Somewhat new to Gold Dollar collecting - why so few in PCGS plastic?

BryceM · September 11, 2012 10:53AM

A fun project I've been working on lately is turning a bit of modern gold bullion I bought back at around $600 an ounce into a circulated-grade classic gold 12-piece type set. Conditions seemed right and the majority of the set was done without paying too much over the melt value I started with. The $3 gold and the three types of $1 gold were of course the exception. As usual, my hunt was for coins in PCGS holders.

I spent a good part of my time at the recent LB show looking for reasonable gold dollars. I picked up a type I easily enough from a Heritage auction and was pleased with its in-hand appearance. The type II was more difficult to locate. I think there were maybe 6 or 8 examples in circulated grades at the entire show. I finally bagged one before I headed home.

Surprising enough, finding an acceptable type III was the hardest of all. I saw maybe only one or two circulated examples at the show and nothing that interested me.

Looking around the bourse and looking at dealer inventory on the web, it seems 80% of the top-tier certified coins out there are holdered in non-PCGS plastic. With the exception of one or two series I'm still very much in the "learning the ropes" stage. Why is it that this particular series isn't represented well in PCGS plastic?

On Collector's Corner at the moment there are 28 G$1 of all types in AU58 grade. Only one is PCGS. What gives?

GeorgeKellogg · September 11, 2012 11:24AM

According to the PCGS pop report, 17,599 Type 1 gold dollars have been graded by PCGS, while the Type 2 and Type 3 PCGS populations are 7,404 and 20,296, respectively. The roll-up for all gold dollars is 45,299. Some of these are resubmissions, so the actual number is somewhat lower.

I don't know how these numbers compare with the population of gold dollars in NGC holders, but my gut feeling is that gold dollars in PCGS holders are "in more demand." Thus, they would be harder to find on the bourse floor.

RYK · September 11, 2012 12:30PM

Type IIIs are disproportionately found in uncirculated condition, especially the later dates, as they were unpopular for circulation and were primarily saved in high grade condition by dealers and collectors.

Doug Winter discusses this in a recent blog.

mozin · September 11, 2012 2:08PM

I gave up buying NGC gold dollars unless they are labeled prooflike. The PCGS gold dollars might cost a bit more, but they also sell for more money. Besides, only PCGS coins go into the PCGS Registry.

ambro51 · September 11, 2012 10:13PM

I personally don't think you're looking hard enough. Coin shows are lousy places to find superior esoteric coins. Grades on gold dollars are very erratic. I feel an AU 55 could be a MS61. The most important grading point on gold dollars is luster. Frankly, I'd take the plastic and grade given as secondary to the actual eye appeal and flash of the coin. Gold dollars worked hard up to the civil war and after that became almost non circulating. PS as a type coin for the type 3, search out an 1880. With only 1600 struck it sounds like a great rarity but it is not. Most of the mintage survives in MS and these coins are nearly proof like and struck from a nice die.

1880 gold dollar PCGS AU55

BillJones · September 11, 2012 10:37PM

Most of the circulated Type III gold dollars are dated from 1856 to 1861. After that the Civil War changed the circulation patterns on these coins, and many of the pieces will fall in the low lower to higher Mint State grades.

You might look for an 1861 gold dollar. It is a common date, and yet it was issued at the dawn of the Civil War which adds interest.

This one was graded by "the other guys" and it is an MS-62. I bought this at a local show for $460.00. The interesting part is that the dies are rotated almost to a "metal turn" not a "coin turn." That oddity is noted in Dave Bowers' gold dollar book.

ambro51 · September 11, 2012 10:55PM

Something very noticeable between my 1880 and Bills 1861.... This is the die erosion, possible rust pitting on the obverse, and the weaker reverse, which on the 61 was defiantly relapped. A high mintage issue as opposed to a very low mintage.

BillJones · September 11, 2012 11:10PM

Yes, the mintage for the 1861 gold dollar was 527,150 as opposed to 1,600 for the 1880. The mintages for all 1861 gold coins, except the Three Dollar Gold Piece, were high because it was at the beginning of the war. Almost everybody thought the war would be short, and the Union started out paying in gold. The ended pretty quickly. With high mintages you sometimes get sloppy work, and this piece with its rotated dies was also made with less than perfect dies.

The late date gold dollars from the late 1870s to 1889 had low mintages which resulted in many Proof-like coins with wonderful surfaces, like this 1881.

ambro51 · September 11, 2012 11:35PM

Not fully recognized as its own "type" the 1849 no L is different from regular type 1s in that the portrait bust is a higher relief and the reverse wreath does not extend as high.

magikbilly · September 11, 2012 11:58PM

"Frankly, I'd take the plastic and grade given as secondary to the actual eye appeal and flash of the coin." - Amnbro51

Good general advice too!

Eric

lordmarcovan · September 12, 2012 12:03AM

I'm just glad to hear somebody talking about gold dollars and find that the conversation is indeed about GOLD dollars, not "GOLDEN" dollars.

BillJones · September 12, 2012 12:24AM

<< Not fully recognized as its own "type" the 1849 no L is different from regular type 1s in that the portrait bust is a higher relief and the reverse wreath does not extend as high. >>

Yes, the 1849 "No L" gold dollar does make for an interesting addition to a gold dollar type set once you have the primary three types. As you can see the top of Ms. Liberty's crown and the placement of the stars is different on the "No L" type and the later design.

1849 "No L" - This comes with two reverse varieties. One of them developes a huge die break that runs all the way across the reverse.

And here is the regular type.

Now ... If you want a further challenge, look for the "No L" obverse type (higher relief head and star orientation) with the "L." I've been looking for that one for a few years, and have only found a couple of examples that were too cleaned up for my tastes.

ambro51 · September 12, 2012 12:47AM

Here's the no L I had .....which I really liked until JA looked at it in its anacs holder, told me it was polished and wouldn't cross. Sold it.

COALPORTER · September 12, 2012 1:20AM

Maybe most dealers don't have them, because
most dealers don't really care to buy them !?
Many dealers hate these !
These can be real tough to resell, so caution
if you plan to load up.- you better really
like them ! I advise not to collect these- u will
take a bath. One of the worst coins to concentrate on!

rawmorgan · September 12, 2012 3:00AM

<< Here's the no L I had .....which I really liked until JA looked at it in its anacs holder, told me it was polished and wouldn't cross. Sold it.

>>

What really draws my eye to this is the fantastic die crack on the reverse.

Sorry you felt you had to selling it.

Zoins · September 12, 2012 3:06AM

<< 

<< Here's the no L I had .....which I really liked until JA looked at it in its anacs holder, told me it was polished and wouldn't cross. Sold it.

<snip> >>

What really draws my eye to this is the fantastic die crack on the reverse.

Sorry you felt you had to selling it. >>

Sorry to hear it was polished.

BryceM · September 12, 2012 4:32AM

Well, thanks for all the responses, but I don't think I'm any closer to understanding why I could find 50 or 60 of these in NGC or ANACS slabs on the bourse but only a handful of PCGS coins.

"I personally don't think you're looking hard enough. Coin shows are lousy places to find superior esoteric coins. Grades on gold dollars are very erratic. I feel an AU 55 could be a MS61."

Obviously I haven't spent the last five years of my life looking. I'm just commenting on an observation I made at ONE show and ONE auction and what I've seen available on dealer's sites over the past 3 months or so. If I wanted to buy raw or in an NGC holder there were dozens and dozens of type I's and type III's to choose from at the LB show.

I like the coins that have been shown here, but again so far they've all been in ATS plastic.

"Many dealers hate these ! These can be real tough to resell, so caution if you plan to load up.- you better really like them ! I advise not to collect these- u will take a bath. One of the worst coins to concentrate on!"

Uh, I'm not sure how to respond to that. I thought it was pretty clear I was putting together a type set - not collecting a hundred of them. Clearly there are many people who like them just fine and I can think of plenty of things I'd be more worried about collecting than gold dollars.

So, I'm still left with my original question. I was wondering if PCGS and NGC's approach to grading these was fundamentally different (like with FBLs on Frankies). Sometimes there are perfectly good explanations to why a coin would be preferentially found in one TPG's holder over another. In this case, maybe it's just that they are a bit esoteric and those in PCGS aren't really flooding the market at the moment.

That is all.

mozin · September 12, 2012 7:10AM

I have five NGC Gold Dollars and one ANACS, all labeled MS PL. I only have four PCGS Gold Dollars, all high end AUs. Too bad PCGS does not give the PL to Gold Dollars.

My NGC Gold Dollar Registry Set

BillJones · September 12, 2012 7:16AM

<< Here's the no L I had .....which I really liked until JA looked at it in its anacs holder, told me it was polished and wouldn't cross. Sold it.

>>

I once owned a raw example of this in AU that was a later die state than that one. The break was solid, all the way across the reverse. I wish I had a picture of it.

I bought that coin fairly cheep at a small auction because some people thought it was a counterfiet because of the break. It wasn't. I sold it for a nice profit a few years later when I found the upgrade I posted earlier.

And yes there people who won't by gold dollars because they are too small. Some people won't buy raw ones because they are afraid of counterfeits. That is a good reason not to buy raw ones if you can't tell the difference.

I like gold dollars, but then again I like small coins. I've been a nut

for the early half dimes for many years. Some people have told me they "hate those little things" because of their size.

Oh well !!

GeorgeKellogg · September 12, 2012 7:32AM

<< Well, thanks for all the responses, but I don't think I'm any closer to understanding why I could find 50 or 60 of these in NGC or ANACS slabs on the bourse but only a handful of PCGS coins.

I like the coins that have been shown here, but again so far they've all been in ATS plastic.

So, I'm still left with my original question. I was wondering if PCGS and NGC's approach to grading these was fundamentally different (like with FBLs on Frankies). Sometimes there are perfectly good explanations to why a coin would be preferentially found in one TPG's holder over another. In this case, maybe it's just that they are a bit esoteric and those in PCGS aren't really flooding the market at the moment.

That is all. >>

OK, here are some Dahlonega gold dollars in PCGS holders. I don't own any in ATS holders. The photos are courtesy of BluCC Photos and PCGS TrueView.

BryceM · September 12, 2012 7:53AM

Very Cool!

lordmarcovan · September 12, 2012 8:34AM

LOVE the toning on that last... the 1859-D

BillJones · September 12, 2012 10:28PM

Here is an 1857-C gold dollat that I purchased recently. This is a PCGS EF-45 coin.

The 1857-C and its sister, the 1859-C, are perhaps the worst coins the U.S. mint system ever produced. The planchets were poorly made and the dies were not properly prepared before they were put into the press. This coin is actually "attractive" for the issue.

I've posted two views of this because I can't capture exactly how this coin looks "in hand." The second picture is closer to the true look.

This coin does have a grayish look to it although it is not as extreme as this. The gold also has a richer color than what you see here.

Priller · September 12, 2012 10:38PM

Adding another C example to the mix.

This is a PCGS AU53 CAC.

Somewhat new to Gold Dollar collecting - why so few in PCGS plastic?

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