1921 Peace Dollar (VAM-1H) - Struck from Satin Proof Dies

Stuart · December 17, 2012 1:44PM

Here's a new purchase that I made tonight. -- Coin appears to have above average strike and excellent mint luster with high eye appeal.
I'm looking forward to receiving it and examining it in hand.

1921 Peace Dollar (VAM-1H) - Struck from Satin Proof Dies

blu62vette · December 17, 2012 1:59PM

What are those spots around the date?

Stuart · December 17, 2012 2:02PM

<< What are those spots around the date? >>

B62V: I believe that they are Milk Spots, which are fairly common on both 1921 Peace & Morgan Dollars.

sniocsu · December 17, 2012 2:04PM

Beautiful!

coinsarefun · December 17, 2012 2:38PM

Very nice!!

BryceM · December 17, 2012 2:57PM

Ohhhh, nice one!

baseballjeff · December 17, 2012 2:59PM

Congrats! Is is already slabbed? Or are you biting at the bit wanting to get it slabbed?

Looks beautiful! I've been looking for a nice '21 Peace Dollar for my Type set for quite some time, and it's been tough.

Nickcap · December 17, 2012 7:56PM

I see that this is in an ANACS MS63 holder. Do you think it will cross PCGS?

crypto79 · December 17, 2012 9:31PM

<< << What are those spots around the date? >>

B62V: I believe that they are Milk Spots, which are fairly common on both 1921 Peace & Morgan Dollars. >>

I think you are applying a modern ASE problem to a series that it doesn't really effect. While a milk spot in its purest definition is a while residue spot from a chemical wash and those could be considered that. Most Older coins I have seen with "them" are from a non mint provided contamination such as dip residue, PVC with residual toning or the like. I would be shocked it those spots were not one of those explanations. Where as the most likely explanation for the ASE problem is a planchet wash or the like that leaves a residue that changes when exposed to certain environmental conditions.

Stuart · December 17, 2012 11:37PM

<>
NickCap: In reply to your above quoted post, I am not planning to cross this coin, and like it fine in its existing older ANACS-63 Holder.

Crypto79: With reference to your previous post: According to Dave Bowers & Wayne Miller (from Bowers Silver Dollar Encyclopedia)

"Some Peace dollars of this era have white spots on them, resembling dried milk. I am not aware of any way to satisfactorily remove these.

Wayne Miller says this: The most plausible explanation for these blotches is that the planchets were improperly washed and dried after they had emerged from the annealing ovens and subsequent acid bath. Also, an increase in the concentration of sulphuric acid and water solution used during this cleaning and polishing operation could have lightly etched the surface of the planchet in some places."

joeykoins · December 18, 2012 3:55AM

Beauuutiful Peace,Stuart.What I'm wondering about is the date? Are all 1921 Peace Dollars have the 9 in 1921,being overlapping by her neck? If so,first time I noticed.

crypto79 · December 18, 2012 4:26AM

<< <>
NickCap: In reply to your above quoted post, I am not planning to cross this coin, and like it fine in its existing older ANACS-63 Holder.

Crypto79: With reference to your previous post: According to Dave Bowers & Wayne Miller (from Bowers Silver Dollar Encyclopedia)

"Some Peace dollars of this era have white spots on them, resembling dried milk. I am not aware of any way to satisfactorily remove these.

Wayne Miller says this: The most plausible explanation for these blotches is that the planchets were improperly washed and dried after they had emerged from the annealing ovens and subsequent acid bath. Also, an increase in the concentration of sulphuric acid and water solution used during this cleaning and polishing operation could have lightly etched the surface of the planchet in some places." >>

While your reference is correct and I have read that before in the example of the book I owe in my library and I will admit I have noticed it before on a few of the thousands of peace dollars that I have handled. My point was that while I have seen it on a few (22p and 24P mainly) coins, I disagree with your assessment on what the spots on your coin are. I suspect Bowers, Miller and the dealers who handled the bulk bags of the 70s saw more quantity and considered it a problem when they sold rolls, but it isn't a major problem for the series and those spot don't look like what he is referring to in my eyes. But who knows I haven't seen the coin in hand and could be wrong.

In my experience the milk spots resemble haphazard water spots with solid white outlines and milky/translucent less dense centers in non-perfect circles in non-clustered patches. Those are clustered perfect circles that appear to be different. Just an observation and I would recommend taking the coin to a dealer. If you talk yourself into thinking they are ok with a flippant explanation and it turns out not to be true you won't find out until it either gets worse or you go to sell and at that point you will be left recourse less.

Stuart · December 18, 2012 1:51PM

Crypto79: Thanks very much for advising me based on your experience that the white spots depicted on the photo may be dip residue or some other contaminant. I'll have a close look at the coin when I receive it, and will let you know how they look after examining it in person.

JoeyKoins: In reply to your question, yes all Peace Dollars (not just 1921) have the 9 in 1921, slightly overlapped by the lower tip of Miss liberty's neck.

Lewy · December 22, 2012 2:16PM

Yes, I would agree that the white spots are post mint, but what in the world are "satin proof dies"? (Sounds like a pretty ridiculous notion to me).

BryceM · December 22, 2012 3:25PM

Milk spots on Peace dollars are exactly as Crypto described them. They are common on certain issues and almost never seen in others. They do not represent post-mint damage. What s happening on this coin does not appear to be the usual thing.

Stuart · December 22, 2012 3:35PM

<< but what in the world are "satin proof dies"? >>

Lewy: In reply to your above quoted question, the following VAMWorld web link explains diagnostics for the 1921 (VAM-1H) Peace Dollar that was struck using Satin Proof dies.

Also for reference please see this Previous 1921 (VAM-1H) Peace Dollar Forum Thread

Lewy · December 24, 2012 1:08PM

Thanks for that info Stu, and I do realize that you did not come up with the description. Despite what is said ATS, (and it does not surprise me), but there is not, (and never was) any animal as a satin proof die. Proof coins were struck from normally annealed dies not unlike any other dies used for business or proof strikes. The proofs (be they satin or mirrored) were the result of planchet polishing or lack of it, coupled with the increased pressure of a medal press rather than the Morgan & Orr used for business strikes........ As far as the horrible file marks exhibited on the dies used to strike your coin, I find it hard to believe that the Philly mint would choose such dies to strike proofs, and I might suggest that inadvertant increased pressure of the Morgan & Orr coupled with improperly annealed planchets may be to blame for the deep impressions (consequentially proof like coins rather than intentionally struck proofs).

milkcoin · December 24, 2012 1:12PM

<< What are those spots around the date? >>

Definitely milk spots to my estimation.

johnny9434 · December 25, 2012 3:26AM

nice strike. ( milk spots or not )

Stuart · December 27, 2012 9:24AM

The following direct quote from Page 41 of Roger Burdette's (RWB's) 2008 "A Guide Book of Peace Dollars" may help clarify some of the discussion points earlier in this thread:

Simultaneous with production of the 1921 circulation coins, engraver Morgan had Sandblast and Satin Proofs made. The Proof dies were from the same hubs as production dies but were made with greater care in impressing the design, and the coins were struck on a medal press.

1921 Peace Dollar (VAM-1H) - Struck from Satin Proof Dies

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