Fighting back vs. eBay scammer UPDATED 9/25

Greeniejr · September 21, 2012 2:09AM

I am in the middle of an interesting situation with an eBay scammer and might actually succeed at fighting back. So the story goes like this. I sold the guy a coin for $616 and sent it with delivery confirmation (we accidently missed clicking signature confirmation on their system) to the guy down in rural Florida. The guy received the package on 9/7/12 and upon receipt realized there was no signature confirmation so he started emailing us saying he never got the package. He claimed it was either delivered to the wrong address or it was taken from his mail box. It is interesting that the emails started the day the package was delivered to him. Well he filed an item not received claim and eBay granted the full refund because there was no signature. All logical arguments were shot down with "no signature, you lose".

Well because I am mean and spiteful I decided to call the post office in his city (small rural place on the border of FL and GA) and the nice lady working there looked into it. Her records showed that it was picked up at the end her lunch break when she typically will let people in to pick up packages despite the break. She was the only employee working and she remembers giving the guy his package in person at the post office. I am getting a sworn statement from her faxed to eBay so hopefully hard evidence will help turn this case in our favor. Don't give in to fraud, fight back no matter how hard eBay wants to facilitate it.

Update at end

mbogoman · September 21, 2012 2:13AM

Good luck, and keep us posted...

LanceNewmanOCC · September 21, 2012 2:15AM

.
if all that you present is true, then good job and i do hope it will work out in your favor.

also would like to see people like that removed from ebay
.

JamesMurray · September 21, 2012 2:19AM

Im confused as to why a delivery confirmation letter/parcel was picked up at a post office , that scenario comes into play with a non delivered signature delivery but a delivery confirmation is delivered with no hold ups.If it went to a post office box i can see why the buyer attended the post office but it wouldnt involve a post office employee i wouldnt have thought.Our post office is about as small as ive seen , little more than a shack but the post office boxes are in an area that doesnt involve the front counter.I guess im just confused as to how a delivery confirmation wasnt simply delivered.

Greeniejr · September 21, 2012 2:31AM

Guy must have tracked it and saw it was at the PO to be delivered later in the day.

Unknown · September 21, 2012 2:32AM

This content has been removed.

JamesMurray · September 21, 2012 2:34AM

That being the case i hope the USPS nails his a$$ to the barndoor,gotta be some kind of mail fraud...as i'm typing that i'm wondering , what is he guilty of in the eyes of the USPS disregarding paypal for the moment.

guitarwes · September 21, 2012 2:35AM

<< Guy must have tracked it and saw it was at the PO to be delivered later in the day. >>

Probably. At my small town PO, if a package is addressed to my home address and the postal workers know it's there and see me come in to check my PO box, they will scan it and hand it to me.

Hope you win this one Greeniejr. Gonna be hard for the 'bay to fight a sworn statement from a postal worker at the delivery PO.

AUandAG · September 21, 2012 2:38AM

If you insured it, that would require a signature and would not be left in the
mailbox. If he was not at home he could have received an "insured package"
notification and then gone to the PO to pick up later in the day. Small town
Postal employees get to know their delivery folks.

Good luck,
bob

LindeDad · September 21, 2012 2:42AM

Refer the case with evidence to the Postal Inspector Generals office as Postal Fraud also.

Postal Imspetor Hot Line

As soon as he is hit with that eBay and PayPal should be on your side. And it helps us all to show the system works, the news will go like wild fire though out eBay.

Greeniejr · September 21, 2012 2:45AM

<< Refer the case with evidence to the Postal Inspector Generals office as Postal Fraud also.

Postal Imspetor Hot Line

As soon as he is hit with that eBay and PayPal should be on your side. And it helps us all to show the system works, the news will go like wild fire though out eBay.

>>

I am waiting for the post office to come through with the letter. At that point I will let the real games begin

JamesMurray · September 21, 2012 2:46AM

This will be interesting , good luck Greeniejr

LanceNewmanOCC · September 21, 2012 2:50AM

<< If you insured it, that would require a signature and would not be left in the
mailbox.bob >>

i've received many packages insured that didn't require signature. they were just sitting in my mailbox. MUCH to my dismay.

it seems to me less risk to go with signature with NO insurance than insurance with no signature. just imo
.

guitarwes · September 21, 2012 2:53AM

<< 

<< If you insured it, that would require a signature and would not be left in the
mailbox.bob >>

i've received many packages insured that didn't require signature. they were just sitting in my mailbox. MUCH to my dismay.

it seems to me less risk to go with signature with NO insurance than insurance with no signature. just imo
. >>

In the OP, it was a $616 package and the seller would likely insure it for more than $500 which requires a signature. If you've gotten packages like this in your PO or on your front doorstep, you need to talk to your Postmaster.

braddick · September 21, 2012 3:10AM

His next move is, "empty box" and you still lose.

JamesMurray · September 21, 2012 3:13AM

<< His next move is, "empty box" and you still lose. >>

No , it can't be ... how can he now say the box is empty if he didn't recieve a box ? The delivery confirmation tracking is going to say delivered so he can't turn around and say it arrived today.I think he's shot his bolt and has to go with it even if it is a losing proposition.

Ahrensdad · September 21, 2012 3:15AM

<< His next move is, "empty box" and you still lose. >>

In that case he admits he is a liar. "I didn't get it, yes I did, but no I didn't".

Go get 'em.

derryb · September 21, 2012 3:18AM

<< 

<< 

<< If you insured it, that would require a signature and would not be left in the
mailbox.bob >>

i've received many packages insured that didn't require signature. they were just sitting in my mailbox. MUCH to my dismay.

it seems to me less risk to go with signature with NO insurance than insurance with no signature. just imo
. >>

In the OP, it was a $616 package and the seller would likely insure it for more than $500 which requires a signature. If you've gotten packages like this in your PO or on your front doorstep, you need to talk to your Postmaster. >>

From the domestic mail manual:
"For mail insured for more than $200.00, the USPS maintains a delivery record (which includes the recipient's signature) for a specified period of time. "

This is why USPS uses two different insurance forms - one for $200 or less (black form) and one over $200 (blue form). Also explains why some insured packages are left without getting a signature. If OP purchased insurance for more than $200 USPS will have a signature on file if they did their job correctly. While an insurance signature will not meet Paypal's signature requirement (it is not viewable on line), it may help the OP prove his case with Paypal. Note that "electronic return receipt" does meet paypal's signature requirement, is cheaper than signature confirmation, is viewable online and is purchased at the counter without need of any postal form. With electronic return receipt the shipping number becomes the tracking number for viewing the sig on line. I only use this with registered mail and am not sure if it is available for other classes of mail.

BAJJERFAN · September 21, 2012 3:25AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< If you insured it, that would require a signature and would not be left in the
mailbox.bob >>

i've received many packages insured that didn't require signature. they were just sitting in my mailbox. MUCH to my dismay.

it seems to me less risk to go with signature with NO insurance than insurance with no signature. just imo
. >>

In the OP, it was a $616 package and the seller would likely insure it for more than $500 which requires a signature. If you've gotten packages like this in your PO or on your front doorstep, you need to talk to your Postmaster. >>

From the domestic mail manual:
"For mail insured for more than $200.00, the USPS maintains a delivery record (which includes the recipient's signature) for a specified period of time. "

This is why USPS uses two different insurance forms - one for $200 or less (black form) and one over $200 (blue form). Also explains why some insured packages are left without getting a signature. If OP purchased insurance for more than $200 USPS will have a signature on file if they did their job correctly. While an insurance signature will not meet Paypal's signature requirement (it is not viewable on line), it may help the OP prove his case with Paypal. >>

Which is why if I send something insured, I won't pay for extra tracking, unless it is free like DC.

Broadstruck · September 21, 2012 3:25AM

Although I'm not big on blocking every single moronic ebayer mentioned on these boards...

Outing this fellows user name could save us all a lot of future headaches!

JamesMurray · September 21, 2012 3:36AM

<< Although I'm not big on blocking every single moronic ebayer mentioned on these boards...

Outing this fellows user name could save us all a lot of future headaches!

>>

silverman68 · September 21, 2012 3:41AM

If Ebay wants to push the signature thing then they should default all postage with the signature for items over $250. Sounds like a very shady buyer.
Hope you win, good luck

LanceNewmanOCC · September 21, 2012 4:28AM

<< In the OP, it was a $616 package and the seller would likely insure it for more than $500 which requires a signature. If you've gotten packages like this in your PO or on your front doorstep, you need to talk to your Postmaster. >>

that is what the situation was. my packages were not insured for over that amount. if i were thinking clearly i would have recalled that cut-off. thanks
.

M · September 21, 2012 4:46AM

I don't see stated anywhere it was insured, just he put DC instead of SC on the package by accident. Insured for $600 would have required a signature (but there isn't one).

Greeniejr · September 21, 2012 5:06AM

It was insured plus delivery confirmation. No signature confirmation.

19Lyds · September 21, 2012 5:11AM

<< .
if all that you present is true, then good job and i do hope it will work out in your favor.

also would like to see people like that removed from ebay
. >>

AND.......sent to jail since it is outright theft!

19Lyds · September 21, 2012 5:15AM

As a point of note, the US Post Office is NOT required to attempt delivery of packages that are more than 1/4 of a mile in distance "on a private road".
Some parts of rural America do not have "Group Mailboxes" for private roads. As such, those folks must go to their local Post Offices to receive their mail.

I know this since I live right on the 1/4 mile mark on a Private Road.

johnny9434 · September 21, 2012 5:27AM

keep us posted on the outcome of this please.

M · September 21, 2012 5:40AM

<< It was insured plus delivery confirmation. No signature confirmation. >>

On more than one occasion a postal employee has argued with me when I purchased SC with insurance (ebay sale), telling me I was throwing my money away. I just tell them the recipient paid for it instead of trying to explain the dumb rule, none of their business anyway. Best of luck, really hope you win this!

mrpotatoheadd · September 21, 2012 5:41AM

<< While an insurance signature will not meet Paypal's signature requirement (it is not viewable on line), it may help the OP prove his case with Paypal. >>

PayPal won't accept eBay feedback confirming receipt as proof of delivery, so good luck with that.

PerryHall · September 21, 2012 6:07AM

Once you get the sworn letter in hand, you may want to let this scammer know what is happening and that you are getting the postal inspectors and local law enforcement involved. If nothing else it may cause him to have a few sleepless nights and it may scare him into returning your money. Good luck and keep us up to date. We're all on your side.

renomedphys · September 21, 2012 6:51AM

Sounds like the buyer jumped into the quicksand hoping for an easy out. All in all, I think a pretty slimy move on his part.

mrearlygold · September 21, 2012 6:57AM

<< I am in the middle of an interesting situation with an eBay scammer and might actually succeed at fighting back. So the story goes like this. I sold the guy a coin for $616 and sent it with delivery confirmation (we accidently missed clicking signature confirmation on their system) to the guy down in rural Florida. The guy received the package on 9/7/12 and upon receipt realized there was no signature confirmation so he started emailing us saying he never got the package. He claimed it was either delivered to the wrong address or it was taken from his mail box. It is interesting that the emails started the day the package was delivered to him. Well he filed an item not received claim and eBay granted the full refund because there was no signature. All logical arguments were shot down with "no signature, you lose".

Well because I am mean and spiteful I decided to call the post office in his city (small rural place on the border of FL and GA) and the nice lady working there looked into it. Her records showed that it was picked up at the end her lunch break when she typically will let people in to pick up packages despite the break. She was the only employee working and she remembers giving the guy his package in person at the post office. I am getting a sworn statement from her faxed to eBay so hopefully hard evidence will help turn this case in our favor. Don't give in to fraud, fight back no matter how hard eBay wants to facilitate it. >>

You can run but you can't hide

Bochiman · September 21, 2012 7:04AM

Cool.
I hope it all works out and he gets what is coming to him (and it sure wasn't the coin)!

I hate scammers....on all sides of the fence

Wabbit2313 · September 21, 2012 7:47AM

I hope everyone knows that insurance purchased through USPS only covers 15 bucks, no matter how much you bought, UNLESS, you ship it Registered Insured.

Also, eBay does not care since you did not follow their rules about signature over $250.00. The sworn letter....ya right. Fact remains there is no signature, and you are screwed.

Finally, there is no proof this person is ripping you off. It could be anyone in the USPS, which seems far more likely to me.

Does it sound like this happened to me once before???

mrpotatoheadd · September 21, 2012 7:54AM

<< I hope everyone knows that insurance purchased through USPS only covers 15 bucks, no matter how much you bought, UNLESS, you ship it Registered Insured. >>

This is not true. Links have been posted here many times to the USPS website where it explains that numismatic items may be insured for full value.

edited to add... here you go:

4.0 Claims
4.1 Payable Claim
Insurance for loss or damage to insured, registered, or COD mail within the amount covered by the fee paid or within the indemnity limits for Express Mail as explained in 4.2 is payable for the following:

g. Fair market value of stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value, as determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors newsletters and trade papers.

TomB · September 21, 2012 7:58AM

<< I hope everyone knows that insurance purchased through USPS only covers 15 bucks, no matter how much you bought, UNLESS, you ship it Registered Insured.

Also, eBay does not care since you did not follow their rules about signature over $250.00. The sworn letter....ya right. Fact remains there is no signature, and you are screwed.

Finally, there is no proof this person is ripping you off. It could be anyone in the USPS, which seems far more likely to me.

Does it sound like this happened to me once before??? >>

The part in bold is incorrect.

grote15 · September 21, 2012 8:21AM

<< 

<< I hope everyone knows that insurance purchased through USPS only covers 15 bucks, no matter how much you bought, UNLESS, you ship it Registered Insured.

Also, eBay does not care since you did not follow their rules about signature over $250.00. The sworn letter....ya right. Fact remains there is no signature, and you are screwed.

Finally, there is no proof this person is ripping you off. It could be anyone in the USPS, which seems far more likely to me.

Does it sound like this happened to me once before??? >>

The part in bold is incorrect. >>

+1.

I collected on a claim for a lost packsge over $200 once. As long as you can provide "Proof of value' via a receipt or purchase order (paypal payment suffices) the Po will accept that as proof of value. It is NOT necessary to send a package via registered mail although it is a safer way to ship and you can insure a package for a higher amount than other forms of service.

JohnMaben · September 21, 2012 8:30AM

We've run into this situation numerous times and it's why we always first start by telling the customer that we will make every effort to get to the bottom of it, and U.S. Mail infractions are a federal offense. That's often does the trick right there, but when it doesn't we require a statement (affidavit) from the customer stating they did not receive it. It also says that should it turn up a month later, after we pay them, we still own it.

John

jessewvu · September 21, 2012 11:26AM

I had the same thing happen. Long story short, they would not accept a letter from post master. File a police report, that is the ONLY way you are going to get anywhere with PayPal. It took me 6 months to get my money back and it was only because I called ten every other day for 6 months.

My buyer said he didn't get it, then said it was an empty box after I provided signature confirmation.

Greeniejr · September 21, 2012 11:38AM

I am actually pursuing this matter on a second front as well. Since eBay is trying in some ways to court our industry, we do have contacts that are in a position to influence decisions and make things happen. I am not optimistic about it but if you take enough angles something is bound to work... or frustrate the hell out of me. I am staggering the start of each process because I don't have endless amounts of time. I will probably start the police report angle Tuesday before Yom Kippur and Vegas.

Cougar1978 · September 21, 2012 12:25PM

I think it is idiotic ebay even gets involved in these disputes (and I am sure this is one of the reasons ebay fees are so high). It should be between the seller, buyer, USPS, and their attorneys. It takes 6-8 weeks for USPS to perform their investigation yet here is this snippy corporate entity trying to make a decision.

I wish you best of luck in winning this dispute. If you have a buyer account and the guy trying to scam you sells stuff, why not buy a few things from him and neg him on all of them.

Cougar1978 · September 21, 2012 12:30PM

<< I hope everyone knows that insurance purchased through USPS only covers 15 bucks, no matter how much you bought, UNLESS, you ship it Registered Insured.

Also, eBay does not care since you did not follow their rules about signature over $250.00. The sworn letter....ya right. Fact remains there is no signature, and you are screwed.

Finally, there is no proof this person is ripping you off. It could be anyone in the USPS, which seems far more likely to me.

Does it sound like this happened to me once before??? >>

Not true at all. I recently was reimbursed on an insured claim on a $105 item.

Swampboy · September 21, 2012 1:31PM

notwilight · September 21, 2012 1:35PM

I'm concerned ebay/paypal, in their simplistic world, may freeze you out for not clicking signature confirmation. OTOH, I think the guy is likely to get some prison time. After that happens, ebay should cave for fear of the publicity: "Scammer in prison and eBay still won't refund my money."

--Jerry

braddick · September 21, 2012 2:34PM

<< 

<< His next move is, "empty box" and you still lose. >>

No , it can't be ... how can he now say the box is empty if he didn't recieve a box ? The delivery confirmation tracking is going to say delivered so he can't turn around and say it arrived today.I think he's shot his bolt and has to go with it even if it is a losing proposition. >>

Paypal doesn't care what the buyer claims is my point.
No signature on delivery/ no delivery confirmation = no Paypal seller's protection/warranty.

mrpotatoheadd · September 21, 2012 2:43PM

<< Paypal doesn't care what the buyer claims is my point.
No signature on delivery/ no delivery confirmation = no Paypal seller's protection/warranty. >>

That's been my experience. Any proof other than that doesn't count. Even the buyer's own words.

Jcarney · September 21, 2012 7:44PM

Since the postal employee is willing to give a sworn statement, I would also look into pressing charges.

TF · September 21, 2012 9:52PM

Call the police, sooner than later...they need to talk the employee at the post office while fresh in their mind.

coinhunters · September 21, 2012 11:30PM

This situation seems to be an ongoing problem for the USPS. Two months ago I sipped a Priority Mail, insured ( over $250.00) within the State of New York. The receipt was never signed and the reason I received from the USPS, is that he gets so many Priority packages, the receiver often times misses signing a receipt. Fortunately he has not claimed non-receipt, bust also has not acknowledged he received it either. He paid in advance, so until I hear from him he has not received it, I am in limbo with USPS as to going forward with a claim, however I could file for the fees I paid for the services.

ebaybuyer · September 22, 2012 1:26AM

ebay likely wont refund your money, no matter how much proof you have, one thing they dont like is egg on thier face. and as far as being "mean and spiteful" i dont see where protecting yourself is mean and spiteful. kind of like AZ being a "racist" state because they dont want it being overrun with illegal immigrants

Fighting back vs. eBay scammer UPDATED 9/25

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