefit of these 2 guys running themselves up. Or what if they both decided to pass on the auction rather than run each other up, hoping to pick up some of the coins from other winning bidders? >>
Bidder A and bidder B both are planning on bidding on coins in a particular series they specialize in. They get together before the auction and decide which coins each will bid on so as not to run the bid up on the other guy. Each have a limit set on the max they will go on a lot, so if bidder C comes along and outbids, they drop out of the bidding. If no one else bids above their bids on the lots they previously agreed on, they win the lots. Doesn't matter if they are collectors or dealers engaging in the collusion, but I bet we all know which group would be demonized for it.
Absolutely right. At least the consignor sold his coins. Does it really matter to him(her) who bids on the coins as long as they met the reserve?
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i><< It isn't unusual to... find that the underbidder is the consignor. >>
A consignor places a reserve (a consignor's bid is another term for reserve). A bidder places a bid. The auctioneer raises the bid on behalf of the consignor. If the reserve is met, the auctioneer stops bidding on behalf of the consignor. The consignor was the underbidder...by ONE INCREMENT -- ALWAYS -- It's not fishy -- it's how the process and the math works. >>
Does this mean that if I consign a coin with a reserve of $10,000 and it doesn't sell, I have re-bought my coin? Basically paying myself, plus the house's 17.5%? That seems like a can't win situation... >>
No, the unsuccessful consignor pays a buy-back fee that is a good deal lower than the buyers' fee. In the old days it was something like 4%.
<< <i>One really needs to learn the auction laws as they very from state to state. What is legally defined as shilling in one state is the reason some auction houses do not put on auctions in some states as it is their stock and trade. >>
Good advice. In addition to other variances state by state, some do and some don't require that a consignor bidding from the floor be identified to the audience. I believe Heritage makes an announcement from the podium if a book or podium bid (not reserve) is being executed on behalf of the consignor.
One story of my own. The day day before the bidding, I drive to a semi-local "country" auction, "secret" in nature (because they haven't advertised in Coin World), to look at coin lots. They've got boxed GSA CC dollars (these seem to always sell for too much in this kind of venue), junk silver, and some world gold bullion coins. The auctioneer, when he finds out I'm looking at coins, asks if I know what countries they are from (!!!!!) and will I catalogue them as to country and denomination. So I'm going through them and flirting with his assistant, who, after a dirty look from her boss, tells me that's she also his girlfriend. As I'm chastely finishing up the coins, I notice these large Erte-decorated bottles of brandy and ask him about them. His response: "I know as much about them as the coins".
Next morning I call a friend at Sotheby's who puts me in touch with their wine expert. He values $800 each on three of them and $1100 on another and says they're easy sells.
So the coins sell, and I'm still there. The bottles are almost next. When he gets to them he says that he'll put them aside for later. He announces he's going to sell the furniture, which stretchs around the entire VFW Hall, and will get back to them later. 2 hours later they finally go off. Chinese (?) auction rules. Start high and keep asking for bids as the starting bid is reduced until the first real bid is made. First lot and he goes from $1000 to $100 and I bid. Against him and only him at the podium I bid up to $600 for the three and $850 for the other. He outbids me on all four. When I go to pick up my two Russian 10 rubles (profit not enough to pay for my gas) I say (quite blithely) "Nice bottles. Worth more if you don't drink them". He frowns. The look on his girlfriend's face? Priceless!
After 35 years of being an auction slut, I have innumerable tawdry and morally corrupt stories to tell. I wasn't even part of most of them. For a glass ot two of wine at FUN I'd gladly share the ones for which the statute of limitations has expired. The first one's free. For the heights (or depths) of tomfoolery, cesspoolery and fraud, check out coin funds Athena I and Athena II from the 80's.
Also, intentionally cryptical, I refer you to bidder paddles 500 and 123 (no more can be said openly but consistent dealer attendees at certain not-too-far past sales will chuckle).
Oh. for the days of the Wild Wild West.
How about the groups of folks who agree to buy and "split" a coin?
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>
<< <i>One really needs to learn the auction laws as they very from state to state. What is legally defined as shilling in one state is the reason some auction houses do not put on auctions in some states as it is their stock and trade. >>
Good advice. In addition to other variances state by state, some do and some don't require that a consignor bidding from the floor be identified to the audience. I believe Heritage makes an announcement from the podium if a book or podium bid (not reserve) is being executed on behalf of the consignor.
One story of my own. The day day before the bidding, I drive to a semi-local "country" auction, "secret" in nature (because they haven't advertised in Coin World), to look at coin lots. They've got boxed GSA CC dollars (these seem to always sell for too much in this kind of venue), junk silver, and some world gold bullion coins. The auctioneer, when he finds out I'm looking at coins, asks if I know what countries they are from (!!!!!) and will I catalogue them as to country and denomination. So I'm going through them and flirting with his assistant, who, after a dirty look from her boss, tells me that's she also his girlfriend. As I'm chastely finishing up the coins, I notice these large Erte-decorated bottles of brandy and ask him about them. His response: "I know as much about them as the coins".
Next morning I call a friend at Sotheby's who puts me in touch with their wine expert. He values $800 each on three of them and $1100 on another and says they're easy sells.
So the coins sell, and I'm still there. The bottles are almost next. When he gets to them he says that he'll put them aside for later. He announces he's going to sell the furniture, which stretchs around the entire VFW Hall, and will get back to them later. 2 hours later they finally go off. Chinese (?) auction rules. Start high and keep asking for bids as the starting bid is reduced until the first real bid is made. First lot and he goes from $1000 to $100 and I bid. Against him and only him at the podium I bid up to $600 for the three and $850 for the other. He outbids me on all four. When I go to pick up my two Russian 10 rubles (profit not enough to pay for my gas) I say (quite blithely) "Nice bottles. Worth more if you don't drink them". He frowns. The look on his girlfriend's face? Priceless!
After 35 years of being an auction slut, I have innumerable tawdry and morally corrupt stories to tell. I wasn't even part of most of them. For a glass ot two of wine at FUN I'd gladly share the ones for which the statute of limitations has expired. The first one's free. For the heights (or depths) of tomfoolery, cesspoolery and fraud, check out coin funds Athena I and Athena II from the 80's.
Also, intentionally cryptical, I refer you to bidder paddles 500 and 123 (no more can be said openly but consistent dealer attendees at certain not-too-far past sales will chuckle).
Oh. for the days of the Wild Wild West.
We posted at the same time. Your response is better. See you at FUN.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>Auction manipulation goes both ways.
How about the groups of folks who agree to buy and "split" a coin?
K[/q
Yep. Back in the 80's the U.S. Department of Justice brought a successful criminal anti-trust action against a ring of Philadephia area antique dealers who agreed not to bid against each other at public auctions, then had a very elaborate "second auction" that was the mechanism to divvy up the spoils. Some people actually served time.
<< <i>Auction manipulation goes both ways.
How about the groups of folks who agree to buy and "split" a coin?
K >>
Among large cent collectors, one such auction is infamous. It was the 1959 Pennypacker Auction Centre sale of the large cent collection of Leonard Holland. He had to surrender his coins to a bank after a construction loan went south. The new owner consigned them to Pennypacker, a small-time PA auction firm primarily known for furniture and bric-a-brac. The sale was not well publicized, and only a handful of early copper cognoscenti attended (including Reale, Paschal, Helfenstein, Breen, and H. Stack). These guys (and gal) quickly agreed not to bid against one another; several placed their bids via the same agent. They got nice large cents (mostly bought from the well-known dealer Thomas Elder) for 30-50 cents on the dollar. After the auction was over, this 'consortium' moved to a nearby hotel, and quietly held a 'post-auction' auction among themselves. Needless to say, the differences between the two auction results were dramatic.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Read All About It
<< <i>Auction manipulation goes both ways.
How about the groups of folks who agree to buy and "split" a coin?
K >>
Guess it depends on whether they wink at each other or go back and discuss a specific amount of collusion.
I recall sitting at a major southern Calif. auction sale in 2002 when a gorgeous NGC MS67 half dime was up for sale. I felt it was a 67++. Figured my bid for $3200.
The coin opened at $1500. Got one more bid to $1650 and sat there. Calls from the auctioneer produced no more bids. I was scratching my head. The coin must
be AT or something I tell myself. Now I'm afraid to raise my paddle even if MS67 bid was 50% higher than that. The coin hammered for $1650. I turn around to a dealer
sitting behind me and asked what was up with that lot? He replied that several guys thought it was a 68 shot and didn't want to run themselves up. So they all split the lot.
So even if there were 5 of them they just made $200 each by doing nothing. 5X that if the coin went 68. Must have not even been a reserve on that lot. Those were the days
when NGC coins actually sold for real money.
auction to see a bunch of seated coins in old holders, it probably was. Most of my bids were geared towards undergraded old holders in that sale. It was just a common
1860 or 1862 gem MS half dime, but in uncommon condition. Thing is, had I bid on it, I probably would have just run the bid up to those dealers high bid which was probably
at $3,000+. It's unlikely I would have even won the lot. But I could have saved the consignor and auction house some cash.
Just looked it up. An 1860. It went for $1783. No mention of old holder or not. It opened up at $1550 and did not receive a bid from the floor. The dealer behind me told me
the group's high bid on the lot was $3250. My high bid was only $3,000 and I was scared to bid even $1600 on it when it had no action on the floor. There were no shortage of
famous dealers and sharp eyes at that sale. No one bid for whatever reason. $2350 was blue sheet bid on the type.
Estimated value was $1500-$2000....so I guess it sold "fair"....
I don't know if several dealers or collectors pooling their money is technically collusion. I know in one auction me and my buddy decided to bid on some neat seated lots and
split the cost between us. We were acting as one entity. In fact he had never bid in any major auction in his life before this. It was sort of like an adventure. I don't think we
could be called collusionists. And the raw lots we won we paid strong for. On half of them they came back a grade lower than we expected. Probably broke even on the whole deal.
Auction houses need more "collusion" like that. The lots that I really wanted my buddy didn't like and they went for "too much money." Those were the lots that turned out to be scores
for the buyers. Isn't that always the case?
So, ultimately, those dealers screwed an individual collector. Here is my conclusion: Auctions are a terrible place for an individual collector to sell a coin. And, auctions are a terrible place for individual collectors to buy a coin.
And, dealers protect each other. Why haven't these dealers been reported to the authorities?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
explain why it seems you are bidding against a potted plant, etc
http://texasauctioneer.blogspot.com/
<< <i>After reading this thread some may draw the conclusion that the business side of this hobby is thoroughly corrupt.
I'd call it capitalism with a good dose of shinanigins thrown in for good measure.
This is why I have always said 'there is no such thing as a true auction' and also why I have only made one purchase at an auction in the past 15 years.
If you go into these auctions with a full resource of knowledge, composure and don't get swept up with the emotional aspect, then you can, at times, do very well.
But if you're naive enough to believe that 100% of these sales are on the up and up, then you can get burned.
I don't have the time nor the intelligence to do that so I just stay away and make my purchases at coin shows and stores where I'm not competeing against some unknown 'force' that can cost me big time in my pocket book..
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
What happened with Roadrunner was just "follow the other lemmings". If he had the confidence and went against the grain, he would have out-witted a "collusion" of dealers. Soooo, the coin"possibly" was a 68 win, but Brian had his chance!!!
If by the term "shenanigins", you intended to say that there is a good dose of deceitful practices and deceitful tricks, then, RoadRunner, you appear to be accurate.
At any rate, this thread makes it very clear that there are significant deceptive practices that inflate prices at coin auctions and that harm individual collectors.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>I can't count the number of high priced coins that sell at auction - and are immediately offered to the underbidder at their last bid. Did the potted palm in the back of the room have buyer's regret?
The lamp that outbid me had the auction house contact me later to see if I was still interested in the item. I asked how much? The auction house stated a price. I said, go back and ask the lamp for a better price.
MJ >>
ROFLMAO! So how did the "lamp" respond?
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<< <i>Then, again, could be that auctioneers are econ dropouts... Love this stuff.
Liars >>
WOW!
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<< <i>Here is a blog from a auctioneer that explains first hand a lot of the things that go on in the workings of auctions that
explain why it seems you are bidding against a potted plant, etc
http://texasauctioneer.blogspot.com/ >>
Good Read! Thanks for the link!
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Great thread! Learned a ton! This is the quality of the collective posters' experience on CU that I really enjoy. Lot's of great discussion and the posted links were definitely informational. I think I now know why my eBay buys seem to be so much higher than some of my competitive bidders on similar items.
My story is about eBay auctions, back when eBay was mostly a solely Auction type, transactionally based market.
I had bought a coin at eBay "auction". I've bought many under that format and I've always been bitter that I tend to pay more for my winnings than other bidders have for the same item. So one time, I was so pizzed that someone got the same type of item I won, got it for half price! In response, I decided that I would be the market maker for this item going forward. So whenever I say folks winning bids for this particular item, I would run up the bid price by bidding higher than the current winning bid. Thus creating a 2-way bid race and forcing the opponent to pay more than would otherwise be required to win the coin. I did this successfully 10/12 times. The other 2 times I ended up paying more than I would have.
We all "pay" for our "lessons" leanrned thru experience.
This thread offers a very valuable FREE lesson. And for me, it explains why my sell coins on eBay never sell for what I want, and why my buy coins on eBay always seem to be more than other eBayers seem to pay.
Many thanks to the OP for starting this discussion. It's one of the better threads I've read in recent years.
Cheers!
Kirk
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Aw Shucks. Thanks guys
<< <i>auctions are a terrible place for individual collectors to buy a coin. My greatest wins were at auction...
What happened with Roadrunner was just "follow the other lemmings". If he had the confidence and went against the grain, he would have out-witted a "collusion" of dealers. Soooo, the coin"possibly" was a 68 win, but Brian had his chance!!!
There are lots of nicely artificially toned coins in holders. This half dime could have been one of them. I learned many lessons on the auction floors over the years. And one of those was that if there was little to no action on a coin that seemingly was well under it's guide book price, the coin probably had issues (ie cleaned, AT, tooled, etc.). This particular lot in this auction was more like a perfect storm. I'd never seen this situation before or since. There are probably a dozen other forum members/dealers who were in that room with me that day that didn't bid on that lot either. The few times that I won lots way too cheap at major auction were invariably coins that later failed to slab or I couldn't sell for a profit. Even if I had bid on this lot above, I wouldn't have won it. The dealer group would have had to bid their max of $3250. Either way, I wasn't ever going to be the owner as my max on the lot was $3,000.
Going 100% against the grain in a major auction environment is usually not a good thing. Had there been at least one other floor bidder I would have comfortably bid to my $3,000 limit and lost. The other concern I had was that I went to that sale primarily for the neat seated quarters and halves. I didn't need to spend $3K speculating on a MS67 half dime upgrade. As it was I spent my full load in that sale on 3 ogh half dimes, 2 ogh seated quarters, and 2 ogh seated halves ($55K total). Those 2 halves cost me $32K and I upgraded both of them to 66's. They did very well for me when it was time to sell a few years later. The other 5 coins didn't do so well for me ending up around break even. The irony is that I gave up on the upgrades to those 2 seated quarters. A major dealer bought one of them from me and upgraded to a pop 1 MS65 and doubled the value. The other quarter I found out got stripped, dipped, and puttied its way into a MS65 upgrade. That was sad to hear. I've never had great luck with half dimes though. In any case, I knew what those 2 halves and quarters were and I wasn't planning on leaving without them as long as moon money wasn't involved. In looking back at my bidder notes for that sale I see that the winner of that MS67 half dime carried 4 other card #'s with them (ie they were bidding the cards of 4 other dealers, one of them I knew as a seated/type specialist). So that probably meant that 5 type coin players were splitting that half dime between them.
My greatest wins and losses have typically been at major auctions. Those major losses occurred in major raw coin auctions where I went on my gut instinct despite the evidence around me. At a major 1988 ANA auction I got my head handed to me when I was winning a lot of lots way too easily. I remember talking to Bob Rose after the sale remarking on my good fortune of spending around $30k when the stuff should have been worth a lot more. When I got the lots back to my hotel room the next day I was shocked to see that they all looked to be a grade lower than what I had bid to. And that was no surprise since the auction viewing was held in a huge hall with flourescent lights 30 ft up. That fuzzy lighting interfered with the lights at the viewing tables. I had even asked the auction house to dim the lights in the hall to remove the interference. They did that. And the coins looked worse at the time which was good. But not worse enough. What lighting remained still interfered as I found out a few days later. In the end I lost $8K on those lots. It was a hard lesson. That lighting issue never happened to me again. Imagine if I had $200K to spend at that auction and just bulled ahead on my "confidence." One can have all the confidence in their abilities to grade MS/PF coins, but if you don't have a perfect lighting set up, there is that chance to mess up, esp. with raw coins. With those ogh slabs above I didn't quite have that same risk. You ask yourself do these coins look undergraded or not. Usually, your only downside to a regrade is the $25-$100 fee.
<< <i>Who can describe (or has experienced) cases of price manipulation in bidding at public coin auctions?
I will save my example for last. >>
We are waiting...
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
50% of the lots in a two day auction lost track of the lot being sold. Only after it was hammered did he look
up, ask what lot number they were on, looked at his book, and asked what it sold for. Upon hearing that it
sold for $2500, he exclaimed loudly "My customer would have paid $5000!"
When the auctioneer asked the successful bidder if he would allow the lot to be re-opened, the bidder said
"No problem" and the lot was re-bid. Smiles in the audience turned into laughter when no one would start
the bidding, waiting for the dealer with the $5000 customer bid. He finally opened at $1000, and a dozen
other dealers slowly bid him up to $4500, each one turning to stare at him after placing their bid.
The major player finally gave up and bid $5000, winning the lot to immense applause. He had been hoping to
buy the lot for around $2500 and sell it to his customer for the full $5000, and his profit vanished. He also had
to put up with a lot of grief from the auctioneer the rest of the night -- the auctioneer constantly reminded him
of the current lot number, and asked him a number of times if he was still awake.
Of course, playing "high bid" doesn't work so well if there are others in the auction, not included in this earlier game, who know what they're doing.
A case in point, the Carl Zelson(sp)? Family Collection (Stacks 2000ish). A complete run of raw minor coins in proof from 1892-1915. Totally intact, original, beautifully toned and superb. Recollection hazy now, but I would say the average grade of the silver was PR66. 5-7 players played "high bid", though plenty enough were not invited or abstained.
Sometimes "high bid" is played like liar's poker in that you bid high enough to win, but in "high bid" you don't get called, except to split. But then by someone else or others in the room. And of course people who have played are barred from the bidding up the "high bidder". Break the rules and you're barred from the group, whatever ad hoc it might be, and a dishonored player's rep went around quickly. Like a poker player who deals seconds. BTW I've heard of a coin dealer who does this, but he's such a poor player overall that they just let him keep coming back again.
And, in another unusual interpretation, which happened at Bass I on the patterns. Dealer A,B,C,D, etc had played pre-sale. Dealer "A" had the highest bid on a lot. After" A" had been pushed to his max and exceeded by an outsider, "B" came in above his previously stated and abided-by limit after abstaining as per agreement, but raised his appraisal after seeing how other dealers he respected had seen and priced the coin. After "B" bought the coin "A" decided "B" had violated the code and charged to the back of the room and knocked "B" to the ground. But they had a special relationship.
So, Zelson... I wasn't in on this one. Neither were maybe another 20 really sharp graders. The logistics and the egos made it impossible. .... An unassuming ex-employee of mine from the 80's (sometimes a PCGS grader) sees a 1903 25c as a PR70. He might have paid $25,300 or $29,900. So someone else saw it that way too. The underbidder had to make good his highest bid to the group.
BTW I completely missed this lot. The toning was not close to wonderful, let alone amazing, and it was a semi-cameo, maybe better than typical for this date, but . And both bidders missed a hairline. I think I remember my grade as 67+
It worked the other way too. Two lots later the underbidder on that lot bought the 1903 S$1 for maybe $46,200. He saw it as PR68+, Don't know how that one turned out. He'd previously bought several Morgan's in Eliasberg that graded PF68 but he had to finance them and they took a while to sell. The Zelson coin was finer. But a lot more for shot 69.
In the latter instance, as in many others, members of the ad hoc group might chortle with snarky glee about how much their transactional ally was forced to pay when they no longer had skin in the game. There was the prevalent suspicion (and rightly so) that almost anyone playing might occasionally be tactically faking a higher grade and price to win a lot privately and then had the room called his bluff. Or hoped it graded what they expected on a bad day rather than what the winner calculated and hoped on a good one. Jealousy, ego, schadenfreude, greed, aggression and narcissism. And enlightened self-interest dictated by respect for each other's technical and pricing abilities. A very variegated shifting stew of options to be considered and acted upon in what used to be a 20+ national auction sale itinerary. I miss Harvey Stack, off the podium for a hundred lots, making his mid-evening trek to the back if the room. We were earnestly chided "Anyone could walk in here and guess what's going on.You know what's happened before".
Ten years later, raw coins in major US auctions are done. Grading is tougher, and there's a broader base of retail. And many more agent bids. And many more saying "I can't talk about it", agent or not.
BTW Stacks, though a bit behind the curve for a while, came to consistently serve the best food on the auction circuit when selling in NY. I'm looking forward to Angelo's Margherita pizza at lot viewing alternating with mounds of NY deli treats.
<< <i>Sounds like MP >>
Rainbow Stars
What would that be called?
Damn straight it is.
<< <i>Is this collusion?
Damn straight it is. >>
Would it be different if the 2 commem dealers teamed up their eyes and wallets and split lots evenly? The consignor still wouldn't have the benefit of these 2 guys running
themselves up. Or what if they both decided to pass on the auction rather than run each other up, hoping to pick up some of the coins from other winning bidders?
Wondercoin
<< <i>Let's just say many of the stories here are why I basically do not allow my customers to auction their coins without setting "safety net" reserves. And even then ....
Wondercoin >>
The wisest course.
Forum AdministratorPSA & PSA/DNA ForumModerator@collectors.com | p 800.325.1121 | PSAcard.com
<< <i>
<< <i>Is this collusion?
Damn straight it is. >>
Would it be different if the 2 commem dealers teamed up their eyes and wallets and split lots evenly? They consignor still wouldn't have the benefit of these 2 guys running
themselves up. Or what if they both decided to pass on the auction rather than run each other up, hoping to pick up some of the coins from other winning bidders? >>
Bidder A and bidder B both are planning on bidding on coins in a particular series they specialize in. They get together before the auction and decide which coins each will bid on so as not to run the bid up on the other guy. Each have a limit set on the max they will go on a lot, so if bidder C comes along and outbids, they drop out of the bidding. If no one else bids above their bids on the lots they previously agreed on, they win the lots. Doesn't matter if they are collectors or dealers engaging in the collusion, but I bet we all know which group would be demonized for it.
Absolutely right. At least the consignor sold his coins. Does it really matter to him(her) who bids on the coins as long as they met the reserve?
Forum AdministratorPSA & PSA/DNA ForumModerator@collectors.com | p 800.325.1121 | PSAcard.com