Is it really that easy?

bbuckner22 · September 17, 2012 8:48AM

I sold a set to a guy (scammer) a couple of weeks back. Sent it in two large flat rate boxes. He gets the first box, calls Paypal saying the it is empty, no cards and Paypal puts a hold on those funds. The next day the second box arrives to this guy. Now, if I had just received an empty box instead of one weighing 45-50 lbs. the day before I'd probably check to see how heavy this next box was before I signed for it. But, even though he says the second box also was empty and weighed next to nothing he signed for that one too. Of course, he calls Paypal again. After going round and round with Paypal for over a week pointing out no one would have signed for a second box if it didn't weigh close to 50 lbs. unless he was a total scammer, they reversed the held funds back to him. Is that all it takes, you buy something, receive it and then say the box was empty and get your money back? So now I'm out the money it cost to ship him the cards, I'm out an entire PSA set, and I have not a dime to show for it. Oh yeah, because of this my account at Paypal has been frozen so I cannot received other payments. The post office said that chances are if an item showed that it was received I wouldn't be able to file for an insurance claim. Doesn't matter, the buyer/scammer still has the boxes that I would have to show to the post office, Paypal says he is not obligated to send them back. Suggestions?

gameusedhoop · September 17, 2012 9:05AM

If it was insured and you have the receipt showing it's weight, and he is claiming empty, I would have your Postmaster in your town contact the Postal Inspectors and open a case. They will be hesitant to do it, but if pressed on the matter they should relent (lots of paperwork for them).

The Inspectors will be able to obtain the chain of hands that the package went through all the way up to his carrier who would remember a 50 lb box or two to a specific address. Let your buyer know that you have contacted the Postal Inspectors and he could be hearing from them shortly. Many will "find" or have a neighbor "deliver" the item very quickly to prevent a mail fraud investigation if guilty. Let Paypal know you have contacted them also and offer to fax a copy of any report taken. Everyone involved will want you to give up and go away, it is easier for them that way, DON'T let it happen. Be a pain in the rear about it until you get some answers.

Also, please let us know who the buyer is so we don't have to deal with these issues until it is cleared up.

digicat · September 17, 2012 9:06AM

Did you sell these on Ebay?

Who's the scammer?

bbuckner22 · September 17, 2012 9:11AM

It was a deal off of Ebay. Trust me, I will out this guy as soon as I can. In response to gameusedhoop, I sent the set in flat rate boxes so I don't think they were ever weighed. I am going to check again at my post office in the morning to see if I have any options.

stangrider · September 17, 2012 9:15AM

If you have all the cert #'s stored somewhere you may be able to catch him red handed if he attempts to resell any of the cards. Hopefully this guy is caught and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. What a scumbag.

shagrotn77 · September 17, 2012 9:31AM

Sorry to hear about this. I hate that scumbags like that exist.

gameusedhoop · September 17, 2012 9:51AM

<< sent the set in flat rate boxes so I don't think they were ever weighed. >>

Everything is weighed at my office, even the flatties. They enter the tracking #'s etc at the same time. Assuming it was a window transaction should be OK. Hope it works out.

pomobileclk · September 17, 2012 9:52AM

If you brought it to the window and the clerk put it on the scale, the weight will be on your receipt , check your receipt.

vintageinvestments · September 17, 2012 9:52AM

Post his name and address.

mattinglymint23 · September 17, 2012 10:34AM

Hope it works out for you.

Yes, please out the scumbag as soon as you can.

WalterSobchak · September 17, 2012 10:48AM

Sorry to hear about this. That is the problem with a system where the buyer has virtually all the power.

<< If you have all the cert #'s stored somewhere you may be able to catch him red handed if he attempts to resell any of the cards. >>

This might be about all you can do.

CollectorAtWork · September 17, 2012 10:50AM

BTW, I "believe" that if this were done on ebay and not off ebay, the seller would be protected here from the "empty box" cases.

Dboneesq · September 17, 2012 10:54AM

Man that sucks. What a douchebag. If there is anything any of us can do to help, let us know. Also please keep us informed.

prthd · September 17, 2012 10:56AM

<< If you have all the cert #'s stored somewhere you may be able to catch him red handed if he attempts to resell any of the cards. Hopefully this guy is caught and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. What a scumbag. >>

+1000

What state does he live in.

mygotta · September 17, 2012 11:01AM

On Amazon it is as easy as that for the buyer to return things for any reason. I have had DVDs returned to Amazon, refund initiated. Once I recalled the item, there was no DVD in the case. Lots of jerks out there. And my guess, with this economy, people try to skirt the system even more so.

But this has never happened to me. I also sell on eBay so would want this guy on my block list ASAP.

tigerdean · September 17, 2012 11:01AM

OHHH MYYY. SCUMBAGS ON THE EARTH. LET's get a CU lynch mob together. There should be a hangin.

vladguerrero · September 17, 2012 11:05AM

I hate hearing crap like this...

calaban7 · September 17, 2012 11:19AM

Dave , I'm sorry this happened to you . It makes me sick to hear the state of people's hearts out in thief- land .

A number of years back when Ebay changed its feedback system and its protection system , I saw even then , how simple it would be to rip people off , with the blessings of Ebay for good measure . I have thousands of cards that I would LOVE to sell , but cannot stomach the evil that people do . I know in the end , the wrongs will be righted , but until then , one has to cover their butts as well as they're able .

My hope is that this will end well. ---- Sonny

PS--- In he mean time , OUT THE DOG !!!!!

JMDVM · September 17, 2012 11:24AM

This is theft and you need to keep the pressure on. I would request a meeting with the postmaster where you mailed it and demand to open a mail fraud case, especially if you have records of the weight and records from Paypal claiming he got 2 empty boxes. There is also a small chance that the set was stolen by a postal employee---not likely, but possible. As for the scumbags at Paypal, they are expanding their services to non- Ebay venues and businesses, so it shouldn't matter that you sold your set off Ebay. I recently bought and paid for a box of candy from a major candy company with Paypal----if I told Paypal that I got an empty box, would they have pulled the funds from the corporate entity?

MBMiller25 · September 17, 2012 11:37AM

WOW, I hate reading stuff like this. Please keep us posted on the outcome, I really hope this has a decent ending.

EchoCanyon · September 17, 2012 12:44PM

Mail fraud is a federal offense.

I would call the police in his town. A visit from guys in blue usually scare the crap out of people.

Did you insure it?

1954 · September 17, 2012 1:31PM

this actually happened to me about four years ago. Paypal refunded the money without even discussing what happened and it was my responsibility to prove to Paypal that I sent the package. When I provided them an insurance slip that I had purchased, they told me that I needed a tracking number. My issue was that the package was sent to China and for whatever reason I could not purchase the confirmation receipt or delivery confirmation. So I lost the $500 worth of cards and the $500 sale and the shipping costs just like you. Perhaps you will have more success with yours since this occured in the US. I refuse to give Paypal my money due to my experience.

Shane

grote15 · September 17, 2012 1:37PM

<< Mail fraud is a federal offense.

I would call the police in his town. A visit from guys in blue usually scare the crap out of people.

Did you insure it? >>

I would second that suggestion. It's really sad that we have dirtbags like that in this hobby. I hope you
get a fair resolution out of this.

vintagechris · September 17, 2012 1:39PM

I would call his station manager first thing in the morning and explain what happened. You would be surprised what these mail carriers can remember about packages sometime.

Coppercolor · September 18, 2012 1:15AM

Coppercolor · September 18, 2012 1:19AM

You may not get anywhere with the arguments about box weight. The scam buyer may have said it was stuffed with 50lbs of stock paper or something similar.

But in a slightly different situation I had a man holding my money and not delivering the agreed upon goods. He conveniently had health problems crop right up at the time of our transaction (which I learned later was faked).

In that situation, letting the scammer know the name of the local detective at his local police station, when we communicated, and the charges we were discussing.... made ALL the difference in the world.

The same might be true for you but i would up the ante to local detective and local postal inspector.

gameusedhoop · September 18, 2012 1:58AM

<< scam buyer may have said it was stuffed with 50lbs of stock paper or something similar >>

Buyer has already used the "empty box" claim with Paypal. A change in statement now would be a virtual admission of guilt.

Mickey71 · September 18, 2012 2:12AM

I'm a little confused on the insurance issue.............let's change the circumstances a little/////////sent bubble wrap envelope with a PSA card worth $300 and the seller uses insurance and signature confirmation..........the buyer gets the envelope and says the card is missing............that's it.........it's that easy. Why couldn't the seller just put in an insurance claim? What is insurance for?

itzagoner · September 18, 2012 2:36AM

<< 

<< scam buyer may have said it was stuffed with 50lbs of stock paper or something similar >>

Buyer has already used the "empty box" claim with Paypal. A change in statement now would be a virtual admission of guilt. >>

i think the implication is that the recipient would revert back to accusing the shipper/seller of stuffing a box full of paper and then it somehow opened up and fell out.

twice.

the suggestion that Postal inspectors from all hubs which handled the package(s) and subsequently forwarded them should be contacted is the best approach.

hopefully, an investigation has already begun.

EchoCanyon · September 18, 2012 2:45AM

With the amount of cards Rick Probstein sells, I wonder if he ever had something similar happen and how he resolved it.
Rick?

Coppercolor · September 18, 2012 3:19AM

<< 

<< scam buyer may have said it was stuffed with 50lbs of stock paper or something similar >>

Buyer has already used the "empty box" claim with Paypal. A change in statement now would be a virtual admission of guilt. >>

Is it possible semantics are leading us to a different conclusion. By "empty box" could he have meant the buyer claims the box was absent the valuables, instead of actually empty?

If the box was actually empty then it seems to me this becomes a Postal Service insurance claim for removed contents and surely THEN the postal inspector may find the motivation to get involved.

mrearlygold · September 18, 2012 3:47AM

Boy oh boy, just another reason to not take paypal.

mtcards · September 18, 2012 5:11AM

<< Why couldn't the seller just put in an insurance claim? What is insurance for? >>

For boosting the profit at the post office.....paying extra to guarantee that someone does their job you paid them to do.....yep its an American business

Garabaldi · September 18, 2012 5:54AM

<< It was a deal off of Ebay. Trust me, I will out this guy as soon as I can. In response to gameusedhoop, I sent the set in flat rate boxes so I don't think they were ever weighed. I am going to check again at my post office in the morning to see if I have any options. >>

I just checked my receipts for several flat rate Priority boxes and they do have the weights listed. They are all different and you should be able to prove that there were contents in the boxes. Especially if they were 45-50 lbs.

jimq112 · September 18, 2012 6:15AM

Whether they were delivered to a PO Box or delivered by a carrier, the person who delivered them will ABSOLUTELY remember them and will remember if they were heavy or empty. PM me the zip code where they were delivered, and I'll see if I can come up with some contact information. Call that office, and have them speak to either the carrier or the clerk that delivered them. The "delivered" scan will match to one person so it should be easy for them to find the right person.

Once that person verifies that they were heavy, you can advise your scammer that he can deal with postal fraud if he doesn't soon remember that the cards were there after all.

Mickey71 · September 18, 2012 6:20AM

Jim,
What happens if the boxes had been opened in transit and someone stole the cards. Can't he just file the insurance claim?

Mickey71

jeff8877 · September 18, 2012 6:21AM

jimq112,

Have not seen you around in a while...nice to have you back to help with these type of issues.

Jeff

Mickey71 · September 18, 2012 6:29AM

Also....nice to have you back Jim.

Mickey71

jimq112 · September 18, 2012 6:45AM

If somebody opened them in transit then yes he can file a claim. When stuff gets open or torn up it usually ends up with tape around it that says "received in damaged condition" or something similar.

I don't think I deliver one 50 pound package a month. They're easy to remember. If I delivered 2 of them to the same address, I would be sure to remember and I would be hoping they're not getting more!

bbuckner22 · September 18, 2012 7:37AM

To update everyone: yes the weight of the boxes were recorded by my post office. Both of the boxes were 45+ pounds when I dropped them off. They are going to try and check if the weight ever varied before delivery, they are not sure if they can track that or not. The next thing would be to see if the mail carrier remembers the boxes. Like Jim said, they will most likely recall that heavy of a box, I know my mail woman doesn't like it when I get cards back from PSA. I know these went thru the mail system without any issues. Like I wrote yesterday, who signs for a second box that is weightless the day after the first one shows up empty? Just a scammer.

CocoaBeachDodgers · September 18, 2012 8:14AM

This is a very agrivating story, I hope it turns out in the long run for you!

Back during my selling days, I had made many phone calls to PalPay trying to do some preventive maintance just to prevent this type of thing from happening. It was like pulling teeth trying to get a straight answer from them, at least for me.
As Ebay changed some of their policies, they seemed to favor the buyer more & more. That's understandable, if customers did not feel safe buying, than the volume would not be the way it is today. But you can't leave the seller out in the dark either! As a seller, there are so many fees between Ebay & Paypal, than postal fees, you have to try to cut corners without leaving yourself wide open, and you try to get the proper information, I know it's not easy.

Once again, good luck with this lousy situation.

Dennis88 · September 18, 2012 8:29AM

I posted a link to this thread on the U.S. coin forum as this is something all of us can potentially run into.

Link

Best of luck to the OP.

Dennis

Dpeck100 · September 18, 2012 8:39AM

My mailman Mike is the bomb!!!

I live in a condo and our mailbox requires a key so he leaves stuff that requires a signature and signs for me which is great.

He has met me many times out on his route to let me get packages that I am dying to receive.

In many cases he will even text me to let me know a few things were delivered.

I guarantee that if a box was in his truck for any customer on his route that weighed 45 pounds he would remember not only the package, the sender and the address it was going to.

If the mail carrier who delivered this package is half as good as Mike they will remember at a minimum the size and weight as I believe they load their own trucks and at a minimum had to pick it up out of the back to deliver.

I am confident that if you press this issue you will get some answers. There is no way that an empty box was received by your customer unless their was fraud along the way in which the culprit was the USPS and I do not believe that would be an issue.

If I were you not only would I speak immediately to the USPS in person but I would also let the buyer know you have filed a police report and that the USPS fully intends to assist you in recovery.

I would also let this jerk know that if he wants to come forward and admit he has received the cards you will drop your police report and call it a day but if not you fully intend to press charges for grand theft and mail fraud.

I think I speak for all parties on the board by saying we are pulling for you and good luck!

mygotta · September 19, 2012 1:06AM

I'm following this story as well and, as an eBay seller, I am hopeful it works out for you. It concerns me people do this, and, as the thread states, it seems its that easy. Just to say you got nothing and paypal believes it without any proof or logic to it is sad on PayPal's part.

Its a terrible incident and lots of work to rectify it. I hope this buyer gets what he deserves for this. Whether it be jail time or a good ole lynching or heavy fines. And in the end I hope you get your collection back.

stown · September 19, 2012 10:18AM

+1 for a Jim sighting

For those that don't know, Jim is good people.

hammered · September 19, 2012 2:24PM

I agree with Jim's suggestion - offer him the chance to "remember" that the cards were actually there and end his Ebay claim
Tell him that the PO has verified the weight and will be contacting the mail carrier in his area, and throw around the words 'mail fraud'

zep33 · September 20, 2012 1:35AM

Another +1 for Jim sighting

I really hope this works out for you man - good luck!!

DavidPuddy · September 20, 2012 1:51AM

<< Another +1 for Jim sighting

I really hope this works out for you man - good luck!! >>

This. Glad to see Jim back on here.

RonBurgundy · September 20, 2012 4:39AM

I know this has been mentioned before many times, but Dave is a good guy and I feel bad this has occurred. Thus, it's worth reiterating that you have to insure your stuff privately and make sure the policy includes shipping to a buyer. You cannot rely on postal insurance, Paypal, or honest buyers.

I had a buyer who lives less than 100 miles away claim he didn't receive a $150 card from me, he was refunded and I filed an insurance claim. Had a check within a month.

With the economy continuing to be poor, scammers are on the rise and are probably more aggressive than ever.

Hope it works out, Dave.

zep33 · September 21, 2012 5:40AM

Any updates?

bbuckner22 · September 21, 2012 6:42AM

No updates yet, my post office says hopefully they will have info or some kind of an answer by Monday.

Is it really that easy?

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