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Johnson's comments at signing of '65 Coinage Act....
savoyspecial
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Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
He must have been listening to Casey Kasem right beforehand.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
If anybody has any idea of hoarding our silver coins, let me say this. Treasury has a lot of silver on hand, and it can be, and it will be used to keep the price of silver in line with its value in our present silver coin. There will be no profit in holding them out of circulation for the value of their silver content.
<< <i>"If anybody has any idea of hoarding our silver coins, let me say this. Treasury has a lot of silver on hand, and it can be, and it will be used to keep the price of silver in line with its value in our present silver coin. There will be no profit in holding them out of circulation for the value of their silver content. >>
Interesting that it took less than 5 years for silver to disappear from circulation.
Also interesting that LBJ probably knew when he gave this speech that the government was going to grab as much silver as they could from circulation, despite his comments contrary to that.
Third interesting thing is that I still believe that, given LBJ's interest in coinage, that there is a decent chance that somewhere the LBJ estate has one or two of those "unissued, illegal to own" 1964-D Peace dollars. And if this such coin(s) do turn up, wonder whether or not the government will pursue the coin(s) as "stolen". My bet is that the government will turn their head the other way and ignore the issue. Which is of course the same thing they would do if you or I came up with a 1964-D Peace dollar.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Johnson's conversation with Joe Haggar ordering pants is funnier.
http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/prestapes/lbj_haggar.html
Are such known?
<< <i>Johnson's conversation with Joe Haggar ordering pants is funnier.
http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/prestapes/lbj_haggar.html >>
...linkified.
and a few breaths later.....
"...Treasury has a lot of silver on hand, and it can be, and it will be used to keep the price of silver in line"
so, which is it??
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>"Now, all of you know these changes are necessary for a very simple reason--silver is a scarce material"
and a few breaths later.....
"...Treasury has a lot of silver on hand, and it can be, and it will be used to keep the price of silver in line"
so, which is it?? >>
Yes.
<< <i>quote
If anybody has any idea of hoarding our silver coins, let me say this. Treasury has a lot of silver on hand, and it can be, and it will be used to keep the price of silver in line with its value in our present silver coin. There will be no profit in holding them out of circulation for the value of their silver content. >>
He had no idea.
<< <i>His comments were very short-sighted. >>
He could have actually believed that the government could suppress the price of silver
nearly indefinitely. The US government owned some 4,000,000,000 OZt at the time he
made the comments. Of course what he didn't anticipate was the lack of will to hold the
price down in the coming years. The government just decided not to get a lot less money
for the silver than $1.29 an ounce.
The Fed didn't start removing silver from circulation until July, 1968 when it became appar-
ent that the government wasn't going to do enough selling to protect the price.
<< <i>Reading the comments, I wonder if the half dollar sized Martha Washington piece in that plastic-encased set he was holding was made of 40% silver clad?
Are such known? >>
Most of the patterns were made in quarter size. Many many different alloys and
claddings were used before the 75/ 25 (100%) was settled upon. I believe that
one or two are in the possession of the Smithsonian and the only surviving ones
of this nature are the "Gardiner's Island" types.
If he had the half dollar type it should have been 40% clad by July of 1965.
<< <i>"Now, all of you know these changes are necessary for a very simple reason--silver is a scarce material"
and a few breaths later.....
"...Treasury has a lot of silver on hand, and it can be, and it will be used to keep the price of silver in line"
so, which is it?? >>
Both.
I believe they knew the coin shortage was largely the result of silver hoarding
and used coin collectors as a means to deflect attention. It wasn't so much penny
and nickel production spiraling out of control starting in 1962 as it silver. They
couldn't just ramp up silver production without beginning to deplete supplies.
I suspect there might have some unannounced agreement at Bretton Woods
to slow world silver coin production and the US was one of the last countries
to switch. As one country after another ceased silver coin production it's possi-
ble that this added to the stress on US supplies and was a factor in the spiral-
ing production.
less than a year earlier and they actually struck silver dimes with the 1964 date into 1966.
In effect as well was a freeze on the 1965 date but this would soon be lifted. The govern-
ment was blaming coin collectors for the shortage;
"The new coins are not going to have a scarcity value either." (the first modern basher
To discourage hoarding the government eliminated mint marks, dates, mint sets, and proof
sets. They were considering a bill in Congress that would outlaw modern coin collecting as
well as much of classic coin collecting. In actuality though just the exceedingly poor quality
and the debasement of the new coins probably would have sufficed to stifle any interest.
The Coinage Act of 1965 is a remarkable piece of legislation.
Unfortunately, the text no longer shows up on a quick google search.
<< <i>
<< <i>"If anybody has any idea of hoarding our silver coins, let me say this. Treasury has a lot of silver on hand, and it can be, and it will be used to keep the price of silver in line with its value in our present silver coin. There will be no profit in holding them out of circulation for the value of their silver content. >>
Interesting that it took less than 5 years for silver to disappear from circulation.
Also interesting that LBJ probably knew when he gave this speech that the government was going to grab as much silver as they could from circulation, despite his comments contrary to that. >>
Seems they were hoping the public would ignore Gresham's Law while the government followed it.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I did not like this bill then and did not look forward to the new clad coinage. The date freeze and taking the mm's off really ticked me off-not to mention the suspension of proof and mint sets. We should have 1965 and 1966 dated silver dimes and quarters as that is when a lot of the 1964 dated coins were minted. We should also have 1965 and 1966 and 1967- D and perhaps S mint coins.
Bob
At least things got somewhat back to normal in 1968, with the return of proof sets and mint marks. I remember being totally surprised at the return of the "S" mint mark after an absence of 13 years.
<< <i>The act itself is a pretty interesting read. >>
Maybe they even read this one before they voted on it.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>Johnson's conversation with Joe Haggar ordering pants is funnier.
http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/prestapes/lbj_haggar.html >>
LBJ was a piece of work, the things he did and said are priceless.
<< <i>When did silver start going up, and when did people start pulling silver coins out of circulation? >>
About a minute and thirty seconds after the press release.
<< <i>I remember thge clad quarters first coming out. I also remember banks refusing to give the new quarters to individuals aking for them. They might be evil coin collecting hoarders. >>
Indeed.
Also a lot of people tried dismantling the first clad issues. The clad strips were forced together
hydraulically under very high pressure and then dynamite was set off above the press to complete
the bonding process. Of course most of the coins were far too solid to take apart and essentially
a single piece of metal. In the early years there were a lot of clads that separated but these were
identifiable by the sound they made or you could see they weren't properly bonded.
It was a couple months before they showed up in change with any regularity and the silver coins
were still being made into '66 and released almost into 1968.
It was many years before the government stopped their war on coin collectors and 1996 before
they wanted to encourage collecting.
<< <i>Don't forget that there was also a ban on melting silver coins from May 1967-May 1969.. The government finally gave in to the pressure put on them by silver users, but by 1969 enough clad coins were in circulation to alleviate any coin shortage. Some guys disobeyed the ban and melted them anyways. Yes, LBJ blamed coin collectors for the supposed coin shortage. I did not believe him then. But now, looking back in retrospect, I think he may have been correct as there are still many BU rolls of cents and nickels on the market or in private collections from the 1956-1964 years. And they are very cheap to obtain, especially the 1959-1964 rolls.
I did not like this bill then and did not look forward to the new clad coinage. The date freeze and taking the mm's off really ticked me off-not to mention the suspension of proof and mint sets. We should have 1965 and 1966 dated silver dimes and quarters as that is when a lot of the 1964 dated coins were minted. We should also have 1965 and 1966 and 1967- D and perhaps S mint coins.
>>
I think for most practical purposes the coin shortage was over by mid-'67 when they
annnounced normal dating and mint marks would resume. There was still a lot of silver
in circulation which would have to be replaced with clad but mintages plummeted in '68
and '69. They also resumed minting mint and proof sets in '68.
All the '65 to '67 coinage was minted in San Francisco without mint marks. Most of the
dies might have been retired SMS dies but this is not established. Philladelphia, I don't
believe, struck any half dollars between 1964 and 1971.
In 1964 a cursory examination of the dates on the coins showed that collectors were
not a primary cause of the coin shortage. If collectors were the primary cause then cir-
culating coins would have shown a similar absolute number removed for each date mak-
ing the lower mintage dates relatively scarce. This just didn't exist. Coins like 1941 nic-
kels showed up with a similar frequency as 1958-D's implying only that older coins were
suffering attrition. There were stagering numbers of coins set asiude but these paled
in comparison to the mintages.
<< <i>When did silver start going up, and when did people start pulling silver coins out of circulation? >>
The government started crying about the dwindling silver supplies way back in
1962 and it might have been this more than anything that started the public hoard-
ing. But, it made no sense in a sane world that paid 4% interest on deposits to tie
your money up in silver that was worth only 80% of your money. The average Joe
didn't have access to silver futures and ETF's so was willing to forego the interest
and store coin.
It wasn't until early 1968, if memory serves, that the price of silver actually got high
enough to sell silver coin at more than face value and many many people started
the hoarding. As silver ratcheted higher more people jumped on board but it was
all gone by mid-1970 in any case.
out to be a huge blessing. The coins in circulation were just all picked over by thousands of
collectors even by 1958. A lot of the best coins were gone by the end of WW II.
The introduction of clads gave me a huge playground virtually pristine.
Johnson was wrong on two scores when he said the silver and new clad would circulate
side by side for many years. It's not only the silver that's missing but most of the clad as
well.
I just looked at a sample of 250 clad dimes from circulation and only 3.6% of them were
from the 1960's (and a third of these were culls). There should have been around 9% if
all these coins survived so the implied attrition is up over 60% and is soaring. This can't
be the effect of collectors because the survivors are in better than typical grade with some
as high as VF+.
It's hard to be;lieve the rapidity with which the circulating clads are changing. Just in the
last ten years the faces of the coins in pocket change are hugely different.
I went through a sample of 198 eagle reverse and states issues as well and the states
coins are up to 56.1% of the coins in circ. There was only a single non-cull from the '60's
and it is a G 1965!
I haven't updated the numbers in years but I'd guess the attrition of 1965 dimes is at about
62% now and '65 quarters at 55%. Another startling thing is the generally low quality of
most of the states coins. AU's are already becoming a thing of the past and there are a dis-
proportionate number of culls. There are still a few Uncs (and super sliders) around though.
<< <i>In the summer of 1966 clad dimes were quite scarce in the immediate Boston area. There were plenty of silver ones. Meanwhile 250 miles away in Bangor, Maine clad dimes were very common. >>
I believe these sorts of phenomena are typically caused by economic forces.
There are two primary forces at work. The obvious one is the economic vitality of
the area or federal researve district region. If the economy is extremely strong
then new coin will need to flow into it to replace old coin and fill the voids created
by new economic activity. If an area is extremely weak then new coins won't be
needed. The other force works almost outside the macroeconomic conditions and
is the aggregate total of how much coin people allow to accumulate before they
take it to the bank. In 1965 coins were worth a lot more than today so this total
was much smaller but it still varied dependent on the individuals and their person-
al economic fortunes. All else being equal some districts tend to require more or
less coinage for the same economic conditions. There are, obviously, many minor
or immeasureable forces at work as well such as net migration and population
shifts.
The forces can add up to have a very dramatic effect on what the coinage looks
like in one region compared to another or over time. Coins that actually circulate
will eventually redistribute. Right now I hear the Puerto Rican coinage contains
lots of recently dated coins and even 2009 issues which aren't seen in this area at
all (except quarters and cents). This is mixed with large numbers of very heavily
worn older coins. These coins will take a very long time to mix since the physical
economy is isolated from the rest of the country and dependent on boat and plane
traffic for mixing. In modern times people don't spend much change and avoid
accumulating it so mixing might never be complete.
<< <i>All 2009 and later coins are rather uncommon in the Boston area. >>
Most are here as well but we get a good supply of new quarters straight through and a lot
of the dimes since 2009. I've yet to see an '09 dime. One cent coins are not so common since
2007 but a few of all of them are around.