Beginning of the end for the + grades?

DeliaBug · October 29, 2012 1:07AM

I wonder how this will play out and how it may affect coins in + holders.

Lawsuit over + usage for grades

copperhunter · October 29, 2012 1:10AM

Sour grapes....

DoubleEagle59 · October 29, 2012 1:15AM

I must admit I didn't read the whole article but what I got from it was the originator is stating that 'eye appeal' and the use of the '+' sign to denote eye appeal (and this is important to note) is the sole use of this original person.

PCGS does use the '+' sign granted, but it's my understanding it's not for eye appeal.

Rather, it's to denote a slightly higher grade or an 'in-between' grade, not solely dependent on eye appeal.

I'm no lawyer, but I don't think PCGS has anything to worry about and the '+' usage on PCGS slabs will continue to be used.

ColonelJessup · October 29, 2012 1:21AM

My understanding is the the PCGS "+" grades are for technical quality, not eye appeal. I believe the ATS designation is awarded for the same reason. "Marketing" based on his AURA concept (from what I read in the link provided) is not part of this contribution.

Remember, Allan Hager of Accugrade invented slabs.

blu62vette · October 29, 2012 1:24AM

There was another thread with a bunch of discussion on this, here you go:

link

RYK · October 29, 2012 1:28AM

Does this mean that I will have to return my "+" grade slabs?

fc · October 29, 2012 1:31AM

<< Does this mean that I will have to return my "+" grade slabs?

>>

Not at all. In 10 years there will be a thread on this forum where these + slabs are highly collectible and demand huge premiums just for the slab with a +. Hold on tight to them because the price is going to the moon!

DeliaBug · October 29, 2012 1:34AM

<< There was another thread with a bunch of discussion on this, here you go:

link >>

Yes I did read that. This update was a review of the case and whether they would allow it to proceed or toss it. Apparently, it is proceeding.

DennisH · October 29, 2012 1:56AM

I doubt it will be the beginning of the end.

PTVETTER · October 29, 2012 2:04AM

I may be wrong, but above average eye appeal would be a star and
the + would be for the grade related to surfaces, details and luster.

NotSure · October 29, 2012 2:07AM

There may be a VERY remote possibility the TPG's throw him a bone, but '+' grading will continue as normal (wonder why he didn't pitch to the 3rd and the 4th ebay approved TPG's?). Also, how many times had that topic been discussed here, prior to theTPG's instituting it, (ways of officially designating a coin that is above average for it's grade....then along comes the company that also does just that with a sticker)? The guy probably got the idea from these very forums and was the only one to actually 'pitch' it.

As copperhunter stated prior, sour grapes.

edited for spelling

DIMEMAN · October 29, 2012 2:07AM

As messed up as our judicial system is ........ anything is possible!

Jcarney · October 29, 2012 2:15AM

<< I may be wrong, but above average eye appeal would be a star and
the + would be for the grade related to surfaces, details and luster. >>

At NGC, yes.

RB1026 · October 29, 2012 2:22AM

Sounds to me as though it will be a windfall for a few attorneys and not much else. Unless he can prove that a TPG is using his system, I can't see how he has been damaged. The "+" sign is part of the public domain as the judge states. He can't monopolize it so that no one else can use it any more than I could copyright and trademark the number "7" or a "?".

If I am reading it correctly, he developed a system he believes defines "eye appeal" using some form of scale he devised yet my understanding is that the + is used by the TPG's for "tweener" grades. So....a PCGS AU58+ coin is really an AU58.5. It makes sense to me, because not all AU58s are equal. Even the slightest touch of wear should knock a coin from the MS ranks, but some 58's have virtually no wear while others have more, but not enough to warrant a downgrade into 55. As far as I can see, the "+" grade was developed as a response to the model CAC developed with its green and gold stickers.

I can understand why this party has a gripe, from a certain point of view but don't think it will meet the legal standards necessary to win damages or alter the current landscape. Again, sounds to me as though it's just going to be a large attorney bill for the parties involved.

scoobydeux · October 29, 2012 2:47AM

<< Remember, Allan Hager of Accugrade invented slabs.

>>

I thought it was Al Gore. No that was the Internet:

roadrunner · October 29, 2012 2:55AM

The "plus" used for grading has been around at least since the mid-1970's. I know I borrowed that idea from other numismatic firms that employed it. I have numerous
auction catalogs in my possession from 1974 and later where I scribbled down plus grades all over the place. In some cases I used 2 or more + signs (ie 60++ to denote
a liner 63 coin and 63++ to denote a near 65 coin). It's been common knowledge for 40 yrs or longer that 2 coins in the same generic grade could be quite different in overall quality.

LindeDad · October 29, 2012 2:55AM

As long as the granters of +'s can say the plus is not solely for what Mr. Blake says it is for he will lose. Just hoping to be bought off anyway.

copperhunter · October 29, 2012 3:29AM

Maybe instead of + grades, they can put L@@k! On the slabs, LOL!

stealer · October 29, 2012 4:14AM

<< As messed up as our judicial system is ........ anything is possible! >>

It's pretty sad. Almost as sad as the lawsuit over slander.

illini420 · October 29, 2012 6:09AM

Those of you saying that the PCGS plus grade has nothing to do with eye appeal are mistaken. Sure NGC has a star grade specifically for eye appeal, but the PCGS + is not just for an in-between grade either.

From the PCGS website it is clear that eye appeal is considered for a plus grade coin:

"Plus Grades
High end coins for the grade, i.e. "plus" grades, cannot have negative or below average eye appeal for the grade."

You can read more about it on the following page from the PCGS website which was posted back around the time "The Big One" was announced:

Link to PCGS Page on Eye Appeal

scoobydeux · October 29, 2012 6:32AM

q]Those of you saying that the PCGS plus grade has nothing to do with eye appeal are mistaken. Sure NGC has a star grade specifically for eye appeal, but the PCGS + is not just for an in-between grade either.

From the PCGS website it is clear that eye appeal is considered for a plus grade coin:

"Plus Grades
High end coins for the grade, i.e. "plus" grades, cannot have negative or below average eye appeal for the grade."

[/L] >>

This does not guarantee a + for eye appeal.

Many MS CBHs with the + are not particularly attractive, but have less bagmarks or better luster than usual for the grade. Conversely, many attracive CBHs do not get the plus fr average/below average strike/luster /bagmarks.

renomedphys · October 29, 2012 6:55AM

Having spoken to Duane about his AURA system in the development stage, I can tell you that the primary reasoning for its development was to fill a void in TPG grading. As you can likely tell, the idea came from viewing many coins in the same grade (at the time my, and perhaps his primary focus was Matte Proof Lincolns), but of varying degrees of desirability. For instance, say two coins both graded PR66RB, and one being somewhat flat in appearance, with very little iridescent luster, and another that can be viewed from almost any angle, having luster that pops, and attractive multi-colored hues abounding. In the marketplace, coins of the former category are often priced at or below guide values, and coins of the latter category are often priced at multiples of guide values, especially when both coins are members of a particular issues "top pop".

As coins are often sold to buyers on the basis of a single photograph, it's easy to see that pricing can be manipulated based on the skill of the photographer. I have certainly been burned in this regard, getting a coin in hand that leaves you wondering how the photographer ever got it to look a certain way. I have also bought coins right at guide prices (or below) based on a bad photo, or none at all, and been so pleasantly surprised as to the coin's appearance that I had to wonder whether or not the dealer was simply blind, or completely out of touch.

Being astute collectors such as yourselves, you have all likely noticed this phenomenon.

Duane's idea was simply to affix an AURA grade to the end of the technical grade that would tell the end buyer what to expect in terms of eye appeal... which is exactly what the "plus" does in practice.

Elcontador · October 29, 2012 7:12AM

Based on what I have seen, for at least the last ten years, in dealing with Unc. coins (and the numerical higher the grade, imo, the more this is true), PCGS weighs eye appeal more than anything else. I've seen many coins get what to me is a one point grade bump because of outstanding eye appeal, even though grading technically, a tick mark here or there would theoretically limit said coin's grade to the number one less than its slabbed grade.

The plus, the sticker and the star all indicate that a coin is either solid or outstanding for the grade. I can see how these designations make marketing particular coins easier to do. I also see how said designations help a newbie to a series distinguish what is and what is not a nice coin for a particular grade.

But practically speaking, if you know how to grade a specific series in a specific grade, I don't think you need any of these designations. Nice coins for the grade have always brought more money than coins in the same grade that were nothing special (for the grade).

Yes, I would pay more for an attractive for the grade coin than for a mediocre for the grade counterpart (though I probably would pass on the latter in the first place). But if I know how to grade a coin, I don't need these designations. The other issue which is not addressed re the sticker, plus and star, is that as good as these experts are, occasionally, they make mistakes. Imo, you should not be a buyer of these coins if you cannot spot such a mistake.

illini420 · October 29, 2012 7:18AM

<< Based on what I have seen, for at least the last ten years, in dealing with Unc. coins (and the numerical higher the grade, imo, the more this is true), PCGS weighs eye appeal more than anything else. I've seen many coins get what to me is a one point grade bump because of outstanding eye appeal, even though grading technically, a tick mark here or there would theoretically limit said coin's grade to the number one less than its slabbed grade. >>

PCGS openly admits that in the article I linked a few posts above... "Amazing eye appeal can add up to a full point to the "technical" grade."

johnny9434 · October 30, 2012 5:13AM

<< As messed up as our judicial system is ........ anything is possible! >>

i dont see the lawyers hurting any in this not so good economy

Elcontador · October 30, 2012 7:53AM

<< 

<< As messed up as our judicial system is ........ anything is possible! >>

i dont see the lawyers hurting any in this not so good economy

>>

Actually, they are hurting. Big firms have been cutting back on new hires in the last several years. More top law school grads in recent memory are having hard time finding jobs (moreso for grads of so-so rates law schools).

Bonuses in big firms aren't what they used to be and a number of equity partners have taken pay cuts (in my sister's firm, pay cuts are the norm, not the exception). Lawyers are being pushed to do more with reduced staffing.

Also, clients are objecting to by the hour billing and more of them are demanding fixed fees for particular jobs.

The Wall St. Journal has written three or four articles about these topics in the last year.

MilkmanDan · October 30, 2012 8:04AM

<< i dont see the lawyers hurting any in this not so good economy

>>

True in some areas (patent lawyers) but not true if you ask new grads. It's tough to find a job coming out of law school right now.

Justacommeman · October 30, 2012 7:16PM

<< 

<< I may be wrong, but above average eye appeal would be a star and
the + would be for the grade related to surfaces, details and luster. >>

At NGC, yes. >>

And it's possible to have both. MJ

CoinRaritiesOnline · October 30, 2012 10:01PM

I find the + and * together to be very cumbersome, and would propose this simple solution:

Justacommeman · October 30, 2012 10:06PM

+

MJ

segoja · October 30, 2012 10:45PM

Only in America!!!

This sounds like an unsolicited idea that was pitched to NGC. If NGC already had that idea, that would preclude the plaintiff in this case from realizing any gains.

We all have used the term PQ, better than average, + , smiley face (now CAC) etc to describe coins that are a bit better for the grade, so how does this guy have exclusive rights to that???

Just my unbiased opinion

MICHAELDIXON · October 30, 2012 11:08PM

I don't see where the lawsuite has merit. The + has been used for eye appeal as far back as I can remember (early 1970's). The gentleman's system might be unique, but the idea has been around for a long, long time.

MacCrimmon · October 30, 2012 11:59PM

I long for the day when PCGS adopts a 100-point grading scale and employing "+" notations as well.........yeah, that's the ticket!!!

Unknown · October 31, 2012 12:13AM

This content has been removed.

DeliaBug · October 31, 2012 1:01AM

<< I long for the day when PCGS adopts a 100-point grading scale and employing "+" notations as well.........yeah, that's the ticket!!! >>

I long for the day the numerical system is abandoned in favor of the old descriptive system. It'll never happen but I can still dream.

JustNeedCoins · October 31, 2012 1:20PM

All the article says is that they may file proceed. This is a far cry from winning.

Beginning of the end for the + grades?

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